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In light of new events...

By ArkOfFate April 01, 2012, 21:09:55

So.. I log on my air sac once in awhile to just farm and collect cheevs, but you dont need to know that.

What I did was buy some items that did + spell level, figured I'd maybe get some damage back...

I am crying rusty tears of FUUUU-rust-eration.

When you start to realize that many of the air sacs primary spells... are BALLS in terms of damage... and don't see damage gains for as many as 3-5+ levels for JUST ONE damage.

Lets see.. Lv 100

Reject -- 36 3 AP 1-2 range. (Critical 54)
Fist -- 34 2 ap 1 mp 1-3 range (critical 58) (adds dodge 45 norm 70 crit)
Assault - 32 3 ap 1-3 range (critical 46) (same dodge table as above)
MS -- 21 1 ap 1 mp 1-5 range (35 critical) same dodge table as above.
LS -- 65 5 ap 1 wp 1 mp 3 range requires landing point

Mathematically speaking.....

Get 3+ mp and spam MS 6x and you do 126 damage.
LS single target is 65..... if you're *LUCKY* enough to get two, that's 130.. SPREAD OUT DAMAGE.

I'd rather do 126 to a SINGLE target and make sure it's dead. Than 65 to two different targets.

Oh wait it gets better. Looking at an

air sram wow, impressive damage and buffs/debuffs. Their final spell crits for 144 and normal does 85 A lot of their spells do 10-20 more damage than ours.
air cra wow even their spells do a bit more than ours and they can use SA THREE times if they so liked. For an air sac they'd have to get 10 AP to do LS twice. That's two AP from skill points, thats two ap from gear.

For all purposes and intents Osa and Saddia have suck air final spells *BUT* they have damn pets, sacs do not.

You want to talk other elements? Panda's blisskreig 100 something normal 180 CRIT. and how much does it cost? THE SAME, the requirements? Carry their barrel. Might recover MP that it costed. Does way more than LS.

Air sacs need a buff. Or cost nerf, these skills cost too damn much for too little of what they do. If air sacs are not meant to be a damage dealer and more of a MM, give our spells more range, allow the range to be modified, cut the costs down for the love of all things holy. As air sacs sit, they are utterly USELESS. I've been playing my Enu for a few days now and I'm finding more and more people who main'd an air sac have quit their air sacs and started something else.

Ultimately going air sac means you need to put 330 worth of points into getting 22% crit... as we all know it crit is not a guarantee damage and other classes can put out the kind of damage without having to dump 66 worth of levels of points into crit to achieve. While we had to put our points into crit to even get there, they went full agi.

330 divided by 4 = 82.5

2 pts of agi = 1% so yeah... we lose 82% worth of damage for a chance to deal equal to what they normally do, and by that time? It's already outclassed. They've stacked agi, lets pretend you're an air cra who gets passive crit anyways. Lets pretend its a 10 round battle... clearly the air cra is going to do so much greater damage than you.

A panda will out damage you at lv 66
A sram will out damage you at 66.
A Enutrof will outdamage you at 66
A iop will outdamage you at 66.

You want to talk about Angrr and how we have to lose GREATER than the amount BP gives us to even do decent damage?

Max angr gives 40% bonus.... that's half of it back at almost near death hp. at 15% hp moribund gives the other 40%...... we have to be at 1% hp to even get a total of 120% bonus...... and this is just for ONE turn and next were screwed.

Were supposed to be strong at low hp, were supposed to be ferocious. Now at low hp, its basically we are equal. The label of berserker is garbage.

Earth is a tank, we are not a tank.
Fire is a short range nuker, we are not a short range nuker.

We mess up the battlefield, we zip around, we do explosive damage like a hurricane..... now what are we? An Enu's fart in the wind with our skills that cost equal to things that can do 50-60 damage and have better debuffs/additions than adding dodge.

I propose you remove MP cost from all our skills and lower the AP cost, make it so reject, assault and fist can have modifiable range. If you're going to leave LS as it is, then lower the cost to 3 ap 1 wp 1 mp.

Or, I don't know, give us a complete revision and buff the damned air branch. Every single skill we have is WEAK and MM/movement skills are not exclusive to us. Plenty of other classes can knock players or enemies out of cells or shove them around, even move closer quicker without a gimmicky spell. This whole elemental branch of sacs is just freakin MESSED and useless.

