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Trying to give back the Ap support role using mechanisms. (Passive Suggestion)

By xXDarkTurboXx#9686 - MEMBER - May 06, 2022, 09:03:43

One of the things that I really miss is the role of giving Ap. In the previous version, the Xelor could consistently give Ap to allies. The main reason why I liked this is because the Xelor could be useful in all levels or stages of the game, maybe this was an exclusive feature that he had. This is something  that I really miss, I know that now the class has a damage role, much more stronger than before, whoever, I don't think that this is the only thing that should define this class, damage is cool, but variety of gameplay, if balanced, is always more fun than just having one way of playing it. That's what I want to try to achieve here, I know that I will not be able to achieve this in a first try, but I would really appreciate your help to make this happen.

So how do we start? first I believe that we should look in how the actual Xelor is constructed, having this in mind will help us to do something that is closer to the dev's vision about the class. 

Those are the things I can notice in how passives and elemental spells are build in the currently character:
-Most passives have a specific function, it's effects are made to improve this specific function, even if it means limiting the gameplay with drawbacks.
-Each function has to be extremely straight to what it will do, as example I can give the spells branch, each one of them are specific to one thing, even if you do have some variations like suspension, clock, and sandglass. 
-If a passive is giving you a strong effect, it may have a drawback to not let the character be good in everything.
-Wp is extremely important in this class, I would say even more than Ap, so probably we should have a way to interact with this in those changes.

Having those points in mind, I will start the suggestion, please give me your feedback, no matter how bad you think this is, say all problems you see and how do you think it could be done, or not, I would be happy just by having your attention. 

So, how will this passive change your gameplay?

Basically, while the old Xelor was able to buff allies by using his basic spells, I want to focus in the new sinistro, Cog, and devotion, and if possible make a interaction with Desynchronization too.
Your gameplay will be basically based in positioning your mechs to buff your team Ap, some spells will empower your mech's capacity of doing this instead of damaging opponents. take a look:

New Passive: TimeManager

Description:
With this passive, the Xelor give up a huge part of his damaging pottention to focus on helping his allies adquire more Action Points. In Xelor's turn, nobody will be late.

Effects: You can summon two more cog and sinistro.(If we want things to be even more specif, we could limit summoning by mechanisms to create a different playstyle inside this playstyke. So a cog player would be more agressive, by using Air spells to proc cogs everytime and create  debuff on their opponents, while a sinistro player would be a more patient and safe one that would focus on helping their allies.)

Sinistro: Instead of damaging opponents, allies that start their turn in 3 cells range of the sinistro gains one Ap. If an allie is near a sinistro when the Xelor start his turn, the allie will receive 2 Ap. Enemies that end their turn  with 3 cells around the sinistro will lose one Ap, if they are near it when the Xelor's turn starts, they will lose 2 Ap.

Cog: Instead of damaging enemies, cogs will give 1 Ap to every allie around it when activated, and take 1 from every enemy hit by it.

Devotion: Devotion's cost is decreased by two, it no longer have a cd, and gives only 1 Ap, If casted on a xelor's mechanism it doubles the mechanism effects. You can only target one non-mechanism entity per turn. if the Xelor casts it on himself, it gives full Ap value, whoever, the next time theft is used, it will consume double Wp while giving you the regular Ap, this effect stays until Xelor uses time theft.

Desynchronization: It no longer damages opponents, neither takes or gives Ap, instead, when someone is hit by it every interaction with Ap that the Xelor's mechanisms causes on them will be doubled, this effect will perdure until Xelor's next turn(Ends after sinistro's effect  is activated).

Xelor's elemental spells that costs 5 or more Ap will have their cost increased by 3 points.


Explanation:  The sinistro and Cog are based on previous devotion, before, you would need to coordenate with your team their positions with your dial. I want to make something based with this too, so you will actually have to think to make it work. I beleive that this was the problem that the devs saw in the previous version, it was free, I hope this makes things more balanced and fun for this playstyle that I always enjoyed. Devotion and desynch are also made to improve this, since you no longer will do damage, you will be the BEST ap suppot in the game, all of this will be based on your team capacity to positioning. Imade some limitations with the intention of making someone full dedicate themselves to this playstyle, I also wanted to make people able to counter the sinistros, so Xelor can't use them to take your Ap by free, if a Sinistro takes Ap from you it was your fault.

I also want to embrace the patiante gameplay, with the excpetion of Cogs and devotion, everything requires you to wait until it happens, desync, sinistros, even devotion on mechanism, all of them depends on one specif event that may happens sometime, this because I don't want they to be free when done, your allies, and you, have to coordenate whell all of your positions to extract the full potention of this playstyle.

What do you think? Should Xelor have his Ap giver playstyle back?  If yes how woud you do it?

 

6 0
Reactions 28
Score : 12583

It's hard for me to refrain from commenting on this topic. It's a mixture of different feelings. You were one of those people who participated in the beta test 1.71 and you remember very well how many conflicting situations there were. For example, there were a lot of players who were happy that Desynchronization and Sinistro buff enemies. But this is a bad concept and when the desynchronization stopped buffing the enemies, they quickly changed their shoes...It only punishes Xelor players when other classes are more harmonious. Iop does not give strength to the enemy, and Cra does not buff range for enemies. Why then should Xelor play against himself? And most defenders of bad concepts are not playing now. They just spoiled the information space and did not bring anything constructive...

For me, game design shouldn't be unilateral. As the great game designer Tynan Sylvester said :

Game design is hard to learn because mistakes feel like victories.
The signals of a mistake are hard to interpret and slow to arrive - often only coming years later.
The try-fail-adjust-retry learning loop is crazy long - if it ever closes at all.


