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Rogue Changes and suggestions

By Hearttyace#2739 - MEMBER - March 04, 2021, 09:15:17

Lemme start by saying. I couldn't make Rogue. Rogue is by far the most innovative and best conceptual class currently available and the dev team some great things with the last tweaks. For example, removing combo generation based on AP was the best step in the right direction. Just not enough. So lets get started

Things I wanted to focus on here was:
- Getting rid of idle combat and increasing the use of elemental spells
-  Lowering skill floor while increasing skill ceiling
- Better interactions with other classes that aren't named panda.
- Passives with one clear goal in mind.

Rogue tweaks.

Bombs: Almost Perfect. I would however like to add an additional effect on them that already exist in a passive.
Explobomb:
I think this should be a passive state attached to bombs.
// To increase the presence of elemental spells also it adds an extra layer of power that passives can manipulate.

Explobomb:

  • Per bomb detonated  = 1 explobomb state
  • 1 explobomb level = 10% crit. (No crit damage)
  • -2 explobomb per turn
  • 5 stacks max

As for elemental spells, withstanding crosshot, only 2  spells need changing = Piercing shot and Carbine. They're far too expensive.
Bombs cost AP, we need to account for that when we're thinking of how to play the class. No spell should cost more than 4 ap because we have to use a bomb every turn, and when we don't the choice should be impactful. TL;DR Carbine and Piercing shot = 4 ap, damage scaling accordingly.

Passives:

Boomarogue:
  •    Same as currently
  •   -25% indirect damage.
// Ease of reconversion for reduced powderwall next turn.

Evolved gadgets:
  •    Start fight with 4 explobomb state
  •    Explobomb reduces by 2 each turn
  •    -2 combo per turn
// Consistent crit for a slower ramp up

Bomberfan:
  •   5+ max combo
  •   -Bombs can no longer be exploded single target
// Honestly it could stay the same, but I think this would have a neat balancing effect and affects combat more than -resistance of something you will protect regardless

Pyrotechnist:
  •    Powderwall damage increased by 50%
  •    Powderwall last 1 turn
// It's interesting because you don't want rooms to last too long and setting up a bombwall for 2 turns make no sense but is still a powerful option if the situation calls for it also lower the synergy with panda that's already too high.

Reinforced Tunic:
  •    Bombs 40% of Rogues hp
  •    +50 resistance
  •   -300% hp of level
// No need to protect bombs anymore, they're here to help you. But you'll be pretty squishy yourself as a reponse.

Minesweeper:
  •    Boombot explosion no longer harms allies
  •    Boombot detonation buffs allies for 25% damage dealt upon explosion for 2 turns.
// I really hated the old passive, it did nothing for the class. Increased AP cost of bombs, Lowered interest in elemental spells, Enhanced an already powerful gameplay option. Was super boring. This passive makes boombots detonation spell an actual option.

Scope:
  •  Melee to Distance
  •  1:1
  •  Bombs/powderwall based on distance.
// Is what it is. Necessary for a class designed around 2 elements.

Rogue Master:
  •   Executing a fighter:
  •     Connection = 2 mp
  •   Perform: 3 connections for Long sword
  •   -1 range
// Armor didn't really affect the class all too much, and kind of had no impact on the class. This passive enhances the ability to kite while reducing ranged rogue from being overbearing.

Fugative:
  •  1 mp
  •  -20% damage inflicted
  • +4 combo to bombs placed.
// Pretty interesting passive. It's fine. It influences a playstyle and could make a powderwall focused build more powerful. Just plain cool.

Kaboom:
  •  3 additional combo per turn
  •  -100 resistance on bombs
// This is free damage and needed a more impactful negative.

Surprise shot:
  •   35% damage dealt to aligned enemies till rogue moves
  •  -100% damage dealt from bombs till rogue moves.
// This was an interesting passive that had very low impact since it had no synergy with any other spell than piercing shot. With the lowered cost of piercing shot and Carbine, I think this passive is more interesting now.

Explobomb:
  •   -5 max combo
  •   explobomb state now provides an additional 10% crit damage per state
// Similar to the current one just some granularity to help the Rogue play around the state more.

