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No Pvp? No hard-core players

By mwriot2 - MEMBER - June 15, 2020, 18:55:54

Change my mind.

4 -30
Reactions 22
Score : 248

Even if it were true (which I don't agree with, given how grindy the game is), why would you think a game would be healthy only ever needing hardcore players? A healthy population for a game involves all types of players, hardcore or otherwise.

Your implication for asking "No pvp? No hard-core players" seems to be that hard-core players are better players for the game, and that the game would be better off with more hard-core players, as if it were a given.

Personally, as part of the working population who also enjoys a bright, beautiful game like wakfu, I can't find time to devote myself to enchanting gear to whatever hardcore status is needed to pvp well, or heck, just doing well in battlefields. That doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the game, or the friends I make while trying to socialise.

Nevertheless, it doesn't seem that bad for the game to have a separate PvP server other than a normal server with consented pvp (the current situation). It's just not good for attracting new players to have only a free-pvp enabled server to join and be pummeled under the rules of whatever survival of the fittest kink you seem to have.

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Score : 3917

If you think PVP makes hardcore players, you probably never reached the endgame content. 5 minutes in the Dor'Mor dungeon and you will see what "Hardcore" is.

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Score : 3044

So far my mind remains unchanged. I've reached the end game for wakfu several times when it was an open world pvp sandbox with the level cap raising time to time.  World pvp and open world bosses was a great mixture it really made guilds feel like they where competing for gear you could only get from them. Not saying end game dungeons doesn't have a place because it wouldn't be wakfu without them. I'm just saying if you weren't around back then then how could you possibly understand what I ment by hard-core? They should have probably fixed world pvp for lower level players but still ultimately feel they should not have removed it and a large part of the playerbase with it. At the end of the day a dungeon is a dungeon no matter how crazy it is. It will never fill the void of open world pvp. But you already knew that.        P.s. I never said the game only needed hardcore players , but given the life of the game it sure couldn't hurt it any. Imagine how many would actually come back if pvp where to finally become payable.

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Score : 5262

I don't get people like you.. If you wanna play PvP so badly why not just go play a game that has heavy focus on PvP multiplayer like an FPS, a Battle Royale or a MOBA?

MMOs are pretty bad at keeping a balance between PvE and PvP and, in my opinion, I feel like most developers should focus on PvE and keep PvP as an after-thought because making changes to characters based on PvP is just terrible optics since some class might get a nerf due to being good at PvP while being terrible at PvE making leveling it worst than it already was.. A Wakfu example are Rogues, pretty good PvP classes but just terrible for PvE or the opposite, Xelors, pretty good PvE class, terrible PvP.. Furthermore some PvP builds won't do well in PvE meaning that in some MMOs some people use the PvE build until max level then have to expend money on a reset to change to a PvP build (I played Ragnarok a lot so I know this is not uncommon, most PvE builds there were focused on heavy damage AoEs that wouldn't work on a PvP scenario like the DragonBreathRuneKnight since players could just, yunno, move out of the way)

Also, this idea of "Without PvP there's no hardcore players" is just incorrect.. There are plenty of MMOs with hardcore dungeons that require a good team composition, communication, formation and strategy in order to defeat, there are dungeons in Wakfu that require the same amount of diligence specially in end-game, you can't go to any Zinit dungeon and just focus on doing damage without thinking of anything else and expect to win (Unless if you go to the lower levels I suppose)..

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Score : 424

games that have good pvp and pve: Final Fantasy 14, World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars 2, Dofus, Star Wars The Old Republic, Blade and Soul, Albion, Aion, Black Desert.... "I don't get people like you" that have zero knowledge about other games and think that just because wakfu has a crap pvp system all the other mmorpg's in the world don't as well. 

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Score : 784

Define what "hardcore player" mean to you first. Cause imo that's someone who has enormous knowledge, gear, skill and dedication to take on challenges regular players can't.

