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Bonta declares war on Amakna

By Shadrake February 20, 2013, 15:26:45
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Score : 6296
Shaleigh1|2013-02-21 17:34:02
Alliances being bad for your market is complete nonsense. It is time that you wake up, accept that and see how you have been wrong once a stable state has been in place long enough.

Restrictive economies with high import taxes and the like can never have a long term positive effect on the market. The different Wakfu laws are basically nothing else than that.

You have to create traffic to your nation to improve your market. It won't improve just by binding the few active players Amakna has to their own market, not allowing them to go to Bonta. Open borders create traffic which creates the movement of goods.

The current state of the Amaknian market (and Sufokia and Brakmar too) is due to the long periods of war since the game got released, not due to the short periods of peace. At the beginning of the server the Amaknian market looked way better than it does today.

I myself am usually trading around a lot and I always moved between all 4 markets right after release. Your constant war waging did what to my trading habits? That is right, I stay in Bonta so I don't have to deal with those idiotic kids aggro'ing me every five minutes.

P.S.: If you want examples for restrictive economies being bad have a look at thriving economies like North Korea. Or ask yourself why the US and the EU are aiming for a free trade agreement to compete with China's supremacy.
Thank you Shaleigh1, that is what I have been trying to say for a very, very, long time.

+1 to you sir.
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Alliances being bad for your market is complete nonsense. It is time that you wake up, accept that and see how you have been wrong once a stable state has been in place long enough.

It already helped before and it still does. If you think otherwise, that's very interesting to us and I'd like to know what you based that on in order to improve or prevent it.
It won't improve just by binding the few active players Amakna has to their own market, not allowing them to go to Bonta.

We allow them to go there. It's not war, it's neutral. We want to remind them of thinking about their own market first, if they can't find it here, they can always see other markets.

Open borders create traffic which creates the movement of goods.

This has proven the opposite. During the alliances we've tried with Bonta, our markets went downhill rapidly. And went up again during a neutral state.
The current state of the Amaknian market (and Sufokia and Brakmar too) is due to the long periods of war since the game got released, not due to the short periods of peace. At the beginning of the server the Amaknian market looked way better than it does today.

The current state of Amakna is a lot better than before last summer in 2012. In all the mandates we've had, we've tried many things and compared the effects of neutrality, alliance and war to our markets. This has proved most useful.
Your constant war waging did what to my trading habits? That is right, I stay in Bonta so I don't have to deal with those idiotic kids aggro'ing me every five minutes.

It hasn't been war for a long time. Except for yesterday when Bonta declared it themselves.

I've explained all the effects already that I and a lot of other people have witnessed during various states with Bonta. I'm not going to repeat them again, this is just the way it is. Items were about a hundred, now they're 300-400. Allied: 200, Neutral: 350, this pattern repeated itself over and over again. There are actually haven bags and people around and I'm getting a lot of positive feedback about it. It's up to you to believe it or not. I don't think theres much more to say on this.

At any rate, I'm not here to discuss the philosophy behind our ideas. This is what most Amaknians and the current Government wants, just like Bonta wants some things, and all the particular reasons behind all of our desires are a side-track from this current topic, in my opinion. I'm here to negotiate with Misfits, if possible. Otherwise Misfits and I have to continue by PM in-game, but I'm not going to continue on discussing all the subjects around it on this topic.

-Xx Rayne, Governor of Amakna 
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Shaleigh1|2013-02-21 17:34:02
Alliances being bad for your market is complete nonsense. It is time that you wake up, accept that and see how you have been wrong once a stable state has been in place long enough.

[...]

You have to create traffic to your nation to improve your market. It won't improve just by binding the few active players Amakna has to their own market, not allowing them to go to Bonta. Open borders create traffic which creates the movement of goods.

[...]

I myself am usually trading around a lot and I always moved between all 4 markets right after release. Your constant war waging did what to my trading habits? That is right, I stay in Bonta so I don't have to deal with those idiotic kids aggro'ing me every five minutes.
It is great that you have this opinion and that you try to think with us, but over and over again this has been proven untrue. You can read back multiple economy related topics in this section (and the old politics section) which show clear proof of how war & neutral is good for the Amakna market.

