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Bombs are not working as they should!

By Drachenschwein#3403 - MEMBER - December 11, 2021, 10:57:06
AnkaTracker

Hi everyone! 

In my build, i try to make use of Dynamite passive! 

The issue i have:

If i place a bomb and destroy it (by casting spells on it) it gets +10lvl! so far so good!

But if i place several bombs and again destroy them in a AoE attack only one bomb gets the lvl10 bonus, the others do not!

This should not be the case? Why would it only work for 1 Bomb? If bombs get destroyed not by detonating it with badabang or detonation, they should get 10lvls!

 

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First Ankama intervention

I confirm it's the intended behavior.

Let's put it this way : If a bomb is killed by a damaging attack, it gains 10 combo, then detonates.
The 10 combo is then, of course, shared between the exploding bombs (2 bombs with 10 combo each = they detonate and deal each the damage of one 20 combo bomb).

By the way, each damage triggered by a dynamite explosion actually is indirect damage, whereas Detonation (wheter it's Rouge's or Boombot's) and Badabang deal direct damage.

See message in context
Reactions 28
Score : 4900

I believe that's intended. Because the destroying one bomb triggers additional explosions of bombs.

One bomb is actually destroyed in this instance. That bomb triggers the other bombs to explode, so the condition isn't completed. Which is why you don't see the bombs additional damage occur. You could however position bomb to be 2 cells away from each other and AOE them, you'll get the results you're looking for.

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No this is can not be intended! This would make the whole passive obsolete and it clearly states that if they are destroyed it gains 10 Combo before exploding! Why would this rule apply only to one bomb?

For example:

I place all 3 bombs around a target and destroy it with an area attack! All 3 bombs get the damage from that attack first and are being destroyed! Now all Bombs destroyed this way should get the bonus from Dynamite but instead ... and this is random, the game decides which bomb gets the 10 lvls from dynamite .. and the other just don't!

They just need to fix this bug, so bombs get the bonus accordingly before exploding!

So right now Dynamite bombers have only 1/3 of the damage? You can not play this .. even with over 4k mastery you would not even scratch the damage of a Sadida!


 

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Score : 4628

 

Schweinedrache#1906|2021-12-11 18:07:02
No this is can not be intended! This would make the whole passive obsolete and it clearly states that if they are destroyed it gains 10 Combo before exploding! Why would this rule apply only to one bomb?

For example:

I place all 3 bombs around a target and destroy it with an area attack! All 3 bombs get the damage from that attack first and are being destroyed! Now all Bombs destroyed this way should get the bonus from Dynamite but instead ... and this is random, the game decides which bomb gets the 10 lvls from dynamite .. and the other just don't!

They just need to fix this bug, so bombs get the bonus accordingly before exploding!

So right now Dynamite bombers have only 1/3 of the damage? You can not play this .. even with over 4k mastery you would not even scratch the damage of a Sadida!


 

That's because if a bomb explodes, it triggers all others bombs in it's AoE in a chain reaction, which combines the combo of all the bombs of the same element, so yes all bombs of the same element that go off in the chain get the +10 combo, but you can't stack it by killing multiple bombs at once
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Yes and that is where the error happens obviously!
The bomb was never triggered in the first place .. it was destroyed by damage and should get the Bonus from Dynamite!

Dynamite is not meant to work like a normal bomb explosion works with detonation/badabang, it should just make them explode each with the +10 combo level from dynamite and nothing else.

It is clearly a bug that it starts detonation/badabang mechanic!
Dynamite has nothing to do with how detonation/badabang works, it's a different mechanic and all it should do is make them explode with the bonus.

Again it clearly states if Bomb gets destroyed it goes BOOM with a +10 lvl bonus!
And it fails to do so if there is more than 1 bomb. 
 

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Score : 3899

What Scheweinedrache is basically saying is that Dynamite, by it's description alone, should give +10 combo however it dies, detonation or badabang or trigger by other bombs or being destroyed by AoE attacks or being destroyed by Boss Archetype. Why should the source of how it's destroyed matter?

Whether the developers intentionally reduce it's potency by additional restrictions is another matter. At the very least if you intend to do so then write it in the passive's description so that people know and don't have to guess whether it's a bug or not.would save them the trouble getting all these bug reports to address to in the first place

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I do think this is intended too.

When u hit multiple bombs with AOE skill, the first bomb (usually nearest bomb to you) to be destroyed will get Dynamite bonus, and it will then trigger the rest of the bombs to explode**.

**Explosion triggered by another bomb's explosion (aka normal explosion) does not count.

This is just how Wakfu calculates its damage. You gotta destroy bombs one by one if you want to proc Dynamite multiple times in a turn.