Escapist:
...
// Honestly, this spell isn't interesting in the least, I don't have anything to say about it. I think it's a pvp passive that enhances kiting, I don't think it needed enhancing either.

Dynamite:
  •   Bombs explode on destruction via damage.
  •   25% increased damage for exploding from damage.
  •   25% increased damage to allies
// Increased bomb output, more damage to allies. With badabang additional damage gone, I think this opens up better gameplay to the a dynamite build.

Elemental bombs:
  •  4 bombs now available
  •  30% less crit.
// With the update to explobomb it's far more viable to control crit. A larger reponse makes sense.

Wakfu connection:
  •   Each Connection = 5% damage dealt next turn
  •   5 connections = 1 wp
  •   -2 wp
// Rogue is an extremely powerful kiter, luckily all of Rogues Kiting ablities are tied to WP. This is offering more control for less longevity.

Jackpot:
 This is already a a super cool passive.
 No changes.
Maybe remove the resistance and remove detonation cost instead.
I dunno, pretty cool passive.

Edit: Bonuses
Slap shot -  Regain 1 ap on next melee spell

Of course, I think Powderwall should be able to crit and take rear but that's time for another day.

Things I think need to be worked on:
AP removal weakness - Removing even 1 ap from a rogue drops their output excessively. It's a hard counter to the class. Might not be a problem.
Single Target options - Despite having to protecting bombs, ST is always a weaker option than AOE for rogue atleast. I guess because of powderwall, but it's arguable that bombs by all logic should default to an aoe nature.
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Reactions 5
Score : 10269

I disagree about Rogue Master and Escapist. Both passives are great survivability tools for Melee Rogues, specially when you are alone or need some sort of sustain. 

Rogue Master is a very good tool to keep any Rogue alive. Being able to generate a 2k shield in 1 turn at level 200 passively while dealing damage AND stealing HP from the enemy is very decent, and you don't even need a target to trigger the Passive, you can just spam Slap Shot and Barbecued Ribs on an empty cell to build up armor or your own Bombs to get HP back from the air connection. This ressources can be improved by equipping the right sublimations too.

On the other hand, Escapist is also a great tool for (as the name implies) passively escaping a dangerous situation, when paired with Blinding bomb (a bomb with a really good modificable range and no LoS) you can TP a very long distance, it also synergyzes with Dynamite. While it's true that Rogues have other means of escape, Evanescense has a 2-turns CD, Ruse has a 3-urns CD and Boombot (which is mainly a bomb positioning tool) has a heavy 4-Turns CD. This tools are required to be paired with a bomb which, at the end, increases the total AP that you need to invest to escape from a group of enemies, Machine Gun can not be used in close-combat and Magnet has a heavy cost of 2 WP and, again, needs to be paired with a bomb in order for it to work (similar to Mass Charm). I think it is a very good addition for the class, considering that Rogues aren't naturally tanky and the AP used per turn tends to be high because you need to constantly move your bombs and position yourself around which can lead to unfinished plays to lack of AP when you need to escape.

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Hearttyace|2021-03-05 03:35:33

Every situation where escapist can be used, You could replace it with magnet. Magnet being infinitely cheaper than escapist potential use. Especially with Rogue being such a WP friendly class. I mean it's weird that you even said it needs to be paired with a bomb because so does escapist. It's bad imo, it could've been a really strong active perhaps but the potential for misplays is higher than the potential usefulness of the passive over other passives. Do we really need two ruses?
 



Hmmm I still disagree on that.

There is a difference between doing this:

  
*Just an example to show how the spell can affect multiple targets. Other option would've been to use Magnetism to move the monster instead of the Rogue*

than doing this:
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Magnetism shines more as an offensive tool when you need to attract every enemy possible to the bombs (or just 1 if you have a ST build) to guarantee an 0HKO. It CAN be used as an escape tool but the use on a real battle differs a lot from Escapist, with Magnet you need to pay attention to every single alligned entity with the bomb, since it's range is unlimited you can end up attracting an ally to a death glyph, triggering a monster's passive, moving an enemy out of lock, there are a lot of more things that you need to take into account if you use it as an escape route instead of an attacking spell (for explosions)

Escapist on the other hand, is a hit&run spell for personal use. What I meant when I talked about the APs is that since you need to invest some good amount of ressources every turn positioning targets, it is nice to have a passive TP that doesn't require a lot of APs to work and you can trigger manually. It is a very versatile and manageable passive that can really help Melee builds to have more mobility around the battle field without relying too much on Ruse or Evanescene (you'd likely still use them though), close gaps between you and the enemy, get pretty far from them or create obstacles with the bombs.
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That's why I think that Magnetism can not replace Escapist in any way, because both spells have very different defined uses.