For me, Xelor revamp was like that.Delayed damage more...delayed now. But it was in the class only with more freedoms. Do they think the positioning is good? But it was much better before the revamp, as was the support. Why then was this revamp needed? It would have been written, "we want to nerf Xelor", or at least needed made a survey of what the players want and don't want, like they did with Osa revamp. If any of the game designers play Xelor 1.70 and Xelor 1.71, it seems to me that these things are so obvious that it's hard not to notice them.

There is no limit to perfection. Every game designer should strive to outdo himself in order to evolve, and that includes rethinking ideas and beliefs. It should be like a judgment, not like a book that can be thrown away and forgotten. It was supposed to be a court where there are judges and juries, where there is a lawyer and a prosecutor. Do you understand? Most of the implemented ideas are made unilaterally and the worst thing is that there are no guarantees that in the future other people will not make the new revamp even worse. For me, there are two main problems with this revamp: the inability to keep good ideas that have been tested by time (for many many years) and the inability to provide enough alternatives.

For me, just summon Sinistro for an AP buff is a slave build where we can easily replace another class that interacts more with enemies. As long as the concept that a dead enemy is better than a living one is in the game, we are forced to focus on more interaction with the enemy. Why do I need a Xelor that will give a lot of action points, if I can take a second iop or a sacrier in the team, which will definitely be more useful than just AP buff? Or I can take an enu, which will remove resistances from enemies and take away their movement points.

We used to be able to give more action points on the first turn (up to 5 AP to 3 allies) before revamp, but we couldn't do it every turn because rollback didn't always give us 6 AP every turn.
I like that your Sinistro doesn't attack and grants 1 action point WHEN ALLY'S TURN STARTS and considering Xelor's turn too. And as for other ideas, you are a great fellow! I like all the interactions between these elements, I like that this passive is not just numbers, but changes the gameplay, provides an alternative.

Feca had an excellent revamp (after several major changes, the first version was very raw), which has much more functional passives than just a buff / debuff to the numbers in the statistics.
Xelor lacks a role alternative or more related elements in the identity structure.
I apologize for such a big digression, but a game designer and a judge rolled into one is tempted to not listen to anyone other than a lawyer who defends their concepts. Do you remember Sinistro in beta 1.71? 
It gave resistances in close combat. Then it gave resists in a larger radius. Then, already in some of the patch 1.71.1 or 2, the resit buff was removed from Sinistro and the damage was added.
It happened too fast. The idea did not even have time to test itself. I had a feeling that these rushes from one effect to another were simply from the fact that there was no harmonious concept of what to do with Sinistro...
Or simply there was not enough time to implement all the ideas. I do not know what their situation is in Amkama, what is the work schedule and how they are paid. Game designers are people too, they get tired, disappointed in something, lose inspiration, etc. we shouldn't be too hard on them.
Siu has shown that he is able to rethink many of his ideas, and this was demonstrated in patch 1.73. Although we can already argue whether he did it of his own free will or not.
All we can do is write, analyze and come up with ideas. I also have a lot of respect for Siu for reading the English forum. Jranium and Othan appear less frequently on our forum for me. 

Now more for your ideas.
Direction to support only through action points does not look harmonious without additional settings. By patch 1.70, I've seen a lot of Xelor Tank build draining enemies at the same time by taking action points and granting them to allies while still being able to gain 5% HP back. Xelor was self-sufficient and had a unique revive. What is now?

in your concept it will not be self-sufficient, because
1) you are limited in positioning after revamp 
look how easy Xelor could have placed something under Sinistro before revamp...

 =1.5rem2) you do not interact with the enemy in any way, because you will interact with your tools (I will try to explain next in text)
3) you are less survivable 
which makes you not a self-sufficient member of the team, even slave enu build interacts with an enemy that only lowers resistances and takes away movement points.
It is better to separate the possibility of destroying summons from Gear, then Xelor will be able to actively destroy his summons and play more often with a passive  "specialized-mechanisms" which literally aims to get a nice bonus when the summon dies. 

The previous Sinistro attacked TWICE and took action points in a large radius along with his attack
.  
 

 
Before the revamp, the buff AP, as I wrote above, was combined with the ability to take action points and grant them at the same time, as well as the ability to receive 5% HP if you revoming 3 AP
.

In your version, it will be just a great buff AP without interacting with enemies, did I understand correctly? Personally, I lack interaction with the enemy in this to be more self-sufficient than just a slave AP build. Previously, Feca had a glyph that gave 2 AP and if my memory serves me, this glyph cost 4 AP, i.e. Feca spent 8 AP to transfer 4 AP to one ally. It was weird gameplay where most of your game was spent putting glyphs for the AP buff. I want to say the same here. In order for these ideas to be more harmonious, you need to do more interaction with enemies. Forcing a team to position in relation to our tools when they use positioning more often to a) be safe b) put enemies in for aoe hits is just a waste of team resources that is not even compensated by a full 4 AP buff in my opinion. I don't agree that the past Devotion was so abused. Only 6 box players could abusing it, in random battles no one remembered that dial cells can give action points and Xelors did not often write in chat so that an ally ends or start turn on a dial cell. This was a spectacular 2 AP buff that is now more absorbed for Xelor's damage boost.

​ 
xXDarkTurboXx#9686


What do you think? Should Xelor have his Ap giver playstyle back?  If yes how woud you do it?

 






I would like that harmonious interaction between the enemy, Xelor and allies that we had.

when we could remove AP and buff an ally. but I think that apart from that, Xelor should have other tools to support and interact with the enemy. For example, temporary bubbles, in which the spending of action points and movement increases
.
 

Spoiler (click here to show spoiler)

 
 

For each temporary bubble, you can also impose a debuff on Xelor "temporary exhaustion or temporary fatigue", but this is a separate discussionph34r  btw, Xelor had revive from the very start of the game..
.
 