" At the end of the day a dungeon is a dungeon no matter how crazy it is. It will never fill the void of open world pvp."

That's your opinion again. There's so much grind to do in this game, when do you even find time to pvp? I would be super annoyed if someone could just aggro me or my friends randomly when we're heading to dungeon. If anything, make open world pvp like a duel, give the other person the option to refuse. This way you can be hardcore running around and fighting with people who wants to fight, and we casuals will be able to focus on what matters more to us, beating numerous challenges endgame has to offer.

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Score : 3044

 

MiiiiKy|2020-06-17 06:36:52
I don't get people like you.. If you wanna play PvP so badly why not just go play a game that has heavy focus on PvP multiplayer like an FPS, a Battle Royale or a MOBA?

MMOs are pretty bad at keeping a balance between PvE and PvP and, in my opinion, I feel like most developers should focus on PvE and keep PvP as an after-thought because making changes to characters based on PvP is just terrible optics since some class might get a nerf due to being good at PvP while being terrible at PvE making leveling it worst than it already was.. A Wakfu example are Rogues, pretty good PvP classes but just terrible for PvE or the opposite, Xelors, pretty good PvE class, terrible PvP.. Furthermore some PvP builds won't do well in PvE meaning that in some MMOs some people use the PvE build until max level then have to expend money on a reset to change to a PvP build (I played Ragnarok a lot so I know this is not uncommon, most PvE builds there were focused on heavy damage AoEs that wouldn't work on a PvP scenario like the DragonBreathRuneKnight since players could just, yunno, move out of the way)

Also, this idea of "Without PvP there's no hardcore players" is just incorrect.. There are plenty of MMOs with hardcore dungeons that require a good team composition, communication, formation and strategy in order to defeat, there are dungeons in Wakfu that require the same amount of diligence specially in end-game, you can't go to any Zinit dungeon and just focus on doing damage without thinking of anything else and expect to win (Unless if you go to the lower levels I suppose)..


Because people like me discovered wakfu to be a really enjoyable pvp game. . And then it changed... probably? Sorry I just don't get how you couldn't understand that lol. And pvp can't be without pve. When a pvp player gears up they contribute to pve goes without saying. Pretend you are me and you will "get" people like me its not very hard to comprehend that pvp was a major part of wakfu for a long time and there's a playerbase outside of pve that would love to see a revised version return. You all have so far assumed if they brought back open world it would be the exact same. Still haven't changed my mind.

 
PorceeCat|2020-06-17 07:03:38
Define what "hardcore player" mean to you first. Cause imo that's someone who has enormous knowledge, gear, skill and dedication to take on challenges regular players can't.

" At the end of the day a dungeon is a dungeon no matter how crazy it is. It will never fill the void of open world pvp."

That's your opinion again. There's so much grind to do in this game, when do you even find time to pvp? I would be super annoyed if someone could just aggro me or my friends randomly when we're heading to dungeon. If anything, make open world pvp like a duel, give the other person the option to refuse. This way you can be hardcore running around and fighting with people who wants to fight, and we casuals will be able to focus on what matters more to us, beating numerous challenges endgame has to offer.


I agree with your description of hard-core. However all pvp players are required to grind and outgear the competition. When open world pvp was a thing the strongest pve players would inherently be the strongest in pvp. ( gear isn't everything in pvp , still a lot of strategy involved) and yes classes can be quite unbalanced in both pvp and pve. Perhaps i should have been more clear.. Dungeons can never fill the void of open world pvp for a primary pvp player . there are just too many positive outcomes for providing open world pvp. Not to mention what happens when your done with endgame. You just wanna fight the same thing over and over again? So far nobody has provided a solid reason we shouldn't get open world back. I understand yall don't care for getting pk. But its not good enough without knowing how they would revise world pvp. New pvp will be implemented whether we like it or not. Its up to all of us to express our opinions on how we want it implemented. Sooooo uh any ideas rather than the persistent negativity would be a nice change. The point of my post is hardcore players need end game to want to reach it and if you think pvp can't be thr end game you've been playing too much mine craft. The strongest og players that crushed those dungeons yall like so much where scary af in pvp and it was freaking dope JUST SAYIN.
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before discussing any of this . may i ask the point of this thread ?

