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Theorycrafting: Ellie's deluxe mental amulet vs Coat of sorceror king

By RaderElcaroman - MEMBER - July 23, 2017, 10:32:26

This thread is a continuation to the thread regarding the comparison of these two relics build around on xelor,i decided to make a new thread as the discussion on the mentioned thread started concerning the comparison between the two relics on osamodas,foggernaut and eliotropes.if you feel a bit lost i invite you to check that thread

for the osamodas,boowolf fang on dragon form's way worthyer than whimp+scarcely wing,because not only its a potential aoe attack,but it also increase the summon's damage against the target by 20%,which make ellie a worthyer pick overall

on a no-los combo,foggernaut can only spend 12ap on his combo,and for a straight-line reliant class,this situation happen way more than you think,leaving 1ap left,i guess they can spend it to put up a rail,but the damage dealt there will definitely go in ellie's favor

for eliotropes,on 12ap combo they don't wake x3 without the pulsation buff and a couple of portals (exept against dreggons as they take increased indrect damages),they go for portal+ flood x3 (+50% damage dealt) + incandescence when it's off-cooldown
and the second turn second portal,self pulsation and wake x2
on a 13ap basis,as ethereal burst deals less than a 1portal incandescence,you'll have a damage decrease on the 13ap comboyou mentioned
in the other hand,hiding is a really weak spell,compared to flood that have the bonus 50% damage dealt throught a portal,people only use it as an emergency lifesteal when they're really low hp,otherise they pull up a better combo without it

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The whole point of that post is that you can't make full decisions based on simple things.

For example, the point regarding Osamodas and how Boowolf Rage buffs the damage of a summon by 20%. Just because you've got 14 AP instead of 13 AP doesn't mean that you can't incorporate it into your spells.
Bwork Sneakiness + Boowolf Rage + Whip + Kwak's Cry *2 = 334 base damage (also wanna correct that Bwork Sneakiness + Whip *2 + Boowolf Rage has a total base damage of 321 instead of 297).

Additionally, there will be a difference in other actions as well e.g. summoning where with a 12 AP build it would be:
Gobup + Croak + Boowolf Rage or Gobup + Boowolf Rage + Whip + Scaraleaf Wing.
While a 13 AP build rotation would look like:
Gobup + Croak + Whip + Scaraleaf Wing or Gobup + Boowolf Rage + Whip + Bwork Sneakiness.

And these are just 2 of the things that could be done in a fight. It's not a be all and end all of what would decide what relic is better suited.

A 13 AP build for a Fogger also doesn't mean just a stronger spell rotation. It also means that you can go into Motherfogger mode while still keeping 12 AP.
It means that you can use a Stasis Shot instead of a Ray of Stasis after fully buffing Blockade. It means that depending on this "frequent lack of line of sight" situation, you could use Steampalm *2 + Stasis Shot.

Lastly for Eliotrope. It got the most complex spell rotations out of these 3 classes and even more actions it can perform outside of these combos.
And even if you took a look at your suggested spell rotation then we would find:
Portal + Incandenscence + Flood *3 = 412.5 base damage
Portals *2 + Incandenscence + Flood *2 + Ethereal Burst = 437 base damage
And the second rotation sets you up better for the next turns since you'll already have 2 portals in place.

Hiding is also by no means a "really weak spell" because it got the same AP/damage ratio as Pulsation while also providing you with heals if you use it while Exalted. It also really smoothens out weird combo rotation since it's the only 3 AP spell that can be cast through a portal and would come really in handy in different occasions e.g. if you had to cast Incandescence from range.

Comparing it with Flood isn't "fair" because Flood requires a portal between you and your target and it doesn't work through portals so it's a lot more restricted than any of your other spells.

Admitedly, all these numbers here are just the base damage on the spell rotations and you could potentially find out that despite the higher base damage, some builds would still result in lower damage overall.
But to put it shortly: Don't try oversimplify things and try to look at the bigger picture. There's a lot of math involved in all of this that makes it incredibly complex.

Otherwise, what really stops you and the majority of players from playing with an 11 AP build with the Deluxe Amulet if it was all just about the mastery?

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Kruzy99|2017-07-23 09:50:42

Otherwise, what really stops you and the majority of players from playing with an 11 AP build with the Deluxe Amulet if it was all just about the mastery?

because the mentioned classes have no usage for a 6th mp(well,elio too,but they can get a free mp from the passive,so why not),they can with most ease go 12/5 without any masteries loss,in the other hand,the majority of the mentioned classes DOES go 12/5 on ellies,but what stopes you to rune an ap and go 14/5 on your xel if it was all about sacrifying stats for ap?

as for the whole picture,i do look at it,i do ttake in considerationthe masteries and the resists you're gaining from building that way,while you literally just considerate the base damage of every spell combo

but i do agree that trying to individually calculate the damage you would deal with every ability accounting masteries,crits and damage dealt,it would take  a lot of time to make precise comparison and it is likely neither you or i would like to do that job.
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You didn't answer to the question you quoted and that's neither what the whole argument is about. They can sacrifice their 6th MP but does it mean that they should sacrifice the 13th AP they could get instead?
And if you're fine with sacrificing that then what's your argument to not similarly sacrifice the 12th AP on other classes such as Cra/Rogue/Sram/Iop/Huppermage/Ecaflip/... that do need their 6th MP and could instead play a 11/6 build with more masteries?

And you aren't looking at the whole picture or otherwise I wouldn't have been able to rebute every single argument you've been trying to make and I've given several benefits to these 13 AP builds that you're trying to counter with resist and more masteries when the resists on the Deluxe Amulet aren't necessarily always better and the extra mastery can be refuted with spell rotations that actually would do more damage.