It turns out that for almost 9 years Xelor had a certain concept that was improved so that now we have a completely new concept? XD A bold enough decision, but without the extra attention and polish it NEW XELOR CONCEPT would be a piece of coal and not a diamond like Xelor was...

and in order to sum up this text, which I spent 2 hours of real time on, it is not enough just to improve the buffing AP through the passive, for me (my personal opinion) it is necessary that there is at least some interaction with the enemy, the ability to debuff or support, for example, with revive.

P.S. Thank you for continuing to write, analyze and offer ideas happy
Р.S.S.  Cog PvP meta at level 230. On the international server Rubilax, not everyone has seen this power yet maybe coz PvP in Wakfu needs to be improved to get more people involved. But in PvE it is used much less frequently. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
9 -2
Score : 1259

Amazing Text Tempus. I always like how you are passionate about this class, each text you do brings a lot of points and topics that  are relevant to the character.

I want to start saying that I agree with you about the old Take ap/Give Ap concept.

I really enjoy being able to do both of those functions and how they were naturaly integrated in the character's kit, specially how amazing time control was, it was a simple spell that allowed us to do so many things. I really believe that synergies had a charm in the gameplay that this actual version will never have. Siu is a really cool dude, I talked with him alot on discord, and even if we do ended disagreeing, we both kept respect for each other. So he knows how I respect him but fully dislike his work here. 

The thing that I tried to achieve, here, was to create a gameplay full focused on Ap support but that wouldn't demand you to change your entirely gear if you decided to play it. Let me explain.

In the previous version, as you said, we had tons of interactions Xelor -> Enemy, those interactions were natural however, you did need to sacrifice your equipmant to  be relevant. With the exception of giving Ap, to have a functional sinistro build, you would need to have the status control in your gear, I did something like that and was really fun, but was something that you had to sacrifice time grinding. As you know, sinistro's attack didn't scaled with your best element or domain, so you had to be a single target, close combat Xelor to make it work properly. You couldn't just decide to play that way when you were bored of being the dd. The exactly opposite happened with being an Ap supporter, this option was always open to you. You could always decide to not just GIVE, but also TRANSFER Ap to your alies. So you wasn't just giving Ap, you could also debuff an enemy's turn while doing that. I don't think that the devs would bing this concept back again, because as we know, everything know needs to have a drawback, and as Siu has states a lot of times, taking and giving Ap should already be a reward, so I can't see a world where he allows us to: Stealing, Giving and taking Ap with consistence. 

So my idea here is to make you being able to play that build whenever you want, and be relevant. That's why you see no Ap cap that sinistros or Cog can give, because I want you being able to give a ton of Ap to the point where you area as relevant as a Sadida or Seca buffing someone. Going back to my previous topic, I don't think that devs would be willing  to make changes to the elemental branch, but sinistros really could receive some attention, this would make mechanism more relevant for PvE when you already have too much damage on the composition but doesn't want to buy a whole new gear. 

And yes, you will end being a slave of your team. But that's what I inttended,  but don't think this in a bad way, this passive in no way makes you less active or makes you interact more with your opponent, actually is the opposite, I want to incentivese people to do more than just damage, I want them to be creative with the way they play, you will still have your ability to help your allies to position themselves and taking ap with mechs or elemental spells. Using your bigger number of mechanisms and paradox, you will be able to help them  achieve better spots or disrupt enemy's formation, because now that you can spawn more mechs you have more targets to use your symetric spells, maybe removing some air turn cast cap could also make it better,  this passive also doesn't stops you from destroying Ap from your enemies with your mechs, water spells, or  the passive that removes Ap when you move a target. the only thing I don't want people doing with this build is damage, because this isn't the reason why you would pick it, you would pick it for messing with Ap.

My disappointment with this revamp is that a time mage could be knowed for so much more than just "Having the greatest damager numbers" It really looks like that the devs didn't knew what to do or were just completing things before a deadline. "Give them high damage so they get happy" is  how I can describe this revamp and what they thought while removing the fun and complex mechanics. But I truly believe that this is Ankama's fault, and not Siu and his team.

2 0
Score : 6904

How about a simpler update:

Sinistro
When an enemy starts their turn near a sinistro, they loose 2 AP and take some damage, if the removal succeeds, the sinistro gains a Reserve.
When  a sinistro dies, xelor gains AP equal to the number of Reserves.

Cog
Whenever the Cog is teleported it deal damage around it and looses 10 % HP (like before)
When you cast cog, if a cog (2 with the passive) is already on the field, the farthest cog is fully healed and teleported to that cell.

Mechanical companionship (passive)
When an ally starts their turn near a sinistro, if it has a reserve, it is consumed and the ally gains 1 AP
When a cog deals damage, xelor gains armour requal to 20% of that damage.