Otherwise it's going to be way too OP. 
Come on..
But.... if this is really a bug, I will welcome the fix with open arms of course. cool

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Score : 555

I need to elaborate on this a little more!

Detonation/Badabang is a spell and in its description it says:
Detonation can be used to make the targeted bomb explode along with the other bomb in its blast radius, in a chain reaction. Or to make all the bombs near a target explode on the target.

So all the time you are explaining how detonation/badabang works and telling me it's how bombs work, but that's not true! It's how Detonation/Badabang, a spell works!

So yes there is a difference between destroying a bomb or setting it off with a spell (detonation/badabang)!

@Sycowellmaster
Destroying bombs one by one can not be the idea behind Dynamite bomber and all the others passives that go with it, where your goal is to destroy bombs every round!

And you said it would be OP, but that is not true at all!

on potato 80% (level 215) (4273 Mastery) 
Fire bomb lvl 1 = 1791 damage
Earth bomb lvl 1 = 1590 damage
Air bomb lvl 1 = 1087 damage

which is 9 AP total damage of 4 468 damage.
If all bombs would get the +lvl 10 combo it would result in 8936 damage. 

So even if all bombs would get the bonus correctly it's still half the damage my Iop does on turn 1 with 10AP!
Now i get that it is AoE and that it needs to be weaker then single target and thats fine. 
So maybe my support melee/aoe osamodas is a better comparison.
My support melee/aoe osa does over 12000 damage!

So even if all bombs get the Bonus the damage is miles away from OP! But at least it would be playable with about 10k total damage a turn!

So come one, what would be OP about it if it does not even scratch the damage of a support?

Fixing this bug would only make it playable but the damage would be still less than most other characters! 


 

 

cody5#2705|2021-12-12 21:23:15
That's because the combo summing only works across bombs of the same element, if you put down 3 fire bombs then kill one of them, they will all get the +10 combo from dynamite.

But if you put down 3 bombs of diferent element, they will trigger eachother, but the combo isn't summed up





Really, again? Well maybe I did not get my point across, so I will do my best and try again!

Dynamite is a passive and in its description it says:
Bombs explode (with area of effect) if they are destroyed!
If a bomb explodes in this way, it gains 10 Combo before exploding!

The Bug (error) whatever you wanna call it, that I want to point out is that Dynamite tries to combo with other bombs! This is wrong and it should not be this way! There is no logical reason why it should be this way! In the state it is right now, it renders Dynamite builds useless! 

I  will use my own build as an example for this:

My build is area/distance:
4273 Mastery
33% damage inflicted
80% crit chance
20847 HP
13 AP / 5 MP / 8 WP


These are the 4 core passives that I use:

Scope: to convert damage from bombs to distance
Dynamite: which makes my bombs explode and give them combo lvl
Evolved Gadgets: which gives me 30% damage inflicted on a critical hit, which is important because I need to be able to destroy my bombs!
Explobomb: gives me 10% crit and 5% damage inflicted on a critical hit, which lasts 2 turns

The way it is played is that you summon up to 3 Bombs if possible and destroy them with area attack! Many times it will not be possible to detonate any bombs because allies are in the way, you got mp/ap raped or whatever .. so many things that can happen!

If this happens you should still have the buff from Explobomb (lasts 2 turns), which means ok damage on your crits, so we can boomerang, carbine or whatever to compensate for not being able to make a bomb play!

Here the damage example:

on potato 80% (level 215) (4273 Mastery) 
4 AP - Fire bomb lvl 1 = 1791 damage
3 AP - Earth bomb lvl 1 = 1590 damage
2 AP - Air bomb lvl 1 = 1087 damage

So 9 AP to place 3 bombs that do a total of  4 468 damage which is nothing!
That is why Dynamite exists! I should be able to destroy my bombs and get the damage accordingly!

The usual turn with 13 AP would be:

Fire bomb 4 AP + Earth bomb 3 AP + Air bomb 2 AP + Sticky Bomb 2 AP + Pulsar 2 AP

because of the short none modifiable range from Air bomb you will play it like this:

Fire bomb 4 AP + Eeath bomb 3 AP + Sticky bomb 2 AP + Boomerang or Blunderbuss

if your damage is too weak to destroy bombs with 1 spell you have to use 6 AP to make them explode (Blunderbuss / Boomerang + Pulsar)!

there are many different combinations you can play in one turn to do damage, which is fun and good!

But right now with Dynamite not working, your damage is not even that of a none damage dealer!
The best comparison I can give you is my Osamodas which is my buffer/heal that is also area damage!

My Osamodas does over 12k damage on turn 1 and I did not even include the damage from the summon!

