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rogue

By JonTurk - MEMBER - January 13, 2020, 15:15:20

fix that class...it is really limited against 200 lv mobs mechanics

im bored to open that topics sfix or just tell me that "leavethe game..".

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Score : 4559

For the first time ever I agree with JonTurk, fix rogues they are no fun to play. give them the good old enu2.0 treatment.

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RynthZero|2020-01-13 16:23:50
For the first time ever I agree with JonTurk, fix rogues they are no fun to play. give them the good old enu2.0 treatment.

meh , thats a thing
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Score : 751

Iop or Cra. Masqu is also a lot of fun to play but for a beginner it may be difficult to keep him alive, specially when the player doesn't know how to build it.

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Rogue needs 2 things in my opinion: more ways to use bombs, and more ways to protect all of its bombs.

All bombs really do is build for damage- that's their main purpose, but Rogue should have more ways to use their main mechanic. Eliotrope can use portals for several things outside of team-wide mobility: extending their range, raising their damage on certain spells, and probably other stuff I don't know about because I don't play Eliotrope. Pandawa can use Dizzy for a bunch of different things, like damage and debuffing and even healing. There are certainly more examples of this sort of thing, but this is really what Bombs lack: they really only have one purpose that Rogues can capitalize on, and are almost useless or inconvenient in a team environment. I'm not saying Rogues should be able to debuff, tank, and do damage all at the same time, or anything like that. They should just be able to do more with Bombs outside of damage, like every other class that has this type of mechanic that their entire kit is based around.

Onto the second thing. As it stands, moving several bombs is very difficult in one turn, especially since cross fire is bugged when moving multiple bombs, and protecting all of your bombs is difficult when the best you can do is barbed fire the bombs and hope, because it's so difficult to move them adequately and their resistance and hp isn't that high. And in order to move several bombs at once or heal several bombs and buff their resistance, the bombs need to be close together. Meaning, they're going to have to be in an AoE that tends to be very appealing to enemy monsters.

I'm not a game designer, so I have no idea how this would be remedied. I also don't know if making Rogue faster would fix anything. I think most people just want a Rogue that does damage quickly and without as much thought as Bombs currently require (because it's so hard to protect enough bombs for long enough to do damage).

Another rework would probably help Rogue, but I also don't want it to lose the importance of its main mechanic (bombs) like so many people seem to want. That's really what scares me the most about another rogue rework: it just sounds like people want the old Rogue whose air branch was basically Iop, whose earth branch was basically Cra, and whose fire (bomb) branch, the only branch that was really unique to rogue, was ultimately very weak in comparison and gave people the idea that bombs were irrelevant to Rogue's class identity in the first place.

It's a really tricky thing to rework, though, since if we want a Rogue that can, say, do direct damage every turn with a gun or dagger, like so many people seem to want, we have to figure out a way for Rogue to raise its damage dealt without that damage dealt applying to bombs.

I think it's far more helpful to actually suggest ideas on what to do with rogue rather than just say 'pls change it'. So let's make this thread about ideas for what could be done with Rogue to make it more fun to play without it losing its class identity.

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Heh, tricky.

I agree on your mindset, not so much on the bombs. Rogues are bombs and also guns, trickery, etc. To be honest, I would have expected it to be the trap class instead of Sram (yes, I know about Firewall and I'd like more of that), and a rework done by me would try to diversify the toolkit (definitely working on the versatility of bombs) and steer it towards some kind of support-based DD. In fact I'd like to take the enu debuff for the Rogue because it just sounds fun for a tricky class to be somewhat weak and instead make the opponent weaker.

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Loka-|2020-01-17 21:52:56
Rogue needs 2 things in my opinion: more ways to use bombs, and more ways to protect all of its bombs.