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Score : 12583

I like your Reserve idea for Sinistro!!! 
This is really  a simpler update, because from the point of view of the possibilities, for some reason we are able to give action points to our summons now (dial, sinistro and cog),


but from the point of view of the game gameplay, it does not have any functionality <_< Even Desynchronization can buff the AP of our summons XD 

Spoiler (click here to show spoiler)

Sinistro with 4 AP pensive
And if the reserve is returned to Xelor, then this will help with the regeneration of WP, but this can be abused as a damage dealer role...
Cody, how much do you think Sinistro could get a reserve for every 2 AP taken from the enemy?
I like the passive you suggest that the reserve will be used by the allies too. 
About Cog, I would like it to be more attractive for alternative in PvE gameplay. Coz PvP at level 230, Cog is simply unbelievable with the appropriate setting in items. And any increase/simplification of the use of Cog further enhances its impact on PvP. So I would be as careful as possible here, but I still think it would be great to see a Cog alternative for playing in PvE too (at different levels).
4 -1
Score : 12583

completely agree. I have the same thoughts about Devotion that targeting an empty cell looks like something unfinished and like a punishment.
Unfortunately, I did not find this time in the game, but Xelor friends from that time said that there were living Sinistro in Wakfu. They were controlled by artificial intelligence, which was very aggressive judging by the fact that the concept of living Sinistro was later abandoned, because Xelors of that time literally spammed them.

but it's one thing to give control of Sinistro to the AI, and another to the player.  

not only Paradox should be improved, Gear the limit must be lifted and scaled (for balance) by cost per use. Also, many wrote that it was necessary to separate the destruction of summons into a separate tool without wasting the positional capabilities of Gear. This will allow positioning also Sinistro and Cog by Gear, which are now simply destroyed by it. 

otherwise I like the ideas, thanks for sticking around looking for ways to bring some love back into this class.
I hope the author of the topic will also comment, interesting to know his opinion too

Granthese#6501|2022-05-09 10:16:51
What if we simplify it a bit further? One thing that REALLY bothers me is how Devotion can be cast on an empty cell. First question: WHY? Second question:... again, WHY???
This spell have no reason to target an empty cell aside from brutally punishing missclicks! So here's a better idea:
Devotion: When cast on an Empty Cell - Grants 2APs on a 3-cells Circle Radius
This way Xelor can give APs to a lot of allies but since Devotion costs a wallop of 4WPs, I find this effect pretty balanced if we perhaps exclude the Xelor out of it. You sacrifice AP that would go into you to give it to Allies.

Also, Sinistro's effect should trigger at the start of an ally's turn around it, not after the Xelor's next turn, its just useless to expect allies to stay exactly where you placed the Sinistro!
Or better yet! Make it a living summon like Eniripsa's coney! Let us move the Sinistro around giving 1AP to allies on our own control! Give the Sinistro 2 spells: one that gives AP, one that takes away with a small water dmg.

Cog is in a solid position now that Xel's positioning was improved, but I still think Paradox should allow 2 casts per enemy rather than one. And since Cog's damage is indirect, I think the damage is well-rounded when you can use 2 cheap sublimations and a passive to ramp it up by 40%.

That aside, maybe the passive Remanence could gain a new effect (because so far it is a darn solid passive):
  • Cog no longer damages allies and triggers once summoned and when the Xelor's turn end, costing no HP out of it.
  • Sinistro no longer gives AP, instead allies standing their turn 3 cells around it gain a status:
  1. Temporal Extorsion: The caster's attacks gain +10% damage per AP spent.
  2. Sinistro's Elemental Resistance and HP is halved.
1 -1
Score : 6904

Yeah i'd prefer if the summon destruction was an innate spell instead of being stuck on Gear

2 0
Score : 1259

 

Granthese#6501|2022-05-09 06:16:51
What if we simplify it a bit further? One thing that REALLY bothers me is how Devotion can be cast on an empty cell. First question: WHY? Second question:... again, WHY???
This spell have no reason to target an empty cell aside from brutally punishing missclicks! So here's a better idea:
Devotion: When cast on an Empty Cell - Grants 2APs on a 3-cells Circle Radius
This way Xelor can give APs to a lot of allies but since Devotion costs a wallop of 4WPs, I find this effect pretty balanced if we perhaps exclude the Xelor out of it. You sacrifice AP that would go into you to give it to Allies.

Also, Sinistro's effect should trigger at the start of an ally's turn around it, not after the Xelor's next turn, its just useless to expect allies to stay exactly where you placed the Sinistro!
Or better yet! Make it a living summon like Eniripsa's coney! Let us move the Sinistro around giving 1AP to allies on our own control! Give the Sinistro 2 spells: one that gives AP, one that takes away with a small water dmg.

Cog is in a solid position now that Xel's positioning was improved, but I still think Paradox should allow 2 casts per enemy rather than one. And since Cog's damage is indirect, I think the damage is well-rounded when you can use 2 cheap sublimations and a passive to ramp it up by 40%.

That aside, maybe the passive Remanence could gain a new effect (because so far it is a darn solid passive):
  • Cog no longer damages allies and triggers once summoned and when the Xelor's turn end, costing no HP out of it.
  • Sinistro no longer gives AP, instead allies standing their turn 3 cells around it gain a status:
  1. Temporal Extorsion: The caster's attacks gain +10% damage per AP spent.
  2. Sinistro's Elemental Resistance and HP is halved.

Long time no see Granthese.

Hum... I agree with a lot of things  you said.

Devotion being casted on an empty cell is dumb, there is no reason for that.
 Althoug I agree with your idea about devotion giving Ap in AoE, I can't stop thinking that if they wanted devotion to be a AoE spell, why would they remove the Dial interaction in first place? this only says to me that devotion being a Single Target spell is exactly what they want it to be, so althoug I agree with you that it could be AoE, I don't think that they would allow a AoE Ap give spell to be easy to use. Look at desync, it could boost your Allies Ap but they had to complicate things by making it buff enemies and taking ap from your allies.(Remembering that desync can't affect the xelor and since that Ap = Wp you already loses Wp trying to buff your allies).

"Also, Sinistro's effect should trigger at the start of an ally's turn around it, not after the Xelor's next turn, its just useless to expect allies to stay exactly where you placed the Sinistro!
Or better yet! Make it a living summon like Eniripsa's coney! Let us move the Sinistro around giving 1AP to allies on our own control! Give the Sinistro 2 spells: one that gives AP, one that takes away with a small water dmg."