There is no traffic to Amakna. Bonta has everything... whenever there is an alliance numbers show that even more Amaknians go to Bonta... "Opening borders" (they are open, there is no war, but as a response to your words and how I think you mean them) decreases the Amakna market. Bersa's last mandate was a proof of that, Rayne allied in November somewhere to test this too, and before Rayne's first mandate the market had only 120 items... What you are suggesting, in saying in the first paragraph I quoted really is untrue. The avid market you describe was only able to exist because 1. there were barely any kamas. Everything cost 1 kamas and if you sold crap you were "rich". 2. Bonta had no monopoly on the best (and only) market yet, so people had a reason to search multiple markets... when the dust of the opening of Wakfu had settled though, Amakna, Brakmar and Sufokia's market were dead... untill Rayne and Fhil became Governors.

I am truly sad that we lost you as a potential costumer, I really am. But the way you claim to have operated is a real exception to what we've witnessed. However, now that Amakna and Bonta have been at peace for over 4,5 month and now that our market is starting to look like something again, you should give us a try (like more Bontarians do lately). It is said that the Amaknian market tends to be a lot cheaper then the Bontarian one. -- We welcome all, and markets have always (even during war) been safe-zones. The "idiotic kids" that tend to agro in our marketplace are bothering Amaknians as well... it has little to do with politics.

Sorry.

-Blantuise
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LadyRinsun|2013-02-21 16:50:49
Dear Misfits, I hope you read this and that you could leave a reply to all of this. Perhaps we can think of a solution to this together so both parties can be happy smile

Any ideas are welcome here if you've got something to share~

Dear Rayne,

It's good to see so many people give their input about this problem and of course Amaknians and Bontarians have different and valid interests. Now I'm not going to argue with you about your goal of improving your markets. But I'd like to take the the following quote of you and start my reasoning there:

[blockquote]Quote (LadyRinsun @ 2013-02-21 16:50:49): What we wanted to achieve was a decent market where you could sell your wares and find many of the things you're looking for, and also very importantly: A cozy place to hang out. People like to chat and socialize on a central point, and the atmosphere in Amakna's trade bridges is really good for that and this all creates bonding in Amakna. We achieved all of these things, and Traff Algar Square's grow(n)(ing) into a great place to socialize and have fun. People are having fun there, and many of us want to protect that. [/blockquote]
I think everyone wants that cozy place to hang out, every member of any nation, and best on all the nation's markets, but the way things are currently set up, the more you get it cozy over there, the more trouble we find in our markets: Just seeing someone with that outlaw marker above his head let's some people grab for their weapons - and it's right, it's what a good citizen should do: protect the nation from outlaws! Sad as it is, it never ends there ... citizen A attacks outlaw B, B is pi**ed and calls for his big brothers for revenge etc .... Now would that happen without the outlaw marker? Yes, but clearly less.

I hear and read a lot "Markets are safe zone" .... it is not really true. The game doesn't enforce it. When I myself was mid level, I was attacked many times on Amaknian markets while trying to shop, and I don't blame them. But why am I an outlaw to Amakna when we're neutral? Because of daily quests that forced me to take a resource in Amakna that is punishable by law. Because I help guildies to achieve their garden gem achievement. Harmless things like that.

And this is where the problem starts: Neutral relations together with eco system protectionism.

We have discussed yesterday back and forth whether if we remove our eco protectionism that would create lesser outlaws towards the Bonta law system and thus not as much trouble on our markets, preventing them from being "cozy". But it is not at all a fair solution while the protectionism in Amakna continues.

Now there has been reasoning going on that it's already difficult to stop fights and follow up riots when Amaknian people use the fields in Emelka, so you prefer protectionism and asking Bontarians to go to Sufokia. From Amaknian's perspective a valid request - and quite similar to the problem we face on our markets.