If Dynamite would work correctly, area/distance would be playable! It would normalize the damage! There is more to the rogue than the single/target boom build!
 
Also there is no reason why Dynamite should combo with other bombs! If it gets destroyed by damage it should get +10lvl to make it worth placing it in the first place.
Dynamite should never ever combo with other bombs! Why should it do that? You can not utilize it in the first place,  because of Evolved Gadgets (-2 combo a turn), Explobomb (-5 max combo) and other passives!

Rogue builds that play around with bomb combos do not use these passives anyways! Dynamite is also useless to them! These passives exist for other builds than single target boom bomber!

Again fixing this error would normalize the damage and nothing else! So please stop explaining to me how bomb combos work it's ridiculous!  

 
cody5#2705|2021-12-12 21:26:41
Actually AoE spels don't deal damage to all targets at the same time, so when the spell kills one of the bombs, that triggers an explosion before the AoE spell finishes, which also triggers other bombs near it.
If you space out the bombs so they can't trigger eachother, killing all of them with 1 AoE will give the dynamite bonus to all of them (but won't sum their combo if they are of the same element)
 





Same thing! Does not matter if it gets destroyed by the area spell or by the damage from dynamite!
Dynamite should not combo! this here is a passive!
Detonation/Badabang should combo! this here is a spell!
 

 
cody5#2705|2021-12-12 21:23:15
That's because the combo summing only works across bombs of the same element, if you put down 3 fire bombs then kill one of them, they will all get the +10 combo from dynamite.

But if you put down 3 bombs of diferent element, they will trigger eachother, but the combo isn't summed up



Detonation/Badabang is a spell and in its description it says:
Detonation can be used to make the targeted bomb explode along with the other bomb in its blast radius, in a chain reaction. Or to make all the bombs near a target explode on the target.

Detonation/badabang does combo with bombs, it says so in the SPELL description! This is not a passive that is universal for bombs! Why should Dynamite combo if the description does not even say so! I do not cast detonation/badabang, there is no reason for bombs to combo at all! 

You can only summon 1 bomb each element a turn! No rogue bomber that focuses on combos can utilize dynamite! It would not make sense!
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That's because the combo summing only works across bombs of the same element, if you put down 3 fire bombs then kill one of them, they will all get the +10 combo from dynamite.

But if you put down 3 bombs of diferent element, they will trigger eachother, but the combo isn't summed up

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Score : 1056

If you're talking about 1st turn, I would say Rogue currently deals decent damage, as crit Rogue gets stronger in subsequent turns with Explobomb & Wakfu Connection passives.

Certain classes are not meant to deal burst damage in turn 1, eg. Fogger.

At this rate, can't we just summon @Siu to clarify this once and for all????



----

My only problem with Rogue is his subsequent turns' damage for crit build, albeit getting buffs from passives, is still lackluster compared with other classes of same nature. 
Something is just off,  considering his base damage and %damage from passives is quite a lot.
(for instance, +30% damage from Evolved Gadget alone. That looks so good on paper but somehow in reality, it just does not cut it.)

So you know what?
Guess I'm all in with this thread. I do want Dynamite to work on all destroyed bombs too.

 

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Score : 1025

I use Dynamite passive on my Rogue, and I can say the confusion arises from the:

Schweinedrache#1906|2021-12-12 09:24:09

Dynamite is a passive and in its description it says:
Bombs explode (with area of effect) if they are destroyed!
If a bomb explodes in this way, it gains 10 Combo before exploding!
 
Same thing! Does not matter if it gets destroyed by the area spell or by the damage from dynamite!
Dynamite should not combo! this here is a passive!
Detonation/Badabang should combo! this here is a spell!
 
 

When a bomb is normally destroyed by damage, it goes poof, and nothing happens. When you have Dynamite passive, bomb gets +10 combo and detonates. This is the key difference, as when a bomb detonates, it chain triggers all other bombs you own in the explosion area. Those other bombs were triggered, not destroyed, which is why they don't get the +10 combo bonus from Dynamite.

As for AoE damage to multiple bombs, that damage is not applied to all targets at the same time, it's applied sequentialy. And any effects that happen when a target dies from the damage are processed before the damage is applied to next target in the damage zone.
Which is why when the first bomb is destroyed by damage, it gets +10 combo bonus, and detonates. That detonation is processed next, which triggers all other bombs in zone. Once all that is done, remaining targets receive damage from AoE attack, but all the bombs are long gone by now.
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Dynamite is a passive and in its description it says:
Bombs explode (with area of effect) if they are destroyed!
If a bomb explodes in this way, it gains 10 Combo before exploding!

It does not say it will detonate, it says it will explode and gain 10 combo before exploding.

