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Balance Pandawa's Karcham and Chamrak

By Hyreas#8715 - MEMBER - July 30, 2022, 02:55:26

Ankama needs to balance Pandawa’s positioning.

I have seen that Pandawa is mandatory in high level dungeons, UB and a lot of pvp. You can see them in a lot of teams. Nowadays people don't use other tanks like Sacrieur, Feca or Fogger because Pandawa is a very competitive and easiest class to train an exploit every place and lvl. Pandawa just needs a lot of HP, resistance and 9 MP, they don't need AP, damages, critical hits, dodge or will.

I recommend apply a soft nerf, for example:

1) -1 MP and -resistance to Pandawa when it casts Karcham: because it’s natural lost mobility and resistance when you lift anything.

2) -1 MP additional per move when Pandawa walks carrying someone: because it’s difficult to walk when you are carrying extra weight.

3) +Some resistance to Pandawa when it casts Chamrak: because now you are free of that extra weight.

4) Something radical could be change the cost of Karcham/Chamrak: WP instead AP, and unlimited use per turn.

5) Apply a state on objectives that have been lifted up: 2 or 3 turns of cooldown to be able to be lifted up again.


In this way Pandawas must think very well when and with whom to use Karcham/Chamrak. Of course Ankama can create new Passive to reduce this balance, but it could contain some penalties, for example: -resistance, +AP spell cost, WP cost, -WP, reduce actions per turn, +cooldown, etc.

Pandawa is currently the heart of pvm and pvp teams at all levels. What I'm seeing is that Pandawa shouldn't be a great tank, escapist, and positioner (and a regular healer) at the same time, you need to apply penalties to give other tanks and positioner a chance in teams. For example, Sacrieur has a lot of penalties to be able to be a tank and a positioner at the same time.


What do you think?

39 -30
Reactions 29
Score : 91

I support this topic. panda has too much good positioning and doesn't have any penalties, why hasn't it been balanced yet?

15 -11
Score : 6105

Mostly because the positioning is basically the only think pandawa has going for it.
It's one of the 2 classes who don't have Damage dealer as a role so their damage isn't great and their tanking skills are good but not as good as some other classes.
They are theoretically also suposed to be a healer and can lower resistance, but I have seen osamodas that heal more then pandas.

1 -9
Score : 10532

" the only think pandawa has going for it. "
Oh yea, and the high resistance, mobility, variety within its decks are just... a collective hallucination? Let's not forget Pandawa can keep a 100 resistance buff ongoing for 5 turns not to mention the other ways the Barrel provides defense!

1 -1
Score : 2325

I think I'd much rather a buff to other classes to stand a chance against panda when it comes to team selection. 
 

6 -1
Score : 10532

I agree. Fogger for instance have decent positioning with the push and pull, but I always imagine how good would be if you push/pull something over the rails, they go all the way from one end from the rails to another.

2 0
Score : 316

 

Hyreas#8715
 the same time, you need to apply penalties to give other tanks and positioner a chance in a teams.

Crab pot mentality right there. You could have suggested alternatives to make other positioners more powerful instead of nerfing panda.
8 -4
Score : 1017

The mobility of Panda cannot be penalised even if positioning ability is reconsidered because they are intimately tied for the Panda.

While Osamodas push enemies by one cell or swap with summon using Relay, Pandas may instead use Dairy springer if the enemy is stabilised to escape lock.

While Eliotrope uses portals to draw in enemies or push them, the Panda needs to move into line of sight of the barrel (unless you have mass charm with quite some range)

While Masqueraider use Inspiring Dance to gain MP while maintaining teleporting mobility, the Panda uses Ether and gets stabilised

I want to spend my time thinking about how to position my team, not time thinking about what I can't do with my AP given all the cast limits and cooldowns and penalties when I carry. That should be what high level play encourage.

How do you separate Panda from Masqueraiders anymore? Both are melee positioners with the capability to tank and heal. Do people even use collisions to heal or remove MP? Pandas can't revive like masqueraider, they can't armour like them, nor give critical, range and resistance

0 -1
Score : 6105

I'd say that the power pandas have that masquaraiders don't is positioning without line of sight, as pandas can yeet people over walls with karchamrak, slightly better tanking skills, poisons and scalding

0 -4
Score : 1964

in a big scale it's a result of game design, that devs decided to follow
nowaday you either follow meta, in which panda is a Karchamrak slave, or don't get rewarded much
i don't like that healer can just heal or feca/osa can only buff etc., their damage output is insignificant and outside of group fights they are handicapped (unless you are rich enough to have multiple builds for said characters)
 

0 -1
Score : 14216

I enjoy playing the class but I agree that Pandawa should be less mandatory.