Spoiler (click here to show spoiler)

All bombs really do is build for damage- that's their main purpose, but Rogue should have more ways to use their main mechanic. Eliotrope can use portals for several things outside of team-wide mobility: extending their range, raising their damage on certain spells, and probably other stuff I don't know about because I don't play Eliotrope. Pandawa can use Dizzy for a bunch of different things, like damage and debuffing and even healing. There are certainly more examples of this sort of thing, but this is really what Bombs lack: they really only have one purpose that Rogues can capitalize on, and are almost useless or inconvenient in a team environment. I'm not saying Rogues should be able to debuff, tank, and do damage all at the same time, or anything like that. They should just be able to do more with Bombs outside of damage, like every other class that has this type of mechanic that their entire kit is based around. Onto the second thing. As it stands, moving several bombs is very difficult in one turn, especially since cross fire is bugged when moving multiple bombs, and protecting all of your bombs is difficult when the best you can do is barbed fire the bombs and hope, because it's so difficult to move them adequately and their resistance and hp isn't that high. And in order to move several bombs at once or heal several bombs and buff their resistance, the bombs need to be close together. Meaning, they're going to have to be in an AoE that tends to be very appealing to enemy monsters. I'm not a game designer, so I have no idea how this would be remedied. I also don't know if making Rogue faster would fix anything. I think most people just want a Rogue that does damage quickly and without as much thought as Bombs currently require (because it's so hard to protect enough bombs for long enough to do damage). Another rework would probably help Rogue, but I also don't want it to lose the importance of its main mechanic (bombs) like so many people seem to want. That's really what scares me the most about another rogue rework: it just sounds like people want the old Rogue whose air branch was basically Iop, whose earth branch was basically Cra, and whose fire (bomb) branch, the only branch that was really unique to rogue, was ultimately very weak in comparison and gave people the idea that bombs were irrelevant to Rogue's class identity in the first place. It's a really tricky thing to rework, though, since if we want a Rogue that can, say, do direct damage every turn with a gun or dagger, like so many people seem to want, we have to figure out a way for Rogue to raise its damage dealt without that damage dealt applying to bombs. I think it's far more helpful to actually suggest ideas on what to do with rogue rather than just say 'pls change it'. So let's make this thread about ideas for what could be done with Rogue to make it more fun to play without it losing its class identity.


Loka and her dilemmas are everywhere
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Humbly do I ask: do you have 2 cents to contribute to this worthy cause, oh great Jonturk?

Okay, but in all seriousness: I'd really love if you shared your opinion on the issue, since we both do agree that current rogue needs some work. : )

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Captchphrase|2020-02-06 03:47:53
You seem focused in bombs though, for some reason. For others, me included, pistols are the distinctive of Rogues. You can even find a Rogue with closed eyes, just folow the PEW PEW! sounds.

I mean, yeah, I generally am focused on bombs because that's what I personally like about Rogue. But there's a lot to like beyond bombs, so I don't disagree with you. Rogue has a lot of stuff going for it, but bombs are their main mechanic and that can make it tricky when it comes to their themeing, because their themeing is that they use a lot of different weapons with flashy results (hence why they're a setup class). 

With guns, there's so much they could do that would be fun, but the base damage and passives are two low and two few for it to really work out as it stands right now. Even the shank branch (the knives and daggers and swords), which also do need improvement, at least have connections. Rogue's gun spells have almost nothing, though guns do have a little more synergy with bombs than the blade spells do.

I think they could do a lot of cool things with using bombs as utility for gun spells, since bombs are like sacks of gunpowder and a Rogue's main gun are different forms of the Blunderbuss. Using bombs in some way to enhance or power up gun spells would be neat- or using guns to create larger explosions would be kind of cool. But here I am focusing on bombs again, lol. Let's focus on guns specifically, right?

I think guns really need like, their own mechanic to make them powerful, kind of like how old rogue had Runaway, which boosted Distance mastery, and Fusilade. I also think Scope direly needs a buff, because as it stands the passive actually makes Rogue weaker at rank 2. Making Pulsar more like how it is in Dofus so that it doesn't consume all your MP would be nice, and the majority of the gun spells need their base damage raised. For reference on just how bad it is in Rogue's earth branch, the standard Damage Per AP is 25.

Machine Gun's DPAP is 22.67.
Blunderbuss' DPAP is 22.75.
Boomerang Dagger's DPAP is also 22.75.
Pulsar's DPAP is 34, but it costs a Wakfu point and deletes all of your MP, so it's hardly ever worth it.