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Hearttyace|2021-03-05 03:35:33
I personally think Rogue has a lot of kiting potential, potentially far too much. From boombot, ruse, magnet, machine gun, -mp, boot, evanesence(not ideal). It's loaded. Maybe more than every class in the game? Which isn't a bad thing, but if you're not really getting hit there's no point in sustain from armor sources we also have no block or tank stats to warrant it, it literally has no spells that do give armor other than another passive yet we have a -armor in our passives. It doesn't make much sense. It almost exist to just counter the other passive which is seems like bad design.
 



I think it is counterproductive to give a class that's not specialized in Support, like a Iop, a healing spell that's meant to be used on allies, but I think it is okey to give classes some sort of sustain through armor generation or health steal and that's precisely what Rogue Master does: it gives Rogue some sustain through connections. I like the idea of having a passive that increases the Health Steals, it sounds very interesting and I think it fits the class but the Armor Generation (the way it works right now) is very useful for the Rogue.
Hearttyace|2021-03-05 03:35:33

But hey, I'm very interested in is the removal of Badabang, any thoughts on that? I think it increases the presence of Excess far too much.



In fact, I wouldn't mind if the passive got reworked or removed. As you said, when paired with Excess (a very common choice for any Rogue), the damage increase is way too much. A loaded bomb already deals a ton of damage, adding Badabang on top that + the dmg buff from other bombs of the same element + excess... mute. The only downside the passive has is the 2 AP increase on the Detonator, it is a strong straight up buff.

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I'd love if elemental spells could act less as utility tools because it's true, when I play a bombs build I rarely use them to deal direct damage, instead I use them pretty much for support and positioning purpouses. Another good addition to the class is to move the bombs to a third bar which would open up space for 3 new elemental spells.
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Score : 4527

This seems to  be a really pvp centered post because wasting ap on empty tiles isn't an ideal case scenario or something that should be balanced on for AP. There's a lot going against this in your own post. Rogue isn't a tanky class, and armor still scales off your resist.  You said it yourself AP turn to turn is high. At high levels of play (atleast pve) moving your bomb every turn is a waste of AP.  Again, the ideas were purposed to influence the use of Elemental spells, not to make them glorified utility spells. Breaking idle gameplay.

Every situation where escapist can be used, You could replace it with magnet. Magnet being infinitely cheaper than escapist potential use. Especially with Rogue being such a WP friendly class. I mean it's weird that you even said it needs to be paired with a bomb because so does escapist. It's bad imo, it could've been a really strong active perhaps but the potential for misplays is higher than the potential usefulness of the passive over other passives. Do we really need two ruses?

I personally think Rogue has a lot of kiting potential, potentially far too much. From boombot, ruse, magnet, machine gun, -mp, boot, evanesence(not ideal). It's loaded. Maybe more than every class in the game? Which isn't a bad thing, but if you're not really getting hit there's no point in sustain from armor sources we also have no block or tank stats to warrant it, it literally has no spells that do give armor other than another passive yet we have a -armor in our passives. It doesn't make much sense. It almost exist to just counter the other passive which is seems like bad design.

I think a neat idea would be to get rid of that and have a -heal received to counter all the healing we can potentially achieve though. But also have a passive that improves our life steal. We already have it in our kit, and it's very powerful as well.

Perhaps a passive that gives 300% of level of hp and +25% hp steal for -1mp.

But hey, I'm very interested in is the removal of Badabang, any thoughts on that? I think it increases the presence of Excess far too much.

 

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Score : -2750

heyyy! rogue is OK ,No need more revamp

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