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1.71 Rogue Balance Critique and Suggestions

By Aqualad - MEMBER - April 27, 2021, 03:53:44
AnkaTracker
Hello, and thanks for reading my thoughts on the current state of Rogues. Feel free to add your own. I sure will if I think of any more. In short : Rogues need a revamp / rework.


PRO: Rogues are Versatile


The key selling point of Rogues is that they are flexible. They can easily adjust builds on the fly without having to re-gear. Simply stat for Melee Mastery, and play with Single Target or AoE spells as you like. Two great examples of flexibility are Scope and Detonate. Scope = convert Melee Mastery to Distance Mastery, and Bombs scale with Distance. Detonate = use on a target for Single Target damage, or use on a bomb for AoE damage.


CON: Bombs are VITAL, but Guns and Daggers Don't Mix.

Because they are versatile, Rogues cannot excel in everything at once. This weakness is okay. It encourages players to focus their strength and adapt to the situation.

The problem is : Rogues don't feel that flexible in actual gameplay. 70% of the Rogue class revolves around bombs. Guns and Daggers fall off hard. They lack class support because bombs get all the attention. All 6 Rogue active spells only benefit bombs. Ruse, Boot, Powder Wall, Boombot, Magnet, and Smoke Bomb do nothing for Guns or Daggers. 11 out of 17 Rogue passive benefit bombs. This is made worse when you realize that bomb passives usually penalize non-bomb playstyles. Similarly, non-bomb passives penalize bomb playstyles. Playing with the crit passives? Sorry, bombs don't crit. Want to be a bomber with Fugitive? Sorry, deal -20% damage.

As seen, these penalties can be debilitating for cross-style gameplay.

CON: "Building Up" Damage - vs - Delaying Damage

One of Rogue's glaring weaknesses with bombs is that they need to build up their damage. Huppermage is also a class that needs to build up their damage. The difference is that a Rogues build up by delaying their damage over several turns. Little happens in-between. This is because : 1) Rogues can't do anything to actively increase combo points ; 2) Rogues need to spend turns repositioning their bombs ; 3) enemies can destroy bombs ; and 4) the harsh penalties that Rogues gets to non-bomber spells when taking bomber Rogue passives (Example : Fugitive).

Meanwhile, Huppermages build up by dealing damage on their way to deal even more damage.

There are many problems with delaying damage into bombs : 1) Enemies can move away ; 2) Enemies can move the bombs away, or swap positions with them ; 3) Enemies can destroy bombs ; 4) Allies; 5) Weird and specific boss mechanics ; and 6) Constantly needing to rearrange the battlefield. Sometimes, Bomber Rogues spend so much AP and MP on their turn moving things around that they just can't contribute anything else.

CON: Rogues have ONE role : Damage

Courtesy of Bluhen (comments) : the only thing Rogues can do is deal damage. They can't heal others. They  can barely support with the Badabang passive. They can barely debuff with bombs. They are too fragile to off tank, even with the Rogue Master passive and Slap Shot heal connection. Their positionig spells have long cooldowns that make this role inefficient.

In the end, no matter what playstyle you choose (Bombs, Daggers, Guns), Rogue passives improve, yet penalize you for doing your one job (damage), and this is counterproductive. Other classes, like Feca, improve one role (tank) at the expense of another role (damage).

Like Xelors, Rogues deal direct and indirect damage. Below, Bluhen reminds us that Xelors damage dealing side "mixes direct and indirect damage and you can work you way around passives to avoid losing damage; Rogues could use something similar too."

Sycowellmaster (comments) notes : "Compared with other revamps like Masqs where they can choose to be equally amazing as full DD or full support, Rogues really fall behind even when it comes to bombers and non-bombers."


IDEA: Bombs Should Unlock In Battle Automatically

Bombs are to Rogues what Masks are to Masqueraiders : CORE FEATURES. All 3 Bombs need to be unlocked at the start of battle. Even Srams can add all 3 Traps automatically. Removing bombs from the elemental branches will enable Rogues to have 3 more spells to round out their playstyles. Earth can get another spell to help Guns. Air can get another spell to help Daggers. Fire can get another spell to help Bombs.