Sure, all of these spells are AoE, so it's not a surprise that their DPAP is lower, but when you look at other damage dealing classes like Cra, Ouginak, even Pandawa (Not typically a DD), and especially Sram, their DPAP is much higher, even on their AoE spells, and if it isn't, they have ways to increase that damage that Rogue lacks entirely. Pandawa isn't even a standard damage dealing class! Even Eniripsa has higher base damage on some of it's AoE attacks. I'm sure there are more examples than just these, but this shows how pathetic the damage is. Seriously. I checked.

So Gun Rogue is definitely in dire need of a buff. Their base damage is just atrociously low for no good reason, and seeing how Sram's AoE base damage got buffed even though it was already atrociously high, it just makes no sense to not buff Rogue's gun spells' base damage. Seriously, look at Sram's AoE Spells like Forceful Blow and look at the base damage, and compare that to the also 4 AP Blunderbuss. It's ridiculous. I'm not asking for Rogue to get anything that's forceful blow level of stupidly powerful, but if they buffed that, they can buff Rogue's gun spells, too. I might have been quietly salty about it for a while lol
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Rogue is barely  based on bombs. They place bombs and use spells. Hope your team is based around the bombs too. Not a very fun playstyle. I don't think I would mind bombs damage lowered if we played around them a different way, other than position the bomb and hope you have enough combo the next turn. We have ALOT of damage increasing spells for Bomb, IMO instead of giving Rogue mobility, I would've much preferred if they gave us stronger lifesteal and giving us back the bomb control . I feel my Rogue is playing against 3 different opponents at all times, Your team, Your enemy and your Bombs. It's really not fun.

Anyways my suggestion

Remove our mobility and durabliity (maybe even a bit of damage) in favour of lifesteal and bomb control. Because we have very little to do with our bombs currently, I 'd prefer our team protect the Rogue than Play with our bombs. I'm fine with the Enemy having the ability to counter our bombs, it gives a lot of counter play.

Rogues are pretty much CRAs without direct damage..There's very little that Rogue does that CRA doesn't do every turn.

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Okay I have to correct this because the claim that Rogues are barely based on bombs annoys the heck out of me every time I hear it.

Pop quiz, my guy: Each class should have something that makes them different from other classes, right? 

Fecas have shields (Bubble, Magma, Orb)
Osamodas have pokemon-esque summons
Enutrofs have prospecting, mines, drhellers
Srams have traps, poisons, and invisibility
Xelors have their AP shenanigans
Ecaflips have lucky day and luck based stuff (tarot, huge fluctuations in base damage, etc.) and fleas
Eniripsa has big healing, its marks, and Propogator and it's relevant uses
Iop has brawling, swords, and all these ways to charge into enemies and beat them up
Cra has its bow and arrows, of course
Sadidas have dolls
Sacriers have Angrr and Sacrifice so that they both literally take damage for allies and get stronger the more they're hit
Pandawa has its different states like Worn Out and Merry (based on being drunk)
Masqueraiders have masks
Ouginaks have Prey and turning into a really cool big dog- they make it very difficult for an enemy to kite them. They also have Fury
Foggernauts have stasis, in a nutshell... (rails, motherfogger, fogginator, overheating, etc.)
Eliotrope has Portals
Huppermage has QB/Light Spells and access to all four elements

So what's Rogue's thing that makes them unique as a class? It's not daggers or swords- that's covered by Sram, Iop, and even Ouginak. It's not Guns: Foggernaut has a gun, and the special thing being guns would make Rogue just a Cra with gunpowder, and if that's the case why even have Rogue as a separate class?

It's bombs, my dude. Bombs are the unique thing about Rogue. So yes, Rogue is, in fact, usually based on bombs, and if after all of this you still think otherwise, well, that's your loss. The problem with bombs in wakfu is that you can't do a whole lot with them other than damage, and they're hard to keep alive, especially in earlier levels. Additionally, the game promotes killing things as fast as possible, which by nature, Rogues don't do because they're supposed to plan things out like the criminal masterminds they are. I have feelings on that too, but it's irrelevant.

Rogues need work in a lot of areas, for sure, but it's incredibly misguided and, frankly, incredibly misleading to say that Rogues aren't based on bombs.

TL;DR

What do Rogues have that makes them unique compared to other classes? Bombs.

