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Bored, lets talk about the Rogue + Feca Boss kill gag.

By SethReveros March 12, 2016, 23:53:43

Since its starting to sound like they MIGHT push to april now for the update (meaning it will have been 4 months instead of 3 months since the december update), based on seeing a few comments on the forum, i feel like talking about a certain thing that's been on my mind for a bit. How exactly does the Feca+Rogue instant kill combo i've been hearing about here and there on the forums, especially as a 'means to kill one or more of the particular moon island bosses before it can do its 'pratically auto death summon mob move'.

From what i understand or believe to understand how it works, is that it makes use of Feca's Final damage buffs thru Meteorites, Magma field, +4 AP from tonic gylph, Inversion's final damage buff and the resist reduction from magma's gylph's version, inversion's -100 resist and maybe the leather plate bonus that raises the damage a enemy will take by 20% when applied.

With it making use of Rogue's pulsar that revolves around a damage base equal to how much ap is expended for it (with Feca that should be 16 ap basically on a standard 12 ap), in addition to any other modifiers that are involved.

If anyone wants to correct me on how it actually works, that would be nice, because when i tried to calculate it a while back, it seemed like the damage was alot less then it sounded like it would be. Especially if its supposed to dish out what i assume is 30k~60k or something damage in one shot on a end game dungeon boss, after final resist too.

Doesnt help either that i end up being 'more' curious as i've used a ecaflip when 'All in' was the original 'Expend all AP to deal massive damage to a single target and even had a gag of doubling up the damage with a second hit with the chance being based on how much AP was used, but it then got changed alot such as having a ap cap of 10 and being replaced with only removing 4 ap from a target at the same AP per % of chance rate. ((

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You've got it right. It helps to have a secondary buffer as well. Osa works best but many options exist.

This combo is too strong and I would expect Ankama to nerf it soon. Alas, rogues will go from top of the heap to red-headed stepchildren once that happens. Feca's life will probably get harder too but they won't stop being essential.

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Rogues are overrated. You can 1shot this boss without a Rogue perfectly fine.

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Many DD class can do same with feca... idk why people think it's only Rogues. Anw, lots of drama as usual.

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shankissimo|2016-03-13 00:23:02
Rogues are overrated. You can 1shot this boss without a Rogue perfectly fine.
 
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Yeah, Rogue's pulsar is not the broken part of the combo. It's strong but it's hardly the problem. The only reason it's favored is that on bosses with significant phase switches (like Vertox and Flaxhid) it can bypass them. Rogues do get a pretty huge amount of final damage and crits through Bomber Fan stacks that can only reliably be generated at the start of a fight.

Any of the leading damage dealers can do the trick though, especially if they can generate preparation like effects (including good Fluctuation abusers), or simply use huge ranged damage (Cra).

Pulsar just happens to be the easiest spell to abuse on certain bosses.

Feca's crazy efficient debuffs are the core of the problem, and even then only because they can do that efficiently without sacrificing any of their other top-tier support abilities.

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Caliiintz|2016-03-13 00:39:04
Many DD class can do same with feca... idk why people think it's only Rogues. Anw, lots of drama as usual.
The reason i assume it would always be Feca + Rogue is due to the gimmicks that rogue can put out.

(Damage bonus based on having more init then a target, Damage bonus based on how much init it has, The base value is determined literally by every point of AP used by said skill, could also be FURTHER boosted if fusiliade was thrown into the mix (+4 more AP plus other boons).

Especially when i tried to crunch this with the assumption of a lvl 134 feca+rogue with a few rough idea values, (which a lvl 134 pulsar would be 21 base per AP, 26 if crit).

Though if All in for Ecaflip has a typo where it is 'not' capped at 10 ap for the damage boon, then i could highly imagine it would have a better modifier due to a up to self buff of up to 40% final damage due to double or quits, The scaling value, damage boon from ecaflip streak, its pratically natural way to instant snatch to high crits, etc.

Well, once again i'd have to test things out to see if they actually work, would also end up with me having to drop my dual element ecaflip build in favor of a tri build.

As for the bomber'fan gimmick, not exactly a user of rogue too often even if i have one as my 4th alt on one account (feca sadly being on the same one), so i didn't understand all the elements in place.

