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Loka's General Rogue Guide

By Loka- - MEMBER - August 02, 2019, 03:15:35
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Score : 95

 

Are Bombs/Powder Wall direct damage or indirect damage? 

Bombs are direct damage as of 1.62+. Powder wall is indirect damage. 

Just a small thing to note, "indirect damage" does not necessarily link to the ability to bypass armor points. 

If you detonate the bomb outside of your turn, using the Boombot's own detonation skill or making an ally destroy a bomb under Dynamite, Bomb damage does count as indirect damage (it does not ignore armor points though) and so it can be affected by Ruin subimations on the rogue or Determination sublimations on the target, just to give an example.

Hope you can check this, it's just an assumption i did while reading about sublimation effects ^^
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Score : 1910

I've yet to have the opportunity to test this but it's been something that I've been asked about before. My assumption is that Ruin doesn't affect bomb damage if the bombs are blown up by boombot or by dynamite's effect, because it's, I think, defined as indirect damage done outside of your turn. Unfortunately as you noted, indirect damage doesn't really have a strict definition, so it's something I'd have to test.

Unfortunately, getting my hands on two identical items and slapping a ruin sublim on one of them isn't the easiest thing for me to do but I'll definitely add this information whenever I finally get it.

EDIT: Hey so, I talked to a friend of mine about this because I have an awful memory, and they remembered more than I did lol. Ruin was one of the first things I tested when the enchantment update came out on beta. Ruin does NOT affect bombs, even when they are detonated by boombot or dynamite. It does affect powder wall, though.

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I have a doubt about build, you say to put "Strength tree" 20 Melee Mastery, even if you detonate the bombs from far away, the melee mastery work ?

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Yes. Unless you have the Scope passive on, Bombs and Powder Wall always use Melee Mastery regardless of where the Rogue is. You can find this answer under the FAQ section.

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Does Excess rune really work on Detonation/Badabang? I had a fear it would just not work since Detonation/Badabang is not a spell with a damage formula...

 

Loka-|2020-02-20 03:25:16
it does actually work! Detonation/Badabang counts as a spell and will consume excess. All damage caused by bombs is seen as caused by the detonation spell, so the excess bonus will affect all of the damage from detonation.

I hope that answers your question.

That sounds insanely powerful fear
Thanks for the answer!
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Score : 1910

it does actually work! Detonation/Badabang counts as a spell and will consume excess. All damage caused by bombs is seen as caused by the detonation spell, so the excess bonus will affect all of the damage from detonation.

I hope that answers your question.

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I was checking out the different classes and thought Pulsar and Piercing shot looked cool because they used your remaining points. But NOPE! 
Thanks for this guide, and the heads-up about those two spells.

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Score : 1910

They're cool in theory but then you have to deal with the consequences of losing all of those points... lmao. Piercing shot is honestly a little more viable than Pulsar is at the moment, though both of them are bad. I'm just hoping they change rogue's spells overall to better suit their bomb focus, even if that's controversial. 

EDIT: I will say that piercing shot is particularly useful against the boss of Bonta's Treechnid dungeon. I'll give it that.

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Score : 4148

 

Loka-|2019-11-20 01:22:10
I've yet to have the opportunity to test this but it's been something that I've been asked about before. My assumption is that Ruin doesn't affect bomb damage if the bombs are blown up by boombot or by dynamite's effect, because it's, I think, defined as indirect damage done outside of your turn. Unfortunately as you noted, indirect damage doesn't really have a strict definition, so it's something I'd have to test.

Unfortunately, getting my hands on two identical items and slapping a ruin sublim on one of them isn't the easiest thing for me to do but I'll definitely add this information whenever I finally get it.

EDIT: Hey so, I talked to a friend of mine about this because I have an awful memory, and they remembered more than I did lol. Ruin was one of the first things I tested when the enchantment update came out on beta. Ruin does NOT affect bombs, even when they are detonated by boombot or dynamite. It does affect powder wall, though.
 

This isn't true actually, ruin does affect bombs.

So does Scalded and all those other indirect damage boosters.
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Score : 4939

Can confirm with Hearttyace, I have 3 ruins and 1 ruin II
all of which increase bomb damage when triggered off of rogues turn.

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Hi Loka! I was checking your guide and wondered, does your bomb dmg calculation always gets the exact dmg the bomb does?
I was trying to set a excel page to make it easier to predict plays but the result is always a bit off :\

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I usually assume my calculation is *roughly* correct because I won't know which bombs get blocked until they go off. Block is really the thing that makes it difficult to calculate, but yeah it's usually roughly correct, if not a bit under because I forget certain modifiers like minesweeper sometimes.

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Just a few things I'd like to add.

Powderwall seems kind of necessary. It's very powerful for what it is. Every combo increases it 1-14 base damage dependent on level. So even at 10 combo, You're dealing 210 at level 200 damage  from  arguably 2 ap since bombs deal their own damage. This is very possible for turn 2 burst and AoE burst at that. Now to add to this. Pyrotechist isn't damage dealt. It's multiplicative to it. It's  25% extra damage akin to combos increase to the damage Powderwall deals then it calculates damage dealt after that... It's powerful.

