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Rogue brainstorming. And my thoughts about the class. WIP.

By Zumo-Atlantico - MEMBER - July 21, 2020, 17:18:49

Hello, my name is Dinamire, a lvl 215 Rogue player. I play in elbor server, I've been playing Rogue since the class exists. Currently, I made every content that's out there to be done, and progressing on the newer dungeons. 

I'm making this post to ask for ideas for a possible Rogue kit change.
No idea is crazy, everything is debatable. I'm only going to ask you to be respectful about everyones thoughts. 

Should Rogue have bombs baked into their base kit?

What I mean by this, as I don't imagine any Feca being able to play without glyphs, I can't imagine either a Rogue playing without bombs. 
Having them as 1 deck slot per element feels a bit unfair compared to another classes.
Also whole wakfu regeneration is tied to bombs. 

I think that, yes, bombs should be bar 3. 

Active skills:

Boot:

Fine. Fun skill, fun connection, very good for play making. Very bueno. 

Ruse:
Same thing as Boot. Adds mobility to the class, has a nice cooldown. Powerfull tool. 

Powder wall: 
Brutality based powder wall damage is insane. ST builds are lacking this tool, badly.
Complements really well bombs. Scaling on this skill could be changed. Maybe higher base damage, less escaling based on AoE mastery. I still have to clear my mind about this one. 

Boombot:
The class simply doesn't work without this fella. Reconversion allows for big T2 damage, so it makes rooms quite decent with Rogue, and also big burst damage by stacking fire bombs. 
Reconversion is what is holding the class up. This is a huge balance issue for the class, in my opinion. Also the class it's getting through the cheese the boss way. Examples, vandals s31, crustacean, etc. Where you can completely avoid his mechanics. 

It's good that you can burst through some phases, but not the whole boss. Imo.

Dynamite:

Quite good skill, could have some extra effect to complement this. 
Actually this is not used a lot because you can't proc excess with this, with the auto explosion effect, or damage effect. The times I used this was to wombo-combo damage with a Iop's wrath. Iop goes BOOM. 

Besides that, it's used to get buffs with K-boom. 

Smoke-bombs:

Not usefull at all, since distance builds are a big nope. Maybe placing a defensive skill here could be cool. 
Sram like design. Big cooldown defensive, for a very squishy class. Not as strong as invisibility, ofc. 

Mass-Atracct:
Even if it's not part of the class, you will still pick this over a lot of class skills. It's insane how you can combo with this. 

Elemental Rogue skills:

As overall thought, I think combo generation should be removed of any elemental skill, like blam. Simply because it will make it mandatory. Blam, for example. Boring skill, being mandatory because it adds 3 combo to the bombs. 

You need it because max combo from bombs it's 20. Natural combo generation gets it to 14 in 2 turns. You need 2 blam usages or 3 boots to boost a bomb, and since blam it's an AoE skill you will pick it. Also moving bombs to give them combo can lead to a huge missplay where your bombs will get killed.  And if your bombs get killed... oh boy...


Fire Branch:
How I think the branch should be: 
-> Mid to long range. 
-> Bomb and powder wall interaction. 

Barbed Fire:

Skill basically used to heal bombs. The life steal it's a big nope on this one. 
53 base damage on 3 AP, only distance based. 3-5 range. 
Big heal + resistance buff. 

Even with the healing thing, this skill has no slot on the deck, it's better to have an Eni to heal your bomb up with one 3 AP AoE skill. Bombs won't get focused down, and if they do, they will die before you even get to use this skill on them. You can only use this on t1 effectively, and if you do so, you will loose a big portion of your damage for t2. 

Idea for new barbed Fire:

Barbed Fire: 

3 AP skill. Needs to target a bomb. 
Makes AoE damage around the bomb, 1 tile. 
If powder wall is active, makes damage in every powder wall tile. 

We could have another way to cover up bombs. 

Execution

I think this could be a great tool if it got simplified. More AP coast, better baseline effect, less scaling. So with less bomb placing, would be good. 