If i do end up swapping around some alts, then i might try for a Earth/Fire Rogue instead of a Earth/Wind one i guess lol
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To clarify how the combo tends to work..

Feca applies three separate debuffs to the enemies. Inversion (-100 Res, +20% final damage), Magmatic Armor (Usually about -90 res), and Templarmor (+20% damage taken, -20% damage dealt). Templarmor is free to apply, Inversion costs only 2 MP & 1 WP, and Magma usually costs the feca only 1 AP & 1 MP. That's... a lot to debuff one enemy for only 1 AP spent. -190 Resist comes out to increasing the damage the enemy takes by roughly 52%, which stacks with the separate Templarmor debuff to increase the damage the enemy takes by roughly 82.4%

Then you take into consideration all the preparation & final damage the damage dealer has. After all of those bonuses on any attack they're using, they've basically got a free 1.82x damage multiplier. And this applies to the entire team, in case the favorite falls short.

As a starting point, look at a critical Pulsar with 20 AP and 50% final damage. (Fusillade, level 50 Bomber Fan, and +4 AP from Tonic. Just the stuff that the Feca and Rogue are virtually guaranteed to get. It gets crazier the more damage bonuses you add.)

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Have you ever thought, that it's not necessary to use All in to compare to a Rogue.

Pulsar has a solid rate of 31dmg/ap. If you compare it with a proper rotation with the same amount of AP. You'll get much higher results. A Cra Riddling arrow(2x), Raining arrow, Destructive arrow = 90(2) + 100(1) + 240(1) = 520 vs 495 for the same amount of ap.

PRactically is called into question,but that's only dependent on boss mechanics. Sometimes Pulsar really sucks, like hitting a Crolk, Or it's really useful for hitting Xelor past HC boss because phase 3 resets everyone and hard for DD consistently keep up the deeps.

But seriously, Rogue Pulsar does less damage than a Melee just going ham with all his AP.

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Hearttyace|2016-03-13 01:42:43
Have you ever thought, that it's not necessary to use All in to compare to a Rogue.

Pulsar has a solid rate of 31dmg/ap. If you compare it with a proper rotation with the same amount of AP. You'll get much higher results. A Cra Riddling arrow(2x), Raining arrow, Destructive arrow = 90(2) + 100(1) + 240(1) = 520 vs 495 for the same amount of ap.

PRactically is called into question,but that's only dependent on boss mechanics. Sometimes Pulsar really sucks, like hitting a Crolk, Or it's really useful for hitting Xelor past HC boss because phase 3 resets everyone and hard for DD consistently keep up the deeps.

But seriously, Rogue Pulsar does less damage than a Melee just going ham with all his AP.
Remember i was talking about the OLD "All In" aka when it was still good. Long time ago when i still enjoyed playing as a Earth/Water ecaflip back in beta times and before the game ever went Free to play for 'real' (aka limited free access), I enjoyed the All in back then because it spends all your AP and does damage per AP used (just like how Pulsar does, but it has no literal cost outside of all the AP it uses, nor does it end your turn or cost any WP or MP), In addition to that it had a gag of about a 5% chance per ap used of doing a second hit with the same base value of damage. Even if it was way back then, i found it super lethal especially on low earth resist enemies to effectively chunk their hp, especially when things like Final Damage and Final resist didn't exist either.

If the double up damage still existed for All in (aka a 2nd hit), then its current rates would blow Pulsar out of the water in so many ways, especially since back then, critting would bump the 5% per ap to 10%, though it did eventually had some 'cap out' for the chance of double up, but it was still a easy 50% or so chance for some huge damage.

Never the less, when you can pull off damage cannons with ease, you know the majority of a well informed game's player base is gonna have that meta done almost every time to easy win tough fights.

Not to mention i would also take into account for some boss mechanics that might have some ridiculous gimmicks such as forcibily making a boss invinc or gain a major stat buff once it breaks a particular hp threshold. If you can end up dealing a huge one shot damage chunk to a enemy it forces it to skip a phase, then that can be very useful, though i can't exactly list a few particular bosses really...
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SethReveros|2016-03-13 05:39:09
Remember i was talking about the OLD "All In" aka when it was still good.
I don't like such people. if you can't make it good, doesn't mean it isn't good.
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Essentially this:

The Feca is itself not overpowered, but is overpowered in the sense that it makes everyone else overpowered.