I think I might make a Rogue guide myself just to deep dive this a bit more. But after looking and testing Rogue more, It's much more profitable to play around indirect damage. Meaning no more exploding bombs yourself, and doing it through boombot. Scalded targets take more damage than badabang and Ruin subs are for more consistent and powerful than ambush anyways.

More Rogues need to get it out of  their head to hold Powderwall and bombs till 20 combo since its reduces rogues efficiency more than it increases it not only that, We need to start getting into the habit of always looking to use Powderwall regardless and generally aoeing as many as possible.

Which also leads me to the next topic I wanted to discuss. Gear. I've come to the conclusion that, Rogue was never designed to be  with anything but elemental damage and Melee or Distance. Will this reduce potential mastery? Yes, without a doubt .But its an overall damage boost vs any other build that Rogue can use that includes Single Target or AoE(This isn't from me either, looking into Rogues more I found that Dy7 literally said this ). But it does make me wonder, what exactly will we do with our strength branch? Berserk? That's inefficient as it gets.

----
That aside, I disagree with 7 control being anything close to necessary. I believe taking anything more than the control you get from Boomarogue is starting to be too much as it may start to hamper your stats. Straight up placing 1 bomb every turn and dealing damage is very much enough, especially if you intend to use powderwall(which you should).  It's also the other part, where dealing too much damage is ignored by invulnerability by phase bosses.

Phew that's all. I previously had the opinion that powderwall wasn't profitable myself, so after doing so much research and recently finding out bombs are indeed potentially indirect changes everything. I really really wish this was more publicized by Ankama.

I'll eventually start testing it myself, I think dual element rogue with one spec can be competitive with other classes. Ill check it myself. Because as it stand, there isn't a single type of rogue that is competitive except in Blightogre.

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Score : 580

In regards to having your boombot handle detonations, I'm not sure I can agree with you. For one that would mean not using reconversion which basically saves you a whole turn of build up. You also would not be able to utilize excess which is pretty popular for rogues for good reason.

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I'm seriously seem way more rogues in the 1~100 lvl range than before and I blame Loka for that.


Plus: No other class raises such debate with so many descriptions of tests. That for me is attesting they did a successful rework.

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Hearttyace|2020-07-18 02:18:21
Of course, dynamite would be 100% the most optimal way to go about it. But dynamite is not very reliable.  Activating with boombot allows me to do two things. 1. reliably set up mobs to proc with their conditionals(For example, Dor'mor to turning mobs away from me and putting dogs solo). 2. Allows me to put two mobs on powderwall immediately after setting it up and explode bombs on both turn 2.

It's not really reliable to go for that extreme amount of optimization, you're already dealing more than most damage dealers without it. Reliability does matter in these situations, bombs having less than 70% resist means they're extremely liable to be removed easily by a loose AoE. 2 bombs means two spots taken up, it's more likely for a mob to hit one, and if it does. It's getting destroyed. 

I personally think Rogue is feels weak right now because it's not reliable. It's gameplay is very volatile due to bombs dying on a dime resulting in all your damage being significantly lowered.  Then there's the excess build that makes it an unreliable teammate due to the rogue doing nothing till max bomb output.

The big issue with rogue is not having really any good options to protect bombs on your own--- they don't have the utility to back up their damage, and changing a lot of their filler spells unrelated to bombs to somehow affect bombs, whether that's a resistance buff, heal, bomb specific peace armor, idk. We definitely need more ways to protect bombs on our own.

I agree 100% that powder wall is a very powerful tool that goes under-utilitzed, and there are definitely reasons to go for a ruin build if you can consistently get mobs on powder walls-- or, just kill mobs with powder wall itself given how powerful it can get. Even so, some monsters do things like teleport away before powder wall triggers (moon kokos (which are just... who knows what's happening here), wolfix in tundra area of osamosa, to name a few). I think that powder wall needs to trigger before these teleports and by all means it should, but that's just how the code works I guess. 

With detonating with boombot, there's a lot of things to take into consideration. I know that boombot's turn was modified at some point so that you can also buff yourself using kaboom through boombot and have that final damage on your next turn, so you can do things like... surround yourself with air/earth bombs and dynamite yourself, then summon boombot, have boombot detonate the bombs around you and then reconversion into one of your blinding bombs, and you'll have a stupid amount of final damage for your detonation next turn.

This, imo, is far more valuable than the ruin damage bonus from detonating using boombot, given you can get roughly 60-75% damage buff in addition to the 1.25 multiplier Badabang provides, compared to the flat 30% ruin would provide. Additionally: if your Rogue has at least 121% damage inflicted, Badabang will do more damage than Boombot's detonation with Ruin. 

came back to 7 replies glad it's you guys discussing. Anyways there's my 2 cents.
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