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Score : 427

Battlefields, as seen by someone who doesn't like to pvp

By Cheesey22 - MEMBER - February 13, 2018, 20:37:26

Evening everyone, my IGN is Deathham and if you've done battlefields lately I'm sure you have seen me around. I wanted to make a post to address the state of battlefields from a different point of view than what we've been seeing. First and foremost I would like to say that battlefields dont function in any way to satisfy dedicated pvpers or even a more casual audience.

If you aren't pvping, battlefields are a dull, tedious experience. While I understand this was meant to be the big content replacement for open world pvp the whole experience of getting a flower, running it back and repeating or killing some oddly balanced NPC then opening crates gets stale very quickly. More game modes as a possible fix?

The de-buff you receive for dying, disconnecting, or sometimes just no reason at all is staggering. So my first experience with this was disconnecting during a fight, "okay, that is only fair" I told myself. Roughly 3mins into the debuff I end a fight with militia and get teleported back to spawn, only to receive the debuff at a full 5 mins again...the battlefield wasn't even half way over. You know what is fun? Getting a debuff preventing you from actively doing anything for 5 minutes, oh wait IT'S NOT. Consider reducing the timer on it and fix the bugs causing it to constantly appear.

The default ALS system is poorly balanced for pvp. I have to say that while it may not be an issue for people who devote themselves solely to pvp, people who just want an item or want to experience battlefields are at a staggering disadvantage compared to geared fully spec'd pvpers. When describing battlefields to my friends the same thing I always hear is "isn't that p2w?" and I don't think I could say no honestly. Also asl Osa summons suck and are buggy as all heck

Stalling fights. While it sure isn't honorable it is a legitimate tactic, the pvp community should be the ones to establish an honor system and deal with this.

Wings. I like how wings are easier to earn, pvp prowess should be shown on the leaderboard, not by wing size.

Class balance. I'm not going to touch on this as I don't intend to shoot myself in the foot more than I already have so to speak. 

Defenders VS Attackers. I do find it pretty odd in the vision of fair play that it's literally every nation against one defending team. Granted strong alliances can help soften the blow but a 1v4 nation battle isn't exactly fair. Maybe have each nation/alliance fight and whoever has the most points wins the territory? (points would be per nation just to be extra clear, not just attacker and defender)  ZeraKoN has a forum post with a more thought out idea for each nation, I'd give his a look.

Glory orbs & Merit. So it was brought to my attention by Cecet, shout out to him/her, that the ecaflipus arena DOES NOT provide merit or glory orbs. These are already in-game and provide decent content that I think most pvpers would enjoy with fair XvX fights. Save the dev time and just make these provide the rewards pvp desire.

Alliances. Not establishing alliances between your nations/pvp guilds is in no way amkana's job. They said it and I'll say it, be proactive and get your nation leaders to help secure your victory.

Explain how the grading system works. I honestly only had twice where I got over a C ranking despite running flowers/opening crates for the entire match. I also won 0 of the pvp fights I took part in so I'm sure pvp weighs heavier. Just explain how the system works and save everyone the headache

  • The pvp community needs good content, they have earned it
  • Rework the ecaflipus arena to provide merit/glory orbs
  • Make the grading system clear
  • Alliances/stalling are player problems, not something devs need to work on
  • Wings are fine as they are, national rankings should show pvp skill
  • ALS system needs a look for PVP
The purpose of this post isn't to blame the dev team or the player base but to encourage a discussion between/amongst the two. I look forward to seeing everyone's feedback
10 -3
Reactions 10
Score : 12046

The tedious part, it is somewhat like this for the flower-hunting one. It is basically a run there, run back, repeat, rather than hunting flower thieves. Which makes sense, mainly because the side outnumbering the other one wins the flower race. It should treat each non-allied nation separatedly for the scoring. Or any nation for the matter, because the way to adjudicate the area to the winner nation is a bit relative.

The debuff, too long for matches that usually last 5 minutes. In those 3 minutes you can't do anything useful, so you are basically out unless someone else starts the battle for you to join.

