FR EN ES PT
Browse forums 
Ankama Trackers

Suggestions for Rogue

By Cantarzo - MEMBER - September 11, 2019, 02:13:31

Hi everyone,
First, English is not my native language, so feel free to correct any mistake...
I have some ideas for the obviously bad Rogue, I’ll try to expose my points as clear as possible so you guys can understand and comment what you think…

Problem (PvE only)

Talking to some friends and playing with the Rogue I concluded that the main problem with it is the way it must be played right now. Basically, the only viable build to play is through building up the bombs. I understand that bombs are the idea behind the class and the basis for the rework, that is not the real problem. What I see as the real problem is the fact that it takes too long for build the bombs and, while you are building them, you cannot hit the monsters.I know Rogue can be played, I know the dmg of the bombs is awesome when full stacked, but even if you try to use the awful air combo while the bombs are building up you still can’t have fun on PvE. It is just too frustrating to pass 2 turns doing nothing or dealing almost no dmg, just the insane dmg on the 3 or 4 turn is not good enough.

Ideas

Based on the problem I just described, I think the mechanics of Rogue must be rethink once again (keeping the same idea but making it more enjoyable to play in PvE).

New Combo Mechanic

  •          The combo mechanic should be a Rogue stat instead of a bomb stat. Almost all the skills that have to be built to deal high dmg in Wakfu are this way, it works.
  •          Once the combo stacks on the Rogue, it can’t be per turn as it is right now, so it should stack based on the skills used, like other skills from other classes.
  •          When you have some stacks (the dmg interaction and number of max stacks can be changed based on the number of skills that generate a stack and the number of stacks that you can generate per turn in order to keep it balanced) you would explode the bombs and consume the combo.

New Bomb Active Skill
  •          If you are hitting monsters, you can’t afford to spend 4 AP (maybe 3 AP would be ok) on a skill to be used 2-3 turns in the future (counting that the bombs survives) so the bombs should be changed to an active skill with lower cost instead of the 3 skills that we have now (with or without limit of uses per turn and/or limit of bombs on the field).
  •       Considering that the bombs now have no element, the old bomb skills must be changed to skills that explode the bombs with the element of choice.
  •          No need for Detonation, Badabang can be an active buff.

New Skills (with focus on stacking combo and deal dmg)
  •         The Rogue already has an awesome mobility in the air branch, that part don’t need to be changed, but the air dmg must be rebalanced (higher dmg should be fire, but the air dmg should be at least viable).
  •          The earth branch could be for melee dmg and MP removal and better gameplay with the bombs.
  •          The fire branch for higher dmg (in case someone wants to do a build with almost no bombs – only for WP recover).
9 -4
Reply
Reactions 23
Score : 263

rogue can be good in pve . its just a matter of skills and playstyle preference . its not 3-4  turns tho . 1 turn is the build up second turn u mostliky gonna blow 3 fire bombs and 2 other bombs of some sort 
well moving bombs around and trying to come up with a set up isnt realy passing doing nothing 

im not a rogue player but my personal opinion about this is that ive seen many ppl playing it  in pve and doing great  . and after seeing that  it isnt right shifting ur incompetance playing the class on the class it self 
 

 

Datsuki|2019-09-11 10:45:02
Actually you can't blow 3 fire bombs at second turn, because you can summon only one fire bomb per turn.

But I got the point from Cantarzo. It's not about if it can be played or not, it's about improving its playstyle.

Moving bombs and building up bombs has almost no impact in the fight, until you explode it. And if you do it at the second turn with 4 bombs , as you suggested, I don't think the dmg will worth it (if you calculate amount of dmg / AP spent)

I think you should at least try to play it before you call him imcopetent. We asked many main rogue players, and they pretty much would disagree with you.

The Rogue IS PLAYABLE, that's not what he meant by posting his suggestions here.

using bombbot and proper spells u can get 3 fire bombs with 18+ combos in the second turn 
5 -9
Reply
Score : 1087
Actually you can't blow 3 fire bombs at second turn, because you can summon only one fire bomb per turn. <- my bad

But I got the point from Cantarzo. It's not about if it can be played or not, it's about improving its playstyle.