IDEA: Give Rogues A Saboteur Role

In conjunction with Bluhen (comments) : Rogue gameplay is lacking in the "heroics, intelligence, and cunning in equal measures," "criminal masterminds," and "trickery" aspects of their encyclopedia description. They feel more like bomb babysitters. By definition of being Rogue's RUSE, they should have a better support role as clever saboteurs with tricks, tactics, stratagems, deceptions, schemes, etc.

The trouble with their current sabotage potential is : debuffs are tied to bomb explosions, but the best crowd control is death.

Debuffs from bomb explosions are counterproductive to how bombs work. You don't want to detonate a low combo bomb for pitiful damage and a chance to inflict a tiny penalty to AP, MP or WP. You want to build up combo damage to deal massive damage and just kill things outright.

By the time you have built up your combo, your target is dead, and any debuff you might have inflicted on them is irrelevant. Not to mention, Rogues have no Force of Will passives, and no real reason to stat for Force of Will.

Some sabotage ideas : Bluhen suggests "Snipe Shots of cripple, Landmines, Smoke Bombs to protect your team."

Perhaps bombs could attempt to apply their -AP, -MP, -WP debuffs immediately in the would-be explosion AoE when they are first placed. Rogues could have a stationary "decoy" that taunts nearby mobs to attack it as well, at which point it could explode.

IDEA: Sticky Bombs and Combos

Somehow enable Rogues to cast bombs directly on a target. Example : This could be a "Sticky Bomb" connection from the Air branch (stab > next bomb can be cast directly on a target). Give the Rogue the ability to stabilize their bombs. Also reenable the Rogue's ability to actively participate in generating combo points for their bombs.

IDEA: Rearrange Elemental Spells For Synergy

Example: Carbine is a good idea, but it does not belong in the Air Branch. Literally every other Air spell is about being in melee to slap things with your Daggers. Carbine should be moved to the Earth branch.

IDEA: More Non-Bomber Synergy with Bombs / Less Non-Bomber Dependence on Bombs

Example: Carbine and Execution deal more damage when targeting or interacting with bombs. This mindset can and should extend to other spells. Similarly, Evanescence should not require you to target a bomb. It should be useable on any target, but provide the damage bonus when used on a bomb. 

IDEA: More Gun and Dagger Actives and Passives!

Daggers : Connections end when you move or end your turn. Give this playstyle a passive that lets you keep your connection when moving or ending your turn. Consider a "self-destruct" passive. Maybe Melee Rogues get perks for blowing themselves up. Maybe they can make a connection that instantly detonates a bomb by striking it with an air spell in melee, and they get a buff in return, or alter the bomb.

Guns : Bring back the old Surprise Shot effect somehow... perhaps as a "Warning Shot" passive. Enemies who move closer to the Rogue within a set range take damage (once per enemy per turn), and take increased damage for the next non-bomb spell on the Rogue's turn. Give Guns the ability to interact with Boombot somehow. Give them a stationary canon that you can load bombs into, and then fire them off.

Critical Hits : Consider adding the conversion of Critical Hit Chance into Indirect Damage boost for one of the bomber passives.
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First Ankama intervention

Replying to sycowellmaster

 

sycowellmaster|2021-04-30 11:22:59
Moving bombs to core spells is so on point! Why did they not do this.....?

Because we didn't have the time.

We would need to create 3 brand new spells with new animations and whatnot. From our perspective, either we do that, or we do something else. We can't do both, so it all comes down to priorities and the time each fix / balancing requires. We simply don't have the physical means to intervene on every matter in the game at once.

If you ask me the question, I certainly want to move bombs to the third bar as well so maybe in the future I'll have some time, but for now, it's like that.
See message in context
Reactions 31
Score : 341

I'd say replace Boomerang dagger with Carbine air is for daggers after all! 