Detonation/Badabang is a spell and in its description it says:
Detonation can be used to make the targeted bomb explode along with the other bomb in its blast radius, in a chain reaction. Or to make all the bombs near a target explode on the target.
Triggers the Bomb (are-of-effect explosion)
Detonates the Bomb near the Target (targeted explosion)

The key difference is one is passive and the other one is a spell!

In the above post, i explained in length why I am certain that this is not intended!
Fixing this would not cribble any existing rogue build or make any build with it outrages strong!

But at least some other bomb builds then single target boomer would work!

If you really think Dynamite works like intended, could provide us with some math or why any rogue build would use it the way works right now!






 

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Score : 1056

 



It is a characteristic of a bomb to trigger other bombs to explode when it "explodes in AOE".
Nothing to do with Detonation/badabang.

So when you destroy a bomb with Dynamite–causing it to "explode in AOE"– the bomb chain
explodes the other bombs immediately before your skill actually hits the latter.

 
Schweinedrache#1906|2021-12-13 17:31:43
Yes that is why I said it is important that Dynamite is a Passive and Detonations is a spell!

A passive alters the behaviour/characteristic of a spell! Like Evolved Gadgets that alters bombs combo from +5 to +3 per turn!

Dynamite also alters the characteristic just like Evolved Gadget! Dynamite alters the bomb spells and has nothing to do with detonation/badabang!

I am convinced it does not work like intended! And I am sure I explained in length why I believe this. 

 


Dynamite basically means that only the bomb YOU or any entity "destroy" gains the +10 combo and it will then "explode with AOE damage".
It does not explicitly mention that it will disable the bomb's universal characteristics of chain-explosion when it explodes with AOE damage. (In most cases when passives disable certain effects, it's clearly stated in the description.)

Spoiler (click here to show spoiler)

You said that a passive alters the behaviour/characteristic of a spell. You're right. Kind of. But in programming language, we're looking at "disable/remove" in order for Dynamite to work as you want it to be.


note: Destroy =/= explode. 

And since your skill did not even get the chance to "destroy" the other bombs because the bomb's universal characteristic comes first, that's why it is like this.

I am sure most of us have taken our time to try explaining the damage calculation to you too.

Another thing to point out is,
you seem to over-estimate our devs' capabilities in being literal and precise with their spell descriptions. I agree there is room for improvement here biggrin
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Score : 555

Yes that is why I said it is important that Dynamite is a Passive and Detonations is a spell!

A passive alters the behaviour/characteristic of a spell! Like Evolved Gadgets that alters bombs combo from +5 to +3 per turn!

Dynamite also alters the characteristic just like Evolved Gadget! Dynamite alters the bomb spells and has nothing to do with detonation/badabang!

I am convinced it does not work like intended! And I am sure I explained in length why I believe this. 

However, if you have Dynamite passive active you should still be able to combo with bombs if you use the detonation/badabang spell because detonation/badabang explicitly states that it would combo! 

The way it works right now makes Dynamite obsolete because you will barely notice any change to your damage! I provided the damage numbers above! Dynamite is one of the key passives that would allow different builds with the rogue!

Fixing this would not cribble any existing rogue build or make any build with it outrages strong! 




 

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Score : 4628

 

Schweinedrache#1906|2021-12-13 17:31:43
Yes that is why I said it is important that Dynamite is a Passive and Detonations is a spell!

A passive alters the behaviour/characteristic of a spell! Like Evolved Gadgets that alters bombs combo from +5 to +3 per turn!

Dynamite also alters the characteristic just like Evolved Gadget! Dynamite alters the bomb spells and has nothing to do with detonation/badabang!

I am convinced it does not work like intended! And I am sure I explained in length why I believe this. 

However, if you have Dynamite passive active you should still be able to combo with bombs if you use the detonation/badabang spell because detonation/badabang explicitly states that it would combo! 

The way it works right now makes Dynamite obsolete because you will barely notice any change to your damage! I provided the damage numbers above! Dynamite is one of the key passives that would allow different builds with the rogue!

Fixing this would not cribble any existing rogue build or make any build with it outrages strong! 




 


To clarify
Detonation: makes bombs explode
Badabang: makes bombs explode, bonus damage to all bombs in the chain (regardless of element)
Dynamite: if a bomb is killed, it gains 10 combo, then explodes

Explosion: bomb deals damage in AoE, and Chains all other bombs in it's AoE. All bombs of the same element in the Chain get their combo added up before they explode (eve backwards in the chain)
 
So if you do an AoE on bombs, once the AoE kills the first one, it will trigger dynamite, giving it 10 combo and making it explode.
If the bomb has other bombs in it's AoE it starts a chain (before the AoE has a chance to kill the other bombs), this will share it's combo between all other bombs of the same elment (so they will all get the +10 from dynamite).
If the bombs are not within eachother's AoE, they will all die separately and each trigger the dynamite effect, exploding with +10 combo each regardless of the element, as they did not Chain
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Schweinedrache#1906|2021-12-13 16:53:36
Dynamite is a passive and in its description it says:
Bombs explode (with area of effect) if they are destroyed!
If a bomb explodes in this way, it gains 10 Combo before exploding!