ENU'S. FART. IN. THE. WIND.

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Reactions 21
Score : 1358

i agree with this, we are damage dealers, sacs in general are the berserker class. even if air is supposed to do less damage than fire its supposed to do more damage than earth. earth is the tane its supposed to be a meat shield, fire is the damage dealer, and i think they should give us a boost in damage only because, like you said, we have to be half dead to even compare to other damage classes, whats the point of being a fire sac, we have to get beaten to death to do the same damage that a full health iop can do? and air, poor air, they dont have anything, no damage, no defense, all they do is move around which wont do *** to a boss, air is not useless in a group T.T some guilds wont even accept air sacs any more i hear

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Score : 115

Funny. Air sacs need to do less than fire, but more than earth. How about you look at another tree than air and see how much change fire needs to be reworked for this to be accomplished?

An increase to the % we get while we become lower in health wouldn't be a bad idea, but if thats how you like it, moribund is there for a reason.

I dont mind the new light speed. It could use some work. Maybe a rebuff to 70 damage wouldnt be a bad idea. Perhaps a decrease to 4AP 1MP and a damage increase to 70, 1 use per turn wouldn't be a bad idea either. But to say its useless, I have to greatly disagree.

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Score : 1153

If you are talking Single target you should focus on getting 1 AP and 1 MP, go with MS -> Assault -> 3x MS. Factoring in MS proc, and backstab bonus for the 3x MS that's 146.9 base damage at level 100 for both skills.

If we used an Air Iop as a reflection, with 8 AP 3 MP, he'd do 4x Jabs, 1x Gutting Gust, and an Uppercut, for 191 Damage and costs him 8ap, 2mp, and a WP. Granted he gets more damage from his specialties, but he has nowhere near the movement that an Air Sac gets or field manipulation

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Score : 1120
Tekknorabble|2012-04-02 00:47:43
If you are talking Single target you should focus on getting 1 AP and 1 MP, go with MS -> Assault -> 3x MS. Factoring in MS proc, and backstab bonus for the 3x MS that's 146.9 base damage at level 100 for both skills.

If we used an Air Iop as a reflection, with 8 AP 3 MP, he'd do 4x Jabs, 1x Gutting Gust, and an Uppercut, for 191 Damage and costs him 8ap, 2mp, and a WP. Granted he gets more damage from his specialties, but he has nowhere near the movement that an Air Sac gets or field manipulation
did u know there is something called a bow?
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Score : 1407

I forgot to mention...

To get roughly 25 angr you need to be at around 70%-65% health. This makes blood pact utterly useless for yourself given its supposed to give you 30% more hp... and that hp goes to waste if you so much want to use LS at the start of battles for mobility.. and piss poor damage.

Air sacs are so broken. The whole branch needs to be looked at and revamped. I can barely solo mobs properly unless they're 20-30 whilist I'm 50... i can't even fight two chafers at once..... whom are WEAK against air. I can solo a single, but 90% of my health goes to the ***per. I watch other classes my level plow through them with ease...

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Score : 2039

Air Sacrier are supposed to be maneuverable, not heavy damage-dealers. I don't know who told you that air is a damage-dealing element for Sacrier, but it's not.

For every single class, air has been the maneuverable element. You can even look at equipment, since air equipment generally has dodge added to it (ignoring medium levels, since Ankama threw in a bunch of filler equipment). There's no justification for adding more damage to something that's supposed to be doing something other than damage. Fire is an element for a reason.

The problem that I saw with Light Speed's damage was two things. The first was the critical hit damage. That was ridiculous for that element. They fixed that in a way that could have been solved by lowering the critical hit ratio but this way does solve the issue.

The other problem that I saw is a bit overlooked. You stated it exists in your monolog at the beginning but didn't capitalize on it. Air Sacrier gain massive amounts of dodge from their spells. It's insane amounts of dodge, to be perfectly honest.

That was my main problem with Light Speed, it was a no-skill spell that people used in PvP or PvE after using Motion Sickness if they were locked. It ruined tactics for the game (generally) in higher level PvP by just letting them get up very close and using it.

If Light Speed is buffed again, then the dodge bonus will likely be nerfed or removed. If you want a "berserker" class, then fine, go play earth or fire; Air isn't for you. And if people don't stop complaining about the damage, I can almost guarantee that the air Sacrier will be nerfed in ways that completely destroy all the utility and give it gimped damage.

