FR EN ES PT
Browse forums 
Ankama Trackers

Pandawa's Half Empty Pint

By PrinnyJeans February 19, 2012, 18:40:11

So I decided to record a few videos for your viewing pleasure,
so that I can share with everyone why I'm such a terribad panda,
and why fire/water is not a viable route for solo play.

No, I'm not full hp. You'll notice I've invested in +1 range.
This makes it much easier to manipulate the barrel and gives
me more versatility in group play - but watch as I demonstrate
how weak and pointless a barrel is solo thus rendering my range
useless in 1vs1 PvE against enemies close to my level.

Click here
- Here you see me using a barrel and fire/water spells against a scarecrow. I'm made very much aware of their 50% resist to water as I attempt to utilize the barrel bonus dmg to counter their resistance.

Click here
- Watch as I use my severely underpowered flaming breath and no barrel to speed through this fight against a scarecrow significantly faster then when I pissed away turns and ap trying to toss my jug of nearly nonexistant bonus dmg around.

Click here
- Fighting a warchief with a barrel, purposely putting myself in as many hazardous situations as possible. Reason for doing this is to demonstrate my ability to manipulate the barrel around the field and how pointless it is to do so. Could have actually won this fight if I had tried, barrel or not, but end up taking 80 dmg from fail bonuses tongue

Click here
- Me in a straight fight with a warchief. Notice I'm STILL barely exceeding 20 damage per turn at lvl 26. Also take note of how much faster this fight moved in comparison to when I toyed around with the barrel.

Now you may think "Oh this is such BS why not just use blizz" - well, there's a simple answer :] Because I prefer the fire/water route! YET ALTHOUGH my blizz is underleveled (lvl 10), it does more dmg than my lvl 17 LmF, and even still more than my DS+LmF combo.

I'm all for blizz being the hard hitter of our skills - I DO use it, when the situation calls for it - But must I really be forced into using it as my only spell during solo play?

In all of these videos you'll see my barrel is only attacked ONE TIME and only because it was caught in an AoE - not directly attacked by an opponent. The barrel is good for little more than a dismal heal at the expense of 1 WP.

We're not supposed to be damage dealers, okay, but this is absurd. Magical healing pixies hit just as hard as us, yet we have the strength to throw enemies halfway across the map?

Oooookay.

Now discuss this post and call me out on my BS.

1 0
Reply
Reactions 24
Score : 1581

3/4 out of four isn't too bad for a fire/water (FW) panda! Good job, though. I still don't see how bad they are solo as a support class.

With the first two scarecrow fights, you do the same thing that I do, and most FW pandas should do: wittle down their HP from afar as much as you can while avoiding damage.

What I learned by being a FW panda is that you have to pick and choose your battles. Before I watched these videos, I would've never thought it was possible for a FW panda to win against a single enemy of the same level, much less a warchief (I believe that Warchief's still have fire resistance). Reason being, we use AoEs; I believe we're much more effective taking on five, level 5 enemies than one, level 25 enemy. How do you do in those types of fights, anyway?

I see how you proved repositioning a barrel doesn't help much, which is part of the reason why I don't think going pure Water is viable, same with Fire. You must use both elements together. And I rarely reposition barrels, anyway. I usually hope that I use up all the quarts so that I can summon it elsewhere.

I don't know; I've grow used to the barrel. I use it mainly to hide behind it and block LoS. With how FW Pandas are now, I don't think it's best to not use it.

I love that Karchamrak + Teleport combo; shows how much distance you can put between you and the enemy. I don't see how that could be useful in PvP or solo PvE, but I think it has potential in defensive group-play. *plots*

You've actually given me more faith in the FW Panda, suprisingly.

0 0
Reply
Score : 71

Water/Fire used to be a viable soloing build only because of how dizzy and fire spells interacted, now that that is no longer the case you just need to hide behind the barrel and spam water spells which now takes much longer and certain enemies are impossible to kill now.

0 0
Reply
Score : 320
Artifect|2012-02-19 20:03:20
3/4 out of four isn't too bad for a fire/water (FW) panda! Good job, though. I still don't see how bad they are solo as a support class.

With the first two scarecrow fights, you do the same thing that I do, and most FW pandas should do: wittle down their HP from afar as much as you can while avoiding damage.

What I learned by being a FW panda is that you have to pick and choose your battles. Before I watched these videos, I would've never thought it was possible for a FW panda to win against a single enemy of the same level, much less a warchief (I believe that Warchief's still have fire resistance). Reason being, we use AoEs; I believe we're much more effective taking on five, level 5 enemies than one, level 25 enemy. How do you do in those types of fights, anyway?