Taking all these points, here are options:

"Alliance"
For everyone: Pro: use of Draco Express, Outlaws are real outlaws and not victims of circumstances Con: none
For Bonta: Pro: Peace on our markets Con: More work for our ecologist
For Amakna: Pro: Maybe nothing else than the pros listed above for everyone Con: Your markets are underdeveloped, More work for your ecologist

"Neutral with Protectionism"
For everyone: Pro: none Con: People can't use Draco Express. People get outlawed for harmless things
For Bonta: Pro: None Con: Trouble on our markets
For Amakna: Pro: Market development Con: none

"Neutral" without Protectionism
For everyone: Pro: Outlaws are real outlaws and not victims of curcumstances. Con: People can't use Draco Express
For Bonta: Pro: Maybe less trouble on our markets Con: More work for ecologist
For Amakna: Pro: Market development Con: More work for ecologist

Let's skip listing the pros and cons for war here, there are mostly cons. Except that the cons are for everyone and thus even that state is more fair than the state we're currently having and that you're aiming at: "Neutral with Protectionism"

Bonta is a proud nation. And we deserve a fair solution. And as shown above there are 3 fair solutions and one unfair solution. We can not accept the unfair solution.
Dear Rayne, dear members of the Amaknian government,
please understand our point of view and come up with a fair solution.

*curtsies*
~Misfits
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Dear Misfits,

I believe your deduction is somewhat off. Let me try to correct it and add some points you missed from my point of view.

"Alliance"
For everyone: Pro: use of Drago Express, Outlaws have to be much extremer in their destructive abuse of the ecosystem then under Protectionism laws to become Outlaws, though a majority of Outlaws will cease to exist and no longer be victims of circumstances Con: Nothing stops people for not replanting, unless the Ecologist starts protecting resources, which not only hurts abusers, but also fair users of the ecosystem.
For Bonta: Pro: Peace on our markets plus more Amaknians costumers Con: More work for our ecologist
For Amakna: Pro: Use of Dragoturkeys, giving naughty Amaknians a chance to freely steal resources from an Allied nation (which we as the government do not want to promote) Con: Your markets are underdeveloped, More work for your ecologist (note that the work on the Amaknian ecologist and aiding government is much bigger, for we are a farmers nations who try to have all the crops at any time. Crops that the biggest nation with a lot more citizens (Bonta) can't produce in their own land, so most likely they will take it from the cultivated nation, rather then the more or less deserted nation (with all due respect to Riku and his crew) Sufokia.

"Neutral with Protectionism"
For everyone: Pro: Less destruction of the ecosystem by the means of allies Con: People can't use Drago Express. People have to be carefully obey the laws and not accidently become Outlaws; if resources are needed, try to find another nation that has the same resources. With the new region challenge monster-spawnings barely any monster and resources is unique to one nation only.
For Bonta: Pro: Less destruction of the ecosystem Con: Trouble on our markets, Can't fairly use Emelka to train their Farmers, which is restricted to 65 within Bonta.
For Amakna: Pro: Market development, more life within the nations trade bridges altogether, Less destruction of the ecosystem Con: Can't fairly use the Ticket of Yurbut to train our Lumberjacks, which is restricted to 65 within Amakna.

"Neutral" without Protectionism
For everyone: Pro: Outlaws are real outlaws and not victims of circumstances. Con: People can't use Drago Express, Abusive allies can easily steal resources or destroy the ecosystem of an ally, without repercussions, unless the Ecologist starts protected specific resources, which in turn will hurt both ally and the own citizens (even those who use the ecology in a good way).
For Bonta: Pro: Maybe less trouble on our markets Con: More work for ecologist
For Amakna: Pro: Hopefully still Market development Con: More work for ecologist (see note with Alliance); Theoretically the market may develop less quickly as Amaknian citizens are no longer restrained by your laws to visit Bonta freely, thus it will be easier for them to access the Bonta market (which is their good right, but not what we wish to promote). This law is yours though, we can't force you to take it off nor to keep it, and as a governmental member I don't mind that Bonta has Protectionism laws, because that is even better for our nations markets and activity then without your Protectionism laws.

I believe the negatives added in some places may make the perspective of Amakna a bit clearer. I totally understand the view of Bonta and am very sorry for the inconvenience, but it turns out Amakna wants this and that it is best for our nation. Even though I am a persons-person and want to make the Bontarians happy too, especialy the rapid growing Bontarian branch in my guild Signature. I choose to be an Amaknian so have to think of our own people first. Sorry, once again.

NB: this post reflects my personal view and opinions, I haven't yet discussed it in the government.

-Blantuise

PS. Note that we only have Eco-Protectionism. Fighting monsters is still allowed to Bontarians, so e.g. running Plant Dung for Garden Gems is possible without becoming an Outlaw. Even planting the Dandel the Boy seed in the dungeon is allowed, because the dungeon itself is neutral area --so no restrictions there.