 

cody5|2021-04-27 22:35:52
I mean carabine is amazing in melee, but it should at least have a connection

Oops, I didn't think about that. If it were to have a connection what would it be? 
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I mean carabine is amazing in melee, but it should at least have a connection

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One of the biggest issues I've noticed in the class is the lack of Roles. The only role that Rogues can effectively exert is Damage and pretty much nothing else. Off tank? Not even the auto-heal and armor from Rogue Master can compensate the fact that the class is fragile, Support? Badabang is very limited to act as a buffer, Positioner? Long Cooldowns makes this playstyle unviable (they can't replace a natural positioner such as Panda, Elio, Masq, etc), Debuffer? Interesting, but not too strong as it could be. Even on the Encyclopedia you can tell that whoever wrote the roles for the class had a hard time coming up with them and the 3 of them are pretty much the same

  • Specialty: Bombs are Rogue's favorite weapons. They explose on command and gain power with each passing turn
  • Damage:  Useful from any distance, Rogues easily adapt to the most varied situations. Some spells can reach enemies hidden behind obstacles **(I guess this was an outdated reference to CrossFire)**
  • Control Thanks to their bombs and their positioning abilities, Rogues can place their target wherever they like, or prevent it from coming any nearer.


What tends to happen during a Rework is that classes get Specializated through passives in some sort of equivalent exchange: "you receive this at the cost of this other thing". For example, let's take a look at Fecas who can be built as Damagers, Protectors or Tanks. Regardless of which one you pick the passives will reinforce your playstyle and, simultaneously, will affect negatively the other 2. 

But Rogues... Since they can only act as Damagers, Devs sub-divided this role into: Direct and Indirect (bombs) damage which, ultimately, ended up hurting the class because, at the end, Rogues are forced to pick between shots&daggers (which is a weird mix between Melee, Distance, ST and AoE cuz of the range of the spells) and reduce their combo generation OR bombs at the cost of Critical Hits, Range and FD%.

The passives collide with each other even if they all fall under the same Role: Damage. A difference of other classes (such as Fecas), Rogue's passives improve and debuff the same role at the same time which is pretty ilogic and counterproductive if you ask me. It isn't like you are giving up on direct damage to buff your support side or resistances, you are giving up on direct damage to increase to increase your bombs' and viceversa. Xelor are interesting because their DD side mixes direct and indirect and you can work you way around passives to avoid losing damage, Rogues could use something similar too.

------

That being said, I'd like to see more Roles for the class. Personally, I'd turn them into a damage/support character, with a wider variety of Sabotaging tools. Snipe Shots to cripple, landmines, smoke bombs to protect the team, stuff like that. 

Sticky Bombs have always been a good concept and, in my opinion, could be an interesting option for a spell. The thing is, Sticky Bombs would most likely be implemented as an State and it could be strong if Rogues could manually choose when to trigger them, to balance this maybe Sticky bombs could act as Delayed Direct damage so it wouldn't go through armor. Another option would be to implement Sticky Bombs as a support tool, when an ally attacks an enemy that carries a sticky the spell deals additional damage in AoE, it could be an interesting synergy that would require some teamwork to shine too, similar to Hippolyre's tune but stronger or maybe based on how many bombs the enemy is carrying.

Moving the bombs to a third bar is a must, core spells should always be allocated on a separated special and not make the player to decide which spells to leave out of the deck just to use them. Also, I think that Compressing the Combo passives into 1 or 2 would be ideal to make room for more options that could improve other playstyles.

While, yes, it is true that Rogue is a class that's very versatile when it comes to building, the same doesn't reflect when you have to actually play them on a real battle.

They need another rework or revision.
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A lot of good points, thanks. I didn't really consider that Rogue only has 1 real role (damage), but it's true.

I agree that Rogues should consolidate passives to open up more options.

Yes, Rogues have a lot of long cooldowns on positioning spells that should be adjusted. 

Rogue gameplay is certainly lacking in the "heroics, intelligence, and cunning in equal measures," "criminal masterminds," and "trickery" aspects of their encyclopedia description. They feel more like bomb babysitters. By definition of being Rogue's RUSE, they should have a better support role as clever saboteurs with tricks, tactics, stratagems, deceptions, schemes, etc. I will add this to the main post later.