I see how you proved repositioning a barrel doesn't help much, which is part of the reason why I don't think going pure Water is viable, same with Fire. You must use both elements together. And I rarely reposition barrels, anyway. I usually hope that I use up all the quarts so that I can summon it elsewhere.

I don't know; I've grow used to the barrel. I use it mainly to hide behind it and block LoS. With how FW Pandas are now, I don't think it's best to not use it.

I love that Karchamrak + Teleport combo; shows how much distance you can put between you and the enemy. I don't see how that could be useful in PvP or solo PvE, but I think it has potential in defensive group-play. *plots*

You've actually given me more faith in the FW Panda, suprisingly.

Thank you :] However, not shown here were the 5, 6, 7+ recorded deaths I decided to toss before considering how much of a point it would've made if I had kept them. C'est la vie!

I agree wholeheartedly - we really must choose our battles.
So to demonstrate how wary we must be when tackling enemies I've done some more recording.
Shown below are comparisons between my pandawa (support), a feca (tank), and sram (damage).
Foot notes included as mere highlights - draw your own conclusions from the fights.

Note: There was a bug in effect during recording that looped victory music over and over.

Click here
- My pal Bella the feca takes on a lvl 66 group of enemies :] Take note of how hassle free it is for her to effectively utilize her AoE and its dmg, especially when coupled with her other abilities to boost her damage even higher.

Click here
- My attempt to utilize my barrel for AoE & bonus water damage. Notice a difference? Sure wish my fire spells were worth using until I was able to use my water AoEs. Not even my massive throwing ability is much use. This is a lvl 56 group.

Click here
- Bella goes toe to toe with a family of Gobbal. An easy victory, despite getting surrounded & there being gobbette heals.

Click here
- Me against multiple opponents! After dropping a barrel and attempting to focus the gobbette, I instead switch my focus to the gobblys. Figured if I killed all three before getting hit by the gobbette, I'd only have to take massive damage once. Watch how ridiculously prolonged the fight becomes as I'm unable to produce enough dmg without resorting to wakfu points to effectively pick them off effortlessly - despite them being 21 levels lower than me.

Click here
- The first sram you see here is lvl 20. The other is 23. At the beginning of the fight you will see my average dmg is half of theirs, but as the fight progresses you will find that ratio shifts to 1:3, and by the end all the way to 1:4. With that in mind, how much faster would you imagine the exp gain for a sram to be in comparison to a pandawa at this rate of growth?

Click here
- You mentioned Karchamrak + Teleport being used effectively. Made this one just for you. One thing I'd like to point out here - How many times could I have potentially buffed myself with merry by using my barrels AoE dmg in this video? If it were possible then merry would mean something to fire/water.

Bella had about 50 more hp than I do, but has gone full resist. She's lvl 25. Her specializations and class abilities only make her stronger. Srams five levels lower than me make short work of enemies that commonly push me to a fourth of my health, because their specializations and class abilities assist them as well.

Barrels profoundly hinder us in solo play.
If we can't hold our own solo, how much use are we in a group?
We don't even have the luxury of worthwhile, reliable heals OR buffs that truly benefit us to the core of our class.

I really do believe a lot of the problems could be fixed if we could ignite barrels, dizzy served a purpose, and our damage wasn't so god awfully pathetic due to poor spell cohesion. I'm very glad to know that I've instilled a bit of faith for the pandawa into you, but I'm hoping these demonstrations prove to the developers just how much faith it takes to even go into battle with this class.
1 0
Reply
Score : 4478

I don't really know a ton about Panda's, as I've not really met a whole lot.

But as I watched your first 4 videos, I was intrigued. I liked the overall map manipulation, range and attack variety. What a versatile class, though I can see the damage output wasn't huge. But couldn't you throw your teammate across the map? And the AoE on some of those barrel hitting techniques was awesome.

I don't know much about it in terms of balance, but I thought I should let you know that the class looks really fun. Too bad Panda's aren't my type of animal.

Lion, tiger, gorilla, or monkey hero. I would be ON IT.

0 0
Reply
Score : 320
Orphiant|2012-02-20 01:42:34
I don't really know a ton about Panda's, as I've not really met a whole lot.

But as I watched your first 4 videos, I was intrigued. I liked the overall map manipulation, range and attack variety. What a versatile class, though I can see the damage output wasn't huge. But couldn't you throw your teammate across the map? And the AoE on some of those barrel hitting techniques was awesome.

I don't know much about it in terms of balance, but I thought I should let you know that the class looks really fun. Too bad Panda's aren't my type of animal.

Lion, tiger, gorilla, or monkey hero. I would be ON IT.