With "Markets are safe zones" means that we side with Bontarians (Outlaws or not) that get attacked by Amaknians on our market, and often we give the agressor a firm talk that they wouldn't want to be agressed when just shopping in their nations. But you're right, the game doesn't enforce it, and neither can we, but we at least try to guide and inspire our citizens to leave everyone alone when they're shopping... if that doesn't happen our Head Guard will gladly be of service to everyone who has troubles with this (right, Xtam?). I feel I need to add one more time that there is absolutely no need for any Bontarian to be an Outlaw in Amakna in the first place. You have all the resources, except for 65+ crops, which can easily be gathered AND REPLANTED in Sufokia.

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Dear Misfits

Thanks a lot for your huuuge reply and thorough thinking smile You seem to be very understanding and that's great. It's great to see people thinking with each other about issues like these. I really appreciate it. Having read all the pro's and cons (and the ones Blantuise mentioned, which I agree with), which are about over 9000, perhaps we could try Neutral with Protectionism?

(The Misfits + Blantuise version, correct me if I'm mistaken)

"Neutral" without Protectionism
For everyone: Pro: Outlaws are real outlaws and not victims of circumstances. Con: People can't use Drago Express,Abusive allies can easily steal resources or destroy the ecosystem of an ally, without repercussions, unless the Ecologist starts protected specific resources, which in turn will hurt both ally and the own citizens (even those who use the ecology in a good way).
For Bonta: Pro: Maybe less trouble on our markets Con: More work for ecologist
For Amakna: Pro: Hopefully still Market development Con: More work for ecologist (see note with Alliance); Theoretically the market may develop less quickly as Amaknian citizens are no longer restrained by your laws to visit Bonta freely, thus it will be easier for them to access the Bonta market (which is their good right, but not what we wish to promote). This law is yours though, we can't force you to take it off nor to keep it, and as a governmental member I don't mind that Bonta has Protectionism laws, because that is even better for our nations markets and activity then without your Protectionism laws.

I personally expect this isn't really good for our markets, but we could at least try. Especially if it saves everyone a lot of time, effort and frustration. People with the Outlaw status will be able to get rid of it (just be attacked once by a Guard, if I'm correct, and you're a nation's buddy again). I still have to discuss this with the Government though, but this was just the way I thought about it. I wasn't sure if this was one of the options you could go along with, but I'll find out soon I guess ;p

Thanks a lot again,

-Xx Rayne, Governor of Amakna 

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Dear Rayne,

thank you for your reply. Indeed I think that "Neutral without protectionism" would be an acceptable alternative. As with every trade-off, as all sides have to move, it may not make everyone completely happy, and as we're moving into terra incognita (to my knowledge and memory we never had a state like this before between our nations) we shall see, how it turns out.

Thus expecting a final confirmation from your government before implementing the new policies,
*curtsies*

~Misfits

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I guess we could try, facts are better than speculations ofc. Decreasing of our market would be an effect of Bonta taking off protectionism. That effect will probably occur, but not as drastic as in an alliance. What I'm mainly concerned about regarding the Amakna protectionism law is our ecosystem; the reason why we installed the law in the first place. I'm in the train atm, so can't discuss it with guildies and the government, but you should ask them first, Rayne.

-Blantuise

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Dear Amakna Government,

what is the status of this issue? It should be in everyone's interest if we can close the matter.

*curtsies*
~Misfits

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Not everyone in the government agrees yet, and there are still some guilds we need to ask about.

Voices of Amaknians:
We're still in the moving of our main market to Traff Algar, so it's not the best time for these kind of changes. It also seems that Protectionism of the Amaknian fields promotes going to Sufokia, giving more life to that nation... not sure if it's a serious argument, but thats came up (with me) while discussing this with a few Synergy-members.

Most people we've heard so far are Pro a try, but aren't all that positive about the outcomes. So even when we agree we might have to disappoint sooner then we'd like, when/if things turn out bad. Perhaps you can inspire Bontarians in your speech to choose Sufokia over Amakna for farming issues and to check out our markets occasionaly to keep the damages as little as possible?

Please give us some time to debate about it with the big Amakna guilds.