The trouble with their current sabotage potential is : debuffs are tied to bomb explosions, but the best crowd control is death.

Debuffs from bomb explosions are counterproductive to how bombs work. You don't want to detonate a low combo bomb for pitiful damage and a chance to inflict a tiny penalty to AP, MP or WP. You want to build up combo damage to deal massive damage and just kill things outright.

By the time you have built up your combo, your target is dead, and any debuff you might have inflicted on them is irrelevant. Not to mention, Rogues have no Force of Will passives, and no real reason to stat for Force of Will.

Some sabotage ideas : In addition to your called shots idea and landmines... Perhaps bombs could attempt to apply their debuffs immediately in the would-be explosion AoE when they are first placed. Rogues could have a stationary "decoy" that taunts nearby mobs to attack it, at which point it could explode.

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Moving bombs to core spells is so on point! Why did they not do this.....? 

Earth branch is almost not appealing at all. It's very much set for AoE build and even the one and only ST spell–Machine Gun– is like meh. Similar to how Carbine is awkwardly placed in the air branch, as OP has mentioned. By taking out bombs from spell lists, perhaps we can slot in one more ST / AoE to each branch so that each elemental branch is more diverse instead of  being ST or AOE focused.

Also, evanescene having 2 turn cd is seriously beyond me. I can picture this spell to be used as bread and butter every turn as a combo for melee rogues for consistent and competitive damage, but the cooldown really spoils it. Same goes for piercing shot. I would rather they lower the base damage a little bit in exchange of removing the cooldowns, if that's what it takes.

Compared with other revamps like Masqs where they can choose to be equally amazing as full DD or full support, Rogues really fall behind even when it comes to bombers and non-bombers.

Sure, bombs can deal a ton of delayed damage (after several turns of babysitting..), however non-bomber rogues deal so little direct damage compared with other direct damage dealer classes for absolutely no reasons. Passives are either you go full bombs or you don't, so why as a non-bomber rogue, my damage is not up to par? Doesn't make sense.

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sycowellmaster|2021-04-30 11:22:59
Moving bombs to core spells is so on point! Why did they not do this.....?

Because we didn't have the time.

We would need to create 3 brand new spells with new animations and whatnot. From our perspective, either we do that, or we do something else. We can't do both, so it all comes down to priorities and the time each fix / balancing requires. We simply don't have the physical means to intervene on every matter in the game at once.

If you ask me the question, I certainly want to move bombs to the third bar as well so maybe in the future I'll have some time, but for now, it's like that.
Score : 1708

Might be worthwhile to make an light damage bomb in the third bar, and let one/two spell from each branch grant the bomb different effects, allowing you you vary the zone shape and debuff applied depending on which element was used when you finally detonate it. Would be nice if a bomb explosion after an air modulation push enemy outwards from the bomb, for example.

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A good majority of classes have one role, Hupper, Iop, Cra, and Sram are basically only damage dealers. Wakfu classes shouldn't be in a constant state of revamps as all it does it cause imbalance and lack of stability. Class doesn't need a revamp.

Also to add on to this, Wakfu works well with this. The game prefers the player to focus their playstyles.

Obviously the lack of crit and rear influence from bombs do not help influence the interest in elemental spells.

Critical Hits : Consider adding the conversion of Critical Hit Chance into Indirect Damage boost for one of the bomber passives. Great idea btw

Had a long post felt unnecessary

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I mean, a lack of stability would not nececarily be a bad thing, if the dev team had the manpower to do patches more then quice a year.

I am personally against conversion passivs tho, as I think passives shoud not lock you into a build (curently the best damage you can take on a distance rogue is melee and distance, since they get added up with the scope passive, but it means you literally can't play without that passive).

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[Siu]|2021-04-30 00:44:35
 
sycowellmaster|2021-04-30 11:22:59
Moving bombs to core spells is so on point! Why did they not do this.....?