PS: Bombs are direct damage right now

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Since bombs can do so much damage, ankma probably had to remove damage from other spells.
A fix that probably could work for people that don't like/want to play with bombs would be to increase damage on some spells, but add a condition to remove some of the damage if there are bombs on the battle. Ex:
Slap Shot
Damage: 63
(-10 damage for each bomb in play)

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I am willing to do -90% dmg if I can empty my guns, like with old Rogue again, every so few turns and make new holes to breath on enemies.

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Captchphrase|2020-02-06 16:19:04
That's your opinion though, bombs were never a thing for me, not even when the wall of fire was supposedly in rage. Bombs always felt clunky, slow and overall in the way. In contrast spam gunshots or oneshot a big crit in a turn was way more stysfacting. There's also the fact that in higher levels is probably harder to catch mobs in the explosions since they move a LOT more (I say probably because after the bomb revamp my Rogue became insufferable).

Ofc, if Ankama is able to make bombs fun then I am totally in but if I want to summon a helper to increase my dmg output I would play Sadida or Osamodas. Dunno, make the bomb some kind of mark, like Eni? and each turn the Rogue can apply one atk to trigger or charge some effect on the bomb? That would make the dynamic simpler but dunno if that would actually work.

Immediate one-shotting seems to always be more satisfying to most players on wakfu, but frankly, it's not even how a turn based so called strategic mmo should work, but I have a lot of feelings on that and that's not the topic lol. At lower stasis play, immediate one-shotting should totally be a thing. But when you get to like, s21, s31, and beyond, you should have to do more thinking than that.

And no, there's not a lot of strategy if you're killing things turn one, because you're just hitting things with a spell and they're dying. There's no preparation: it's just your stats and hitting stuff. That's not strategy. That's just having good gear and high damage per AP.

I play games like Wakfu because I want strategy. I want to actually think about what I'm doing over the course of several turns in order to wreck the enemy on a massive scale. It's why I've mained Rogue for almost six years. I get that some people just wanna kill stuff fast and I'm sure that gun damage will be buffed in the future, given how bad it is right now as I've stated before.

But Bombs being Rogue's unique mechanic isn't an opinion. It's literally a fact. It's right there. I just explained this. I seriously don't understand why people refuse to see it. I feel like I'm gonna have to go get Ankama to say it and even then people will tell me I'm wrong or that it's my opinion.

If Bombs weren't Rogue's unique mechanic, why on earth have they not removed bombs, since so many people hate them?

Gosh that gets me so worked up. Anyways,

Sure, we should probably have more options to use bombs as a secondary thing to boost our gun damage, for example, but bombs will never be going away like so many people seem to want. They will always be a part of Rogue's kit, and if you refuse to use them, you shouldn't perform as well as if you did use them.

Why? Because it's like refusing to use portals as Eliotrope. It's possible, for sure, and like, maybe it'll be okay, but you won't do as well because you're not using your class' unique mechanic.

Bombs are also really obtuse and hard to use though, and they have an extremely steep learning curve. Rogue, for all of its current focus on bombs, does not have a lot of ways to interact with bombs beyond mobility, damage, and very limited debuffs/buffs. And, at lower levels, bombs die all the time because you can't protect them very well. These are legit problems and I absolutely acknowledge it needs work.

But again, even with old Rogue that had stronger damage attacks like earth branch Piercing Shot. You could just use knives like BBQ BBQ BBQ Slap Shot Slap Shot, or Fusilade Pulsar/Piercing Piercing/whatever, but you did at best 2/3 of the damage you'd do, counting both turn 1 and turn 2 damage, than if you set up the bomber fan firewall the first turn. I know this because I did the math and testing back then to prove it. But even that was using bombs in order to make your shank attacks or gun attacks stronger, and that was something that was good and something I'd like to see more of.

I wish we could do more with bombs outside of damage, and I wish bombs were easier to protect and maneuver. But rogue just doesn't have the tools it needs for that, and it's hard to figure out how they'd actually do it, mechanically. 

 
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what on earth am i reading here.. ofc rogue is defined by having bombs thats not a wakfu thing its almost any other work of fiction ever and outside of fiction too.

also the one who refuses to use bombs coz guns.. Mate im primarly a gun rogue but i still use bombs for one theyre amaizing source of mobility the ammount of movement you can pull out in 1 turn puts elios to absolute shame theyre also wp regen..