It does not say it will detonate, it says it will explode and gain 10 combo before exploding.
 

Bombs don't explode unless detonated. What Dynamite does, is gives the bombs the ability to detonate themselves upon death (having 0 or less HP).

If a bomb explodes in this way, it gains 10 Combo before exploding!
And as you typed here, it'll gain +10 combo only if it explodes from being destroyed. When it explodes, the innate ability of bombs is to cause all other bombs in area of effect to explode as well. Those bombs weren't destroyed, they were detonated.

Just because there is a spell (technically it's a class ability, as spells are elemental) called Detonation, it's just figure of speech that is also causes the effect of detonation. Which can be applied by several means (Detonation, Badabang or a bomb with Dynamite passive being destroyed).

The developer took the shortcut and instead of making a different effect, used the existing one which is now applied by passive instead of an active ability.


If Dynamite actually worked the way you want it to work, no bomb would ever explode with less than 10 combo making them super OP.
 
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Score : 555

on potato 80% (level 215) (4273 Mastery) 
Fire bomb lvl 1 = 1791 damage
Earth bomb lvl 1 = 1590 damage
Air bomb lvl 1 = 1087 damage

which is 9 AP total damage of 4 468 damage.
If all bombs would get the +lvl 10 combo it would result in 8936 damage.

If I compare this damage with my other characters which are also fully geared, sublimated and runed!

8936 damage is not even half the damage my Iop does.
8936 damage is 3000 damage less than my support Osamodas!

I already have given this example in the post above! I explained why it would only normalize the damage and not make it OP! It would make it viable that's all!

Look if you make an extraordinary claim that it would be OP then you should have extraordinary proof that this is true. But just saying OP OP OP OP does not help and is not even true!

 

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I confirm it's the intended behavior.

Let's put it this way : If a bomb is killed by a damaging attack, it gains 10 combo, then detonates.
The 10 combo is then, of course, shared between the exploding bombs (2 bombs with 10 combo each = they detonate and deal each the damage of one 20 combo bomb).

By the way, each damage triggered by a dynamite explosion actually is indirect damage, whereas Detonation (wheter it's Rouge's or Boombot's) and Badabang deal direct damage.

Score : 1025

 

[Siu]|2021-12-13 22:41:39
By the way, each damage triggered by a dynamite explosion actually is indirect damage, whereas Detonation (wheter it's Rouge's or Boombot's) and Badabang deal direct damage.
 

Can you define direct and indirect damage better? The current definition says direct damage is all damage that's caused directly by the spell used. Detonation/Badabang don't deal damage at all, neither do the spells that summon bombs. While using Detonation to explode a bomb can be considered a direct action, thus doing direct damage. The spell Detonation itself, if used on an area without bombs doesn't do anything, any damage that it may cause comes from bombs exploding, which is inherently indirect.

Compared to other mechanisms that activly participate in turn order, for example Sinistros. Bombs are completely passive and can't detonate themselves on their own volition to do direct damage.
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It's your spell detonating the bombs, so it's part of your spell, as oposed to dynamite that triggers when bombs are killed for any reason. Also it would be way too strong if it was always indirect.

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Score : 555

 

[Siu]|2021-12-13 22:41:39
I confirm it's the intended behavior.

Let's put it this way : If a bomb is killed by a damaging attack, it gains 10 combo, then detonates.
The 10 combo is then, of course, shared between the exploding bombs (2 bombs with 10 combo each = they detonate and deal each the damage of one 20 combo bomb).

By the way, each damage triggered by a dynamite explosion actually is indirect damage, whereas Detonation (wheter it's Rouge's or Boombot's) and Badabang deal direct damage.


All stuff I already knew! 

I knew that explosion from Dynamite get boosted by indirect damage as well as sticky bomb!
Also how bombs of the same element combo with each other!

By the way, the damage numbers I presented in the above post actually is with (30% increased indirect damage from 2 ruin III sublimation)

----

What I really wanna know is: 

Why does Dynamite combo with other bombs in the first place when it does not support this playstyle at all! Sketchy spell description aside!

If so, please let me know what the general idea was because it's obviously not possible to utilize it in any way that would make any impact!  