Because we didn't have the time.

We would need to create 3 brand new spells with new animations and whatnot. From our perspective, either we do that, or we do something else. We can't do both, so it all comes down to priorities and the time each fix / balancing requires. We simply don't have the physical means to intervene on every matter in the game at once.

If you ask me the question, I certainly want to move bombs to the third bar as well so maybe in the future I'll have some time, but for now, it's like that.

Thanks for reading the thoughts of those who posted in this thread. I do appreciate your time and that of the other developers. I recognize that Rogue balance is just one small aspect in the big world of Wakfu, and thanks for keeping them in mind for the future. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know.

In the meantime, I will continue gathering community feedback for the team in preparation for the next Rogue pass, whenever that may be.

While I do have you, quick question : Since Bombs used Control in the past, will they be affected by the Control rework during the Osamodas revamp?
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You're very welcome. Thank you for your understanding, I assure you that I appreciate reading such threads and posts.

Aqualad|2021-04-30 20:45:52
Since Bombs used Control in the past, will they be affected by the Control rework during the Osamodas revamp?

I'm not sure how exactly Control is going to be reworked yet. But the intent is to provide some kind of use to Control at some point.

Control may also take the form of a wild card stat that improves different things from one class to another.
For example (purely hypothetical) : improved survivability and damage on Cra's beacons, better rails (distance between bots) for Foggernaut...

It's not set in stone, at this point, and there's still the possibility we'll just delete Control of the game. I hope that answers your question.
Score : 341

 

cody5|2021-04-30 14:43:14
I mean, a lack of stability would not nececarily be a bad thing, if the dev team had the manpower to do patches more then quice a year.

I am personally against conversion passivs tho, as I think passives shoud not lock you into a build (curently the best damage you can take on a distance rogue is melee and distance, since they get added up with the scope passive, but it means you literally can't play without that passive).


I've been playing around with a Long distance build that utilizes bombs for more crit/dmg for a little and something that's kinda annoying is that five of our gun spells don't have any connections at all sadly. 
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Yeah gun combos would work perfectly with Wakfu connection

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[Siu]|2021-05-01 18:41:20
You're very welcome. Thank you for your understanding, I assure you that I appreciate reading such threads and posts.
Aqualad|2021-04-30 20:45:52
Since Bombs used Control in the past, will they be affected by the Control rework during the Osamodas revamp?




I'm not sure how exactly Control is going to be reworked yet. But the intent is to provide some kind of use to Control at some point.

It's not set in stone, at this point, and there's still the possibility we'll just delete Control of the game. 



The existence of plenty of control gear in-game, as well as that the support ID sets grant control in their breastplates, epaulettes, belts and set bonus, means that support and summoner combat will be losing a huge divet of its Identity if control is removed and upsetting the stat spread of a huge amount of gear. Please reconsider if this is on your list of things to change.

In addition, the revamped foggenauts still links the number of summonable turrets to the total amount of control you have. If control was really to be delinked with the number of things you can summon, why would a revamped class not have already taken this into account? Is it because the fogger revamp was way too early before control's irrelevance is established the new team's vision?

On the flip side, something simple like granting 8 res to mechanisms and summons per control would cover all classes but sacrier, elio, huppermage and feca, and granting an additional 5% indirect damage inflicted per control would cover another 3 classes, leaving huppermage the only class unable to benefit from control. This minimizes the amount of edge cases needed to be provided to each class for one stat.
 
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cody5|2021-04-30 16:43:14

I am personally against conversion passivs tho, as I think passives shoud not lock you into a build

It would be interesting if bombs could act similar to chromatic damage, in a sense that they'd automatically adapt to your character's highest mastery to deal damage. So, if you got 500 Distance Mastery, they'd use your distance mastery by default to deal damage without having to necessarily take a passive for that. I wonder if that could be programmed, distance builds would appreciate that extra slot.
Thothus|2021-04-30 12:58:58
Might be worthwhile to make an light damage bomb in the third bar, and let one/two spell from each branch grant the bomb different effects, allowing you you vary the zone shape and debuff applied depending on which element was used when you finally detonate it. Would be nice if a bomb explosion after an air modulation push enemy outwards from the bomb, for example.