And most importantly theyre a zoning ability chuking 2-3 bombs over time to area to prepare for new pierce makes the area with the bombs a zone where no one will ever go if they value their hp and if someone goes there thats UR DAMN WAKFU BACK and EXTRA DMG..


just damn people stop not using mechanics just cause you dont like it. Use them diferently and a find a way to like it.

Thats what i did and im having fun.

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Every class has good points and bad points like how each player has different tastes. Your sense of liking seems kind of warped though, if you don't like something then is your own dangit right to cut it out of your life, obviously after some consideration about gains and loses. In a videogame thought, where we players are supposed to enjoy ourselves there should be nothing to force us, no profit lose, no a broken long lasting friendship, in using a feature that we don't like, is all on each of us if we continue nonetheless. Lots of friends quit the game over the years and I respect their choices, I keep playing Wakfu because I have things that still enjoy though ^^ 100% gave up on the Rogue after a week of the bomb revamp though, not playing with it till those annoing bomb mechanics disappear.

Honestly though, even with the stress coming from what you wrote above hope that you are having fun.

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@Loka I think you didn't read the post. Current rogue is barely based around bombs. They just place them. They don't really use their turns to operate the mechanic. Similarly Feca really wants  the enemy to be on their glpyhs or Panda is always ALWAYS playing around their barrel. That isn't really the case for  Rogues. Our mechanics are basically place bomb and have team manipulate them.

Trust me no one needs you to explain what a mechanic is. No one, you shouldn't do it either, it makes you look bad. 

My point was,  current rogue doesn't really have the ability to use their own bombs effectively. We just place them and have other people use them. We do that for every mechanic in the game. Like for example, My panda always places a mob on Feca glpyh when it's available, Feca could do it themselves but Panda can do it efficiently as well and double up on it. That's not really the case for Rogue, Edit: Rogue expects his team to use an excess of AP to set up his bombs and wait for him get an adequte amount of combo to explode it. Unless bombs were all in one place (asking to get aoe'd) he team would have to set it up.

I think we should have a spell that can move at least 2 bombs 1-5 squares linearly (or atleast two uses on the spell) every turn within atleast 1-5(range modifiable) squares of the rouge, if there needs to be an explaination just have it as "Rogue calls a friend to help move his bombs and have a NPC come kick the bomb for you". I would rather Rogues damage be reduced by a bit to give us that back and have our Mobility completely gone(Because I think it's a waste anyways, we already have Boombot to do some amazing stuff).

I imagine Rogue would be much cooler as a map manipulator than a kiter anyways.  I like the idea that rogues other spells being more map control abilities. Like Rogue throws a molotov cocktail (each element leaves something on the tile like fire has burning on the spot for 2 turns, air pushes them away from the spot at the start of the turn and earth makes the area unable to walk. I would argue they could leave other spells as is except claw since we don't want more mobility.

TL;DR You didn't read the post, I said Rogues should be able to manipulate their bombs better (It was in the first sentence).I don't like Rogue having extreme amounts of mobility and low control over their bombs. I would rather take some damage from their spells to have more bomb control. ( I really like the Molotov idea above). I don't like kiting as Rogue at all, Boombot is more than enough mobility for me. There's very little difference between Rogue and Cra currently, except Rogue is harder to play. I don't like it. Honestly after I place bombs I just buff an ally for that turn, my ap is bettter spent on them till I explode bombs

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Score : 1912

wait what?

rogue has 4 abilities that can change the placement of a bomb some of witch are extremely powerful. So im not seeing how you can not manipulate bombs thing here at all especially since before the revamp there wasnt a lot less leeway to move em

before you either made a carpet or nest where panda chucked the target now carpet is gone but you have the powder line and nesting is still very viable since not only can you repos mobs (as in plural multiple mobs in 1 turn) but you can move your whole bomb nest to them.

i am fairly certain that rogue has more ways to interact with a bomb than panda with a barrel or cra with a beacon. As personally tho i like rogue mobility what kind of a outlaw dastardly weapons expert cant run if things get hairy? it fits with the lore of pick your battles or run the f out

rogue is map manipulator already and fairly strong one you can move people, create zones where no one can go or block paths how is that not map manipulation.. You can also stap enemy map manipulators or yourself to prevent geting counter mapped.

i personally dont like dps bombing as i find it boring so i opted using mobs vastly differently than others and my playstyle is centered interacting with the bomb as i need to reposition them a lot to move where i want to

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well im happy Community start to see how rogue is broken and they are teaching broken points for @Loka ^^ ,Loka still uses bombs to pen mobs in corner. Yes bombs are OP but if they are similar element and if amout is 2-3 otherwise they are expensive and easy to be deleted by zenit mobs area attacks.