Every class has passives that let them play different roles / styles! 
For example, the fecah can be played as protector or as a tank and you can never do both at the same time!
The devs made sure of it by placing a malus on certain passives that counter each other out!
This is true for almost all classes except the ones that had no revamp in many years! 

The same goes for the rogue!

For Example, Explobomb is a counter to Bomber Fan! (one gives +5 to max combo and one reduces max combo by 5)

Certain key passives that change the behaviour of "spells/mechanics" allow certain ways to play and that is a good thing!

I thought Dynamite's goal was to let the rogue be played in a more direct manner that would still allow him to use his signature spells (class spells "bombs")! To use your bombs in other means than placing them in a corner and waiting for a few turns to detonate them! 
  
But for the rogue, any build that does not make use of combo stacking of bombs is absolute lacklustre up to simply not playable at all! 

I spent so many hours, days, weeks trying to make anything else work, but it never does!
What are all these passives for, if not a single thing is viable? And I am not talking about it in a competitive manner to other classes... I mean viable in general so that it matters if I am in the group or not!

We have scope passive that lets us play at a distance and the main theme of the rogue are bombs (area damage) and yet there is not a single viable distance/area build!
The thing that really keeps them from being playable is Dynamite and the way it works, which I still think is not intended because it does not support any playstyle!

Everyone is so hellbent to explain bombs combo when I pointed out that Dynamite should not do this. I tested it and backed it up with damage numbers, the sketchy description of Dynamite of course strengthened my belief that this is wrong but it is not just the sketchy description!

Not a single one of you could provide me with an answer to why it should work the way it does right now or why it's important that it works this way!

 
Bluhen#6777|2021-12-14 15:47:57
Dynamite is a fantastic passive designed for a more offensive playstyle through shots and daggers. It saves you some turns of combo stacking and is a good bait for Melee enemies, it needs to be paired with Explobomb though to shine.

You can also combine it with Escapist and bam, your destroyed bombs get q4 combo before exploding, something that you usually would need to wait 2-3 turns to get.
 


The only thing that makes sense to me in your whole post is that Dynamite would be by design a good passive that would allow a different offensive playstyle.

What do you mean by bam? Is it used as an expression or is it a nickname for a skill?
Escapist switches place with the last bomb you cast, at the end of your turn!

q4combo? what is a q4combo? 
And no you can not use Dynamite for combo building! like you said it's used in combination with Explobomb and other passives that do not support combo playstyle! So no .. you can not utilize Dynamite for stacking combos on bombs more efficiently!

Your post makes barely any sense! Would you mind and explaining it a little more, so I can understand?
 

 
Bluhen#6777|2021-12-14 15:47:57

It also can be fit on a dedicated bomber build since you can combine it with Escapist to get +14 combo on your destroyed bombs on t1 and onwards, something that you usually would need to wait 2-3 turns to achieve.

You are talking about Fugitive passive that gives +4 combo when placing a bomb (it also comes with -20% damage)!

No dedicated bomber build wants his bombs destroyed prematurely!

Most dedicated bomber builds do not play with Fugitive because it cribbles their damage if the bombs reach max level combo.

Fugitive is mostly used on bombers that want their damage on turn 2!

Look at bombs AP/Damage ratio! You will see, that as soon as a bomb hits lvl 10 it starts to get acceptable! Good damage from bombs comes only if it combos with other bombs of the same element! 

And no .. it does not take anyone 2-3 turns to achieve this damage!
You really wanna compare the damage from a single lvl 14 bomb with damage from a dedicated bomber on turn 2 or 3? or the damage any other class could dish out?

You must be joking!





 
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Dynamite is a fantastic passive designed for a more offensive playstyle through shots and daggers. It saves you some turns of combo stacking and is a good bait for Melee enemies, it needs to be paired with Explobomb though to shine.

It also can be fit on a dedicated bomber build since you can combine it with Escapist to get +14 combo on your destroyed bombs on t1 and onwards, something that you usually would need to wait 2-3 turns to achieve.

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Score : 12266

 

Schweinedrache#1906|2021-12-14 15:14:56
 
[Siu]|2021-12-13 22:41:39
I confirm it's the intended behavior.

Let's put it this way : If a bomb is killed by a damaging attack, it gains 10 combo, then detonates.
The 10 combo is then, of course, shared between the exploding bombs (2 bombs with 10 combo each = they detonate and deal each the damage of one 20 combo bomb).

By the way, each damage triggered by a dynamite explosion actually is indirect damage, whereas Detonation (wheter it's Rouge's or Boombot's) and Badabang deal direct damage.






All stuff I already knew! 

I knew that explosion from Dynamite get boosted by indirect damage as well as sticky bomb!
Also how bombs of the same element combo with each other!