Thanks for the input! Pandawa is a really fun class :]
I'm never bored playing it, but as you can see it's a dangerous job.
Making these videos today I've died twice as much as I've survived,
but because I'm so infatuated with this class I'm too stubborn to let
it stay like this.

Don't let the versatility and attack variety fool you. Grouping to fight higher level enemies has proven to me that my utility is my only saving grace. My role in group play has switched from utility/fighter to utility/coward, as I'm constantly forced to stay on the back lines if I want to use fire/water safely. If I move in to try and take advantage of an enemies dizzy state, the hp I dish out is always lower than that I'll receive. The fights pretty much end for me after tossing allies into battle unless I pick up my barrel and spam a certain notorious earth spell of ours, because what little damage I do with the fire/water trees pales in comparison to my allies otherwise. The sad part is I'd actually recommend no one to play this class as it is unless they can constantly group for exp, and even if you do group the pressure will be put onto you to use that one viable earth damage spell *coughBlizzcough*.

And yes, you could be crowd control and throw enemies left and right constantly but you'd probably hinder the group more than anything by doing so, unless your whole team could make good use of the range you put between them and the opponent. And with such an impressive arsenal of spells at their disposal, who would really want to just toss enemies around every turn every fight?

The AoE effects are pretty to look at but offer little more than that. A lot of my abilities are pointless because it'd be just as easy for me to spam spells from another element on an enemy than it would for me to take the time to set up attacks on the barrel, which initiates our AoEs and supposedly buffs our dmg. The barrel is a core part of the class and pandawa are supposed to benefit from it. The whole point of the thread is to show we hardly do - in fact, we're STILL hindered by it more than anything. It just doesn't feel rewarding to utilize such a fundamental part of our character.

Playing a pandawa in Dofus never felt this frustrating, they've never
felt this weak, and I'm sure their ancestors are just as troubled by
this evolution as I am.
0 0
Reply
Score : 1581

Again, great, great tactical gameplay. That's how FW pandas should be played. I saw great positioning, using the barrel to block LoS, knowing when it was best to attack from a safe distance, and knowing when it was time to use your hardest hitting skills. After all of that...wasn't that exciting--that tactical aspect of the FW panda? I was actually excited watching you play; I wasn't sure if you were going to take the damage at one moment, or teleport the next, or just run away and attack from afar. It was always different. You were utilizing map space. I could see you thinking. Complete opposite of the Feca. I saw the first Feca video, and I knew exactly how the second one was going to play out.

Btw, that +1 Range to Dairy Springer is sublime. FFFF. Must get +Range geaaaar.

I've read comments saying that the new Feca is OP. It really is, in comparison to how it was pre-patch. I didn't realize the extent of how much the devs beefed up this class. It's unreal, but at the same time, super boring. I don't know if I could just sit in one cell and spam that same one or two skills...every time, all the time. Where's the tactics in that? I'm predicting a slight nerf in the near future.

Karchamrak + Teleport, I agree, would buy us enough time to use some kind of specialty skill to buff ourselves up. I'm not sure what that would be exactly, but if the devs gave pandas the ability to buy ourselves a little time like that, I think it should be spent buffing up our damage or something.

Anyway, all of the complaints about FW pandas made it seem like the class was broken, like we couldn't kill things our level or something. FW pandas can manage. I think people were expecting this Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, acrobatic, nuke-things-up class, and when it didn't turn out that way, players got frustrated.

Slow leveling and drawn out battles seem more like legit complaints about this class. Doesn't bother me really; I don't care to level fast, and panda gameplay seems way more exciting than a Feca. Maybe were trading up fast leveling and quick battles for tactics and exciting gameplay? I dunno.

1 0
Reply
Score : 320
Artifect|2012-02-20 03:40:50


Slow leveling and drawn out battles seem more like legit complaints about this class. Doesn't bother me really; I don't care to level fast, and panda gameplay seems way more exciting than a Feca. Maybe were trading up fast leveling and quick battles for tactics and exciting gameplay? I dunno.

Thank you very much for taking the time to not only watch the videos in their entirety, but for sharing your opinion and offering constructive criticism as well. While pandawa is certainly much more exciting to watch than feca, both the feca and sram in the videos linked were at least capable of fulfilling their roles in the Wakfu universe without any glaring complications. They weren't hindered by their spells or abilities. Pandawa in comparison are, because of poor mechanics/spell cohesion, and our poor damage is the direct result of that. Barrels remain little more than a hazardous gimmick, and the amount of time that goes into preparing strategic attacks as a panda yields dismal rewards for the effort invested.