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"Change my mind" is a horrible debate model and a lack-luster conversation tool.

You've already come to the conclusion that open world PvP was essential because you and the people who you know who enjoyed it believe it so. What then, is the point of any further discussion? You've already made up your mind and no amount of characters on this forum is likely to change it lol.

As to my opinion on the matter:

PvP has moments that can be fun certainly. But for the individuals who are uninterested or would rather spend their time perfecting their skills at learning dungeon mechanics, role-playing, hanging out with friends, or just exploring the games biomes; being PK'd at any possible moment in the middle of whatever task you were doing, was at the very least disruptive and annoying. It also had its moments were people were being stalked and hunted down. Even if you don't invest your money into the game, everyone invests their time. No one wants to feel like they're wasting their time on what is supposed to be an enjoyable experience.

I've been around a while and remember Nox's "Hooks" Era and the cringy attitude of, "Wakfu needs a villain to spur controversy and make things interesting" mentality. All it did was piss people off, make people quit, and negatively effect a chunk of the servers population that had to deal with it.

I do think that the initial wings concept, though flawed, was a step in the right direction. Personally, I think it would have been better to simply work on that PvP model that was in place rather than move it to what it is now. But now that PvP has largely been moved to an agreed upon isolated zone, I feel as though it should just remain entirely separate. Someone's already said it, but balancing against PvP AND PvE is a nightmare. One of the few models that I see making it work is Destiny, which is mostly an FPS with some MMO flavors. They tried to create Ecaflipus to entice people into having some unique battlegrounds for PvP, but hardly anyone was using it because there's no incentive to it. 

I guess I'll end on this, tell me the benefits of PvP, then tell me how you keep it from negatively impacting the core game and the playerbase (not saying that's not possible) and I'll be willing to have another in depth discussion.      

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Score : 1119

You play on NOX, thats HC mode for farming and gearing

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Score : 3044

 

Wareen-Peace|2020-06-17 14:33:06
"Change my mind" is a horrible debate model and a lack-luster conversation tool.

You've already come to the conclusion that open world PvP was essential because you and the people who you know who enjoyed it believe it so. What then, is the point of any further discussion? You've already made up your mind and no amount of characters on this forum is likely to change it lol.

As to my opinion on the matter:

PvP has moments that can be fun certainly. But for the individuals who are uninterested or would rather spend their time perfecting their skills at learning dungeon mechanics, role-playing, hanging out with friends, or just exploring the games biomes; being PK'd at any possible moment in the middle of whatever task you were doing, was at the very least disruptive and annoying. It also had its moments were people were being stalked and hunted down. Even if you don't invest your money into the game, everyone invests their time. No one wants to feel like they're wasting their time on what is supposed to be an enjoyable experience.

I've been around a while and remember Nox's "Hooks" Era and the cringy attitude of, "Wakfu needs a villain to spur controversy and make things interesting" mentality. All it did was piss people off, make people quit, and negatively effect a chunk of the servers population that had to deal with it.

I do think that the initial wings concept, though flawed, was a step in the right direction. Personally, I think it would have been better to simply work on that PvP model that was in place rather than move it to what it is now. But now that PvP has largely been moved to an agreed upon isolated zone, I feel as though it should just remain entirely separate. Someone's already said it, but balancing against PvP AND PvE is a nightmare. One of the few models that I see making it work is Destiny, which is mostly an FPS with some MMO flavors. They tried to create Ecaflipus to entice people into having some unique battlegrounds for PvP, but hardly anyone was using it because there's no incentive to it. 