I agree with the first part, sinistros shouldn't be limited to Xelor turn, instead, they should  always be relevant in the game.
but about the second one... I thought alot about making sinistros move by itself, but there is something about being a stationary mechanism that makes it unique, sadly it's effects are not good enough to show this nowdays, but what made hydrants and sinistros different from normal summons is that they had a specif purpouse, and being stationary  was part of this. They were like a territory where you know xelor have domain, this was killed when cog started to damage allies and sinistro to buff enemies. But I do want to bring it back, making Xelor more like a control mage who controls his time dimension or something like that. 

About temporal Extortion: is cool, but I think Xelor doesn't need any more damage in his kit ​
The damage we have is already limiting the class to have a lot of more cool things, so I don't want to bring more.

 I really appreciate you giving your time to come here and comment. Thank you, Hope ankama see those ideas.
1 0
Score : 6904

Technically casting devotion on an empty cell has one use: You can cast it on a sram while he is invisible.
For some reason, target-only spells cannnot be cast on invisible targets, even allies.

2 0
Score : 12583

 

xXDarkTurboXx#9686|2022-05-10 11:15:05
Amazing Text Tempus. I always like how you are passionate about this class, each text you do brings a lot of points and topics that  are relevant to the character.

I want to start saying that I agree with you about the old Take ap/Give Ap concept.

I really enjoy being able to do both of those functions and how they were naturaly integrated in the character's kit, specially how amazing time control was, it was a simple spell that allowed us to do so many things. I really believe that synergies had a charm in the gameplay that this actual version will never have. Siu is a really cool dude, I talked with him alot on discord, and even if we do ended disagreeing, we both kept respect for each other. So he knows how I respect him but fully dislike his work here. 

The thing that I tried to achieve, here, was to create a gameplay full focused on Ap support but that wouldn't demand you to change your entirely gear if you decided to play it. Let me explain.

In the previous version, as you said, we had tons of interactions Xelor -> Enemy, those interactions were natural however, you did need to sacrifice your equipmant to  be relevant. With the exception of giving Ap, to have a functional sinistro build, you would need to have the status control in your gear, I did something like that and was really fun, but was something that you had to sacrifice time grinding. As you know, sinistro's attack didn't scaled with your best element or domain, so you had to be a single target, close combat Xelor to make it work properly. You couldn't just decide to play that way when you were bored of being the dd. The exactly opposite happened with being an Ap supporter, this option was always open to you. You could always decide to not just GIVE, but also TRANSFER Ap to your alies. So you wasn't just giving Ap, you could also debuff an enemy's turn while doing that. I don't think that the devs would bing this concept back again, because as we know, everything know needs to have a drawback, and as Siu has states a lot of times, taking and giving Ap should already be a reward, so I can't see a world where he allows us to: Stealing, Giving and taking Ap with consistence. 

So my idea here is to make you being able to play that build whenever you want, and be relevant. That's why you see no Ap cap that sinistros or Cog can give, because I want you being able to give a ton of Ap to the point where you area as relevant as a Sadida or Seca buffing someone. Going back to my previous topic, I don't think that devs would be willing  to make changes to the elemental branch, but sinistros really could receive some attention, this would make mechanism more relevant for PvE when you already have too much damage on the composition but doesn't want to buy a whole new gear. 

And yes, you will end being a slave of your team. But that's what I inttended,  but don't think this in a bad way, this passive in no way makes you less active or makes you interact more with your opponent, actually is the opposite, I want to incentivese people to do more than just damage, I want them to be creative with the way they play, you will still have your ability to help your allies to position themselves and taking ap with mechs or elemental spells. 








Thank you for your clarification and compliment.

I am inspired by people like you who analyze, propose ideas and analyze again. It's a magical and creative process.
When we mention Sinistro and say that we needed to have control in the items before revamp, this is only for an optimized build. At start you get 1 point of control in character stats, 2 points can be obtained in major points and 2 points of control Xelor could get from this passive.

We have a total of 5 Sinistro without the need to specialize items... which already provided alternative gameplay because if we don't take into account high difficulty content, Sinistro stayed alive for several turns in combat, performing a variety of functions: 1) distracting mobs 2) attacking mobs 3) remove AP from mobs 
and in PvP it allowed to additionally deplete the enemy if it did not want to be distracted by Sinistro.
Will I want to put Sinistro in PvP now after the revamp? Definitely not, because enemy will get an action point...which I conclude that the alternative gameplay for the Xelor suffered.
The following is a classification from personal experience. What Xelors were before revamp?
  • three element Xelor (they didn't switch Tick/Tock to take advantage of one phase, and they used Air/Fire combo damage (initiative burn) on Tick and Water/Fire (Temporal Freeze state) on Tock)
  • duo element Xelor (here was focus on one phase or Tick for AoE (4 out of 5 fire spells were AoE) OR focus on Tock for full single damage through Temporal Freeze)
  • Excess build via cool air spell. Combined support in anticipation of the best moment to apply the Excess combo in this spell (can be casted on one enemy 3 times)
  • Sinistro build from 5 to 10 our lovely owlets
  • Build on HP. The more HP you had, the more you could restore yourself 5% of removing 3 AP.  Here it is important to have a lot of HP and a lot of willpower in order to successfully remove 3 action points. Usually HP build was combined with many resists build (and positioning) or Excess build.
  • Hydrand aoe build using temporal dust bonus (combo of delayed and direct damage Hydrant is delayed and temporal dust is direct).

At the same time, at any convenient moment, you could take advantage of the positioning of objects. You had precise positioning and could push objects 1-3 cells, and THAT MOST IMPORTANTLY YOU COULD ACTIVATE DELAYED EFFECTS.  All that limited you before revamp was action points. If you wanted to position more, you couldn't deal damage or support with buff AP сoz you spent action points just to place 5 AP 1 WP (dial) for 1 precise positioning so for 2 precise positioning you needed 10 AP and 1 WP. You also had two strong identity elements before revamp: Rollback, Tick/Tock, and two important (but situational) elements: Mummification and Current Time.