Execution -> 3 AP. 
-> 75 damage. (More at 215)
-> Incurable 2 lvls. (Maybe 0 incurable and +2 incurable per bomb, doesn't make a lot of sense to put incurable in a target that won't suffer much damage)
-> Per bomb placed, +1 incurable and +25 base damage. Max 3. 

This would make it a good mid burst option, to finish off a target after bomb explosion. Without to completely revamp/remove the base idea of the skill. 


Cross Fire
This skill is quite good as it is. Good for wombo combo. Maybe we can add a cool connection to it. 


Piercing shot
This skill could go the execution way.
Be a decent shot that gets improved somehow with bombs. Instead of having this WP interaction. 

Piercing shot:

4 AP 1 WP. 

125 damage. (More at 215)
 -> If we want to keep it as burst option: 
   -> More damage based on current turn explosions. 
 -> If we want to keep it as DPT, we can make some interaction with bomb placement, and powder wall. 

Mortar Combaaat:

This is an idea for a new skill. If we put bombs in bar 3. 


6 AP. BIG AoE damage. 
-> 120 damage. 2 tile AoE. 
-> More damage if used on top of a bomb, based on the current combo of the bomb. Also detonates the bomb.  ->Adds 3 turn cooldown. Man, mortar users need to rest. 

Big detonation to encourage long therm burst with excess for huge target focus damage. 

Earth Branch

-> Mid range AoE branch. It's lacking a theme.

Because of this, I want to propose this theme for earth branch. Landmines, being able to manipulate bombs to morph them into landmines. Thanks to Genn for this amazing idea. 

Some of the skills would be able to morph bombs if the skill is used into the bomb, and have a different effect if used on the target. Bombs could be morphed into mines, but not viceversa.

Characteristics of the mines: 
-> Every mine has his own effect. 
-> Mines are immobile and stab. 
-> Mines are undamageable. 
-> Mines will explode on contact. 
-> Mines don't occupy a tile. Like old bombs. 



Machine gun: 


This could be kept as a disengage skill. And having a better connection, because... 300 fixed damage on the next AoE skill... yeah...

Blam: 

Definitely, remove the combo points that it gives. Unbalances the skill and makes it mandatory. This could be the new blam.


Blam:

4 AP skill.
98 base damage at lvl 200. 
Still linear, modifiable range. 1-4 base range.
On the enemy; Removes -2 MP. 
On the bomb; Morphs the bomb into a paralyzing mine. 
 -> Paralyzing mine: Removes 3 MP when it explodes. 


Boomerang Dagger: 

The current connection just doesn't fit the class. Baseline, the class will play on critless builds because bombs don't crit. So this spell should be completely redesigned, at least his conection. 

 

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About mines, how about this passive:
when a mine is activated, it attracts everything linear to the tile of the mine, then explodes all the bombs within a circle of 2 from the mine

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Poggies, maybe an active for this :eyes:

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You would have to decrease the damage to make it fair

This sounds really good for the rogue. They should add a stasis mortar spell to foggernaut as well, but good idea for mortar combat 

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What damage should have to decrease? 
What are you refering to?

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we have got similar idea ,i m happy about it but im against 3 kind bomb spells in 3rd bar.
my idea is Rogue throws unelemented bombs by control count and triggers bomb elements by spell element or by bomboot and adds speciality by spells.As example ruse spell can add a speclality of -2mp into switched bomb and smoke can add -2 range if you cast them on a bomb or execution can add incure speciality if you cast it on a bomb or evanescenes can add -2wp before detonation or etc. ofcourse there must be a powder level system for group in my suggestion.

 

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Maybe having a lot of effects is overcomplicated, but unelemented bombs is something I really thought about. With a bit more of thinking it can be a good mechanic. 

