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Let's talk about 1.58.2 patch changes to BGs

By TestAccountDONOTKILL - MEMBER - February 19, 2018, 03:07:00

So I think the patch notes for 1.58.2 are kinda good. Too bad those patchnotes don't remotely represent what the patch actually did!

"Combat will no longer be interrupted when the time limit expires. Instead, the fighting will after the closing of the battlefield, which is 15 minutes later. "

Sounds great. But in practice militia chief fights still instantly end when the BG timer ends and those were THE fights that were most likely to overrun on time in the first place. Additionally these fights autoending now count as a loss for the defenders, so people can lose 2k merit or 3k merit from fights they were WINNING. This is beyond broken and is actually much worse than the scenario we had before (an unfinished fight counting as a draw is annoying, an unfinished fight counting as automatic losses is BS). This is not a fringe problem, I encountered it day one literally first BG after the hotfix.

To put those 1k/2k/3k merit losses into scale let's see how much merit you get from winning PvP fights? I've had +17 merit from winning a 1vs2. Amazing. Or how much do you get from BGs completion? 700 for max rank on a win lol.

"It is no longer possible to close the fight against the Militia Chief, preventing other players from joining, either in attack or in defense."

Good change. But they also made it impossible to lock fights against normal militia, which I don't think anybody was really campaigning for? And there's reasonable arguments why someone might want to lock normal militia fights.

"Merit gain has been decreased at the end of the battlefield depending on the outcome:
Victory: 100/300/500/700 (instead of 250/500/750/1,000)
Defeat: 50/150/250/350 (instead of 125/250/375/500)"

Why do losers get half merit compared to winners anyway? What purpose does that serve aside from ensuring that people in the dominant nation/alliance have twice as much merit as the other nations lol. Which then kinda breaks merit gains/loss from fighting.

Tuneing the merit rewards down seems fine to me because people were racing up the ranks a bit too fast, but I think it should've been matched with bigger merit gain opportunities on fights themselves. Which don't really seem to have changed? (Merit losses have changed, but not gains I believe).

"After having picked up a flower in the opposite area, it will now be necessary to wait for it to bloom (3 minutes), symbolized by a state, before being able to deposit it in your flowerpot."

Okay this stops the flower run spam. But wait, the blooming countdown resets whenever you get into a fight so if you're trying to score a flower then you can do literally nothing else in the meantime. Get into a fight and lose means you lose your flower and get a 5(?) minute lockout debuff. Get into a fight and win means your 3 minute countdown resets. Either way you aren't delivering that flower soon lol. The suggestion I saw a dozen times was to limit the number of available flowers, and everyone seemed to agree that would help... but no we just get a timer that slows the mode down but doesn't make flowers valuable.

Presumably the idea of flower capture is that players fight over flowers, like every other CTF mode ever. In practice this never happens because if you do want to fight people you're best off letting them grab a flower then immediately killing them rather than really trying to hunt existing flower carriers... and it's basically impossible to curtail all flower carriers trying to leave your base. As a flower carrier after you've exited the enemy base you're forced to AFK to do anything with it which is just boring. So I mean I must've seen hundreds of CTF variants over the years and this is uncontested the worst one I've ever seen, where flower defence is impossible and flower attacking is boring and flowers/flower carriers themselves feel meaningless. And farming darth wodent (or doing the repeat farm normal wodent exploit) is arguably more rewarding than interacting with flowers at all.


Also why on earth is there such a heavy PvE element in what's obstensibly PvP modes. Show me a single PvPer who said "I want to farm boxes in PvP". Never happened. And yet not only is there a significant PvE element here but PvEing the BGs is arguably very efficient and reliable. You can get B ranks farming boxes (A's if you get into chief fights too, and remember that defending a chief is a horrible gamble so most chief fights are uncontested) and A ranks from farming darth wodents. The biggest point generations here are PvE tasks (darth wodent, militia chief) and they can be done more quickly, safely and easily than taking down dangerous opponents. And these high point generation activities have limited slots so you end up with people from the same team competing with each other, which is just dumb really.

And let's talk about PvP fights a moment. IMO 1v1 PvP on wakfu is garbage, always has been (tank meta and ini meta can go die). Team fights however are much better, but the BGs really don't cater to team fights. For one thing higher player counts means longer fights which means greater likelihood of the fight being interuppted due to time (let's be real here, currently most ~6v6 militia chief fights end due to time rather than one side wiping the other out). The objectives don't really serve to force players into big fights because defending a chief is a massive technicality-loss timebomb and darth wodent you can end up competing with your own team as much as the opposing team. Running around picking off targets will get people 1v1s and 2v2s but I really haven't seen many big fights develop organically because well a lot of the BG activities kinda split people up and deliberately grouping up for larger fights doesn't really feel rewarding.

Maybe people disagree with some of that, but I don't think it's controversial to say wakfu is better for team fights than 1v1s and I really don't think BGs cater to team fights.