Moving bombs and building up bombs has almost no impact in the fight, until you explode it. And if you do it at the second turn with 4 bombs , as you suggested, I don't think the dmg will worth it (if you calculate amount of dmg / AP spent)

I think you should at least try to play it before you call him imcopetent. We asked many main rogue players, and they pretty much would disagree with you.

The Rogue IS PLAYABLE, that's not what he meant by posting his suggestions here.

cawleerr|2019-09-11 07:36:23

im not a rogue player but my personal opinion about this is that ive seen many ppl playing it  in pve and doing great  . and after seeing that  it isnt right shifting ur incompetance playing the class on the class it self 
 


So, first, I would like to request you to keep the respect here. Arguing with offenses is not the point of this topic.
10 -6
Score : 318

 

cawleerr|2019-09-11 12:27:05
like i said u not knowing that u can get 3 bombs pretty much max combo in the second turn  is just a matter of skills and experience with the class . the thing is the diversity of builds for each class make different opinions . making the combo for the bombs stack in the rogue's is just making more similar dmg dealers . working hard for ur combo and the risk of ur bombs dying is the core of the gameplay of the rogue u cant take that away if u made the rogue similar to any other dd what will make it special the worth playing if its gonna fall behind another DD either way  

the risk  and the reward of the rogue is pretty awesome having the best dmg output in the game even with it having to build up and having emty turns but hey remmber its not a solo game make use of other character's special abilities a panda a sac movement ... give res to bombs using sadida ... put invunerable on the bomb using another character  ...... theres alooooot of possible combos u can use to bypass the class's weakness but saying that its obviously bad or its not fun is just factualy wrong 


Honestly I understand everything you are saying, but for someone who is NOT a Rogue player, you are just proving my point.

I said the class was playable, said the damage could be amazing and the changes I suggested would not completely change Rogue's current form of play, the idea is to improve.
In a fight that ends in 4 or 5 turns at max, you generate the bombs on the 1st round, put a few more and overkill on the 2nd (damage drops too much with -1 bomb so the only option is to overkill).

What do u do next?

Your bombot is on cd until turn 5, Rogue's utility is null and as dd your damage will take even longer to be built.

The answer is you don't do enough.

Also, since you saw many ppl playing Rogue, did you saw another build besides this one? My ideas are to make the class as good as others in the sense that there are possibilities in builds and better damage control through turns.
It's easy to say that others are fine when it's not you spending the turn without helping the pt at all.

Like i said, u r just proving my point...
9 -1
Reply
Score : 3912

I mean burst damage is kind of the point of rogue, if it had consistent damage, you might as well play cra or fogger.
Also rogue isn't supposed to have utility, this is his weakness and that's why he shines best on a team with a good positioner.
Also you can hit enemies and bombs at the same time with blam, since it's AoE.

Honestly my real gripe with the class is that it's really annoying to play against bosses since their stasis suffix destroys all summons near them and it really sucks to loose all your bombs just cause the boss moved near them on the wrong turn.

6 0
Score : -557

hi entropi, itz me ,mario.
you can place 3 bombs in round 2 if you are against low level mobs but you cant place 3 fire bombs against high level "after 155 mobs" or bosses with(out) passives and rogue passives are  worst like its spell deck if you match to other classes about flexibility and repositioning and ap cost. After revamp ,i only see that rogue is a limited "power skilled side character" for Ankama. clearly class with one chance for a headshot,nothing more.. big bang is a lie nowadays..

 

Datsuki|2019-09-12 00:28:45
Well, you did absolutely no constructive comment about the suggestion '-'

because Ankama devs never listened their players and Ankama prefers limits for some classes. at some points, they re right to do for group pve but single hero system they re not right.

here yopu can check this https://www.wakfu.com/en/forum/97-rogue/237099-rogue-changes?page=1#entry1073493

Ankama should decide something about rogue,
They must give a flexibility about bomb repositioning or costs of spells or an invulable states on bombs. Ankama sees "these sbove points"  as a runaway from bombs for opponents but they forget these are 2 problems and a big cost ap spending for "bomb gameplay rogue" for next rounds without attacking or a big problem about wasted ap costs if bombs are destroyed next rounds. 

and rogue hp steal is worst and armor stealing is aa joke next rounds
1 -6
Reply
Score : 1087

Well, you did absolutely no constructive comment about the suggestion '-'

7 -2
Score : 3912

 

Datsuki|2019-09-12 00:06:45
 
cody5|2019-09-11 21:47:09
I mean burst damage is kind of the point of rogue, if it had consistent damage, you might as well play cra or fogger.
Also rogue isn't supposed to have utility, this is his weakness and that's why he shines best on a team with a good positioner.
Also you can hit enemies and bombs at the same time with blam, since it's AoE.