What did Siu do in revamp? He did a cool thing that moved the current time from a situational identity element to a full-fledged element that can be modified through passives (reverse movement, damage replacement for increase willpower, teleportation to the current time).
THIS IS JUST INCREDIBLE.
I get an incredible cognitive orgasm when my Xelor automatically teleports to the current hour and use it in PvP and in some PvE contexts.

Spoiler (click here to show spoiler)

 If fight vs Feca who figured out that you using it passive, Feca just puts the glyphs in the current time and GG  cool

After revamp, mummification has been removed and Tick/Tock moved to optional status (in passives), which is just a buff and a debuff in numbers. Rollback has been replaced with a new Time thief system.

Speaking of spells some  spells are made at a high level of creative creativity. Hammer, new Clock 1.73 (which is connected to identity through interaction with the time thief), Hand, Punishment, Dust.) And as I wrote earlier, I am repelled by a game in which good ideas can disappear. I don't want to play a game where a good idea is replaced by a new one that may not be as good and doesn't want to change to be better. Therefore, what guarantees do we have that new elements of the revamp will not be saved later? Absolutely zero guarantees. In the same way that time-tested elements like Underhand's abilities were thrown into the trash before the revamp, likewise I can't enjoy the revamp because good concepts can change here, and this is constant unconscious stress.

You know, Xelor hasn't been changed in a very long time. The last major overhaul was with the introduction of the Spell Deck system. Then there were small nerfs and restrictions, for example, Underhand was not limited to teleporting anything within 5 tiles and could literally teleport anything from anywhere on the map mellow
The fact that the class did not change for a long time indicated that agreements were reached between the player and the developer, but this does not mean that everything was really perfect.

What wasn't ideal?
We wrote about this when the news appeared that there would be 5 major revamps. We wrote about how the initiative removal is misleading and we want an improvement for alternative gameplay through Xelor summons. We were ready to accept dial moves as WP, but we didn't expect so many things to be removed (synergies, unique spells, identity elements). It didn't look like an improvement. I remember the reaction of every Xelor who wrote then on the forum and how this reaction changed. I remember a thread from Granthese where he suggested a lot of new synergies, https://www.wakfu.com/en/forum/50-xelor/240351-xelor-revamp-proposal
which tell that he also didn't expect there to be no synergies after revamp.
so,
OKEY, no initiative removal anymore, but have the summons been improved? Why is the new concept better than what gave me 1 passive, 1 major points? I can get MAX 2 Sinistro after revamp and they still buff the enemy T___T 

You state to me that according to Siu, removing action points is already a reward, but at the same time it possible for Sinistro to give action points for enemy after revamp, this is the opposite action in class design logic.
Yes, and the removal of action points is a controversial topic. For PvE content, it's always better to remove movement points, because IT IS NOT CLEAR WHAT HOW BIG AFFECT AP REMOVING WILL BE INFLUENCED. MP the effect is immediately visible - your opponent may not move at all

Siu wrote here https://www.wakfu.com/en/forum/50-xelor/238293-class-revamp-2020-xelor


that he analyzed the information and some of the mobs really become weaker from the removal of action points, but  we do not have an encyclopedia of mobs spells and all information is purely personal experience inside game, which negatively affects the attractiveness of the gameplay to remove AP.

This brings us to the second point, why should I remove action points when I can take advantage of the new damage opportunities?  Xelor before revamp could do damage, but that damage was ALWAYS average. It made up for it with ease of switching to support and positioning, but the old Xelor had average spell damage. It was a balance. The new Xelor has huge damage and therefore playing PvE through the removal of action points is not so attractive due to
  • lack of a transparency system for the effect of removing action points on AI
  • no motivating systems to reward Xelor for specializing in removing action points
  • it is better to increase the willpower of the enemy by removing movement points. It is creating a fictional delayed action. the enemy will not move and in the next turn a certain place on the map will always be safe and advantageous.
  • you have huge damage just to kill a mob now.

I think it's a very important element of game design to have motivating elements, because the more severe the restrictions, the less fun it will be. At the time when I started playing, there was not yet 5% HP in the passive. This effect appeared as a result of interaction with past developers and I can’t say what the arguments were and whether it was done due to the request of the players or by the decision of the developers. I just remember that this effect popped up and permanently improved the possibilities for alternative Xelor gameplay before revamp.

For PvE, Xelor after revamp has no alternative gameplay. You are no longer playing as full HP, full willpower, or Excess build. You have become worse positioning. You can give fewer action points on the first turn and AP buffing has become more stringent on conditions.
How Xelors play PvE now (I note that I don’t give an assessment to this, but just share my experience):
  •  SPAM DISTORTION builds that require hard WP management.
  • "Pendulum" build - player waits for T3 to do explosive damage through the use of the Tick/Tock passive.
much less you can find in PvE too :
  • Сog build
  • Delayed damage build
  • Full support/positioning build

and also I have never seen a three element build or Excess build on Xelor after the revamp. Most use Air/Fire and also Water/Fire (through use of a hammer spell).


Before revamp I could put all 3-4 Sinistro on the first turn, but now I can only put 1 per turn and limited to 2 if I take a passive. Sinistro are no longer such a distraction and waste Xelor's resources more than they provide a real alternative or benefit.Ideas from you and from the guys have already been proposed to improve this, so I will not stop here for a long time.