Every fight I've recorded could have been dumbed down to two actions with greater results - an attack with a bow and one cast of LmF. More disheartening still, these fights could have been dumbed down to one action as well - Blisskreig. More dmg, more range, less work - rendering both the fire and water branches completely pointless in comparison. The only thing they have in their favor is AoE dmg, but it's not even worth dishing out in comparison to the two tactics aforementioned.

Pandawa can certainly manage but hopefully this point was driven home - Battling as a FW panda amounts to little more than an uphill struggle. There are too many gaps in our design and too few bridges to fill them. Each fight results in either cheesing it in a corner to end with full hp, or risking our neck to play properly and end with 20% hp or (more often than not) death. Nuking things for massive dmg has never been my thing - I'm fine with not being a pure damage dealer as long as my class is mobile and versatile. But as it stands now..

Fighting opponents becomes a strenuous war of attrition, and it does not feel like anything close to being the "excellent fighter" detailed in our official description. It's the last thing I'd like to gripe about, but it's honestly the one thing holding this class back: damage. It's like we're not really fighters at all.

With that said, keep doing your thing and I'll try to produce a group play video asap. I'm still very curious to know how much willpower benefits this class, so I hope you're investing in it cause I'm not atm tongue
0 0
Reply
Score : 1180

Prinny great videos and play style. I have created a fire/water panda and after seeing ur vids I decided to give it more of ago since theres only a few more days to test out and my main is 65 with no point to really level it anymore.

I was gonna ask if you knew if willpower stat helps boost the chance of the barrel to protect you, but then I saw you said that you arent stating willpower but crit. So I guess I will start stating willpower and try to test it out effectively to see if it does indeed make the barrel more likely to protect you. If it does then willpower is a great stat for panda using water/fire.

I read somewhere that the more stacks of dizzy dont effect the states like they used to. So really I can just cast any water spell for dizzy just so i can get the fire effects. I am starting to see the many different tactical advantages that will be open to me and it is quite fun. Although the damage output is low thus making leveling slow. But it is getting better now that i have flaming barrel i can just dizzy and double scald everyturn while fighting a melee mob and guarantee the burn at their next turn. I am debating on whether to put some points in barrel hop and karchamrak later on after I get Milky and aggressive maxed. I am def putting 1 point into sherpa for the range and I have stated for +1range because being able to have taht increase in dairy springer and everything else is way more advantageous than 20% damage really. 1/5th extra of low damage is not gonna help. 1 more range and added mobility is game changing!

Ill let you know if I see willpower starting to boost the effectiveness of my barrel protects.

0 0
Reply
Score : 4296

I like the new Pandawa, but it could use a few tweaks.

The most successful and fun build I've played with so far has actually been pure fire, which almost entirely ignores the barrel. I guess it's a little unconventional, and perhaps not exactly optimal, but it works nicely as a support build. My plan is/was to first max Karchamrak, then Sherpa, then start working on either Ether.

In solo play, kite as much as possible, using your superior range (Light My Fire and Explosive Flask have solid range) and AoEs to whittle down opponents, with Karchamrak to toss them when you get backed into a corner. (Chuck 'em onto the barrier whenever possible, especially the earth and water ones.) You can abuse Dairy Springer in close combat against two opponents, constantly hopping back and forth between them.

In group play, make use of Karchamrak and Ether to maximize battlefield control. Throw allies into ideal positions: keep ranged characters at range, Srams/Iops in backstab position, tanky characters in ideal locking positions, and even get an Enu to point out where their mines are so that you can keep them powered up. Throw monsters exactly where they DON'T want to be: evasive ones should be thrown right back in the Iop's face; slow, melee monsters can be thrown way out of the fight until the team is ready to deal with them. If you have nothing better to do, just pick up and drop opponents to debuff their resistances. Use Ether to allow allies to move around without having to make those now-pesky dodge rolls, or to prevent line of sight blockage.

I do still use the barrel, but only as an occasional obstruction. A rather hilarious trick is to pick up an opponent and toss them into one of those divets in the combat border; then drop a barrel, pick it up, and throw it right in front of the monster, effectively locking them in. The barrel only loses one litre per hit, and currently monster AI is too stupid to make them attack the barrel anyway. This is the ideal way to temporarily dispose of an opponent until you're ready to deal with it. With maxed Karchamrak this costs only 7AP; or 6AP if you also have maxed Sherpa. All Pandas can do this, but I find that builds that focus on using the barrel (water and earth, and fire hybrids, which = most pandas) don't actually get into Karchamrak/Sherpa until late in the game, and don't want to just throw their barrel away.