Honestly my real gripe with the class is that it's really annoying to play against bosses since their stasis suffix destroys all summons near them and it really sucks to loose all your bombs just cause the boss moved near them on the wrong turn.



Well I kinda agree with you, Code, about the mobility. But the burst damage... I'm not sure that's the best way to play in Wakfu, since we still end normal fights in 3~4 turns and the explosion is almost 90% of the time an overkill...

And yeah! I totally agree about the stasis bonuses destroying bombs. It's really annoying (avoidable, but still annoying)

Well it's not "the best way to play wakfu", but it is better then consistent damage in SOME dungeons, especially against bosses that heal themselves or enemies that buff each other when they die, and that's probably healthy for class diversity.
5 -1
Reply
Score : 1087

Oh yep, sure! I agree with that part, mainly with the burst damage in some dungeons

But still I think there could be an improvement in Rogue, not specifically changing his burst damage. Maybe allowing him to have a choice about consistent and burst damage while using bombs (and by have a choice I mean not 1000 or 10.000 like it is right now)

Obviously those numbers are just representatives, examples, but I think you got the point... It's either low~midlow damage or an overkill.

I just wish they could be more effective in the whole game (of course there will be always some dungeons and mobs that are totally against the class, like moon for melees), not just in specific dungeons... I don't think it's enough motivation to build one just to farm SOME specific dungeons, while not being that much helpful in normal fights...

So, again, I don't want to change it to the point that he loses his identity, just wish some improvements to make it more effective in the game.


Thanks for your answer Code :giblove:

Hugs, Fuku.

9 -2
Score : 318

 

Datsuki|2019-09-12 18:21:21

I just wish they could be more effective in the whole game (of course there will be always some dungeons and mobs that are totally against the class, like moon for melees), not just in specific dungeons... I don't think it's enough motivation to build one just to farm SOME specific dungeons, while not being that much helpful in normal fights...
 

That's exactly my point with the suggestions i made. I really like the idea, the unique way of playing that Rogue has, but i also think it should be more effective in other ways besides the burst.
8 -2
Reply
Score : 1307

I have a lot of feelings about Rogue. I don't expect any changes to Rogue in the short term, but there are a few things I'd like to see happen eventually.

Firstly, remove the Wakfu Points for Extra Damage mechanic from Piercing shot (so that it does not consume all your WP) and it actually becomes a decent spell. There are certainly situations where removing a huge amount of armor is very useful in PvE and PvP, so I'd like to see that happen.

Secondly... Give us more spell interactions with Bombs. Maybe have a spell make a bomb block LoS for one turn,  or have the ability to stabilize a Bomb or make it immune for a turn, or something similar. I also think that Smoke Bombs should be able to extend these effects so that, if done properly, you can buff 3 bombs with one spell at the cost of at least 1 WP plus the cost of the spell. Bombs have more uses than just damage: place them right, and bombs can tank the first Kannibal boss because mobs love AoEs. So giving us more ways to use bombs other than for building burst damage would be fun. 

Thirdly, Change Scope. Add a second Detonation/Badabang Spell that allows Rogues to choose whether to do Melee or Distance Damage. Rogues are already so passive intensive, and having to have a passive to do Distance Damage at all makes Distance Rogue basically unplayable, along with the unfortunate idea of having bombs be made range modifiable, and reducing their flat range to 3. Scope only gives a buff of 1 Range, so it actually makes Bombs worse when Scope becomes Rank 2. Scope should provide at least 3 Range to even out the decrease in Bomb range, if not 4 Range to accomodate for the fact that bombs are now Range Modifiable (This will also turn all the earth spells into options for distance damage). I also think that maybe it could have a similar effect to old Runaway with built up Distance Damage and Dodge. I think Cras might have a similar ability, but I'm not sure.