Anywho, as a suggestion that will get immediately ignored. I think it'd be cool to have variants of BGs that enabled the use of heroes. I mean I do think it's good for BGs to be predominantly single character (no multibox/no heroes), but if say 20% or 25% of BGs had heroes enabled (especially at high levels) that might promote group fights a bit more and allow for a slightly different dynamic. I was originally against heroes in BGs and still think it would be bad for that to apply to all BGs, but as a minor variant it might be interesting.

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Reactions 12
Score : 16341

I was about to say that if they allowed sidekicks I would support the heroes part. But later I considered those 3 Sacriers or 3 Osamodas parties and ditched the idea. No, thanks.

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Score : 5508

I read this one through, word for word.

I disagree about Heroes, since it's hard to tell exactly what you'd be getting when you attack a player. You might see an Ecaflip and think "I have a chance to win" but then you get an Ecaflip and two Sacriers.
Being able to size up your opponent and evaluate their strength relative to yours is an important part of any sport.

As for the issue of merit awarded at the end of a BG, I agree with you that losers should receive the same as winners. At first I wasn't sure, but I thought about what you said, and about what I've experienced.  You're right that with the current system, competent players from a smaller nation receive inferior rewards in a way that is unfair. But the problem with equalizing the rewards is it reduces the incentive to win. I think something would have to be done to compensate for that. A lot of players do not care about controlling territory, so that cannot be the only thing determined by winning or losing.

The chief fights definitely need to be included in the 15 minute grace period after a BG ends, and I cannot wait until the merit-loss bug is fixed, since I've already lost 9000 merit to it. Same for the 3 minute flower timer resetting after a fight, which I HOPE is a bug and not intended design.

I'd suggest that defeating wodents should not award any points to the team. The Jumpin Gap Jacks and Ecaflip Paws should be reward enough for the time invested. Not sure about Darth Wodent.

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Score : 11805

The heroes thing I can take or leave really. Just thought it might be an interesting experiment as a variant alternative. It's the chief merit loss bug that I care about the most.

"Being able to size up your opponent and evaluate their strength relative to yours is an important part of any sport. "

I kinda don't think this works that well in wakfu anyway. Because people can't run away from fights that they know are to their disadvantage and because if you start an advantageous fight then a bunch more opponents could join to completely flip the balance and you have no way to disengage. In your example you could pick a fight with an eca and 2 more sacs joined anyway, though admittedly that's rather unlikely on standard BGs and it could happen 100% of the time on hero BGs.

"You're right that with the current system, competent players from a smaller nation receive inferior rewards in a way that is unfair. But the problem with equalizing the rewards is it reduces the incentive to win. "

I think the grade system already largely serves as this incentive, because the things that result in you getting a better personal grade also usually result in generating points for your team. Getting an A gives better rewards than a B gives better rewards than a C gives better rewards than a D.

Yeah I guess in some scenarios you could do something that'd be bad for your personal score but would help your team to win. But I think that's a rarity and most of the time there's good overlap between what helps you and what helps your team.

The main scenario I can think of where you help your team to win but don't get a good personal score from it, is long battles against powerful players. But I think the answer to this is to increase the "participation points" from those types of battle. Also I kinda think someone has to be an idiot not to care about the territory control (either that or they're planning to switch to the winning nation lol).

And well you could have it where losers got the same BG merit as winners, but got say half as many glory orbs as winners of the same rank did.

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Score : 599

I'd really like to highlight the Chief win conditions with the BG endings.

Ankama, what you are doing with this is driving away the community from any attempts at sizable PvPs (4v4 at minimum) as well as promoting abusable behavior (attack the chief with a tanky squad and you've won in any case).

You need to LIST these sort of changes to us and make us very aware what we are risking.

p.s. as a paying player, I expect a form of compensation.

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Score : 11805

To clarify here, Bambi filled a bug report ticket when he lost 4000 merit to a militia chief defence he was winning.

Ankama support then told him that it was "not a bug" and said that he should read the patch notes. 10/10 support, 10/10 QA, working as intended!

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Score : -3031

I disagree with flower mode statements, thats straight up wrong, entering a fight does not reset your flower downtime.

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Score : 11805

Yes it does. Oh okay well technically... ENDING a fight resets your flower downtime. Which is worse.

Happens to me literally all the time.

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Score : 5508


blazakkhakabow|2018-02-19 07:43:38
I disagree with flower mode statements, thats straight up wrong, entering a fight does not reset your flower downtime.

It happens to me and my guild mates consistently.
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Score : 430

Jumpin gap jacks are now useless with the cool down, it takes so long that you could run there and back and STILL have time to waste. I think I preferred the flower game before the update. It has indeed become a wodent-killing game instead. I don't think the fix is to adjust the wodent's ability to give points, per se, maybe less points--- The flower cool-down is the thing that should be adjusted. But I guess even then, the camping thing alone may cause someone to choose the wodents over flowers. I think though that it's a better idea to make flowers more important.


BloodAspect|2018-02-20 08:47:10
Not useless because you get to the flower faster, so cooldown starts faster

Oh really? I'm kinda out of the loop with BFs. Thanks for letting me know. (Haven't tried it yet, but maybe my opinion will change.)
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Score : 1435

Not useless because you get to the flower faster, so cooldown starts faster

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