This build works fine in 6AP, can make good use of 7AP, but really shines in 8AP. It has low damage compared to earth, and doesn't have water's huge AoEs, nor does it make any use of the cool dizzy/merry effects, or any of the bonus synergy that you get with dizzy effects. You give up a lot in those regards, but it's a good support build and a lot of fun to play.

0 0
Reply
Score : 1581

@Prinny: Totally get what your saying. While I do enjoy Pandawa gameplay myself, there is this weird, awkwardness I feel when I play, but can't put my finger on. You described what I think I was feeling. There are times where I thought, "Wow, this would be much easier if I could Blisskrieg over there." But it all comes down to what you find fun, I guess.

Looking forward to that dungeon video.

@Pantamime: Willpower/Crit is what I'm focusing as well. I hope things turn out great. o.o

@takewithfood: Good strategy with Karchamrak. I find that when I'm in dungeons, I do less damage and more repositioning when I can. The Enu mines thing is great; I'll have to do that when I have an Enu in my party next time.

I've been thinking about putting points into Ether. I think it would be great against an Air Sac or Earth Panda. But, I think they can still do damage, but just not teleport. I have to test this out more.

I often pin monsters into the corner like that. It's kind of unavoidable; with the way we kite, soon or later I'm going to find myself near an edge with on of those divets. It just seems like the logical thing to do. Prinny may find it cowardly, though. xD

Wow, the things we could do with 8AP. Double Dairy Springer?! More combooos.

0 0
Reply
Score : 4296

Yeah, 8AP is the way to go if possible. Same thing for water/fire, as it opens up a few extra combos, but 7AP seems to do as it's all you need for Bubble+Dairy/Explosive, and with maxed Barrel you can do Barrel+Bubble+LightMyFire as your opening move.

Some changes that I'd like to see:

1. Put a little range on Barrel - maybe even as little as 1-2 range at level 4 or 5, and 1-3 range at level 8 or 9. That would give us some flexibility in how we place our barrels without forcing us to level Karchamrak and Sherpa.

2. I wish there were a way to bring your barrel to you. Like, maybe casting Barrel Hop on the barrel would somehow teleport it into your hands. Again, this would help with making barrel placement more dynamic and make Barrel Hop a little more tempting.

3. Fix the AI so that monsters might take pot shots at the barrel if they can't reach a suitable target. It's only fair, and makes Aggressive Barrel a little more useful.

4. Maybe a slight increase to water damage when cast on the barrel. The reward should be a little bit higher for going through all that trouble.

5. Perhaps Bamboozle should also make targets Dizzy?

Pantamime|2012-02-20 14:23:24
I was gonna ask if you knew if willpower stat helps boost the chance of the barrel to protect you, but then I saw you said that you arent stating willpower but crit. So I guess I will start stating willpower and try to test it out effectively to see if it does indeed make the barrel more likely to protect you. If it does then willpower is a great stat for panda using water/fire.

Sorry to be slow to get to this - forgot to the first time! I don't have a definite answer for you, but no, Willpower shouldn't increase your chances to have the barrel protect you. Willpower increases your "chance to apply states", which means the little bonus effects on spells you cast on others. The %chance to be protected is not a state, so in theory it should not be affected. Really, it depends on how they coded it, but if they did it right, there is no synergy there as intended.

However, it should increase your chance to inflict Burning, Explosion, and Blindness off Flaming Burp, Explosion Flask, and Milking It, respectively. I can't be 100% sure about Explosion, honestly, but I think it counts as a state. I think it might also boost the chance of inflicting Quake with Lactic Acid, but again, I can't be sure.
0 0
Reply
Score : 320
Artifect|2012-02-20 17:43:07
I often pin monsters into the corner like that. It's kind of unavoidable; with the way we kite, soon or later I'm going to find myself near an edge with on of those divets. It just seems like the logical thing to do. Prinny may find it cowardly, though. xD

Wow, the things we could do with 8AP. Double Dairy Springer?! More combooos.

I'm all for tossing enemies into the border for the mp/ap/etc losses, but yes - it's my personal opinion trapping them or hiding yourself in the corner is cowardly. Honestly, we shouldn't have to. Not to mention it defeats the challenge, especially when the AI doesn't attack you nor the barrel. As a matter of fact, you'll see in the video of me against the warchief I actually leave a space in front of me to accommodate his gargantuan girth.

Admittedly however, I've done it in the past tongue guilty as charged!!
It certainly makes things a bit safer.
But imho it's basically an exploit.. and with the sudden wave of enemies
who simply don't give a damn about the barrel, it's basically free exp.
Instant gratification isn't really my thing. I enjoy working for my reward.

The barrel, merry, nor dizzy truly reward players.
Merry means absolutely nothing to me, and allies should get that buff when hit with aoe dmg.
Dizzy stacks mean jack and that makes my heart sad.