Due to the lack of motivating systems in the form of 5% HP and the ability to easily manipulate action points, many resists-support builds and builds that would full focus on taking action points have now disappeared from the Xelors (especially the first one tank-support). 
so,
I can clearly see, and want to make this a key element of this message, that Xelor after revamp has a great foundation to shine on. Xelor can now remove more action points. But it does not have any motivation and motivational systems for this.

Siu has laid a great foundation, some elements are amazing (in spells, current hour system) and increased damage, which made people who do not go into our identity and our past just happy. . 
However, a foundation without a home is an incomplete gestalt. I chose this class in 2013 and it has been my home for many, many years.

If Xelor could influence  willpower of the enemy, then there would be many more people who would use the build through the shriveling passive.
If delayed damage could be activated in the current turn, there would be many more people who would play through it and Excess build.If Sandglass spell will will not harm allies, this will also only have a positive effect on alternative gameplay.
The ability to activate delayed effects has also affected positioning in the past.

Siu brought a new element to delayed : delayed action points, both in the time thief concept and in Desynchronization spell. If we could activate the delayed effects in the current turn, we could get the AP buff from Desynchronization  in the current turn, which would make the AP buff and support build more comfortable.
Or
we can upgrade Sinistro for positioning/support and remove damage. This damage was not in beta testing pensive, if I'm not mistaken it was added directly to live versions 1.71.1 or 1.71.2 patch (don't remember exactly which patch in 1.71 and very tired to check now) 
I don't mind the damage on Sinistro, but compared Sinistro 1.70 this damage is not serious. It's better to focus on something else, given how much damage there is now in Xelor.

Unfortunately, manipulating the opponent's willpower has one serious drawback, -  abuse of removing action points. Of course there are different ways to balance this, for example if Xelor takes too many action points, he will take huge damage for hmmmm through the effect ... a temporary anomaly up to a full KO, which will put the player in opportunities and severe punishment for abuse, I'm sure there are many ways how to balance willpower manipulation, but adding it would greatly improve the alternate gameplay for Xelor class.
  
We have an excellent foundation to develop and improve Xelor in the future. But in order for everyone to be happy, we must learn to save what works well. There are good elements in this revamp. For me, the past is always important. It cannot be completely dropped if it worked well. But it can evolve, become something new.Since the revamp, Xelor has also expanded his path to play in that he can play backstab damage and berserk, but the options for this game are reduced to 1-2 builds compared to how you could play before the revamp.

I agree that Sinistro needs to be improved. For me if this improvement is without taking into account the delayed granting of action points, then we are again in a problem area.
No one Feca plays through its delayed effects, because it has a passive to receive these effects immediately. But the very possibility of playing differently remains. The new Xelor doesn't have this freedom of choice in delayed effects.

And Xelor's ability to help through positioning is limited after revamp. Therefore, improving Paradox spell and other tools is also welcome, I agree.
xXDarkTurboXx#9686|2022-05-10 11:15:05
Using your bigger number of mechanisms and paradox, you will be able to help them  achieve better spots or disrupt enemy's formation, because now that you can spawn more mechs you have more targets to use your symetric spells, maybe removing some air turn cast cap could also make it better,  this passive also doesn't stops you from destroying Ap from your enemies with your mechs, water spells, or  the passive that removes Ap when you move a target. the only thing I don't want people doing with this build is damage, because this isn't the reason why you would pick it, you would pick it for messing with Ap.

My disappointment with this revamp is that a time mage could be knowed for so much more than just "Having the greatest damager numbers" It really looks like that the devs didn't knew what to do or were just completing things before a deadline. "Give them high damage so they get happy" is  how I can describe this revamp and what they thought while removing the fun and complex mechanics. But I truly believe that this is Ankama's fault, and not Siu and his team.








and THANK YOU again for opening this topic and sharing your ideas, thoughts and analysis.
hope Xelor future will be harmonious! 
 
P.S
.


P.S.S. small note added after 5 hours about the good elements of the past which could evolve for the new version, for example , old Punishment spell whose code has always been able to interact with the dial (in an older version, for using it, he permanently destroyed dial cell O_O I don't have a gif, but  put this one in). 


what prevented  to do the interaction Punishment and current hour?  accurately move the current hour or change its effect to random? one of the effects, for example, would allow you to consume the current hour for a bonus, etc. a small portion of randomness as a disadvantage and a high price for using it (5 AP cost Punishment spell). 
I think that the concept of the current hour that has evolved can continue to evolve in our identity as an element that we have inherited from the past and has been greatly improved by Siu.
3 -1
Score : 6904

I personally believe that granting delayed effects immediatly kinda defeats the point of having the effects delayed in the first place.

If i had to change xelor I would add a state to enemies that shows how much Ap you have to remove to impact their turn, just for better clarity.
Also I would nerf or rework distortion, because it is so strong i have never seen a single xelor that doesn't use it. Maybe without it we would see some actual build variety.

1 0
Score : 339

 

About Cog, I would like it to be more attractive for alternative in PvE gameplay. Coz PvP at level 230, Cog is simply unbelievable with the appropriate setting in items. And any increase/simplification of the use of Cog further enhances its impact on PvP. So I would be as careful as possible here, but I still think it would be great to see a Cog alternative for playing in PvE too (at different levels).

Perhaps place a passive that reduces damage the cog deals in exchange for that armor buff? I don't know, maybe -10% Damage to deal 20% shield. These are just thrown out numbers of course.
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Score : 12583

 

Grimdepre#4441|2022-06-18 18:23:52
 
About Cog, I would like it to be more attractive for alternative in PvE gameplay. Coz PvP at level 230, Cog is simply unbelievable with the appropriate setting in items. And any increase/simplification of the use of Cog further enhances its impact on PvP. So I would be as careful as possible here, but I still think it would be great to see a Cog alternative for playing in PvE too (at different levels).