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Score : 589

Lightspeed WAS overpowered.

100 base damage, if you hit 3 targets that was a total 300 base damage, with no team-hitting effects, dodge buff, and movement utility. That's a little bit ridiculous.

It was so good, that I even saw Sacriers start from level 1 and use ONLY lightspeed until Tsu's Palace, til they were about level 80. Then they probably quit because they put all their eggs in 1 basket.

With LS how good it was, you did not need any other spells.

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Score : 509

OK, so air Sacs aren't supposed to be putting out heavy damage. What exactly are they supposed to be doing with that mobility that Earth/Fire Sacs can't? Those other Sacs will still have access to the mobility provided by the air tree, and won't care about the damage loss from not having further leveled those spells since they'll still have greater damage with the fire tree or far greater durability with the earth tree.

People aren't confined to one element tree, and all the utility of the air tree is made available just by leveling the tree enough to gain access to the spells. Why should people invest further in air at that point if not to gain damage? Increased dodge? Is dodge really that important when, as an earth/fire Sac, you want to be in melee range anyway and will still have access to all the map manipulation of the support skills? This is doubly true when, at later levels, the big bads tend to be resistant/immune to relocation effects.

Either way, the point is that if LS needed a nerf it certainly didn't need a 35% damage reduction. Air Sac's weren't one of the noticable problem cases, that they should have gotten so large a nerf was ridiculous. It was a fixed range, conditional spell that had a high AP cost, and still cost an MP and WP. It should be extremely potent. Bliss is an excellent spell for comparison, and apparently is considered to be perfectly fine. Why is Bliss fine when LS wasn't?

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Score : 800
Atriri|2012-04-02 18:37:26
OK, so air Sacs aren't supposed to be putting out heavy damage. What exactly are they supposed to be doing with that mobility that Earth/Fire Sacs can't? Those other Sacs will still have access to the mobility provided by the air tree, and won't care about the damage loss from not having further leveled those spells since they'll still have greater damage with the fire tree or far greater durability with the earth tree.

People aren't confined to one element tree, and all the utility of the air tree is made available just by leveling the tree enough to gain access to the spells. Why should people invest further in air at that point if not to gain damage? Increased dodge? Is dodge really that important when, as an earth/fire Sac, you want to be in melee range anyway and will still have access to all the map manipulation of the support skills? This is doubly true when, at later levels, the big bads tend to be resistant/immune to relocation effects.

Either way, the point is that if LS needed a nerf it certainly didn't need a 35% damage reduction. Air Sac's weren't one of the noticable problem cases, that they should have gotten so large a nerf was ridiculous. It was a fixed range, conditional spell that had a high AP cost, and still cost an MP and WP. It should be extremely potent. Bliss is an excellent spell for comparison, and apparently is considered to be perfectly fine. Why is Bliss fine when LS wasn't?


As a fire sac, if i want to use a skill to set up a good set, i sacrifice damage to do it. I can either hit hard, or move things. An air sac can 'hit moderate' and move things.

An air sac manipulates the field as their primary job, and do damage while doing it. Other sacs manipulate the field but lose out on damage.
Also i need to stress that earth and fire are not going to be behind the enemy to get off their good damaging skills due to their good damage having massive AP costs and using assault as a non air sac is silly for your damage combo.
Air sacs can always get behind someone, and still have a good portion of their ap/mp left for attacking. Dont discount the damage bonus from behind when remembering air sac damage.

Basically, air is for the people who want to be the dedicated group field manipulator. By specing air they get to do that job while also doing damage.

Air also lets you solo many different kinds of mobs. As a fire sac ranged mobs, i lose damage dealing with/countering their range/tendancy to kite, so i pretty much am always stuck fighting melee mobs or things that i can go 1 vs 1 and lock.
Air sacs are also the only sac that is not really dependent on hitpoints, since you do not depend on coagulation stacks for your defense, you are free to not worry about having as many hitpoints as other sacs.

Air is the most versatile sac, it can fight well vs all kinds of mobs, and it does not have to chose between damage and support while grouping, since it damages while supports, and supports while damaging.

All through beta i played air sacs, and i love air sacs, the only reason im a fire sac now is because i like the idea behind fire sacs, and it would be boring to level yet another air sac.