I don't think that's something a few changes here and there will solve tbh. Their strong positioning and mobility will most likely be changed during their rework, they will surely get a set of contradictory passives (better positioning in exchange for mobility and viceversa) and increased WP cost on their spells to make their actions more strategic and add, in the words of the own devs during the xelor rework, "passives that will have a more meaningful impact on how you play this class" 

Arachive#9273|2022-07-31 10:31:33
The mobility of Panda cannot be penalised even if positioning ability is reconsidered because they are intimately tied for the Panda.



I don't think Pandas are safe from receiving a mobility nerf. Fecas used to be a mandatory class before their rework, it was rare to see teams without them, they were the best tank/support for years, the rework came and now we see way less of them compared to before. Foggers were incredibly strong too and they got a massive rework which changed the way you played the class entirely.

The same might happen to Pandawas.
3 -1
Score : 60

When they get changes, I am expecting chamrak to be limit to once per turn, with an increase with passive. More push/pull on his spells.

 

cody5#2705|2022-08-01 05:11:42
How about 1 per turn, except for barrels which are unlimited?

The barrel/merry/sober/wornout mechanic feels very slow and clunky. I am hoping some changes are made to these mechanics as well.
1 -1
Score : 6105

How about 1 per turn, except for barrels which are unlimited?

1 -2
Score : 5

Pandawa is Jack of all trades and master of none in pretty much all aspects BUT positioning. They are literally designed to be map manipulators. Don't get mad that the Map Manipulating class is better at manipulating the map compared to other classes.

Pandas damage output is nowhere near other classes. Their healing capabilities are handy but also very limited. The only other thing they can boast about is tanking and compared to other tanking classes they fall short as they require 2 turns to get the right state and have enough Dizzy stacks to consume for shields.

Pandas mobility has already been nerfed quite a bit with barrelhops multi-turn cooldown and from what I can see they're one of the only classes that haven't been fisted with the sh*tty give and take passives (i,e: here's 300 AOE damage but we'll take 1MP from you because this makes the game fun).

Honestly in my opinion Pandawa is probably one of the best examples of a balanced class at this point. They excel in what they were designed to do and can help pick up the slack in other aspects, but in no means are they outshining other classes in their other roles. Their WP regen mechanics are balanced and fair and reward smart play styles over just giving free WP points for the sake of it.

Long story short; don't fix what isn't broken. Pandawa is a good class that doesn't need to be changed because other tanks can't position like it. Panda's have always been a positioning class first and tank second.

2 -2
Score : 1017

I'd also like to add more to the above player that most panda passives already have built-in reduction in % damage inflicted penalty to specialise in healing and tanking and reversed for poisoned chalice, even without the 15-20 total passive rebalance, while master of merriment and bottomless barrel are among the few ways an area mastery panda can heal himself beyond milk cloud. Bubble Trouble already weirdly doesn't heal the Panda when casted on barrel, and healing burp can't be self casted.

Just because booster users have a specific triple-geared character setup that favours a Panda who carries a DD and tanking a boss doesn't mean all Pandas are played that way.

Single character Pandas who team up with guildsmates still need to be able to farm and level by themselves, so their builds are often hybrid, or area mastery based, so they can heal and damage as necessary depending on their team.

This is the same issue with the constant Cog nerfs that limits the capabilities of Cog to prevent exploits while ignoring that Cog on the whole is very weak for the Xelor himself to use.

There are very few classes in Wakfu which I often feel I want to take all of the elemental spells, active spells and passives, but is pained that I am unable to. This is a GOOD thing. It means that all spells and passives are demanding their attention in my utility kit in spite of my build. Among all the classes, Sadida and Panda do this well, but for majority of the revamped classes, there are various spells or passives hardly any one picks because their usage conditions are so niche that the class is not impacted if it didn't exist.

4 -1
Score : 4189

I'd have to disagree. Pandawa is probably the most balanced class in the game currently. It's precisely this fact that makes pandawa so versatile and desired to run in dungeons. That is not a bad thing.

Other classes have their individual flaws, and they should be fixed rather than the pandawa broken to make them seem less...broken.

2 -5
Score : 1512

Pandawa is fine how it is and I have to agree that it's probably the most balanced class in the game. 

Nerfing it's positioning is like nerfing Eniripsas healing because it outheals an Ecaflip. You didn't choose the Ecaflip to be a healer and you're silly if you did. Likewise you don't choose a Panda to be your tank because it's the best tank in the game. You choose it because it's a positioner with tanking capabilities.  Take away Pandawas positioning and flexibility and you're left with a class that can't really do anything that literally ANY other class in the game can do better.