Sounds like the old doll concept that Sadidas had. It has it's uses but, personally, I think it just added to the whole summoning process an unnecessary extra step, considering that you also have to usually save some APs to cast Kick, Boombot, Ruse and other utility spells. Maybe the push effect could be activated through a passive? Like the first concept of Specialized Mechanisms during the Xelor Rework: if a bomb is Detonated/Destroyed by the Rogue then it pushes 2 cells back (?) it could turn them into interesting positioning tools on demand (if the passive was to need a Cons for balancing purpouses, I guess it could change the AoE of the explosion to a circle of 1 cell)
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Bluhen|2021-05-02 10:16:35
 
cody5|2021-04-30 16:43:14

I am personally against conversion passivs tho, as I think passives shoud not lock you into a build


It would be interesting if bombs could act similar to chromatic damage, in a sense that they'd automatically adapt to your character's highest mastery to deal damage. So, if you got 500 Distance Mastery, they'd use your distance mastery by default to deal damage without having to necessarily take a passive for that. I wonder if that could be programmed, distance builds would appreciate that extra slot.
Thothus|2021-04-30 12:58:58
Might be worthwhile to make an light damage bomb in the third bar, and let one/two spell from each branch grant the bomb different effects, allowing you you vary the zone shape and debuff applied depending on which element was used when you finally detonate it. Would be nice if a bomb explosion after an air modulation push enemy outwards from the bomb, for example.


 I think it just added to the whole summoning process an unnecessary extra step, considering that you also have to usually save some APs to cast Kick, Boombot, Ruse and other utility spells. 

There are two ways to circumvent this: refunding AP if the spell is casted on a bomb, or giving the bomb combo stacks. Both are ways to provide value for the -AP sunken into giving the bomb additional properties.
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Eh, that sounds a lot like the old sadida seeds and noone really liked that mechanic
Just give us 3 bombs on 3rd bar like masqueraider masks

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Two Active Ideas


Powder Wall : Rename to "Gunpowder." Remove AP cost. If cast on a bomb, it creates the powder wall per usual. If cast on yourself (use old Fusillade animation and sound, saving you time and effort to make something new), it converts your MP into AP for the current turn.

This is reminiscent of the old Fusillade effect but not as powerful (double your AP). Spells have hard cast limits per turn. Otherwise, this passive becomes useful for all playstyles and not just bombers.


Boot and Magnet : Consider combing these spells to make room for a new passive. Think about it. Boot targets an empty cell to move the closest bomb onto it. Magnet must target a bomb. The functions of Boot and Magnet easily overlap into one Active. 2 AP, no WP cost.
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I mean given how ubiquitous bomb play is to the Rogue, even Boot should be moved to the third bar to let the rogue actually use their spells in their spell deck. I would also prefer it have a hard 2 per turn cast limit with no AP cost, than unlimited cast at 2AP cost each, since there's only so much you can do with 6 bomb movements and fixed orientation (no moving a bomb across the rogue), unless you're abusing it as some sort of walking machine for 12MP

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Decent suggestions all round but Rogue still needs a viable playstyle outside of bombs. Gunner rogue and melee are both awkward to play without any decent passives.

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Hearttyace|2021-05-08 05:30:42
How in the world is boot Vital? Has anyone tried playing "Direct damage" rogue?

Move the spells up to third bar, and give us better synergy with executing via spells.