Its easiest to be an air sac, since you can basically just fight stuff with out having to seek out very specific kinds of mobs or group compositions to attack at your most optimal. There are certainly targets where are 'best' for air sacs, but the number of things that are 'okay' for air sacs is vast, where earth and fire are more or less stuck dealing with their 'optimal' targets, and those can sometimes dry up.

So, benefits of air:

1: Can fight ranged mobs just as easily as melee mobs
2: Can do damage while positioning things in a group, making you the best 'set up' class in the game
3: Does not need sanguine armor, freeing up a whole extra support skill.
4: Does not really need angrrr either, though its still a good choice, allowing for even more versatile and free build options.
5: Has the best gear selections
6: Every extra MP or AP you get really opens up new options, fire and earth tend to work more in breakpoints, with set attack chains, air is much more fluid and capable of adapting to a situation/drains
7: Does not need as many hitpoints as fire or earth, opening up more spec/gear options

All in all air is the moderate damage, easy scaling, versatile, spec, which is what the air element is supposed to be.
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Score : 1120
Bringer|2012-04-02 19:10:08
Atriri|2012-04-02 18:37:26
OK, so air Sacs aren't supposed to be putting out heavy damage. What exactly are they supposed to be doing with that mobility that Earth/Fire Sacs can't? Those other Sacs will still have access to the mobility provided by the air tree, and won't care about the damage loss from not having further leveled those spells since they'll still have greater damage with the fire tree or far greater durability with the earth tree.

People aren't confined to one element tree, and all the utility of the air tree is made available just by leveling the tree enough to gain access to the spells. Why should people invest further in air at that point if not to gain damage? Increased dodge? Is dodge really that important when, as an earth/fire Sac, you want to be in melee range anyway and will still have access to all the map manipulation of the support skills? This is doubly true when, at later levels, the big bads tend to be resistant/immune to relocation effects.

Either way, the point is that if LS needed a nerf it certainly didn't need a 35% damage reduction. Air Sac's weren't one of the noticable problem cases, that they should have gotten so large a nerf was ridiculous. It was a fixed range, conditional spell that had a high AP cost, and still cost an MP and WP. It should be extremely potent. Bliss is an excellent spell for comparison, and apparently is considered to be perfectly fine. Why is Bliss fine when LS wasn't?


As a fire sac, if i want to use a skill to set up a good set, i sacrifice damage to do it. I can either hit hard, or move things. An air sac can 'hit moderate' and move things.

An air sac manipulates the field as their primary job, and do damage while doing it. Other sacs manipulate the field but lose out on damage.
Also i need to stress that earth and fire are not going to be behind the enemy to get off their good damaging skills due to their good damage having massive AP costs and using assault as a non air sac is silly for your damage combo.
Air sacs can always get behind someone, and still have a good portion of their ap/mp left for attacking. Dont discount the damage bonus from behind when remembering air sac damage.

Basically, air is for the people who want to be the dedicated group field manipulator. By specing air they get to do that job while also doing damage.

Air also lets you solo many different kinds of mobs. As a fire sac ranged mobs, i lose damage dealing with/countering their range/tendancy to kite, so i pretty much am always stuck fighting melee mobs or things that i can go 1 vs 1 and lock.
Air sacs are also the only sac that is not really dependent on hitpoints, since you do not depend on coagulation stacks for your defense, you are free to not worry about having as many hitpoints as other sacs.

Air is the most versatile sac, it can fight well vs all kinds of mobs, and it does not have to chose between damage and support while grouping, since it damages while supports, and supports while damaging.

All through beta i played air sacs, and i love air sacs, the only reason im a fire sac now is because i like the idea behind fire sacs, and it would be boring to level yet another air sac.

Its easiest to be an air sac, since you can basically just fight stuff with out having to seek out very specific kinds of mobs or group compositions to attack at your most optimal. There are certainly targets where are 'best' for air sacs, but the number of things that are 'okay' for air sacs is vast, where earth and fire are more or less stuck dealing with their 'optimal' targets, and those can sometimes dry up.