It'd also be nice for Bombs to be tankier. I wouldn't go as far as to ask for Bomb resistance to be the same as the Rogue's resistance, because that wouldn't be right, but maybe have more than one resistance buff for bombs, or maybe buff Barbed Fire? Or Bombs could get a higher % of the Rogue's HP. The tradeoff for higher Bomb Resistance, however, would be that it makes it harder to heal off of bombs using the BBQ + Slap Shot combo, so maybe it'd be fair to raise the resistance one way or another?

I also love Rogue's capability as Support, despite how limited it is. I think it'd be great for Rogues to have access to more support options at the cost of doing less damage if these support options are taken. Kaboom is a great passive and i love it ok give me more ways to buff people. It's fun! No one expects Buffing/Sabotage from rogue, but it's very fun to have those options available if a Rogue wants to have them.

Powder Wall is an interesting subject because it's impractical. It does good damage, but only when something starts its turn on it. Rogues have very little ability to actually move enemies, so after the first turn it's there, Powder Wall becomes useless as most things won't choose to start their turn on it. I would love for firewall to return, especially if its similar to Dofus 2 Rogue's firewall, but I know that that would require a lot more positioning utility that Rogue just doesn't have. Having a broader, 3 tile wide firewall like Rogue used to have would be easier to have with Rogue's limited positioning capability, maybe.

I also just love a class that can accidentally kill you/your teammates and firewall used to be (and is in Dofus 2) really good at that. Zoning is a great support tool I'd love Rogue to have again, and it would also discourage enemies from attacking Bombs, in theory. 

EDIT: Maybe make Bomb Spells act like Sram's Trap Spells? As in, they get to be spells on the third bar that you automatically have? Bombs kill my deck space, and it sucks because I need all my active spells plus Mass Charm, which is like... 6 spells already. Not a lot of space to work with, so making Bombs spells you just, have, as a Rogue, like detonate, would give Rogues a lot more options for spells to put on their deck. Having Bombs take up deck space also implies that bombs are optional, when, seeing the rest of Rogues' kit, points to the contrary: Bombs are not optional. So having Bomb spells on the third bar automatically would be a great quality of life improvement. 

For now, I'll end my ideas with Boombot. Please. Ankama. Wakfu Team. Siu. Make Boombot immune to all damage on the one turn he's alive. I'm begging you. I hate sinistros and feca glyphs for this one reason. If Boombot is going to only be alive for 1 turn anyways, he shouldn't be able to be instantly killed by a feca glyph (allied or not) or a enemy Xelor's 8 sinistros that are covering the tiny map I got in PvP (Can you tell this is a real story? because it is.) 

The problem with Rogue is not that it "can't do damage fast enough". It's more that the game promotes a single playstyle: kill things as fast as possible. The basic concept of what the Rogue Class is supposed to be is the exact opposite of a class that just hits stuff fast and hard like what Iop is supposed to be. Rogues are supposed to be strategic, and strategy takes time (As in, more than two turns, usually, which is how long most PvE fights take outside of bosses right now, and why Rogue 'is bad at PvE').

I think that Wakfu overall should have some changes to promote more diverse playstyles, like changing how Dungeon runs are Ranked from # of Turns it took to other statistics like Damage, or Heals. How Ogrest is ranked is a good starting point on this idea.

If how good someone is at the game is based on how quickly they can kill something, the only answer to "fix" Rogue is to remove Rogue from the game. It's the class's basic concept that goes against how the game defines a 'good' player, and that's the problem. We can't change the basic concept of Rogue without changing literally everything about Rogue in mechanics and lore in both Wakfu and Dofus, and overall, I think changing how player groups are rated in competitive dungeon runs will benefit everyone, because it will encourage players of all classes to go outside the 'kill stuff hard and fast' box we're stuck in. 

Those are my thoughts. If I have any more of them, I'll add them if I remember. Key quote on that last paragraph if anyone gets the wrong impression (aka: in case someone thinks I'm saying change the entire game to accommodate Rogue).