I've attacked the barrel this entire thread.
I'm going to give it a break now.

...As mentioned by takewithfood however, a way to bring the barrel back to us would be especially sweet. Yet another mechanic that seems so natural it should have already been implemented. It'd work with being able to ignite barrels ourselves especially well, I think.

Someone should really compile these threads for the suggestion forums during the downtime after open beta. There are too many great suggestions in the pandawa forums going to waste that seem like pretty easy fixes.

Pantamime|2012-02-20 14:23:24
Prinny great videos and play style. I have created a fire/water panda and after seeing ur vids I decided to give it more of ago since theres only a few more days to test out and my main is 65 with no point to really level it anymore.

:] Glad to be of service! The more pandawa the merrier!
Thanks for the compliments, and I'm excited to hear what developments you make since we both went the +1 range route.

Unfortunately, it's doubtful I'll invest in range this early at release. Tbh the hp would have helped a lot more than the range would have at these early stages but the potential it holds for pandawa is too evident to leave ignored. Though I can't wholeheartedly recommend getting it via stat points - I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for it on gear at higher levels.

Block would be an interesting stat to experiment with as well.
It'd prolly go really good with milky instinct maxed.
0 0
Reply
Score : 4296

Dizzy and Merry are both pretty awesome. The Critical Failure chance on Dizzy is almost the equivalent of a -%final damage penalty (just less reliable), and is more apparent in PvP (where opponents tend to cast multiple spells per round) than it is in PvE. It's especially annoying suffering a CF when you have a build that relies on spell combos (eg: water --> fire Panda spells) or effects that must be applied every turn (eg: earth Enus in 'zerker mode).

Merry is all about the +crits. It's a shame that it only stacks to 10, but +1-10 crits is pretty ***y, and the bonus to damage is final. That's pretty awesome. And I certainly won't turn down some free MP in what amounts to a melee build.

What I don't like about Merry is that you go into Worn Out no matter what after 10 drinks, even if you still have the barrel in hand. I wish that wasn't the case. I'm okay with it applying if you somehow screw up and don't stay Merry every round, but getting it automatically ever 10 turns is what offsets the benefit of getting Merry.

I've thought about suggesting that opponents should spend a turn in the Worn Out state after they've peen pushed over 10 stacks of Dizzy, but that feels too broken to me. Dizzy stacks up to 4x (or more, with enough AP) more quickly than Merry, and even just two Pandas working together could keep you Worn Out at least every other round.

0 0
Reply
Score : 320
takewithfood|2012-02-20 21:42:27
Dizzy and Merry are both pretty awesome. The Critical Failure chance on Dizzy is almost the equivalent of a -%final damage penalty (just less reliable), and is more apparent in PvP (where opponents tend to cast multiple spells per round) than it is in PvE. It's especially annoying suffering a CF when you have a build that relies on spell combos (eg: water --> fire Panda spells) or effects that must be applied every turn (eg: earth Enus in 'zerker mode).

Merry is all about the +crits. It's a shame that it only stacks to 10, but +1-10 crits is pretty ***y, and the bonus to damage is final. That's pretty awesome. And I certainly won't turn down some free MP in what amounts to a melee build.

I'm pretty certain it's subjective and differs from player to player,
but I personally don't agree that they're that great.

Not to say the information you provided is inaccurate or flawed or anything,
but let me ask you.. How many times did you catch me utilizing merry in my
videos? It's pretty great for players who use it, maybe, but not for me.

My gripe with dizzy/merry is even though they offer some advantages,
they strikes me as pretty situational and it has rarely made that much of a difference
for me in pve - which was the setting I've been demonstrating in. Can't speak
for pvp.

Your splash damage also can't put the Merry state on you, which would be awesome.

Dizzy/merry just sort of leave me asking - in the grand scheme of things
did they truly make a difference?

Again, speaking personally,
nope.

The only reason I look for dizzy is so I know who to DS+LmF next.
But the theory is nice.
0 0
Reply
Score : 4296

It's absolutely subjective - I was just offering a counterpoint.

And I imagine that you'd make use of Merry if you were pure earth, and more use of Dizzy if you were pure water. In a water/fire hybrid, I imagine that Dizzy is mostly for the purpose of enabling the fire bonus effects, so you won't see a huge benefit from it.

0 0
Reply
Score : 4478

If only you could combine elements of your fire and water panda to make a steam panda. They had a system like that in Tales of Symphonia. Like, lets say, once you reach level 100, you can unlock another branch of spells labeled "Steam", instead of the alternate next branch of Fire and Water spells, as long as you have at least 1 level 50 skill in both the fire and water element.