So, benefits of air:

1: Can fight ranged mobs just as easily as melee mobs
2: Can do damage while positioning things in a group, making you the best 'set up' class in the game
3: Does not need sanguine armor, freeing up a whole extra support skill.
4: Does not really need angrrr either, though its still a good choice, allowing for even more versatile and free build options.
5: Has the best gear selections
6: Every extra MP or AP you get really opens up new options, fire and earth tend to work more in breakpoints, with set attack chains, air is much more fluid and capable of adapting to a situation/drains
7: Does not need as many hitpoints as fire or earth, opening up more spec/gear options

All in all air is the moderate damage, easy scaling, versatile, spec, which is what the air element is supposed to be.
Real problem is, lightspeed got nerfed too much. I shouldnt be hitting 250DMG max per mob with all my buffs on and full crobak set ( Maxed Moribond and Maxed Angrr at 1hp). 250 DMG is weak sauce with lv83 Lightspeed. DMG MATTERS OK? Just take pandas Blitz for example, i was crying when I saw he was lv60 doing twice the DMG i did while I was 20 lvs higher than him doing 150 with lightspeed.
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Score : 800

air sacs have always been based around motion sickness and backstab damage, it was like that with the old version of motion sickness, and it actually works even better in my opinion with the new version of motion sickness now.

I just dont get all these air sacs suddenly thinking that light speed is supposed to be the primary damage output out the spec.

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Score : 249

I honestly think this guy is a giant troll. For anyone reading this misinformation I would like to clear up a few things.

MS x6 is a terrible terrible combo. I have posted a thread about base damage at level 100 skills from 6ap-10ap in another thread.
Click here
If you look 126 for 6 MS is roughly the same damage ouput for 3MS and 1 assault. The difference here is 2MP you have to fill in. Which, depending on the items/stats you choose, can mean even less damage when stat air % is filled in or an item slot doesn't need that mp for 21 damage.
As well, 6ap is not ideal in any way for a late game air sac. Going 9ap and 6mp is ideal and possible with late game items. This gives you 3 spaces to move around to get a full combo off while keeping a high base damage output. As someone pointed out a full Iop combo at 8AP(wouldn't change for 9ap) for 191 damage. At 9ap Air sac highest damage output is 151-195 without including backstab bonus. And once you play an Air Sac with 5-6MP it is almost impossible(matter of fact you have a 95% chance to majority of the time) to not get to max range for assault every time. After the first round you will build up max dodge chance even on the new content stuff with ridiculously high lock compared to the prior stuff.

As for the multiple angrr information this guy has spewed. He claims a 40% damage max angrr damage. When in reality at 100 angrr you get around 67%(if I remember correctly its .67% damage for 1 angrr). Secondly he stated that you need 60-70% health to have 25 angrr. Which is off. You max out on angrr at 10% health left. 25% of 90 is 22.5 so you need to have 77.5% of max health to use a tier 5 skill. Theoretically it may seem bad, but logically it is good. Either then light speed; punishment and smasher is better used with lower health. Punshment you need less % health then the enemy to deal a large chunk more damage. Not only do you get a large chunk more damage but the less health you have you also get extra % damage. So you go from a 80-120 base damage to 89-140 with only an angrr increase. So logically waiting for lower health to use the two higher damage skills has better pay off.

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Score : 1120
Khloo|2012-04-03 01:47:47
I honestly think this guy is a giant troll. For anyone reading this misinformation I would like to clear up a few things.

MS x6 is a terrible terrible combo. I have posted a thread about base damage at level 100 skills from 6ap-10ap in another thread.
Click here
If you look 126 for 6 MS is roughly the same damage ouput for 3MS and 1 assault. The difference here is 2MP you have to fill in. Which, depending on the items/stats you choose, can mean even less damage when stat air % is filled in or an item slot doesn't need that mp for 21 damage.
As well, 6ap is not ideal in any way for a late game air sac. Going 9ap and 6mp is ideal and possible with late game items. This gives you 3 spaces to move around to get a full combo off while keeping a high base damage output. As someone pointed out a full Iop combo at 8AP(wouldn't change for 9ap) for 191 damage. At 9ap Air sac highest damage output is 151-195 without including backstab bonus. And once you play an Air Sac with 5-6MP it is almost impossible(matter of fact you have a 95% chance to majority of the time) to not get to max range for assault every time. After the first round you will build up max dodge chance even on the new content stuff with ridiculously high lock compared to the prior stuff.