"I think changing how player groups are rated in competitive dungeon runs will benefit everyone, because it will encourage players of all classes to go outside the 'kill stuff hard and fast' box we're stuck in."

Just going to reiterate that, because that point is also really important to me and has been ever since the dungeon ranking system was first implemented. As someone who is really bad at playing fast and doesn't always have enough time in a turn to do everything I want, being fast shouldn't be the only thing that makes a player 'good' in the games' metaphorical eyes. And I think that applies to every class in the game in one way or another.
 

 

Datsuki|2019-09-13 07:23:52
  • "Scope only gives a buff of 1 Range, so it actually makes Bombs worse when Scope becomes Rank 2. Scope should provide at least 3 Range to even out the decrease in Bomb range, if not 4 Range to accomodate for the fact that bombs are now Range Modifiable (This will also turn all the earth spells into options for distance damage)."

Scope is really a bad bad passive, but giving 3 range is not a good idea. Maybe it would be better if it just don't set the base range for the bomb spells at 3. So giving 1 range and making it modifiable with the same 6 base range would be ok already (not good, just ok).

.
  • "EDIT: Maybe make Bomb Spells act like Sram's Trap Spells? As in, they get to be spells on the third bar that you automatically have? Bombs kill my deck space, and it sucks because I need all my active spells plus Mass Charm, which is like... 6 spells already. Not a lot of space to work with, so making Bombs spells you just, have, as a Rogue, like detonate, would give Rogues a lot more options for spells to put on their deck. Having Bombs take up deck space also implies that bombs are optional, when, seeing the rest of Rogues' kit, points to the contrary: Bombs are not optional. So having Bomb spells on the third bar automatically would be a great quality of life improvement. "

About that, and looking to the suggestion that Cantarzo made, maybe both can be implemented. Like, if you have the Active spell that puts a bomb in the field in your deck, you automatically receive the third bar spells (air earth and fire) that detonates the bombs and defines the bomb elemental dmg + debuffs (range, mp, wp  , as it is now).

.
  • "If how good someone is at the game is based on how quickly they can kill something, the only answer to "fix" Rogue is to remove Rogue from the game. It's the class's basic concept that goes against how the game defines a 'good' player, and that's the problem."

About this... I don't think it should be removed (but I really agree that the game should promote other playstyles) But maybe rogue could have more than 1 playstyle, like Cantarzo is suggesting. Rogue wouldn't lose his strategic concept, but would be possible to play it in more than one style (just like Eca, for example. You can play it support, dd melee, etc, but the basic concept is always the same.. "Luck")

About everything else you said, I just agree so there is no point in talking all of it over again, since it's a 100% agreement smile including about how the game should be changed, but I think it's another topic (even if directly linked to rogue and all other classes) so I'll not extend it too.

 


Hey! That idea for scope is also pretty good. Honestly, I'd just like for it to be buffed or changed along with adding a second detonate to make bombs do distance damage, because if a second detonate spell is added for distance, Scope loses the "makes bombs do distance damage" part. Thinking about it, your idea is probably better than mine haha.

As long as they do something with bombs that free up my deck space, I'm happy, cuz then I can bring smoke bombs and more fire spells bwahahahahaha

Me saying that "the only answer to "fix" Rogue is to remove Rogue from the game" was intended as hyperbole/overexaggeration. I don't think they should do that, either! The point with Rogue that I was trying to make is that Bombs are its main mechanic, and it's a class that is intended to take time to play. What people seem to want to do with Rogue is not use bombs and do damage immediately, which is not what the class is intended to be at all. I'm totally in favor of more playstyles (especially support), but I think these options have to use bombs in one way or the other because that's what Rogue's thing is. It's like how you can use Portals with Elio for helping everyone move around, but also have your attacks hit further. I just don't think Rogue should necessarily have access to all of the damage it does while also being able to provide huge levels of support through buffs/debuffs. Rogue already has some pretty impressive support capabilities that people don't seem to notice, but I'd love for them to have the option to have more. Bombs should sabotage, right?