Arachive#9273|2022-08-02 14:28:03

There are very few classes in Wakfu which I often feel I want to take all of the elemental spells, active spells and passives, but is pained that I am unable to. This is a GOOD thing. It means that all spells and passives are demanding their attention in my utility kit in spite of my build. Among all the classes, Sadida and Panda do this well, but for majority of the revamped classes, there are various spells or passives hardly any one picks because their usage conditions are so niche that the class is not impacted if it didn't exist.

100% agree with this. Pandawa is literally the only class that I have played where I look at the passives and all elemental branches and think "there's so much to choose from this is a genuinely difficult decision to make". It's also why my Panda is a Tri-Build because each branch really does bring something useful to the table.

Leave Pandawa alone.
4 -3
Score : 638

This.

Gone are the days where people can actually feel what you said in this sentence, "there's so much to choose from this is a genuinely difficult decision to make".

Thanks to players kept on calling nerfs and developer's decision to endorse that with furthering the restrictions with penalties, we now had class builds so linear that Wakfu doesn't feel the same as before.

Before, weird build could work although not optimal, but now with passives with penalties and with certain dungeon designs demanding certain playstyle had made what Wakfu is now, for the good & the bad.

It may be appealing to newcomers that doesn't know Wakfu's past, but certainly a big NO for old time players. And we all know Wakfu is too punishing for new players and too grindy for working/paying consumers. Game's a hobby to relax, not endless repetition workload & depressing RNG. So yeah you get the gist of it.

0 -3
Score : 6105

 

Shenbatu#2826|2022-08-02 06:00:36
I'd have to disagree. Pandawa is probably the most balanced class in the game currently. It's precisely this fact that makes pandawa so versatile and desired to run in dungeons. That is not a bad thing.

Other classes have their individual flaws, and they should be fixed rather than the pandawa broken to make them seem less...broken.

Well here I would just like to point out the difference in class balance and build balance.
Yes, pandawa, just like ecaflip is very well internally balanced, all their spells are good alowing for great build diversity.

That however is not the same as external balance, as being a class that literally every group wants on their team because it's so useful is basically a textbook case of imbalance, just like enutrof used to be before the resist break powercreep.

Anyway my point is that while yes pandawa is a bit too strong as a positioner, compared to other classes, I hope they don't change their internal balance too much in the eventual passive rework.
0 -2
Score : 180

Honestly this does seem to fit into what the Wakfu Team has been doing lately with their reworks.
 

  • Foggernaut- penalized for using stasis too frequently.
  • Eliotropes- penalized for using portals to teleport too far away or having portals on the field for too long.
  • Osamodas- penalized for having more than one Osamoda in a fight with the                              "summoning sickness" debuff.
  • Feca- penalized with passives that limit the Feca to one main role in a fight instead of being a tank, buffer, and damager.
  • Xelor- penalized for using dial to move around so now dial movement requires Wakfu points. Not to mention their original "delayed push" which players complained about until they removed it.
  • Masqueraider- penalized by having to wear a mask in public all the time instead of being their true self. (Seriously I think they had the rework that players dream of.)

Therefore I wouldn't be surprised if "Karcham " and "Chamrak " got that same "love and attention" from the Wakfu Team. laugh
7 -5
Score : 17

all the panda players came to cry instead of admitting that their class is too unbalanced. when Ankama nerfed other positioners, panda players did not come to the defense, and now they are afraid to draw attention to themselves lol 

12 -9
Score : 132

People didn't come to defend when other positioners were nerfed? What the hell are you smoking? Because I want some too...
Ffs, there's more than one thread with people complaining about the state of Xelor's positioning role - of the lack of thereof - after the rework.
Come on, go check 'em. There's even this weird guy obsessed with Xelor that once in a while brings the topic back again.

5 -1
Score : 1512

 

cody5#2705|2022-08-02 21:06:56
 Anyway my point is that while yes pandawa is a bit too strong as a positioner, compared to other classes, I hope they don't change their internal balance too much in the eventual passive rework.