Kind regards,

-Blantuise
& Rayne

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There should just be complete and total anarchy for a week or two. Just to shake things up.

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War, Pk'ing and pure chaos to get it all out of our systems....hmmmm sounds intriguing biggrin
Hover's over the agro button.....todoornottodothatisthepkingquestion biggrin

~ Love you all! PEACE *lol*
~ Brynheldr

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Brynnhildr|2013-03-13 11:34:46
War, Pk'ing and pure chaos to get it all out of our systems....hmmmm sounds intriguing biggrin
Hover's over the agro button.....todoornottodothatisthepkingquestion biggrin

~ Love you all! PEACE *lol*
~ Brynheldr
That's exactly what I think, besides the hilarity of it. We get it all out of our system. All the pent up frustration and whatnot. People within the nation will have to stop bickering with each other and work together in order to survive (unless they want to get PK'd all over). And by the time the week or 2 war is over, People will be tired of fighitng and settle down to speak rationally. Hell maybe this could happen once a year.
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Have you read the discussion? on this topic and the many others? It won't be much more rational than that. If violence can be avoided, please. Amaknians already are and have to work together (more would still be welcome though) to keep the market and spirits high and ofcourse our busily used, yet pretty ecosystem nice and ordened.

If you want to fight, make tournaments, join the nations events or ask your government to arrange a "friendly" war with other nations. Some/most people do not want to fight, therefore I don't think it will lead to much hilarity, but rather annoyance....

Also, this topic was old and should be closed or anything.

Lastly, did I feed the troll? ._.
Sorry.

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it's only a couple weeks old. And no, no trolling. If we were really on the brink of war, then saying how most don't want to fight isn't true. Just saying that a war would get angst out of people's system. If this war that was might've happened solely because two markets don't play nice with each other, then to hell with the government =P

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That was a year ago. Or 8-10 months, really.

You can't compare the situations. There where wholly different attitudes and not "two markets not playing nice with eachother"... there only was 1 market.

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PidgeonX|2013-03-13 21:06:55
Have you read the discussion? on this topic and the many others? It won't be much more rational than that. If violence can be avoided, please. Amaknians already are and have to work together (more would still be welcome though) to keep the market and spirits high and ofcourse our busily used, yet pretty ecosystem nice and ordened.

If you want to fight, make tournaments, join the nations events or ask your government to arrange a "friendly" war with other nations. Some/most people do not want to fight, therefore I don't think it will lead to much hilarity, but rather annoyance....

Also, this topic was old and should be closed or anything.

Lastly, did I feed the troll? ._.
Sorry.
Yes I have, and you know me Blan! My post was for the sake of the War Troll! I'm an agressive little Iop you know me biggrin

anywayz...was just trolling mon...

Muchas Hugz and epicness to you all (and WAR lol)
~Brynheldr
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oh lol then I fail XD

no you lie! this first post was february 20th 2013!

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Colombiano27|2013-03-14 01:59:57
oh lol then I fail XD

no you lie! this first post was february 20th 2013!
That/this war had other reasons then the market, the war for the market was almost a year ago. This war was sillyness from Bonta. Read the posts maybe? tongue

And sure Bryn, of you I knew tongue I guess we could do like a "friendly war" with Brakmar if you like. You have some island that seems fertile..........
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That's all up to Awiti hehe ^^ since im not the Gov or in it atm "but if I were......COMMAND AND TAKEZ ALL THE ISLANDS!" TBH Ideally Brak should have a more active "pvp heavy" playerbase so that we could plan to do Island conquering like England back in the days! *Raise the BRAHMUH flag on all the Islands* and be like the top dog for a week or 2^^

IMHO War's should happen like for 4 days in a row 1nce every 2-3 weeks atleast tbh^^ to keep the capping of islands interesting^^ but I guess that's something the Brak, and other Gov's need to talk about (or rather fight about) from time to time biggrin

Why Politics? BECUZ WE WUNTZ UR STUFFZZ biggrin
I might decide to put up a decent Gov plan someday in the not to near future *mayb in the summertime* and try to get like a Ein BrakMUH gov running orso^^.... but for now i'm more then happy with the lovely Awiti and the magic he is trying to work for our warm country^^

And ofc much luv to Rayne and her EPPPIIXXXX events^^ she's so epic!

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