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Captchphrase|2020-02-07 13:18:32
Every class has good points and bad points like how each player has different tastes. Your sense of liking seems kind of warped though, if you don't like something then is your own dangit right to cut it out of your life, obviously after some consideration about gains and loses. In a videogame thought, where we players are supposed to enjoy ourselves there should be nothing to force us, no profit lose, no a broken long lasting friendship, in using a feature that we don't like, is all on each of us if we continue nonetheless. Lots of friends quit the game over the years and I respect their choices, I keep playing Wakfu because I have things that still enjoy though ^^ 100% gave up on the Rogue after a week of the bomb revamp though, not playing with it till those annoing bomb mechanics disappear.

Honestly though, even with the stress coming from what you wrote above hope that you are having fun.



its not stress as much of bizarre wtf is happening moment.

what im saying is find a way to like them no one forces to use em on one big clumb to blow up, i dont myself as stressed earlier for me theyre wakfu regen, mobility and zoning i rarely if ever deal bomb dmg so vast majority of my dmg comes from pulsar, pierce, execute

you have myriad of ways utilising the bombs and how can you know weather you like them or not if you havent at least tried to use them creativly?

and sure you can cut elements of the game you dont like no one is forcing you but bomb abd rogue are tied to togheter very neatly since they are also the wakfu recover method and gun rogue eats A LOT of wakfu if you want to survive with guns and refuse to play bombs to get wakfu back etc youre limiting yourself not only by wakfu wise, dmg, wise, mobility wise, map wise but gameplay wise

ow also the last sentence of my earlier point was pretty clear as i said i was having fun with my twisted style

 
Hearttyace|2020-02-07 21:23:09
That is not true Kachamrak by itself has 3 different uses for Barrel, Every single earth spell interacts with  barrel, Barrel itself interacts with Panda every turn,  Many of these you expect to do every turn. That's despite placing Barrel itself, moving it or moving it to re position yourself(which Rogue can do those 3 so I didn't mention it) .

You're either giving combos to bombs or bomb wall. 

Rogues map manipulation isn't strong at all. Everything that you just said Rogue does is done by Sadida far more effectively, and it's not a good thing with how they do it. If that held any truth people would take them over Panda(People are willing to take Xelor/Sram over Panda though, that's some good map manipulation). You can not move bombs  effectively without your team. It's simply designed that way(I can pull a Dev response that said this too). The influx of complaints show this as well. You could nest bombs but they will get AoE'd unless your entire team actively protects and plays around it. 

I also never said Bombwall was a problem. I think it's an alright idea. An arguable step in the right direction, but hardly effective since it's counter productive to bomb's design in the first place. Again not a bad idea, but the current design is counter-intuitive.

As to them being outlaws and escaping anything. That is broad and could be used about any class like Sadida should be able to get away - They use the forest to travel faster, or Enus should be able to get their money and leave. Why is panda literally the most mobile class in the game? There's no real logic behind why they can fly across the map like no ones business to"ANY TILE".  but I'd be pissed if I lost Barrel hop. Shit I was pissed when I lost unlimited Barrel hop.  Anyways, Master of Illiusion and Ruse sound far less elusive than Sram's Shadow, sounds akin to a control mage than anything which is what I expect.

Also, the whole before the revamp they had less control is just isn't true. Having more of something doesn't result in value. Bombs prior didn't take up map space(Making it harder to move them through objects) , and you had a spell that could literally pick up a bomb and throw it anywhere unconditionally for 1 ap. But there's also other factors like bombs having actual counterplay now and being vulnerable at all times. Bombs practically work the same as before but require more work. You would prefer to nest them together currently since it requires more resources(AP/MP) to get them together for the explosion. 