As for the multiple angrr information this guy has spewed. He claims a 40% damage max angrr damage. When in reality at 100 angrr you get around 67%(if I remember correctly its .67% damage for 1 angrr). Secondly he stated that you need 60-70% health to have 25 angrr. Which is off. You max out on angrr at 10% health left. 25% of 90 is 22.5 so you need to have 77.5% of max health to use a tier 5 skill. Theoretically it may seem bad, but logically it is good. Either then light speed; punishment and smasher is better used with lower health. Punshment you need less % health then the enemy to deal a large chunk more damage. Not only do you get a large chunk more damage but the less health you have you also get extra % damage. So you go from a 80-120 base damage to 89-140 with only an angrr increase. So logically waiting for lower health to use the two higher damage skills has better pay off.
I dont even know why people LV punisher, it's weak and unreliable. Burning blood does 123 Base (with burn effect) and Punisher does 120 with the requirement of having lower % hp. Only time where punisher shines is a crit but, why would i be dumb enough to waste WP on punisher if i could do Sanguine+ Burning blood combo?

I'm a lv85 air sac doing 250 Damage with all my buffs ( Roughly 500%+) Damage with 1hp. It isnt that great if u ask me.
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Score : 249

Punishment is hit or miss. If you crit, yuo win, if you don't you lose. But until someone puts out the math I wouldn't say one is better then the other. Was just using punishment in my post for an example of why the 25angrr req isn't too bad. I think someone posted something about the damage % needs to be over 500% on average for speccing into crit being worth it, but that was prior to the new gear so might be changed?

As for 250 damage at 300%? I don't know what to say about that. I am level 67 on my air sac with 8ap and doing 200-250 damage at full health. Around 300 once I am almost dead and this is with only 150% air damage with fail equips and messed up stats :\

Don't get me wrong I am not trying to say this damage is awesome and comparable to an Air Iop. Because its not. It's mediocre at best. But that is how it is, it is average damage. Base damage wise its on par with everything else, its the support skills that lack for Air sacs. We can pick up 110% more damage when we are at 10% health, okay thats cool Iops get 100% more damage no matter their health and can get that 100% after their first turn if they have a decent team, or maybe 2-3 turns worst case scenario. Srams get bonus % damage from shadowy cloak, bonus damage from behind, bonus from stabber, all which can stack faster then our angrr. But this is a whole nother topic then the lightspeed

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Score : 509
Bringer|2012-04-02 19:10:08
Atriri|2012-04-02 18:37:26
OK, so air Sacs aren't supposed to be putting out heavy damage. What exactly are they supposed to be doing with that mobility that Earth/Fire Sacs can't? Those other Sacs will still have access to the mobility provided by the air tree, and won't care about the damage loss from not having further leveled those spells since they'll still have greater damage with the fire tree or far greater durability with the earth tree.

People aren't confined to one element tree, and all the utility of the air tree is made available just by leveling the tree enough to gain access to the spells. Why should people invest further in air at that point if not to gain damage? Increased dodge? Is dodge really that important when, as an earth/fire Sac, you want to be in melee range anyway and will still have access to all the map manipulation of the support skills? This is doubly true when, at later levels, the big bads tend to be resistant/immune to relocation effects.

Either way, the point is that if LS needed a nerf it certainly didn't need a 35% damage reduction. Air Sac's weren't one of the noticable problem cases, that they should have gotten so large a nerf was ridiculous. It was a fixed range, conditional spell that had a high AP cost, and still cost an MP and WP. It should be extremely potent. Bliss is an excellent spell for comparison, and apparently is considered to be perfectly fine. Why is Bliss fine when LS wasn't?

So, benefits of air:

1: Can fight ranged mobs just as easily as melee mobsWith attraction any Sac can fight ranged mobs as easily as melee mobs, and because it has no associated AP cost when fully leveled, and the other elements are less reliant on MP to do their damage, they can close distance without a corresponding loss of damage quite easily.
2: Can do damage while positioning things in a group, making you the best 'set up' class in the gameThis is arguable, as Panda's still have extremely strong mobility and map manipulation abilities in Barrelhop/Karchamrak and add a sizable debuff to their target while doing so. And again, all Sac's have access to Attraction, which is the strongest MM tool that Sac's have. Additionally, earth Sacs aren't included in a group for their amazing damage. If an earth Sac gives up a little damage by using an underleveled air skill they've really lost very little. I agree you have a point here, but that becomes further complicated when you add into the equation that the highest priority targets in high end PvE tend to be stablized, completely negating the air Sac's one advantage.
3: Does not need sanguine armor, freeing up a whole extra support skill.This argument drives me crazy. Air Sacs aren't being freed up from Sanguine Armor. They simply don't have it as a reasonable option. Since when is loosing an option a benefit? If an earth Sac really preferred another support spell over Sanguine Armor they are free to take it. Them choosing not to do so is a strong indication that Sanguine Armor is well worth taking over that other option.
4: Does not really need angrrr either, though its still a good choice, allowing for even more versatile and free build options.None of the element tree's really require angrr. It's mostly desirable for the damage increase. And since damage is the only thing an air Sac provides their team that an earth Sac doesn't they would seem to be more strongly motivated to lvl it.
5: Has the best gear selectionsThat's transitory and will presumably disappear in the near future.
6: Every extra MP or AP you get really opens up new options, fire and earth tend to work more in breakpoints, with set attack chains, air is much more fluid and capable of adapting to a situation/drainsWith regards to AP this is simply untrue. People plan their build out quite specifically. No one gets an extra AP without having an intended use for it. If an earth Sac gets 9AP so they can Smasher/Rocky Foot or Colonnades/Crackrock and then lose an AP they can easily switch to an 8 AP combo just as well as an air Sac can. With regards to MP air Sacs are actually even more vulnerable to MP loss given a much higher MP requirement for their spells.
7: Does not need as many hitpoints as fire or earth, opening up more spec/gear optionsNot exactly. They're required to build far more damage to contribute appreciably to their team which limits them just as much as earth needing to build survivability and fire needing to build a hybrid of the two.
All in all air is the moderate damage, easy scaling, versatile, spec, which is what the air element is supposed to be.
Responses in bold.

I'm not arguing that LS should have been left how it was. It still provides a decent AoE and has nice utility in the added mobility. But the nerf was far too sizable. LS was the air Sac's only worthwhile damage option against a stabilized target. It needs to be decent for air Sac's to remain desirable in late game PvE, which is where a lot of this game's content is going to end up being. Putting the damage back up to 75-80 would be perfectly. I don't get why it was ever considered a good idea to immediately jump to a 35% reduction in damage.
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Score : 800
Atriri|2012-04-03 19:41:36
Bringer|2012-04-02 19:10:08


1: Can fight ranged mobs just as easily as melee mobsWith attraction any Sac can fight ranged mobs as easily as melee mobs, and because it has no associated AP cost when fully leveled, and the other elements are less reliant on MP to do their damage, they can close distance without a corresponding loss of damage quite easily.
Air sacs are free to level attraction first if they want to whereas other sacs will be in their 40s before fighting things that are ranged even becomes an option. But even maxed, attraction still costs 2 MP and does no damage. An air sac doesnt need to be next to their enemy to damage them, so they are much freer in this regard. Even in a horrible situation an air sac can still get some damage out with motion sickness. Air sacs just have more options when it comes to fighting things that kite you, or kiting things.

2: Can do damage while positioning things in a group, making you the best 'set up' class in the gameThis is arguable, as Panda's still have extremely strong mobility and map manipulation abilities in Barrelhop/Karchamrak and add a sizable debuff to their target while doing so. And again, all Sac's have access to Attraction, which is the strongest MM tool that Sac's have. Additionally, earth Sacs aren't included in a group for their amazing damage. If an earth Sac gives up a little damage by using an underleveled air skill they've really lost very little. I agree you have a point here, but that becomes further complicated when you add into the equation that the highest priority targets in high end PvE tend to be stablized, completely negating the air Sac's one advantage.
Well, vs a big boss the air sacs job shifts into standing behind it and motion sicknessing from safety, and being on standby with a sacrifice or transposition to help team members out. This isnt the most amazing damage output but you can do it with out taking any risks, leaving you fresh to respond to situations if they arise.

3: Does not need sanguine armor, freeing up a whole extra support skill.This argument drives me crazy. Air Sacs aren't being freed up from Sanguine Armor. They simply don't have it as a reasonable option. Since when is loosing an option a benefit? If an earth Sac really preferred another support spell over Sanguine Armor they are free to take it. Them choosing not to do so is a strong indication that Sanguine Armor is well worth
taking over that other option.