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Hi dina, i found interesting the idea of landmines so i want to share some ideas for it

Earth branch:

Machine gun:
2AP  
56 damage ST 
 -> Casted on a bomb transform it into a landmine with -2MP effect 

Blaam:
3AP 
75 damage AoE 
  -> Transform the bombs into landmines and attack 3 cells the enemies to the targeted cell 
  -> If there's no bomb on the area increase it's damage by 30%
>2 use per turn

Silence:
4AP 
105 damage ST   
  -> Casted on a bomb transform it into an invisible landmine 
> keonda :v 

Push shot: 
4AP 
94 damage AoE 
    -> If a bomb is in the targeted cell transform it into a push landmine: pushes an enemy to another adyacent landmine and applies Pushed: Can't be pushed this turn again 

Pulsar: 
5AP 1WP
145 damage AoE 
   -> If a bomb is in the targeted cell transform it into a pulsar landmine: if the landmine is triggered the adyacent landmines triggers with it 

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Having invisible mines is dangerous, since they also benefit from combo. It's enough for them to be untargetable. 

I think your ideas are cool but we need clear mechanics for mines. 
Push shot is a bit complicated, and I don't really get what you meant for blam. 

Pulsar effect should be a baseline mechanic. If a landmine triggers should trigger adyacent bombs or landmines. It's part of its downside. 

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My main idea is the Gunner Rogue, I want him to be able to grab his bomb, like a Pandawa with his barrel, and that some of his spells change and consume combo

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Like you carry the bomb with certain combo, and you do certain things based on it?

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InneTokisaka|2020-07-22 03:43:58
My main idea is the Gunner Rogue, I want him to be able to grab his bomb, like a Pandawa with his barrel, and that some of his spells change and consume combo

Rogue is not a positioner class like  a panda. Rogue doesnt need to carry a bomb like panda.
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Yes, rogue is not a positioner
He has limits to move him and his bombs
I don't plan on removing it, but it interesting to have full synergy with an object

or do you want normal gunner roger without bombs, an Ocra 2.0?

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Don't make the whole Rogue's gameplay bound to bombs. Is as simple as that.

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I think you have a point. I still think that bombs should be a very important part of our gameplay

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(Text Wall)

If we are brainstorming here:

I feel like a gameplay based on multiple summons is something that doesn't work in Wakfu. Each battle has too many factors to take into account in order to successfully win a battle, having to manage multiple summons along with states, monster mechanics and space complicates the whole thing and this is something that Sadidas have shown this before with their dolls which many players decide to not use because of how capricious (rng) the AI can be (even if Bombs don't move around the same way dolls do, there's still the monster's AI which can mess up a lot of actions)

For me, the whole concept of the class needs to be reinvented. I like the idea of building up explosions, being tactical and using the field for your favor (this is what appeled me the most to create a Rogue) but I don't think the current Rogue is the way to do it, neither was the previous version where they lacked a tactical mechanic and the big damage they could deal was very free. The class needs to be re-reworked and this is a perfect time to do it, the Feca revamp brought a lot of new passives and ways to choose your gamestyle without effectively stacking roles on a single class, I really appreciate the effort from the Devs and out-of-the-box thinking of Siu concerning to various spells.

What I'd like to see in the class are more spells focused on annoying the rival and a more "Prankster" gameplay. A gamepaly that still requires tactical positioning, "charging" phases with a more versatile and direct style.

I feel like the bombs could be changed into Sticky Bombs that would, well, stick to the enemy. The more they have the bigger the explossion (of course, there should be a way to counter this). Mines could also be a good option, Rogues could be a great class focused on Hazzards and Sabotage, this could be an interesting niche to focus on. A difference of Sram's traps, Mines could be focused on lowering Range, MP, maybe Willpower (?), deal extra damage to summons, push enemies and so on.

Another interesting idea for bombs would be the ability to bury them. It would reduce their damage and AoE (idk, due to the ground absorbing part of the impact) but, in exchange, they could be untargetable. Maybe once the bomb is buried, it explodes in contact (thus turning it into a mine) or something.