We have, it's just that Direct Damage rogues still have slots remaining to take bomb related active spells, elemental spells, and passives (e.g. explobomb) simply because there aren't enough direct damage stuff. And in this case, bombs can still be used for utility such as self-teleports (Ruse/Evanescence/escapist), obstacles (jackpot/reinforced tunic), boosting damage (explobomb) or positioning (magnetism, target for mass charm)

In such a case, Boot remains vital as long as you're playing Rogue, even if you don't use bombs (like how Master of Elements Fecas don't use peace armour much)

I would also argue that because of the limited amount of positioning ability of rogue most would take boombot along with the boombot passive too, and use it whenever it is off cooldown, simply because 1) its cooldown is too long so you're losing out across the turns if you save it for a crucial moment 2) it's use is too versatile, it lets you put 4 bombs instead of 3 in turn 1, and each turn matters in terms of letting bombs accrue combo points

 
Hearttyace|2021-05-08 10:46:44
I disagree, Boot is expensive inefficient for moving bombs. Assuming you're using Evolved gadgets, the moment you put it on, every spell becomes more efficient to use on an enemy than setting up your bombs. Magnet is just super efficient at moving bombs.

For your information, I can't afford Excess at all, nor have I played Rogue before its rebalance so I have never gone through the excessive stacking of combo via Boot, but I still think its worthwhile in the third bar (if not, then boombot should be).

The quoted part from your post does not contradict my point at all, having it necessary and it being cost inefficient are two different points - in fact I mentioned in an earlier post that I would rather boot have a limited use per turn and not cost AP- that still doesn't negate the fact that it's important enough in the third bar, because gadget rogues still can take 1 of the 3 elemental bombs (Preferrably Earth to bypass LoS) for utility, and necessitating its positioning either via Boot or Cross Fire.

Moving bombs via another bomb requires you to summon the new one, which is yet more added AP cost. I'm talking about moving bombs itself, not moving other things using bombs 0.0"

If your argument is that Boombot takes priority to Boot to being in the third bar if comparing necessity, I wholeheartedly agree though.
 
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I disagree, Boot is expensive inefficient for moving bombs. Assuming you're using Evolved gadgets, the moment you put it on, every spell becomes more efficient to use on an enemy than setting up your bombs. Magnet is just super efficient at moving bombs.

Yes I hate Reconversion. But what you said isn't actually true to a degree, if you were to take Elemental bombs, it would be. But that's pretty counter productive to "Direct damage" rogue. Jackpot reduces the efficiency of Reconversion, You can try both with reconversion combo and without or just run the numbers, The damage dealt is similar to if you set up yourself with conversion vs just using boombot after summoning 3 bombs via rogue, just one boot reduces it to below boombot setting you up.

It's mainly because people are stuck in the mindset of using Excess. Which sucks on any explobomb build. But it's also the only "powerful" Rogue build so there's that. IMO getting rid of Minesweeper makes more sense and replacing it with damage.

ALL IN ALL, Boot isn't necessary, Ruse and Magnet serve similar purposes for different builds. Probably as necessary as Powderwall if not less. I really find Powderwall's more necessary and it taking up a slot is abnormal for a spell that has been with Rogue since the dawn of time.

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Hearttyace|2021-05-07 23:30:42
How in the world is boot Vital? Has anyone tried playing "Direct damage" rogue?

I can assure you of one thing, You don't use boot.  I'd argue the biggest problem with "direct damage" rogue is the low damage. It deals low damage ST damage and average AoE. Lower than Sram and Iop, while they have utility built into your spell.


I have, currently I'm playing a Direct Damage Distance Rogue which I've been loving so far. And yeah, when you go for direct damage you don't really need to worry about bomb positioning or combo generation, you just need to make sure the bombs get somehow destroyed (Dynamite) so you can buff your CH% & CH Damage for the next turn (Explobomb), I rarely use Boot because the AI tends to destroy the bombs I place right away when I'm not in range. I think Direct Damage Rogue is a very fun playstyle, a lot more dynamic than Bombs that's for sure, the fact that you have to find ways to trigger passives and create scenarios to increase your damage even more is very rewarding.

The damage is good I'd say, but you need to trigger Explobomb first (which means that you have to summon bombs on the first turn) and/or make sure you start your turn alligned to an enemy to get the DI% bonus on Piercing Shot and have enough CH% to trigger the bonus from Evolved Gadgets (after all, if you don't get a crit the passive goes to waste). 
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