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A suggestion for the Wp Regen mechanic.

By xXDarkTurboXx#9686 - MEMBER - December 04, 2021, 08:37:55

Hello everyone, how are you guys doing? Hope everything is good at those hard time in the world...

Introduction

° Ok, first I want to say that the things I will wrigt here are just concepts, but at the same time I believe that, through polishing, those ideas can get really good and can be easily implemented in the game, they are just ideas that I had while playing with the revamp during this year, and comparing his actual gameplay with what he used to be. That said, if you do like the way the Xelor's wp regeneration went in this revamp this post maybe isn't for you, I will give my reasons why I believe that the actual wp regen mechanic is bad and why it should be changed but I really would appreciate a comment explaning why you disagree with me. Note that I'm talking  specifically about the Wp regen, not the Wp -> Ap conversion, because I believe that we can keep this mechanic and still make the gameplay more fun. Even if it looks hard to understand at first glance, they will be very simple to learn, of course, I'm expecting that the user has a functional brain...

 ° The reasons why I believe the Wp regen actually is a problem to the class is a little complex...
The first reason is that it directly interferes in how the player uses the character, in other words, how the player PLAYS the character, this statment is true for ALL classes in the game, every class will have his gameplay changed. even if just a little, everytime it's Wp regen is updated. So having your gameplay around your Wp isn't a problem, Wp is the name of the game, and I do agree with Siu when he said in discord that it shouldn't have so little influence in the character, I agree with that. As I mentioned before, having your gameplay revolving around your Wp isn't  a problem, but, and a big BUT, when you decide to do something like that, you have to be 1000% certain that this mechanic will be fun to use, and will synergize very, Very, VERY WELL will the entirely gameplay of the class, and here ladies and gentlemen... is where the revamp was a failure. 



The gameplay

° One of the most notorious things in the revamp is the change in how the Xelor builds Ap in his turns, the actual mechanic is based in a series of Ap into Wp conversions, there is other methods, like a passive where you gain Wp when you kill someone, but in mosts cases you will be using the first one. Everytime you end your turn, every Ap that you didn't used, will be converted into Wp, this conversion has a Cap,  you can't convert more Ap than what you have of base Wp, so for example, if you have 12 wp base (6 naturally plus 6 from the Xelor passive that doubles your Wp account) you can convert Ap until you have 12 Wp, so if you have 13 Ap and 12 Wp base and 0 current Wp in the  fight and skip the turn, you will convert 12 Ap into Wp.

° In the previous version of the class the way Xelor builds Ap is different, Wp didn't have any impact in that, you had a passive called rollback, everytime you used a spell you had a chance of stacking one state of rollback, up to 6 stacks, them whenever you wanted you could use rollback spell to convert those stored stacks into Ap, is pretty simple to explain. Use a spell  -> the game flips a coin and you could and couldn't receive the stack, it was a RNG system.

Ok, you telled me the difference between those systems, but what's the point in changing the actual one? It works as simple as the old one, skip a turn convert, uses a spell gains a stack, looks pretty simple.

Here is where the thing I talked early beggins, just for reading you can understand how the introduction of Wp regen in this equation changed the way the Xelor player uses the character now. Before you were encouraged to stay active in your turns to keep building rollback, using all your Ap was a good thing because you was rewarded for that, i'm not so sure but if I remember correctly the more expensive was the spell higher was the chance you of gaining Rollback stacks, this did you always think in using your powerfull spells and not just spamming low cost ones. Because  now the Wp depends on your remaining Ap, you are discouraged to play the turns, instead of being active, now you have to SKIP turns with unused Ap. Can you see the difference here? how this is the extremely oposite from what we had before? 
Those changes makes the character feels extremely slow and boring to play, if you mix this with some passives restrictions there will be turns where you will skip enterely because you gain nothing from playing it.

We went from a system, that encouraged the player to actually PLAY the turns in a effective way to a system where sometimes is better just WAIT for another turn to come , this is what patience would be if it was a rpg. And That's why i'm suggesting those changes, if we now that this is a revamp, in other words, a update of a preexistent class, making so big twist in the gameplay ends with the reason why people picked it in first place. So i'm saying that the solution for this problem is bring rollback back? No, it was bad because of the RNG, but I do believe that a system wich encourages the player to stay active in the turns, or in better words: PLAY THE GAME;  is the direction the class should have.

Note:

Before I dive into the concepts, let me show to you a change that I think would make the Xelor more Healthy with those concepts:

New Memory
Increases the Xelor's Wp Cap.

This change is intended to turn the passive more interactive with the player, instead of giving you free Wp it let's you build it while the game flows, and since now you have to get the extra Wp it no longs needs to break one of your legs.