Bombs should be still available in the class, but in the form of explosives or something that you don't have to babysit during several turns. It's just... playing Rogue right now feels so lonely even if you are in a group. If you just use your shots/daggers you are out-DPS'd by other classes and if you decide to focus on your bombs you are then disconected from the rest of your teammates, all that matters are the bombs and trying to stay alive for them. The class don't feel good in a party, I don't feel a dynamic contribution from the class, if the explosion works everyones cheers and compliments the Rogue... but if it doesn't everyone is like: oh, Hi rogue, I didn't see you there. And, as I've seen in various scenarios and levels from 1 to 200, most of the time the Rogues are just being carried by the team excluding very specific scenarios such as Plagogre where you want to OHKO the boss and bombs are the best way to do it.

The Conections mechanic... I don't dig it. It can be powerful when done right but, again, it doesn't fit Wakfu so much. The game has states and mechanics that are very dynamic and changing according to your actions. While a Slap Shot -> Barbacued Ribs x2 can be a very powerful combo from the back of enemy, it is situational, the fact that you can lose the conection just by moving 1 single square or using anyother spell makes you waste your already invested APs.

Concerning to Shots, this is were they can go crazy with ideas. Here are some (again, brainstorming):

  • Ammunition mechanic. Instead of WP the class could have Ammunition which is consumed by your shots. Some shots consumes more bullets, other don't, the game would be focused on managing the ammo and giving the class turns where they have to Reload. This would balance the spells and avoid having their most OP action available in every turn.
  • Give a Title to every branch,like: Cannoner (Fire). Sniper (Earth). Sapper/Prankster/Sabotage (Air)
  1. Cannoneer could have a bazooka, same as the Rogue from the Wakfu Trailer. This branch would be focused on stationary and strong attacks, razing with certain areas of the battlefield and requiring a good synergy with the Positioner of the group. It would be a tactical gameplay with turns where they'd need to charge and other when they release the shot. Maybe a spell that, due to the force of the impact, could push enemies back and deal extra damage if they collide against a wall (an interesting mechanic that was replaced by AP loss). Similar to what we have right now in the game but in a more direct way and less dependant of summons.
  2. Snipers -> precise shots. Shots such as Leg shots to cripple the movement of the enemy, headshots that affect their Willpower turning them vulnerable to MP/AP steals (synergy with support classes), bullets that riccochet to get to dead angles, a bulllet that could change elements to match the enemy weakness (like stasis).
  3. Pranksters -> Sabotage. Low damaging spells but with interesting and strategic effects. Maybe stacking debuffs on the enemy and having the ability to consume this debuffs to release a special effect or just damage. It could be an interesting mechanic that haven't been explored yet. Other spells could be the classic illusions (something that Rogues used to have in the Beta), stealing heals, maybe using the "Contrary" Ability from Pokemon where every buff turns into a debuff and viceversa (?), an ability that ignores Def buffs/damage debuffs. Tools to annoy the enemies but with a strong impact in the battle.

*Just a side note: if it is considered that having this 3 playstyles (heavy damager and pseudo support) mixed into a single class, it could be balanced in an easy way: Each style would require you to equip an specific gun through the use of an active spell (maybe a third bar), Once the gun is equipped (cannon, rifle or trinket box) it only makes it possible to use the spells related to this weapon during X turns. This way you'd have to decide how to fight the battle, a mechanic that Foggernauts already have in the game but with some adjustments and tweaks.

For Active Spells, I'm thinking of something like:
  • Equipping a second gun. This would allow the Rogue to along the main shot, fire this gun in the exact opposite symmetical direction similar to that Cloud Knight spell at the cost of Range.
  • Reload the gun. Having a spell which consists in reloading your spells (assuming that the ammunition mechanic is used) would balance their "strong turns" and giving the spells some sort of indirect Cooldown.
  • I'd like to see more spells that promotes the teamwork and group actions. Maybe adding a state that indicated a target to be focused on and getting extra damage to every ally that attacks it. Maybe a spell that let's you gang-up with your allies and deal a team attack to the enemy but would require your allies to be close to you or to the enemy, this would be a spell tricky to use and would motivate a more strategic positioning of your allies.