By the way, the damage numbers I presented in the above post actually is with (30% increased indirect damage from 2 ruin III sublimation)

----

What I really wanna know is: 

Why does Dynamite combo with other bombs in the first place when it does not support this playstyle at all! Sketchy spell description aside!

If so, please let me know what the general idea was because it's obviously not possible to utilize it in any way that would make any impact!  

Every class has passives that let them play different roles / styles! 
For example, the fecah can be played as protector or as a tank and you can never do both at the same time!
The devs made sure of it by placing a malus on certain passives that counter each other out!
This is true for almost all classes except the ones that had no revamp in many years! 

The same goes for the rogue!

For Example, Explobomb is a counter to Bomber Fan! (one gives +5 to max combo and one reduces max combo by 5)

Certain key passives that change the behaviour of "spells/mechanics" allow certain ways to play and that is a good thing!

I thought Dynamite's goal was to let the rogue be played in a more direct manner that would still allow him to use his signature spells (class spells "bombs")! To use your bombs in other means than placing them in a corner and waiting for a few turns to detonate them! 
  
But for the rogue, any build that does not make use of combo stacking of bombs is absolute lacklustre up to simply not playable at all! 

I spent so many hours, days, weeks trying to make anything else work, but it never does!
What are all these passives for, if not a single thing is viable? And I am not talking about it in a competitive manner to other classes... I mean viable in general so that it matters if I am in the group or not!

We have scope passive that lets us play at a distance and the main theme of the rogue are bombs (area damage) and yet there is not a single viable distance/area build!
The thing that really keeps them from being playable is Dynamite and the way it works, which I still think is not intended because it does not support any playstyle!

Everyone is so hellbent to explain bombs combo when I pointed out that Dynamite should not do this. I tested it and backed it up with damage numbers, the sketchy description of Dynamite of course strengthened my belief that this is wrong but it is not just the sketchy description!

Not a single one of you could provide me with an answer to why it should work the way it does right now or why it's important that it works this way!

 
Bluhen#6777|2021-12-14 15:47:57
Dynamite is a fantastic passive designed for a more offensive playstyle through shots and daggers. It saves you some turns of combo stacking and is a good bait for Melee enemies, it needs to be paired with Explobomb though to shine.

You can also combine it with Escapist and bam, your destroyed bombs get q4 combo before exploding, something that you usually would need to wait 2-3 turns to get.
 






The only thing that makes sense to me in your whole post is that Dynamite would be by design a good passive that would allow a different offensive playstyle.

What do you mean by bam? Is it used as an expression or is it a nickname for a skill?
Escapist switches place with the last bomb you cast, at the end of your turn!

q4combo? what is a q4combo? 
And no you can not use Dynamite for combo building! like you said it's used in combination with Explobomb and other passives that do not support combo playstyle! So no .. you can not utilize Dynamite for stacking combos on bombs more efficiently!

Your post makes barely any sense! Would you mind and explaining it a little more, so I can understand?
 

 
Bluhen#6777|2021-12-14 15:47:57

It also can be fit on a dedicated bomber build since you can combine it with Escapist to get +14 combo on your destroyed bombs on t1 and onwards, something that you usually would need to wait 2-3 turns to achieve.





You are talking about Fugitive passive that gives +4 combo when placing a bomb (it also comes with -20% damage)!

No dedicated bomber build wants his bombs destroyed prematurely!

Most dedicated bomber builds do not play with Fugitive because it cribbles their damage if the bombs reach max level combo.

Fugitive is mostly used on bombers that want their damage on turn 2!

Look at bombs AP/Damage ratio! You will see, that as soon as a bomb hits lvl 10 it starts to get acceptable! Good damage from bombs comes only if it combos with other bombs of the same element! 

And no .. it does not take anyone 2-3 turns to achieve this damage!
You really wanna compare the damage from a single lvl 14 bomb with damage from a dedicated bomber on turn 2 or 3? or the damage any other class could dish out?

You must be joking!





 




If you re-read my argument you'll notice that I never talked about damage, I'm talking about strategies around those passives and how they can decrease the number of turns it takes to charge your bombs.

Dynamite allows you to deal passive indirect damage, reach high levels of combo earlier and play more actively on battles thanks to it's synergy with Explobomb,. There are battles where you just don't have enough time to overload your bombs, they are too exposed or the fight just doesn't take too long to finish, in those cases you might want to explode your bombs earlier to keep up with your party (something that's been an issue for the class for some time but is currently being fixed over the patches), Dynamite is specially useful on Moon Island against Nyl Rippers who 99% of the time will teleport the bombs around them and explode them or against the Stalagmotel's boss where it is pretty much impossible to keep your bombs alive every turn and you can take advantage of the damage the boss deals at the start of the turn. It CAN fit on a bomber build, it depends on the situation although, as I tried to say, it fits more a hybrid playstyle, but it can still be used without Explobomb.