Because Pandawas main gimmick is positioner. That's why they were created.
Brakpowe#8933|2022-08-02 23:59:44
all the panda players came to cry instead of admitting that their class is too unbalanced. when Ankama nerfed other positioners, panda players did not come to the defense, and now they are afraid to draw attention to themselves lol 



Take away Pandawas positioning and tell us what you're left with. Because you sure as sh*t aren't a damage dealer. You're either a slow start tank or you're a second rate healer outclassed by almost all other classes. Don't get pissy because your Elio isn't the best positioner in the game when you have other things you can fall back on. Without positioning Pandawas really don't have anything to fall back on that other classes can't do better. The late metagame has made Pandas relevant again. Back in the Grou days Pandawa used to be a staple for almost every UB for it's positioning skills (the Moowolf train was my favourite). Then the damage structure changed and everyone just blitzed through making them irrelevant

The playerbase has gotten so whiney about how their favourite can't do everything that they forget the whole point of the game was to make groups of different classes with different people. This isn't a single player game and your class isn't supposed to do everything. Just group with a Panda and let them fill the roles you aren't capable of fulfilling because ironically Pandawas aren't a class you can solo things with, THEY are the ones who need to be carried through the content.
1 -3
Score : 4032

Agreed, and may I just add that the old dungeons were crafted with the balance of the old classes and their capabilities in mind. If you straight up nerf Pandas and positioners in general, as has happened with Feca, Xelor and Eliotrope, the dungeons need to scale back in difficulty to compensate for the weakening of the team's overall capabilities. The 1.76 dungeon revamp has dialed back on the total number of rooms, and the requirement of an arms race for competitive dungeon rewards, which has scaled back the time pressure it takes to complete the dungeon, but not the complexity of most dungeon themselves.

Positioning spells need to be cheap and versatile. Damage spells are assessed on their damage/AP ratio and you have 15 to choose from, but positioning spells are a fixed investment in a set amount of AP for one action's effect that also takes up a spell slot. Coward Mask is viable because you can adjust AP cost to the effect you desire, while Paradox is not because you need a central target and entities you don't want to move are caught up in the spell as well. Kamchakrak is viable because you can move the entity across to the other side of yourself OR on the same side, but Boot and Gear each only deal with one side and across sides respectively.

{Having said that having Chakrak throwing scale AP cost to the distance thrown, like Coward Mask, seems like a reasonable enough nerf without additional penalty to per-turn limits. Carrying an ally is already nerfed}

Booster users in general play with very few other people so their characters don't get into each other's way. When was the last time they had to play with multiple people across older dungeons, all the way from Blackspore and Lenald, Bulbrute and Srambad, Magmotel and Vertox, Kannilooni and Mama Gerbean, not revisiting them with fully geared ALS sets or even high stasis using top level sets, but with gear they picked up along the way as someone leveling up? They have long moved past the point where positioning was relevant for those dungeons when they can steamroll the boss, but this is not the case for most normal players

2 -2
Score : 1

panda years are unbalanced, as shown by recent changes when people ABUSING sacrier + PANDA . panda's positioning is too unrestricted. Just because a panda can't be a good healer or play other roles doesn't mean the positioning has to stay that strong. this means loosening positioning and improving other roles. at least that's fair. panda is too well positioned, it cannot be replaced anywhere in the game, which is very bad when one class has such huge advantages.

3 -3
Score : -1138

Panda is panda, they like bamboos and throwing stuff.
nerf xelor
nerf feca
nerf osamodas
nerf rogue
nerf masque
nerf elio
nerf berserker
nerf everything who recently went to new WP system.

buff cra
buff hupper
ouginaks are kinda rare, something is wrong
foggers are also dissapeared

oh, people just follow high end ladder teams composition (copy/paste), they don't try to make their own. Just follow guides what currently goes well. If current ladder boards would be filled with 6x sadidas, most of wakfu player base would be sadidas.

If you compare panda, feca and sacrier, - panda would be the worst of them all. Panda is good when played in team, but it's bad solo (nothing special at all).

1 -4
Score : 6105

Here's my suggestion

1. Make throwing stuff more then 1 cell away cost WP
2. Just make them drop stuff they are carying at the end of the turn, if it's not a barrel?
3. Buff panda's healing and support
4. Stronger passives
5. Give them some indirect damage support, they already have flaming, scalded and poisons

 

Granthese#6501|2022-08-03 08:48:02
" the only think pandawa has going for it. "
Oh yea, and the high resistance, mobility, variety within its decks are just... a collective hallucination? Let's not forget Pandawa can keep a 100 resistance buff ongoing for 5 turns not to mention the other ways the Barrel provides defense!

Sure, a 100 reisitance buff from turns 3-8 that also prevents you from using your merry cycle.
While feca can use aegis every turn to give anyone 100 resist for 2 WP 1 AP, and fogger can use ironclad to get 100 resist for 2 turns for also just 2 AP 1 WP
0 -1
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