That would be an awesome way to roll into the 101-200 range. Like, you could pick fire or water if you wanted to, but you could also have the ability to combine elements.

Wind + Earth = Sand

Wind + Fire = Lightning

Wind + Water = Typhoon

Earth + Fire = Molten

Earth + Water = Swamp

Fire + Water = Steam

That would be awesome!

P.S. - I'm going to mess around with a Panda tomorrow to get a better understanding of where you guys are coming from. Maybe just get it to like 15 or something.

0 0
Reply
Score : 320
takewithfood|2012-02-20 22:08:24
It's absolutely subjective - I was just offering a counterpoint.

And I imagine that you'd make use of Merry if you were pure earth, and more use of Dizzy if you were pure water. In a water/fire hybrid, I imagine that Dizzy is mostly for the purpose of enabling the fire bonus effects, so you won't see a huge benefit from it.

See, and that's what I'm attempting to explain -
although all pandawa can make use of dizzy/merry
the only build that utilizes both is earth and only earth.

Three out of four basic builds make rare and situational use of merry.
Two of the four builds can't even make proper use of one of either
states in any way that truly impacts battles, making all the benefits you could
potentially receive from them practically nonexistent. If you factor in the
potential bonus damage for fire from dizzy - which earth nor water utilizes -
this means no build makes full use of either states.

Earth makes use of both merry and dizzy.
Pure water makes full use of dizzy and no/rare use of merry.
Fire/water makes moderate use of dizzy and no/rare use of merry.
Pure fire uses dizzy less than f/w and no/rare use of merry.

The dizzy and merry states are so dismal because even if they're handy,
they're not integrated properly to enable good (read "worthwhile") utilization
of the states.

They're just kind of pointless. Especially for pure fire builds I assume, considering..

takewithfood|2012-02-20 16:30:09
It has low damage compared to earth, and doesn't have water's huge AoEs, nor does it make any use of the cool dizzy/merry effects, or any of the bonus synergy that you get with dizzy effects.

So that just kind of leads me to wonder how much experience you have with the states personally that would lead you to proclaim they're awesome when the most successful and fun build you've made makes less use of them than any other. Because you should logically be irritated more than any of us f/w hybrids here that one of the core concepts of pandawa's design sits in the shadow of poor class mechanics/cohesion, forever never used tongue

Every other class in the game can make full use of every ability, every specialization, at their disposal. When their states and skills come into play they are only made better by it. Sure, we get a decent buff but what good is a buff you never use? The debuff is okay but what good is a debuff that - at best - can only offer the player improved damage for an element they may never use, or the off chance that you may get lucky and avoid one (or rarely, two) hits an entire fight?

Our exclusive states, as well as our signature ability (the barrel), simply don't reward us.
But the theory is nice, amirite?
1 0
Reply
Score : 1581
WATER

  • Pros: Dizzy, AoEs, specialties, healing, Triple Whammy
  • Cons: tied to location of barrel, can't fully utilize Merry, subpar single-target damage

FIRE

  • Pros: states, strong AoEs, mobility (Dairy Springer), specialties, Triple Whammy
  • Cons: must stack Dizzy to apply states, can't fully utilize Merry/Dizzy, subpar single-target damage, somewhat tied to location of barrel (to stack Dizzy on multiple enemies)

EARTH

  • Pros: High damage, Blisskrieg, Merry/Dizzy
  • Cons: no specialties, no states, no healing, no wide-range AoEs, Worn Out

I have a strong feeling that the devs purposely made it so that each tree cannot fully utilize Merry and Dizzy. If each tree could, it would be unbalanced.

_____________________________________

Merry gives Earth major bonuses--only because they're limited to one role: damage dealers. They trade up utility for damage, at the risk of Worn Out state. Their high base damage makes it so that Merry and Dizzy aren't even gamebreaking advantages.

F/W trades up damage for utility and AoE. A Water panda being able to get damage + MP bonuses, on top of their AoEs, utility, crit failures, and healing? We would be pressured to attack every turn just to avoid Worn Out state. What if I wanted to throw something, knock back something with Triple Whammy, or transport? It might not matter much in a 8AP build, but that's further down the line. That would be torture with a 6AP build.

The only other class that mirrors the Earth pandas mechanic is the Earth Enu: going in zerker state limits them to Earth abilities, and they must land an attack per turn to maintain that state. Their specialties are limited to that +MP skill and mines, neither of which are helpful in zerker state. The trade-off is similar: utility for high damage.