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by the way, why is there a limit on all in but not on pulsar?
is it just because all in doesnt use mp while pulsar does? how do their damages compare with the same amount of ap at level 200?

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  1. Ecaflips have more damage buffs that support All In OTK strat *cough Precise Hit, Heads/Tails, DoQ, Cat Tree, Tarot, Eca Die, Hot Potato etc. cough*
  2. All In has secondary effects based on AP used.
  3. All In has insane Fluctuation potential while Pulsar has next-to-none.
  4. Pulsar costs 2MP AND WP while All In costs nothing other than your AP.
 
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The craziest things about pulsar imo are

#1 you can guarantee a critical

#2 you can buff it by 1.4x with elemental disciple

I've pulled 100k pulsars on vertox and 60k pulsars on Koko the Nutt.

without carnage.

so... yea

it basically comes down to a iop wont crit 100% of his attacks (unless you buff with osa and elio or eca or something)

a iop can't do it all at once (AKA vertox phase changes)

A Iop has to get in melee while a rogue just has to get linear.

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Feca is absolutely overpowered. There's a lot of talk about it on the forums (most of it from the same people) but the short version is that they get to perform every non-damage non-healing role with unparalleled efficiency in a single deck. They have the most ridiculously efficient debuffs, the most efficient buffs, solid positioning, and the best tanking effects all at once.

As for rogues.. large stacks of Bomber Fan are pretty crazy, yeah. Only thing I would see as a problem.

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crimsoncowboy|2016-03-13 12:26:44
by the way, why is there a limit on all in but not on pulsar?
is it just because all in doesnt use mp while pulsar does? how do their damages compare with the same amount of ap at level 200?
Doesn't use MP and WP.
Eca has ease of FD, if I'm not wrong it has more FD aswell.
All in has 1 Dmg/ap off of it and has a secondary effect.
Honestly, if All in wasn't capped. It'd be hands down the best spell in earth for Ecas. Eca is more balanced this way.

Ennjeidp|2016-03-13 12:20:01
Essentially this:

The Feca is itself not overpowered, but is overpowered in the sense that it makes everyone else overpowered.
Magic strings/Poem of bragi in a game with a party cap. You only wanted one clown because it didn't stack, but you always wanted a clown.

Most servers knew they needed to adjust it.

Iop would deal far more than pulsar if he was set up right. It's just not necessary when Pulsar does enough damage to wipe a boss. Pulsar isn't particularly the problem. If you nerfed that, we'd just use another DD and it'll be a little harder, only a little.
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HateSpawn|2016-03-13 16:40:06
The craziest things about pulsar imo are

#1 you can guarantee a critical

#2 you can buff it by 1.4x with elemental disciple

I've pulled 100k pulsars on vertox and 60k pulsars on Koko the Nutt.

without carnage.

so... yea

it basically comes down to a iop wont crit 100% of his attacks (unless you buff with osa and elio or eca or something)

a iop can't do it all at once (AKA vertox phase changes)

A Iop has to get in melee while a rogue just has to get linear.
The described pulsar absolutely requires teammate asistance.
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shankissimo|2016-03-13 12:50:40
  1. Ecaflips have more damage buffs that support All In OTK strat *cough Precise Hit, Heads/Tails, DoQ, Cat Tree, Tarot, Eca Die, Hot Potato etc. cough*
  2. All In has secondary effects based on AP used.
  3. All In has insane Fluctuation potential while Pulsar has next-to-none.
  4. Pulsar costs 2MP AND WP while All In costs nothing other than your AP.
And in practice this can only be done 1% of the time. Ecaflip is not in a good shape for this, only happens when the stars align.
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Gelgy|2016-03-13 19:05:59
Feca is absolutely overpowered. There's a lot of talk about it on the forums (most of it from the same people) but the short version is that they get to perform every non-damage non-healing role with unparalleled efficiency in a single deck. They have the most ridiculously efficient debuffs, the most efficient buffs, solid positioning, and the best tanking effects all at once.

As for rogues.. large stacks of Bomber Fan are pretty crazy, yeah. Only thing I would see as a problem.
To be fair there is a lot of drama/hate post about any class in the game... A week the feca is too OP, the other week the Sadi is, then the rogue, people been telling sram was OP too, etc etc.... just never ending drama
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