The default stats are a problem against players that can afford many stat/inventory pages for specializated builds. There, the payment user has adventage over non-payment ones. Make inventory pages tradeables and not Ogrines-only, and then we are talking about fairness. (Non payment players would barely have more pages than the classic "Melee", "Ranged", and "Recyclable" ones. Thus being in heavy disadventage versus the players having "Melee", "Ranged", "Reduced 80", "Reduced 111", etc.)

Stalling/trolling fights will always exist: defensive Pandas/Fecas/Sadidas, escaping Drhellzerker Enutrofs, self healing whatever-classes-can-do-it... This can't be fixed unless there is some kind of stalemate like in chess, if X turns have passed, or if during those turns the HP from both sides hasn't variated from X%... something like that.

Wings? No idea. I never cared about them, nor do now. So, I can't say anything here.

Defenders VS attackers. The problem, counting all non-defenders as a single side. Each one should keep their own scoring, rather than all of them sharing the score even if they are nations at war each other.

Merit and orbs from Ecaflipus? Absolutely nope. We already knew how players inflated their ranks by bribing or multi-accounting to win PvP fights. The battlefields openness prevents this from happening. We don't want to repeat this error from the past, as fairness never existed due to this. So, Ecaflipus just for training/practice/friendly duelings.

And yeah, the grade and scoring system needs to be more explicit. Like saying what actions give score and how much, what actions have more weight, what is the "judgement" for declaring the attacker nation that will gain the control of the territory, etc.

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Score : 427

Very well said, maybe rework ecaflipus to allow queueing for your own team but always randomize the opposing team as to prevent blatant merit farming? I can't really think of a good way around people farming merit with the limited nature of pvp content in game

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Score : 11623

Let's start by talking about stalling and the lockout debuff.

Firstly you can stall like HELL in wakfu.

A weak player can stall a strong player for ~15 minutes depending on matchup.
A strong tank can stall a strong player for ~40 minutes to 2 hours.
A strong tank can stall a weak player literally indefinitely. Possibly stall 2 or 3 people like this.

(For comparison an average flower capture on remi lasts about 8-10 minutes and an average escort mode on remi lasts about 20-30 minutes).

You can say there's strategy to it, but it's really toxic unhealthy strategy with basically no counter. Forcing people into extremely long extremely boring fights with essentially 0 reward is the kind of thing that SHOULDN'T be advantageous or effective, because it's the exact opposite of fun for everyone. The best counter I can imagine is stalling them first with your own stallers. Or let's say you gang a stall character with your very strongest, you're still losing your 3 heaviest hitters for possibly 10 minutes so that's not an amazing tradeoff.

Additionally whilst people might use stalling strategically on Nox, on remi it's mainly done as a troll move. "lol it'll be funny to waste this guy's time"

You can say it's up to the community to solve this, but people's ability to do anything about it is pretty limited. What can you do? Have some kind of mutually assured destruction policy where I loudly claim if you waste my time I'll then switch to my feca and lock us both in a stalled out draw fight for the entire BG.

And if you look at stasis dungeons clearly the devs realize that wakfu lends itself to massively stalled fights so they implemented mechanics to hinder stall strategies. On s21+ bosses gain +15% fd +20 res every turn after turn 7. On s31+ bosses gain +1 range +1mp every 10 turns starting on the 3rd. etc etc I'm not saying BGs should 1:1 copy those ideas but I do think there's scope to introduce mechanics that limit stalling. Turn the edge of map glyph to 2000 fixed damage lava, and from turn 5 onwards the lava encroaches inwards 1 tile a turn (having a small map is BS on turn 1 because it means people can get instakilled before they get a chance to do anything, having a small map on turn 10 is fine imo because people can plan around that). From turn 7 onwards everybody gets -20% armour generation, -20% healing. Combine that with fights not ending when BG ends and longer lockout penalty from longer fights then you might have incentives not to stall fights endlessly.

I mean consider the following options and think about what makes for a better game
1) Create a PvP system where tedious boring stall strategies are effective, and vainly hope the players develop some kind of e-bushido honour system to not use them.
2) Create a PvP system that prevents and penalizes tedious boring stall strategies.