Fire sacs absolutely need sanguine armor. Its as integral to their build as the old version of motion sickness was to air sacs, there is no choice there. You can say earth gets a choice, but its not really much of one. Being able to go from ~10% health shield up to a 30% health shield is just an amazing thing to be able to do. Since air sacs dont take as much damage as other kinds of sacs, they are 'freed' from the need of taking sanguine armor. This is part of their mobility. Air sacs are the only sac who can afford to take both attraction and transposition in their build, making them truly versatile, since there is not a single support skill that an air sac 'needs' to make it work. Earth needs tattooed blood and blood pact, fire needs sanguine armor, angrrr, and blood pact, just to function properly. Air needs nothing to function properly, this gives it the ability to take all the field control and support skills.

4: Does not really need angrrr either, though its still a good choice, allowing for even more versatile and free build options.None of the element tree's really require angrr. It's mostly desirable for the damage increase. And since damage is the only thing an air Sac provides their team that an earth Sac doesn't they would seem to be more strongly motivated to lvl it.
Fire does, since it depends on coagulation stacks from sanguine armor to survive, and 30 more angrrr from maxing this skill gives it 6 more stacks. Since air sacs can kite around they also avoid taking damage, and they dont require the lock bonus either, so they get less milage out of angrrr. Not that im saying air shouldn't take this, as its a good skill anyway, but they are free to take it later on at their leisure rather than earlier.


5: Has the best gear selectionsThat's transitory and will presumably disappear in the near future.
Hopefully

6: Every extra MP or AP you get really opens up new options, fire and earth tend to work more in breakpoints, with set attack chains, air is much more fluid and capable of adapting to a situation/drainsWith regards to AP this is simply untrue. People plan their build out quite specifically. No one gets an extra AP without having an intended use for it. If an earth Sac gets 9AP so they can Smasher/Rocky Foot or Colonnades/Crackrock and then lose an AP they can easily switch to an 8 AP combo just as well as an air Sac can. With regards to MP air Sacs are actually even more vulnerable to MP loss given a much higher MP requirement for their spells.
This point was more about gear progression and the timing that you get your extra aps and mps from gear and what you do in the mean time. Fire for example doesnt need 7 ap, it may as well just wait until gets 6, other than to protect from ap drain. earth has an easier time with ap as it can keep scaling up its attack chain, but due to motion sickness each additional point of either kind on an air sac can be seen as a solid resource that it may be able to exploit over changing conditions and circumstance.

7: Does not need as many hitpoints as fire or earth, opening up more spec/gear optionsNot exactly. They're required to build far more damage to contribute appreciably to their team which limits them just as much as earth needing to build survivability and fire needing to build a hybrid of the two.
Both fire and earth use their hitpoints not only as their buffer before death, but also as the basis for what their main defensive capability, coagulation stacks, do. Airs main defensive ability is kiting. It therefore only needs hitpoints for what everyone else needs them for. Further when you realize that air heavily favors backstab damage, and the backstab bonuses you can obtain from sets, combined with the elemental mastery damage bonus and damage bonus from gear, means that even if an air sac adopted a style which maximized angrrr bonuses, they would just be getting a smaller percent of their overall damage from the angrrr bonus than other sacs, so air sacs need hitpoints least of all sacs.

Italics happy 
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Score : 21

This internecine back and forth is missing the point, and is really petty. No Sacrier should be interested in bringing down another element branch unless it is breaking the game. Everyone who mains an air sac now finds it unplayable--it has gone from top-tier but not OP to sack-of-potatoes. It's cool that those of you who like playing sacks-of-potatoes have no problem playing an air sac, but you're really just hurting the entire class by insisting that air is still viable.

Before the nerf:

PetSheep|2012-03-25 11:44:13
. . .
It's not that Earth and Air are too powerful, it's that Fire is too under powered for it's trade-off.
. . .

This.
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Score : 3009

Fire is for damage and building rage.
Air is for mobility so your always where you need to be to get the most out of your short life span.
Earth is to slow your HP lose once you have build up to alot of rage.

The Sacr is just one of them classes thats suppose to use all three trees. not just one.
I know the game isnt really designed for that, but thats how the sacr is designed.

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Score : 800
-colorado-|2012-04-03 22:42:26
by insisting that air is still viable.


Have you tried stacking backstab damage stuff? Thats how air sacs used to work.
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