On the other hand, Fugitive gives you a free 20% damage boost on your non-maxed combo bombs, early powder walls and more mobility, how is it not a bomber spell? It literally debuffs your direct damage for the sake of your bombs as long as you detonate them a little bit earlier. 

I'm defending their viability in battle and how they can improve your playstyle and even give you more ways to play around your Rogue.  I don't really understand what you are annoyed about, maybe you need to try them more.
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Score : 555

I re-read your argument as you suggested, which was very confusing to me in the first place!

Almost everything can be called a strategy but that does not mean it is viable by any means unless you can back it up with for example damage numbers! 

I never claimed Fugitive to be completely useless! I pointed out that it is used on 2 turn - bomber builds, which is a thing I tried myself including firewall!

What I meant with the dedicated bomber build is the 3 turn - bomber build, which out damages everything else of course because it is super hard to pull off.

That certain passives, skills, classes are favoured on certain content is a given, but that alone does not justify anything.

You are saying that you are defending their viability in battle! I got no problem with that as long as you can back it up with some data that supports that claim other than just saying it's a strategy!

I am all for build diversity and passives that let characters be played in different ways! 

Well, I was "annoyed" that we rogues have many cool passives but most of them are underperforming or do not work in a manner that would make an impact.

Dynamite is one passive that would let us play the rogue in another way than single target bomber! But not the way it is right now, the impact it has on the battlefield is dispensable.

So of course I will keep trying!    smile kiss

 P.S.: i have a feeling you took the "you must joking!" personal, for that, I apologize!!

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Score : 1056

"Everyone is so hellbent to explain bombs combo when I pointed out that Dynamite should not do this. I tested it and backed it up with damage numbers, the sketchy description of Dynamite of course strengthened my belief that this is wrong but it is not just the sketchy description!"


Hold up.

Just to get things straight. You were very adamant that Dynamite was BUGGED and needed to be fixed. This isn't a petition/suggestion post from the beginning.

So, don't you spin the story now. I've noticed you doing the same throughout this entire thread and have not called you out until now.

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You are not wrong to say that non-bomb-stacking Rogue's damage is not competitive even with the most expensive gear and best subs.

But again, tell us something we don't already know.

Many Rogue players feel this way too. So, you're not alone, got it?

As I have mentioned already, damage overall is below par even with all the %damage from passives.
My hunch is because there isn't any spell that gives % extra damage. 
eg, Cra doesn't have as many %damage from passives however they have Destructive Arrow with %extra damage per Riddled and therefore, deals more damage consistently than Rogues.

So if you think buffing Dynamite will solve this problem then you're wrong. What about melee Air rogues who cannot benefit from it? Air branch is ST-focused.
And it's the same thing for them. Put iop's gear on them and they deal so much less damage.
Air Rogues could have so much potential with the enchantment system, if the devs had not removed Roguery (the old spell that lets you get behind the target) or at least remove Evanescence' cooldown.

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Score : 4628

Dynamite also lets your allies trigger the bombs, which can be useful

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Score : 555

 

sycowellmaster#9927|2021-12-15 04:32:39
"Everyone is so hellbent to explain bombs combo when I pointed out that Dynamite should not do this. I tested it and backed it up with damage numbers, the sketchy description of Dynamite of course strengthened my belief that this is wrong but it is not just the sketchy description!"


Hold up.

Just to get things straight. You were very adamant that Dynamite was BUGGED and needed to be fixed. This isn't a petition/suggestion post from the beginning.

So, don't you spin the story now. I've noticed you doing the same throughout this entire thread and have not called you out until now.






Buffing Dynamite would not solve all problems of the rogue of course, but yes I do believe it would make distance / area builds viable without cribbling or overpowering any existing build!

I don't see why any single target focused build should profit from area damage based passive.
A Iop of course would and should always outdamage a rogue at single target attack because the whole class mechanic evolves around punching. This is a matter of opinion but I do not think any class should be played without their core mechanics! So no matter what build i try to create with my rogue it will always include bombs.

In my opinion single target bomber rogue is the strongest build right now but most of the damage comes from bombs, which I think is OK because rogues are all about bombs!

Single target bomber sure has its own problems and the gameplay does not suit me that is why I tried to make something else work!





You are right, I clearly came here first because I thought it was a bug!
We debated bombs mechanics, detonation/badabang, nitpicking on spell description and so on! 

I do have my answer, Siu confirmed it, it is indeed to my disapointement intended behaviour!
So you are right this thread is shifting more and more into something else and for that matter, this thread can be closed!


 
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