I guess I'll end on this, tell me the benefits of PvP, then tell me how you keep it from negatively impacting the core game and the playerbase (not saying that's not possible) and I'll be willing to have another in depth discussion.      

This is the best response I've gotten. You are exactly right my mind is already made up however a point you made was the people I socialized wakfu with and I enjoyed it. You can't really find those people around anymore because their incentive has gone. If reintroduced in an acceptable way to appease both sides was an option do you not think pvp would be a good thing for all?
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Score : 4171

Oh of course. I think competition is a great way to retain players who aren't interested in PvE as much as they are in PvP.

If there was a way to incentivize PvP without it being at the expense of others, I don't imagine anyone would oppose. Would you care to detail the things you liked about previous PvP systems Wakfu has tried? 

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I know few hard-core players, and they don't care about PvP

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Score : 424

it is funny that nobody even tried to change your mind. Well in my opinion Wakfu is a handicapped game, it is missing like half of its body because of the lack of PvP. A game without pvp will only have players that do not like pvp, which means that at least, and being generous, 50% of the players that this game could have are currently playing other games because of this decision. The players that still play wakfu can be Hardcore players, which means that they spend a lot of hours playing this game, and learning about it. A pvp player and a pve player can both be hardcore players, and it is really sad that the current player base of this game does not want the game to get more players. It is pretty simple, no pvp = no pvp players or people that just want to play pvp sometimes, like me.

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Score : 1973

Bring back #WAKFUWARRIORSWORLD !

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Wareen-Peace|2020-06-18 14:28:36
Oh of course. I think competition is a great way to retain players who aren't interested in PvE as much as they are in PvP.

If there was a way to incentivize PvP without it being at the expense of others, I don't imagine anyone would oppose. Would you care to detail the things you liked about previous PvP systems Wakfu has tried? 

Yeah of course. A lot of people hated world boss because of pvp but the competing players that tugged of war over the bosses enjoyed competing for them over one another. Government could declare war and you really felt like you where apart of a faction when you fought over territory bonuses. I'm not saying any of these things are perfect I'm just saying I enjoyed those aspects. As to what they should do to fix and reimplement pvp , I'm not sure. I often wonder if they would have to create some sort of major alternative pvp game play that some how ties into pve without rocking the boat. Pvp and pve exsisting in the same world is why I loved wakfu in the first place.

 
Voodudes|2020-06-18 09:25:27
it is funny that nobody even tried to change your mind. Well in my opinion Wakfu is a handicapped game, it is missing like half of its body because of the lack of PvP. A game without pvp will only have players that do not like pvp, which means that at least, and being generous, 50% of the players that this game could have are currently playing other games because of this decision. The players that still play wakfu can be Hardcore players, which means that they spend a lot of hours playing this game, and learning about it. A pvp player and a pve player can both be hardcore players, and it is really sad that the current player base of this game does not want the game to get more players. It is pretty simple, no pvp = no pvp players or people that just want to play pvp sometimes, like me.

Yesir , this is why I believe open world pvp is important because it brings pvp and pve together. More players , more opportunities for a better future game play and balanced evolution between the two over time. I fear that the pvp players leaving wakfu to a majority pve community has put pvp on a serious hold.
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This is a bait thread for flaming.

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Score : 2458

A bit of History:   pensive

Wakfu used to be a balanced world, with all kinds of players - some of whom participated in the "open-world PvP" combats, and many players who did not participate, (indicated by "wings down" in the mouse-over name display)

Some of the "Hard-core" players started acting like serial-killers, attacking everyone at random, including lower-level and "wings-down" (players who did not wish to participate in PvP)     Some of these "Hard-core" bullies even staked out the market on Kelba as their favorite "hunting ground", killing any player who dared approach that market board.   ohmy

This slaughter resulted in many players quitting Wakfu entirely.   People complained that the game was being ruined by the "Hard-core" griefer's and bullies repeatedly attacking,  so Ankama initially made "neutral"s,  (wings-down players who did not have a nation selected), immune to PvP attacks as long as they were not "outlaws".   

