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why is it so difficult to balance classes for pvp?

By flashing-blades - MEMBER - November 01, 2020, 22:09:28
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i honestly don't understand why they would choose to nerf ougi to only allow curse x2 and a summon with only 6ap, but then allow something like a masq to run around that one turn people in the very first turn. not even to speak about iops, but masq has an insane amount of buffs, self armoring, heals, good mobilty and resistance lowering. even a five year old child can see that this is completely unbalanced. which is even more unbalanced in 3 vs 3 pvp fights, to be honest it is completely ridiculous how classes are "balanced" for 1 vs 1 pvp, without the least bit concern of how they function in team pvp. and secondly, rogue, i honestly don't know who's bright idea it was to give rogue a spell that allows them to teleport someone directly into their bombs and explode it, especially considering that you can only stabilize yourself once every 3 turns. how incredibly easy do they want to make it to play a rogue? i mean, rogue was already good enough prior to the changes, but now they just made it beyond stupid how easy it is to beat someone with a rogue. why not just give all classes a spell that does 10 000 damage and cost 1ap so we can have real initiative fights? that would honestly be more balanced than this smear they are trying to pass down as balance. level 200 pvp is already a joke, the person that goes first usually wins and now with masq it is even happening on lower levels. really disappointed in the direction this game is heading in.

5 -11
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First Ankama intervention

Hi guys,

We'll be having a live stream on 5 November about class revamps. We are inviting you to come and join the discussion! More info can be found here.

[Flatops]

See message in context
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Score : 1342

ecas pretty broken too flashing-blade. just make a brutality eca lol with high resist.

2 -1
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Score : 554

My guess is because pve comes first.  And you definitely don't want a broken pve class.  Why feca was around so long, idk.  But I LOVE new feca.

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Score : 4238

Oh, its almost, if perhaps, ALMOST, like this game is geared 90% for PVE content which they take great pains to balance since its what people really have fun with, and PVP was just an afterthought because all MMOs MUST have at least one way for players to bully each other. Who would've thunk!

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Score : 4391

Wakfu generally isn't built for PvP balance. But perfect balance is quite boring anyways. Even PvP centric games aren't entirely balanced.

But this game has better and more interesting classes than majority of MMOs. If it wasnt hard to balance classes would be stale. My opinion is there needs to be more structured PvP with a good ruleset, as to deter some cheese and make some builds more interesting(heal mastery being useless isn't cool)

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Hi guys,

We'll be having a live stream on 5 November about class revamps. We are inviting you to come and join the discussion! More info can be found here.

[Flatops]

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Score : 745

Balancing class is not that hard.... The hard part is pleasing everyone, because everyone's idea of  equality is to actually have special treatment and be the most powerful class.

I've seen complainers who complain of one class being OP because he have difficulty beating it, dismissing the fact that his class is OP because he can beat the other remaining 16 classes without any problem. The classes can be balanced on a rock-paper-scissor manner but no one will acknowledge that, (that the classes are balanced), as long as their class cannot beat every other class. Only when their class can beat all other class will anyone be satisfy that the classes are balanced. Such egregious attitude of selfishness normally appears in an unhealthy competitive PvP environment, which is why I prefer the cooperative nature of PVM.  Healthy PvP environment can "make" a game, while an unhealthy PvP environment can "break" a game. 

Just because your Rock class cannot beat a Paper class easily does not mean that the classes are not balance.... You have to take into consideration that you can easily beat a Scissor class, and that a Paper class can easily be beaten by a Scissor class. Is there a class that can never be beaten by all other class?

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Score : 408

There's also 1v1 vs 2v2 vs 3v3 to consider, which will tip the scales towards certain sides and favour certain classes. For example, support and tank classes may favour 3v3 where they can buff a DD ally or lock a DD opponent instead of having 3 DD classes. Pandas favour 3v3 due to having lots of AoE spells. Srams favour 1v1 so that they can focus on stacking haemorrhage. Classes without teleports or have costly ones favour positioners in their team to aid movement. When most people talk about pvp balancing, they use their own standpoint (which is often 1v1), and balancing for that alone may change the balancing on 3v3.

In my opinion, with sufficient team strategy and coordination, a team of 3 people with relatively okay gear can still win against a team of 1 properly geared person and two relatively okay geared people. With that in mind, the dev team would probably think it's more worthwhile to balance for PvE content then to touch the many permutations that can occur from class matchups, then wait for the meta to appear and do adjustments from there. 