Fire enus are somewhat like Fire pandas: they have to use mines to get that extra damage/range, while we pandas have to stack dizzy in order to apply states. Sure, fire enus don't rely on water skills, but mines appear randomly, and they have spend turns transforming and repositioning mines to effectively use them.
0 0
Reply
Score : 4296

Argh. I had a really long reply, but the forum ate it on preview. Should have copied.. Going to try again.

PrinnyJeans|2012-02-21 13:00:51

See, and that's what I'm attempting to explain -
although all pandawa can make use of dizzy/merry
the only build that utilizes both is earth and only earth.

Three out of four basic builds make rare and situational use of merry.
Two of the four builds can't even make proper use of one of either
states in any way that truly impacts battles, making all the benefits you could
potentially receive from them practically nonexistent. If you factor in the
potential bonus damage for fire from dizzy - which earth nor water utilizes -
this means no build makes full use of either states.

Earth makes use of both merry and dizzy.
Pure water makes full use of dizzy and no/rare use of merry.
Fire/water makes moderate use of dizzy and no/rare use of merry.
Pure fire uses dizzy less than f/w and no/rare use of merry.

The dizzy and merry states are so dismal because even if they're handy,
they're not integrated properly to enable good (read "worthwhile") utilization
of the states.

They're just kind of pointless.

I can't help but feel that you're going out of your way to be obtuse here. Many, many spells have proc effects, such as stun or burning or explosion or sleep or what-have-you, that are not available to people who do not use those spells. Take the Eniripsa for example: only fire spells have Marks - does that mean that marks are useless because only builds that incorporate fire get to use them? Only water spells heal - does that make them useless? Only the air spells have nifty proc effects - does that make them useless?

PrinnyJeans|2012-02-21 13:00:51
takewithfood|2012-02-20 16:30:09
It has low damage compared to earth, and doesn't have water's huge AoEs, nor does it make any use of the cool dizzy/merry effects, or any of the bonus synergy that you get with dizzy effects.

So that just kind of leads me to wonder how much experience you have with the states personally that would lead you to proclaim they're awesome when the most successful and fun build you've made makes less use of them than any other. Because you should logically be irritated more than any of us f/w hybrids here that one of the core concepts of pandawa's design sits in the shadow of poor class mechanics/cohesion, forever never used tongue

I hope I'm misinterpreting this because it sounds like a really flimsy ad hominem attack on my argument. If you paid attention to my post you might have picked up on the implication that fire was my favourite build of all the builds I've tried. At no point did I suggest that it was the only build I've tried and that I'm actually arguing out of complete ignorance.

I've been through several test builds. Harvey Wallbanger is my pure water build; my second favourite after fire. Saotome Genma was my earth build (since deleted to make room for more). Molotov C0cktease was my water/fire hybrid (also deleted). And Flaming Moe is my fire build. I also had a sober earth Panda, but I abandoned that silly idea so early on that I don't even recall the name I used (possibly Chinese Farmer). tongue

And I have played several iterations of each; I'm on my third Flaming Moe now, I think. I didn't always get them very high in levels (unless you count a couple XP scroll exploits to test higher level play), but I certainly have toyed around with them enough to know the ins and outs.

The reason that pure/sober fire happens to be my favourite build has nothing to do with shying away from the Dizzy/Merry states, and almost everything to do with the fact that I tend to gravitate toward support builds. (The Eni is typically my favourite class to play.. just not this version!) I like the Karchamrak/Sherpa mechanic and chose to focus on those abilities over the barrel.

My water build, however, makes heavy use of the dizzy mechanic, and I like that, too. My main complaint has nothing to do with Dizzy, and more to do with what a late-bloomer the build turned out to be. Mobility was an issue in early and even mid levels, until I started to get some serious points into Karchamrak/Sherpa and Barrelhop. (I tried out Bamboozle once, but it doesn't work well in groups.)

PrinnyJeans|2012-02-21 13:00:51
Every other class in the game can make full use of every ability, every specialization, at their disposal.

That's complete BS and you know it, as covered above.

PrinnyJeans|2012-02-21 13:00:51
Sure, we get a decent buff but what good is a buff you never use? The debuff is okay but what good is a debuff that - at best - can only offer the player improved damage for an element they may never use, or the off chance that you may get lucky and avoid one (or rarely, two) hits an entire fight?

Our exclusive states, as well as our signature ability (the barrel), simply don't reward us.

If you agree that the Dizzy/Merry states are decent/good, maybe the problem is that you just haven't found a satisfactory way to apply them? Because I think I've made pretty good use of them, though I've already made suggestions for mechanics that would make the barrel easier to move around. If your complaint is that you never use them, maybe you're using the wrong strategy.

Otherwise, I think we're in agree to disagree territory here.
0 0
Reply
Respond to this thread