Perhaps place a passive that reduces damage the cog deals in exchange for that armor buff? I don't know, maybe -10% Damage to deal 20% shield. These are just thrown out numbers of course.





Hello!
When we talk about armor, its generation is really low and the Xelor class lacks even the minimum ability to restore HP (even Rogue can heal himself through spell and Feca can heal himself through a passive).
However, the class mechanic allows you to use one  cool sublimation, if you save your turn with 6 AP you get 60 res for two turns plus Xelor's passive for +50 res (combat mage) and we already have resistances that reduce the loss of HP. For me, armor generation never felt natural for this class, and the past problem with the glass class was partly offset by the ability to regenerate 5% HP if you take 3 AP. If this sublimation gets nerfed in the future, there will likely be a survivability issue.
Now I don't see a problem with survivability (after patch 1.73). We can use dial more often to be safe in PvE content, however in PvP 1vs1 or 3vs3 armor can only be invested in very specific builds using the new PvP debuff against long fights (every 3 or 4 turns everyone loses resistances and gains MP) .
Speaking of Cog or Sinistro, I lack harmony in them. The new sinistro is worse than the last one (which attacked twice and took AP). The new sinistro attacks once and gives AP even to the enemy. Cog in PvP is spamming spells to activate the Temporal Twist glyph....very weird. There are only a few dungeons in PvE where Cog is useful. Otherwise, it is an expensive and unfinished tool.
I like the Cra beacon. A cheap and harmonic instrument. If I want to use Cog for positioning, it is VERY EXPENSIVE.
Cog 4 AP + Paradox 4 AP and 2 AP Gear (if I want to use Cog for positioning next turn). However, using Gear on Cog will change my position, which is not always safe. So I have to stabilize +5 AP by Suspension.
Total = 15 AP to position more safely and accurately. I'm talking about a controlled scenario, there may be a situation on the battle where I don't need to summon Cog in order to use Paradox. I can't rely on this random alignment of stars in the sky just to play well.
Therefore, it is my personal preference that Cog be a tool to support 1 WP and 1 AP or 0 AP 2 WP (as a stricter limitation). So one precise positioning would cost 4 AP Paradox 2 AP Gear (to destroy it) and maybe 5 AP if I don't want to swap places with the Cog when it is destroyed. Total = 11AP vs 15AP
much more realistic and will prevent Xelor from combining it with damage. And if Xelor is allowed to set the Temporal Twist glyphs separately (one at a time), then this convenience will also allow using positioning more harmoniously and pushing the positioning object out of the Temporal Twist glyph, because if it remains there, it will be ping pong...
There are probably people who would like Cog to present a more accessible and harmonious gameplay with the ability to deal damage.But in another topic about Xelor class link, Arachive#9273 -  provided super analysis in which concludes that many elements of the new Xelor are inharmonious. 
Do you want to have a lot of Willpower to remove AP? Then you will not be able to give AP through desync (because you will remove 4 AP and give only 2 on the next turn lol). Want less willpower to better buff AP? Then forget about removing AP. And other examples of strange game design elements.

....
analysis by Arachive#9273 

Spoiler (click here to show spoiler)

Each specialisation contradicts something else:
  • Investment in critical hit % for distortion fails to help Cog and Shrivelling damage
  • Investment in block % and resistance fails to help Cog death for Specialised Mechanism and Assimilation by making it harder for yourself to kill them, yet Summons want you to be near them or them to be near the enemy to be attacked.
  • Investment in high Force of Will means Desync is sure to damage your allies from Shrivelling or remove their AP
  • Investment in low Force of Will is only worthwhile for Desync, one single spell.
  • Investment in fluctuating Force of Will means you do both poorly (not even guaranteed 0AP removal at 80FoW with Tick Tock and Cyclothermia)
  • Assimilation lowers your max WP, but the things that favours killings require WP (distortion, devotion, or summoning Sinistro)
  • Momentary permutation isn't considered a form of transposition when it activates
  • Clockmaking appears to do a blanket % damage inflicted reduction even when Dial is off the field
  • Remanence loses the line of sight blocking for enemies as well, making one of the purpose of having summons weakened

 

EDIT
A very strange thing. I wrote about the theory and decided to check and.... I can not destroy Cog by Gear after using Suspension, although this is not indicated anywhere. very HARMONIOUS
class...( the only condition is 1 use per turn )
.

that's why people ask to separate the function of this tool into two
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Score : 339

Well this is a time mage we are talking about, maybe a ability that is cast on ourselves that have a delayed effect. "Rewind" or something, where when the buff is on Xelar at the start of his next turn any damage that was dealt to him, half of it is healed, and any mobility chances, IE if he was moved he teleports back to his original spot. I dont know, I'm not a game designer. I'm a DM for DnD and I make alot of homebrew. But making game ability's for a MMO is far different then a table top for 4 people xD

2 0
Score : 6904

 

Grimdepre#4441|2022-06-18 20:47:18
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of the current stat of Xelor either. When I think of a Xelor the first thing that my mind goes to is Nox. And well, certainly don't feel like I'm playing the number one under rated villain or all time. Anyway, My main issue with the class is something you and many other have brought up. The class doesn't have an identity outside being a damage dealer. And sure the class has support spells, but simply having a means to heal or apply armor doesn't out right make you a support. And we cant use the mobility in Xelors spell pool to label him as a support solo-ly on the reason that takes up the label as "Positioner". And the 3rd Label is "Prevent Movement". which is another thing that irks me.



I believe the "prevent movement" is a misstranslation of "prevent action/debuffer", pertaining to their ability to remove AP.
1 -1
Score : 3330

Yes, I agree. It means removing action points.

2 -1
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