To me option 2 is vastly superior.

Also... it's funny how you complain about the lockout debuff which lasts I think 5 minutes, when stall fights can literally last hours. One of these timescales is clearly more substantial than the other. Which also means the lock debuff can be kinda marginal compared to the timescale of the fight. Winner lost 20 minutes (and got a measly +50 points). Loser lost 23 minutes. You can say "well in a fight you can do something", but if it's an obvious stall fight and it's obviously going to end in a 2hr draw then you aren't really doing anything are you. So I could really do with the lockout debuff being longer for longer fights.

For class balance. Main things I can think of are sacrier mobility is too strong (means they can play horribly the whole fight and insta-win in cling anyway because they can completely overcome the mobility drawback in cling), sacrier sacrifice should be disabled whils the sac is in clinging to life, Rattler summon is too strong (makes ALS 80 osa insanely strong but means real lvl 110 osa is vastly superior to ALS 110 osa because the real lvl osa can pick better summons lol), and somewhat tangentially .. the side stairs map is absolutely disgusting for some range vs melee matchups (unless the melee has a non-los teleport).

"Alliances. Not establishing alliances between your nations/pvp guilds is in no way amkana's job. They said it and I'll say it, be proactive and get your nation leaders to help secure your victory."

It's not Ankama's job to build nation alliances, but it is their job to come up with balanced rewarding fun systems. And yet on basically every server you have one power alliance (or single nation) taking over the world. This is what's happening on Remington, Nox, Phaeris, Elbor and Efrim. French servers I don't know about so I won't speak about them. So if it was one server that had issues with nation balance you could argue that was a problem with the players on that server. When it's happening over and over again on many different servers that suggests there's a problem with the system itself.

"Form alliances!" ignores the issue that one nation will be stuck without an alliance partner. Fighting defensive battles alone (the ones you actually care about more) is a big disadvantage unless your nation can field 40 players by itself. Fighting losing battles seems pointless and unrewarding compared to jumping ship to the winning side. Dissolving power alliances for the sake of opposition seems pointless and unrewarding. Because fights themselves don't seem rewarding inside BGs. Yes farming flowers and curbstomping militia/militia chiefs is kinda tedious, but in my experience it seems like the most efficient and rewarding way to play BGs.

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Score : 427

Thanks for the response,

When I think of stalling I can't help but remember almost every pvp game mode I've played from other larger games and how it is treated a legitimate strategy. But with wakfu the battlefields aren't so much the issue as classes being able to hold fights for 1+ hour while actively doing nothing, yes you could just bring your own stallers on alts but I know that isn't a very fun solution for anyone. The question comes into play "when if the fight so long you know it is stalling" some classes have very long turns and it wouldn't be right to punish people for just playing the class. The ASL osa has been...buggy to say the least, I've had some of my mobs from moon appear in my gobgob at lvl80 and vice versa , plus with the default asl you may not get to use what is best for your play style. I do continue to believe the debuff is outrageous, but lowering it to just 3 minutes and fixing the bugs would be a good enough fix. Regarding alliances I would say the reason we're seeing such powerful alliances is due to planning ahead of time by pvpers, removing alliances won't solve much as people will still jump ship to a single nation or just have their former alliance buddy's get on alts from the defending nation. It also boils down to what nation has people actually willing to devote to battlefields and on Nox it seems there are only 3-4 that show in force, population issues are out of the hands of everyone. I'd love to hear any possible solutions to alliances that amkana could put in that doesn't negatively impact everyone as I can't really think of one myself. I';m sure someone has recommended this somewhere before I just can't find it exactly.

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Score : 4100

I never liked PvP. Don't like it now either.
But this battle fields are fun since it gives me kinda thrill and fun running around killing mobs and carrying flowers and calling in crates since there is a mission kinda motivation behind it which gives a purpose to play in a collaborative manner, And there are lots of people on the field which is kinda nice to see as well.

Yes, There are issues on the field about balancing and things but the fun and thrill part is also there to this mini game modes and i kinda like that part. smile

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