Edit: I really do try to use Bomb Rogue but often times  direct damage rogue is straight more useful in a party. I have a Panda, and Eliotrope in my 6 man party.  They're better off doing damage themselves than using bomb.


karcha having 3 diferrent ways to interact with the barrel is kinda moving the goal post here but imma ignore that one. What i am not ignoring however id the weird mentality that in order to be map manipulator you need to be the absolute best in it

that is weird mentality a class is supposed to have strength and weaknesses that vary in strength also. no sadida is not better map manipulator than rogue not even close sadis manipulation is basicly kmir and the buff wind spell thingy that pushes 1 cell and block doll sadi can also zone wtih the manifold or least could at one point when casting it on the empty cells it created glyphs dunno if it still do but.

kmir has low range and you need to use ur mp to move the target further, the 1 cell buff is expensive and pushes 1 cell and doesn't buff if you dont hit center so buff and move is not an option. And with the block doll you need to summon up and have him summon block doll who eats 1 ctrl now wich is reserved now to that doll.

meanwhile rogue has boombot wich is basicly kmir with A LOT longer range that is not limited to your mp and can be used on 3 other people.. You can move 3 people with 2ap and 1 wakfu how exactly is this not strong map manipulation? not only you can move people but as with the nature of bombs you can block mobs off meaning you can save squishy by walling em behind walls and not to mention rogues own mobility rogue can in 1 turn go on any large ecaflip pvp maps each courner and end in starting spot and no im not over joking as iv done this.

speaking of this i listed the abilities that move the bomb itself rogue still has A LOT more spells that interact with the bomb in other ways i am a religious user of claw as its 5 cell tp with 2 ap. But we also have 2 ap tp cells based on bombs distance and gain combo on next melee spell then you have blunderbus, detonating that can be augmented to have more funtions and then theres kaboom.. vast majority of rogue spells interact or benefet the caster if casted on the bomb.

iv not when i rarely use bombs to deal dmg yet to need anyone to move my bombs around not one occaision where i am not able to reach my bomb and move it myself and im not focused on that im focused on moving myself sure ankama might have intended team having to help but did they specify what kind of rogue you need to be in order this to be an issue?

rogue has myriad of ways to build if youre rangless melee rogue then maeby you need others but if youre going map mani youre not going to build melee anyways.

have you done any other rogue builds than the cookie-cutter buff bomb and blow it up one? coz im starting to think you havent broken out of the mold at all with rogue oO

ow and old rogue.. yeah sure having few spells to move a bomb dosent make it as versatile it is now for starters you can do still do that with boot sure you need linear but lets be honest here the old skill made you use mp to reposition the bomb and to get the other bomb would become harder since no mp to get the others. sure you could stay near em and just move em bit further away but current rogue can repos bombs from one edge of the map to other wich the old one simply couldnt do in large map.

also panda is not the most mobile class in-game.. sure it is mobile but have you seen mobility rogue for example in action? coz that's what im playing and i can run 4 corners of any eca map and still have mobility to left over..

edit in new post since forums refuse me to edit in post or when it opens it to edit it just deletes all txt.. what on earth is going on here ankama..


anyways soz for hard to read txt i just woke up and my english is kiiinda crappy when im not fully woken up
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Score : 1898

I'm so sick and tired of explaining to people that bombs are factually rogue's unique mechanic, and that how the game is now, wakfu doesn't like set up classes that take more than one turn to do damage like Rogue, so I'm just going to stop trying. It's like talking to a bunch of brick walls. Why am I even trying?

Y'all believe whatever you want to believe. Rogue will be changed eventually, but bombs will always be its unique mechanic and they will never be removing them. I'm way too tired of this to deal with it anymore. Have fun.

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Score : 751

If everyone else in the world is crazy, are you really the only sane one?

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Loka-|2020-02-11 21:04:22
I'm so sick and tired of explaining to people that bombs are factually rogue's unique mechanic, and that how the game is now, wakfu doesn't like set up classes that take more than one turn to do damage like Rogue, so I'm just going to stop trying. It's like talking to a bunch of brick walls. Why am I even trying?