While all of this might sound interesting (or not), Passives are what really spice up the whole class and they are the ones that ultimately balance the character. Maybe there could be a passive that improves the effects from your air branch but loses damage turning into practically an utility branch, a passive that would let you charge your shot for 1 additional turn to get extra damage but reducing your HP in the process or getting some recoil, your earth shots require double ammo and gain more range, etc. 

As you can see, my idea for Rogue would be to turn the class into a Damager-Support class. Not with the already seen support through Heals and Armors but through special effects that aren't seen in other areas of the game that have a tactical purpouse, staying true to the main core of the class which is being strategic and cunning. I love what they did with K-Boom and the synergy with the bombs, giving FD% to your allies through explosions is brilliant.

In my opinion, I think that Rogues/Tricksters classes are the ones where Devs can just go crazy with their ideas (adjusting them to the necessity of the game of course). The class needs more interesting tools and a more versatile gameplay to be appealing in my opinion.

I like the idea of having a character that needs to build up their damage, but I feel that there are better ways to do it. A way that is in synchrony with the current state of the game.

 
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Holy diddlydoo, Good post man.

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Bomberman, have you played it before? It's legend. 

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Several obvious things about this class have obvious wip.

But changing earth is unnecessary. It works as is.

First thing, change piercing shot. It was good and strong when it had no conditional. But with the conditional, it's underpowered as hell. As a result of the conditional nerf as well, We simply don't have wp management issues. It's very hard for a Rogue to run out of wp w/o piercing shot. I think any class that has no trouble with wp is destined for misery.

MY idea for piercing would be 2ap 2 wp, 3k removal of armor, 3.3ap worth of damage(81 damage)

Second, Passives. Lots of awful passives in our arsenal while others are just straight op. Bommarogue and bomber fan both need some work. Bomber fan has potential to stay as is, Bombs naturally without bomber fan should become 5 per turn for 3 turns maximum, 15. With bomber fan it should become 7 per turn for 2 turns, 20 maxmium .

Bommarogue, honestly. Reconversion is a really ridiculous spell that shouldn't exist. But it does. Remove the boombot gains 1ap/2mp and add it to evovled gadgets. Leave reconversion as it's own passive. Ka-boom should be an active replacing smoke screen. Minesweeper should lose the 30% buff on allies. 2 ap badabang with -25% indirect damage +35% damage inflicted increased (increased direct damage for less powder wall damage). Several more passives added

Third, Elemental spells - Pulsar aoe push away from center 4 ap 1wp keep, current effect, damage scale accordingly.

Evanesence = Per connection current turn, increased air damage next turn, 10% per connection 50% cap. Keep the teleport. (not damage inflicted, but base damage increase)

Remove Blam, add an aoe earth spell (Maybe a bounce)

New active = 1ap 1 wp = 1 combo on bombs, +1 combo per consecutive use on same bomb, +1 wp per use. (TO replace blams potential increase.)(10 wp = 9 combo)

Crossfire = 4x damage to summons, if target is bomb, remove bomb, 2-3 wp gained.

Barbed fire = Attracts bombs 2 tiles on bomb, on enemy - reduced damage to mechanisms  20% damage + damage

Potentially add a passive (If bombs kill enemy per exploded bomb 1 extra wp).

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Good post, I can't agree with some things. But we are mostly on the same vibe

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I think it's really horrible how destroying a bomb leaves us with literaly nothing, and it's so hard to protect them when mobs can deal really heavy dmg to multiple targets. My idea is for destroyed bombs to leave some sort of remnants, let's say a powder. It could work like a powder wall or be "retrieved" by rogue to give additional stacks to the next cast bomb (half of the number of stacks destroyed bomb had maybe).

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Yeah, definitely. Bomb death should be less punishing. Also Rogue death should be less punishing. 

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I would love so much to have more positioning options for enemies besides boombot (and mass attract). It can be like dofus rogue's kick or magnet, it doesn't have to be that polarizing, I just want to be able to move enemies a bit sometimes. It's not like we are going to substitute pandas or anything...

I also kinda agree with having bombs as bar 3. If not, at least have boombot (this one feels like way too obligatory so it fits the bar 3 idea) and/or powder wall.

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:yes:

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