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Score : -107

i noticed, for some reason, i am getting negative points for no reason. ironically, i didn't insult anyone in any way. i honestly don't understand how someone's OPINION can make others dislike you. nevertheless, i bet 100m kama that it's all people that play masq and the real joke is... people that play masq actually think it is balanced. l0l... the minds of the human race truly fascinate me at times

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Score : 183

 

flashing-blades|2020-11-06 07:28:26
i bet 100m kama it's all people that play masq and the real joke is... people that play masq actually think it is balanced. l0l... the minds of the human race truly fascinate me at times




l0l... and your brain truly fascinates me at times too
8 0
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Score : 4

Ougi has been nerfed so Raheret the greatest pvper of all time has retired.

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Score : 745

PvP is not a stagnant aspect of a game. Meta can shift and change in a dynamic PvP so if you want to be the greatest PvPer, you have to be versatile and adapt/adjust to the new normal PvP meta. "Git gud" and even "Greatest" is not enough, you have to "GIT BESTEST". LOL

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Score : 3372

 

Gunnerwolfang|2020-11-04 15:13:49

Just because your Rock class cannot beat a Paper class easily does not mean that the classes are not balance.... You have to take into consideration that you can easily beat a Scissor class, and that a Paper class can easily be beaten by a Scissor class. Is there a class that can never be beaten by all other class?
 

I would usually agree with this but we sadly have Iops and Sacriers in game which can and do defeat at least 16 of the 18 classes (if not all classes).

How come these 2 classes get to be this OP and it's totally ok, but any other class than these 2 always get the red haired stepchild treatment?

And don't even get me started on summoner classes like Osa's who have been nerfed many times over the years, and yet another huge nerf is in the works for the near future. Looking forward to that..... NOT!!
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Score : 745

I'm betting that Iops and Sacrier players would disagree.

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Score : 1873

 

Gunnerwolfang|2020-11-18 20:05:44
I'm betting that Iops and Sacrier players would disagree.


I can attest to that. I main Iop, and I can tell you that at level 160 PvP, I get stomped by pretty much any class that has a self-heal, since my only source of Incurable is on a 3-turn cooldown, and Iop doesn't have any real sustain of its own. The class relies on building up Power and trying to blow up what's in front of them, so it's at a big disadvantage against anything that can survive the first turn and has the ability to heal themselves.
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Score : 745

You do not have to tell me, I am not the one claiming that Iop and Sacrier can defeat at least 16 of the 18 classes (if not all classes). I am actually arguing that no class is unbeatable. ROFL

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Score : -2754

@flashing-blades, i only know rogue and masq classes not eca but i noticed couple things after these 2 class revamps.
First is Ankama offered a rogue with better mobility with  new combat variations.
Rogue is now more  fit for strong class speciality but i can say that there are new disadvantages.
and this class isnot stronger than previous mode.
Rogue's damage still similar even Rogue cannot remove armor directly anymore.
Now players can set a rogue with more direct attacks with expensive ap cost and supportive bombs (wp,mp removal) or players can set a class with strong bombs and weak and supportive direct attacks and wait 2-3 turns to destroy opponents at once with low hp steal if possible.
if you want to win against a rogue ,i can suggest you
"break resist" ,"steal armor and ap" and "incure".mostly steal AP from rogue and be tank.
Maybe you can use ruse to switch places with opponent but believe me, it is still less effective than bombot.

Btw Rogue passives are worse when you matched with other classes.Mostly Passives force you to create an indirect rogue with bombs and  passives have got  conditions;
Example: there is no direct masteries like an elio to give 300 berserk mastery. or  melee mastery for each dodge etc. Rogue is indirect damager than other classes all the way cause of high cost of direct spells.
About Masq: i could agree your idea for old Masque but Masq is fit now, masq cannot cast some spells like 3 or 4 times in a turn like old masq and Masq has got condition right now for them, so i count it as gameplay nerf but it is not a power nerf. A late gameplay nerf must have been before...



 

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Score : 3372

Where are the Ecaflip and Ouginak changes?
I can't seem to find them anywhere. Can someone post a link pls?

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Score : 4238

By head I know Ouginak's "Curse" spell is limited to nly 2 casts now and the Bow Wow now have only 6AP. Those two nerfs hit the class PRETTY hard because Curse was a big spell since it dishes great AoE damage with self heal and (with the proper passive) the Bow Wow could cast that same spell TWICE after the Ouginak, essentialy hitting you with Curse 5 times. Now its limited to 3 casts if Bow wow is included.

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