The "Hard-core" griefers and bullies quickly ran out of targets.    However, this did not last for long - one of the "Hard-core" guilds found that by cheating the governor election by using alts to vote in their leader as governor, they could modify that nations laws to make all resources "protected" such that anyone harvesting anything became an "outlaw" which they could once again target for PK murder, so the slaughter continued, and more players quit Wakfu.     To end this, Ankama finally removed the "open-world PvP system" entirely and segregated the PvP players into the "battlefields".

If the "Hard-core" PvP players could not respect the rights of other players to decline to participate in PvP, then in my opinion, good riddance to the "Hard-core" bullies.   tongue

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Score : 5262

Diddlydoo sign under!
I remember my first, second and third quit in Wakfu was exactly due to this.. In my first one I couldn't even get to Lv100.. My second one was in another server in which there was a PK-Guild going around attacking new players, after being ganked (and mocked) by 6 Lv200 "Hardcore" players I quit once again (That time I was around 120) and the third time was due to the exploitation of the governor system were I couldn't even farm resources and level my jobs, what a freaking mess.. Yet people still wonder why thy removed this.. In short: Diddlydoo exploiting the system, that's what..

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Nice bait thread. Make sure you don't run out of worms and that your fishing rod doesn't snap in half!

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Score : 1606

 

Kwai-no-kami|2020-06-22 02:12:15
A bit of History:   pensive

Wakfu used to be a balanced world, with all kinds of players - some of whom participated in the "open-world PvP" combats, and many players who did not participate, (indicated by "wings down" in the mouse-over name display)

Some of the "Hard-core" players started acting like serial-killers, attacking everyone at random, including lower-level and "wings-down" (players who did not wish to participate in PvP)     Some of these "Hard-core" bullies even staked out the market on Kelba as their favorite "hunting ground", killing any player who dared approach that market board.   ohmy

This slaughter resulted in many players quitting Wakfu entirely.   People complained that the game was being ruined by the "Hard-core" griefer's and bullies repeatedly attacking,  so Ankama initially made "neutral"s,  (wings-down players who did not have a nation selected), immune to PvP attacks as long as they were not "outlaws".   

The "Hard-core" griefers and bullies quickly ran out of targets.    However, this did not last for long - one of the "Hard-core" guilds found that by cheating the governor election by using alts to vote in their leader as governor, they could modify that nations laws to make all resources "protected" such that anyone harvesting anything became an "outlaw" which they could once again target for PK murder, so the slaughter continued, and more players quit Wakfu.     To end this, Ankama finally removed the "open-world PvP system" entirely and segregated the PvP players into the "battlefields".

If the "Hard-core" PvP players could not respect the rights of other players to decline to participate in PvP, then in my opinion, good riddance to the "Hard-core" bullies.   tongue



in wich server? Coz open world pvp was part of the game very much from day 1 

there already was faction wars between guilds waaay before wings system and people didint quit if anything the agros went down when wings was introduced..

so pardon but im extreemly confused about this sure as heck didint happen on remi.

playerbase was declining since the end of open beta but because the game was p2p and the dev team didint quite know wich way to take the game resulting on unpopular changes.

nice history lesson but sure as heck was not the case for remi.
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ImperiumOfMan|2020-06-21 21:27:35
in wich server? Coz open world pvp was part of the game very much from day 1 

there already was faction wars between guilds waaay before wings system and people didint quit if anything the agros went down when wings was introduced..

so pardon but im extreemly confused about this sure as heck didint happen on remi.

playerbase was declining since the end of open beta but because the game was p2p and the dev team didint quite know wich way to take the game resulting on unpopular changes.

nice history lesson but sure as heck was not the case for remi.

The history I described was of events which occurred on Nox server.    
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