Hmmm... that gives me an idea, actually. What if Rogue's Fugitive passive was changed into a sabotage passive at the cost of Damage? As in... maybe instead of Powder Wall glyphs causing damage at the start of a turn, with this passive, they act kind of like mud tiles. Every time you step in the wall, you get a chance for a debuff? Or maybe it just buffs Bombs' debuffs while sacrificing damage?

Talking about this makes me want to write a Support Rogue guide because it's actually a viable playstyle for Rogue that no one seems to realize is there... lol.

  just realized it just added to my post here... lol
9 -1
Reply
Score : 1087
  • "Scope only gives a buff of 1 Range, so it actually makes Bombs worse when Scope becomes Rank 2. Scope should provide at least 3 Range to even out the decrease in Bomb range, if not 4 Range to accomodate for the fact that bombs are now Range Modifiable (This will also turn all the earth spells into options for distance damage)."

Scope is really a bad bad passive, but giving 3 range is not a good idea. Maybe it would be better if it just don't set the base range for the bomb spells at 3. So giving 1 range and making it modifiable with the same 6 base range would be ok already (not good, just ok).

.
  • "EDIT: Maybe make Bomb Spells act like Sram's Trap Spells? As in, they get to be spells on the third bar that you automatically have? Bombs kill my deck space, and it sucks because I need all my active spells plus Mass Charm, which is like... 6 spells already. Not a lot of space to work with, so making Bombs spells you just, have, as a Rogue, like detonate, would give Rogues a lot more options for spells to put on their deck. Having Bombs take up deck space also implies that bombs are optional, when, seeing the rest of Rogues' kit, points to the contrary: Bombs are not optional. So having Bomb spells on the third bar automatically would be a great quality of life improvement. "

About that, and looking to the suggestion that Cantarzo made, maybe both can be implemented. Like, if you have the Active spell that puts a bomb in the field in your deck, you automatically receive the third bar spells (air earth and fire) that detonates the bombs and defines the bomb elemental dmg + debuffs (range, mp, wp  , as it is now).

.
  • "If how good someone is at the game is based on how quickly they can kill something, the only answer to "fix" Rogue is to remove Rogue from the game. It's the class's basic concept that goes against how the game defines a 'good' player, and that's the problem."

About this... I don't think it should be removed (but I really agree that the game should promote other playstyles) But maybe rogue could have more than 1 playstyle, like Cantarzo is suggesting. Rogue wouldn't lose his strategic concept, but would be possible to play it in more than one style (just like Eca, for example. You can play it support, dd melee, etc, but the basic concept is always the same.. "Luck")

About everything else you said, I just agree so there is no point in talking all of it over again, since it's a 100% agreement smile including about how the game should be changed, but I think it's another topic (even if directly linked to rogue and all other classes) so I'll not extend it too.

 
9 0
Score : -557

@Natscha is that all long suggestions and purposes your idea?
if it is, you have effort it for nothing. your ideas only make rogue OP and precious class which Ankama doesnot want..

4k armor +124hp +(93hp*5 wp) <-this damage value is OP for gameplay and what if player has got "+10  wp"? -"you dont need bomb gameplay if your suggestion is real",you can remove any opponents in 4th round. Ankama  point is easy p.shot  usage blocking by wp control otherwise you will use powder wall ,ruse,bomboot easily.This is OP gameplay. Solution is debuff mobs and all easy gameplay classes into a basic gameplay. whats basic gameplay, it is less range ,less mp move, less passives,less steal abilities for more unique classes and mobs. it is meaningless if a mob steals my 5 range at once each turn if my specialities are worthless each round.

0 -3
Reply
Score : 1307

I'm open to an actual discussion if you wanna talk about why my suggestions would make Rogue an 'OP and precious class', though I'm not exactly sure where you're getting that from other than my love for the class. I want Rogue to have a distance option, and to have more buff/debuff options at the cost of damage. I don't think that'd make Rogue OP, but I'd love to hear why you think it would, if you don't mind explaining.

I can admit this to you: I'm not a game developer. My suggestions aren't perfect, but they don't have to be. They're suggestions. A game developer can take those and actually make them good and reasonable. That's the point of this. 

 

4 0
Respond to this thread