Y'all believe whatever you want to believe. Rogue will be changed eventually, but bombs will always be its unique mechanic and they will never be removing them. I'm way too tired of this to deal with it anymore. Have fun.



Classic @Loka  reply..
Noone said remove and give us bombless gameplay.
We only say here...
without 3 bombs ,rogue cant survive against mob groups,mostly for solo.
and each turn ,rogue gameplay forces you to place 2 bombs in same turn.
Mostly they are  being Fire-Earth or Air _fire Bombs.
Mostly 2 Mobs are enough to remove one or two of your bomb in high levels.
if they remove your high level bombs, your APs are being wasted, and you are trying from stratch....
Each round 5-7 ap and NO damage.. and interacting or protecting your bombs are hardest than an Osa's summon or sadida's dolls. at least sadida dolls are interacting after summoned.
7 ap and repositioning is 2 ap and limited...
Spell ranges are worse...You can only use twice boot spell if you have got 5-6 bombs around some of them will be unprotected cuse of cooldowns...
Everything hs been limited... Each positioning action in your DECK and it doesnt allow you more attacking spell or support spells to add to deck. already Rogue has been limited about ranges and combat style with element kind and with connections.
weird "6 wp"  cooldown for peircing shot.
weird all mp removal with pulsar shot even itis not your first action
and you still guardinng this broken role..




 
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Score : 751

Bombs suck.

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As a main rogue for some years, imo next changes shouldn't be aiming to remove/ nerf rogue's main mechanics ( which are BOMBS | tactical gameplay lol ) in order to comeback again with the old braindead rogue, such a spamer of air brunch or earth shots ( not mentioning the ridiculous + 20 ap pulsar with buffs)... The idea for new rogue was nice I really like it, a rogue plenty of passives, spells to do their thing with bombs...basically a unique class the most strategic one. Maybe they lack a bit of enemy crowd control to manipulate mobs or ways to defend your own bombs each turn. I'm aboard of Loka's point of view in that part. I undertand people likes to hit like a truck each turn, it's ok dude at the end of the day you are a damager but I think rogue can do both if they do several changes so you can choose by spells/passives which style you play ( burst tactical damager- another common dmager class -.-). Some solutions might be increase some basic scaling like she said, adding different efects/connectios to get better value from them, adding some passive to buff stats playing as non-bomb rogue/ rework scope and fugitive.. I quite dont see a proper way to use those two. By how the end game is make it and ppl wanting changes they should do viable rogue.. let's say dagger-gunner? despite I hate that type of rogue ^^' .

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Score : 4903

What if BLAM also pushed all bombs in the AoE 2 or 3 cells?

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Score : 1912

 

Hearttyace|2020-02-14 02:27:27
I'm not sure who said this. Where's the reading comprehension? I could cut something anyone said and make it seem like they said "take away bombs" Unless you're not reading full post thus not getting full context. What's the problem?

There's literally a post under this that mentions that you did this "again".

On another note, I stopped arguing with the other one because He's nitpicking arguments and neither of us can provide video proof of it(I guess I can, but they'll be holes since it's not my video and I don't plan on subbing 2 accounts again to prove a point)

But back on topic - You do bring up an interesting point. Rogue should perform better under less turns. I'm all for reducing damage in favour of an easier time pulling off 2 turn burst. In perfect gear I can imagine a Rogue wouldn't worry too much about a mob wiping bombs off the face of the earth within one turn. At level in normal unruned equips, they can do that. 

I'd love a passive to force all bombs to detonate on second turn. This assumes the passive would do more than just force bombs to detonate next turn it would adjust things to balance the damage.  (All bombs can now be summoned 2 per turn and all bombs may only have 2 on field,  Bombs start at 4 combo, max combo 12,  bombs explode next turn)

I also don't like how expensive moving bombs are, They're limited  positioning spells already, I don't need each of them to cost 2 ap. You place bomb for 4 ap you move it the next turn for 2 ap. It's then broken on third turn. that's 6 ap for on bomb gone. God forbid it's an AOE. That's huge counter play.



are you referring to me? Where did i nitpick? who said i cant provide proof in form if video? i do have obs recording my mob rog in action is not any kind of a problem also you dont need any recording to just look at the abilities and looking at the map size but ok?
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