But hey, let's do some math because I'm actually willing to do so:
Let's say that a full distance Eliotrope build with the Deluxe Amulet would have 3020 mastery.
So a Sorceror Coat build would have 2875 mastery.

If we take the first turn spell rotations that I mentioned above then the results would be:

On 4 consecutive critical hits:
Deluxe: Portal (0) > Incandescence (5060) > Flood (11582) > Flood (18104) > Flood (24626)
Sorceror: Portal *2 (0) > Incandescence (9650) > Ethereal Burst (13638) > Flood (19857) > Flood (26076)

On 4 consecutive non-critical hits:
Deluxe: Portal (0) > Incandescence (3821) > Flood (8746) > Flood (13671) > Flood (18596)
Sorceror: Portal *2 (0) > Incandescence (7096) > Ethereal Burst (10029) > Flood (14603) > Flood (19177)

This difference of course grows smaller as you try it on proper resists and in that case what you're actually left with are the advantages of having a single AP more.

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My main point is that if you multiply total AP by total mastery you'll get something that acts as an index of damage output. Things like crit chance and target res don't matter here because with the equips that we're changing we can say they'll be the same in both cases (though technically crit chance should be factored in when converting crit mastery). So really the only assumptions I'm making is that both bulds will spend all their AP and that their 12 AP combos & 13 AP combos have similar efficiency (but Kruzy is currently arguing this point so I don't find it necessary to debate that much myself).

So let's run those numbers for a max geared range DD, going 12/5 with ellie amulet and going 13/5 with coat of the sorceror king.

amulet relic = 3100 mastery x 12 AP = 37,200
coat relic = 2930 mastery x 13 AP = 38,090

Even if we run that comparison with both builds having full tonic glyphs
amulet relic = 3100 mastery x 16 AP =49,600
coat relic = 2930 mastery x 17 AP = 49,810

More AP and more AP generation will improve the index of the amulet relative to the coat.
More mastery and crit chance will improve the index of the coat relative to the amulet.

And this is with both builds going for very high range, if they dropped some range then the comparison would be further skewed in favour of the coat of the sorceror king because they'd be able to get more mastery.

(and I do think the numbers I used there are pretty reasonable.
Spell deck part wasn't working for me though, so all the passive slots are empty)

And for fogger with LOS their 13 AP combo is more efficient than their 12 AP combo.
Heart of steam x2 + ray of stasis = 140+140+58 = 338 (= 28.167 base damage per AP)
Heart of steam + ray of stasis x4 = 140+(58*4) = 372 (= 28.615 base damage per AP)

So yes some classes can definitely afford to sacrifice an AP, but if the outcome results in less damage overall then it's not a worthwhile sacrifice. And it just seems silly to me that the specialized high mastery build will probably have a lower damage output than the more generalized high AP build (because the high AP build will peform better at any kind of utility functions and also has more build flexibility).

Osa is an exception yes, and both relics seem viable for Xel too (amulet build probably has slightly less damage overall but has slightly better defence) but for most other classes I think the amulet is an automatic wrong choice.

Deluxe Amulet + White Quilt will give you +11.25 avg elemental res and +172 HP compared to Coat of the Sorceror King + Eye of Sor'hon. But the rebalanced Croum pet will be 20 res and the coat build could use Dragon Amulet (which is looking more realistically attainable these days) instead for +15 mastery and +5 avg elemental res, so +11 res doesn't look very significant (also the amulets +70 res for 1 element is pretty awkward unless you had severely unbalanced res beforehand). Deluxe Amulet will perform better on partially complete builds I suppose, because when you aren't full legendary + runed + meta'ed you'll still probably have all your AP just you're missing mastery, but using something as a placeholder relic seems kinda silly considering their high cost (and considering how viable low stasis runs are when your build is incomplete). This comparison also wasn't really accounting for White Quilt losing 100 mastery in their third element, but a lot of the classes that can afford to drop an AP also have an elemental branch they can afford to drop or weaken so I don't think that's too important (but without White Quilt's high mastery for 2 elements then Deluxe Amulet would compare worse).

"because the mentioned classes have no usage for a 6th mp(well,elio too,but they can get a free mp from the passive,so why not)"

Deluxe Amulet vs Sorceror King isn't a loss of MP though, it's a loss of AP. And damage output will be a function of total AP x total mastery (x spell rotation efficiency). Which for maxed builds is probably going to come out ahead for the 13 AP builds.

At moon runeing an AP probably wasn't worth it because you sacrificed too much in the process. At zinit it might be worth it, if your support slots are of negligible value.

You need 14 rune slots for an AP.

5 support slots
9 dmg slots
(imo sacrificing defense rune slots is not viable at zinit)

= loss of 180 damage compared to having meta secondary damage runes instead.

amulet relic = 3100 mastery x 12 AP = 37,200
coat relic = 2930 mastery x 13 AP = 38,090
coat relic + runed AP = 2750 mastery x 14 AP = 38,500

So I think a lot of people discounted AP runes because they weren't worth it at moon. However At zinit where mastery values are a lot higher the value of an AP is a lot higher too, so it's potentially worthwile (on classes with big mastery passives and little use for support slots it's worth considering. Not worth it on classes which use tertiary damage meta runes though.)

Going from White Quilt + Deluxe Amulet to Coat of the Sorceror King + Eye of Sor'Hon is sacricifing ~170 mastery (arguably much less if you have very high crit or are tri elemental, maybe as little as 120 mastery) and 11 res for 1 AP.

Going from meta damage runes to meta AP rune is sacrificing 180 mastery (would be 270 damage if they used tertiary damage altruism or rage runes though) and 5 support runes for 1 AP. Which is IMO more costly a sacrifice unless those support slots are near 0 value.

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