One more note:

Those concepts are intend to substitute the actual Wp regen, not coexist with it, note that I'm talking about the Wp Regen, not the Conversion of Wp into Ap. I don't think that it would be healthy for the game leaving both on the class, the new and the old, it would be to easy to restore Ap and the player would be rewarded for skiping turns, a thing that I don't see how could be good for the gameplay.


Second Concept(Discarded)

I have to admit that this is my favorite one, it really fits the class theme and gives more use for a different role, even in PVE.

This concept is pretty simple, instead of turning Ap into Wp, the way Xelor gets Wp is from removing Ap from enemies, so it would be something like this:

Whenever Xelor removes Ap from oponents he steals the Ap and stores it for later, when the xelor uses the... (The spell that converts Wp into AP)  he also transfers the stored Ap that he stealed into his Wp.

Imagine all the possibilites, now this not only encouraged you to stay active during tock turns in pve, it also encourages you to use your Ap removal spells on monsters, to build you Wp, finally you now will have a big reward when using the passives that increases your Willpower, the more willpower more Ap you can build. So what  would you prefer? Do you want more damage, putting another passive there, o increase your power while the game flows(Put a willpower passive there)? THIS IS AMAZING, because it fits the theme of preventing role that the Xelor has for PVE and PVP.

Update: 12/5/2021

Second Concept Update 12/05/2021

Although this concept looks pretty theme based(That's was it's my favorite), as pointed by Bluhen#6777, it has serious Problems.
 Bluhen#6777 , cody5#2705 , 9Nectum9#1864 , Granthese#6501 and Thothus#6662 , pointed that it's too near of just one branch,  my mistake here is that I  disconsidered  that some people doesn't play with water branch, even if Ap removal is one of the main elements that makes the class unique(Not the capability to remove but the constancy that the class can do it), making a main mechanic based on that would be unfair, and disrespectful, with those who are used to play the class with out the water branch, that said, this mechanic goes against the main concept of this thread, that is giving more freedom to the player. Implementing this would entail more changes for every other branches, and that's not what this thread is about, so I will stop talking about it for now and focus on another concept.



Dial concept

This first concept is a thing I was thinking recently, it has a interaction with the dial and requeires attention to be done, so it's not free.

Every two turns(Yes, is a reference to old tick tock) the Xelor gains Wp equals to his Hour Cell's position, if the dial isn't in game the Xelor regens 1 Wp.

Keeping the hour cell  in the right place at the right time seems like a good challenge and demonstration of player's skill, coordenating between attacking and managing the cell should make the player feels that he has more possibilities to play, he can put it at twelve to receive a big number of wp and stay a lot of turns with out needing to regen it, or he can use it while he plays. In every case, this would make the player stand active during turns, he now has a tool that can help him or doom him so he has to pay attention for it. 
"I want to use the hour cell bonus now, but if I do that I will end in a bad number, what should I do?" This is the type of question I think people will ask themselves while playing with this system, and if for some reason he stays at the same spot, it will be 2 turns with the Xelor not moving or not using his most powerfull spells, so I think it's a fair trade, in both cases people will be able tho choose if they  want to nuke or  want to be a constant DPS regen little Wp each time.

Update:12/05/2021

Dial Concept Update 12/05/2021

To my surprise this concept was the most liked , it doesn't mean it's good, but it means that maybe we can  focus on polishing it to a point where everyone feels Ok to play with. Like the second one, those people:  Bluhen#6777 , cody5#2705 , 9Nectum9#1864 , Granthese#6501 and Thothus#6662 pointed problems that it may have, and some stated that it would be too broken.

   cody5#2705 and   Thothus#6662

made the following comments:

  cody5#2705 

"Using the current hour as regen is way too overpowered, since it's easy to control current hour." 
//

Thothus#6662

"However your concept one might be too powerful if the Xelor hugs the 10-12 hour cell. an alternative may be every end of an Even turn, give +WP of a small number if Xelor is on the Current Hour. This reduces abuse from Clockmaking."
//

Thotus gave a suggestion trying to solve this problem, but before entering in what could be changed I want to talk why I don't believe having this system would be too powerfull, note that I'm not invalidating they statements, they have more experience than I, so I'm just showing my points so they can enlight me.

The Hour Cell moves everytime you use your Wp, what includes moving between your dial's Cells, or using your Wp spells: Distortion(2 Wp), Tempus Fugit (2Wp), devotion(4Wp) And Sinistro(2Wp).

If someone is going to keep the hour Cell always at the time of 12, he will need to give up all the spells above, what to me is a fair trade. You are giving up resources of your character to enchance another area, this is a high risk and high reward system, and I don't think that this would be broken.

Someone can argue that the passive Dial master would turn this mechanic Op.
What a Xelor using Dial Master would lose(Besides of course, the passive slot)?
Erything except for the spells, what this means? That he still would need to give up the high mobility using the dial cells and repositioning his current Hour... The passive's job is to make the Hours Cell management easier, so this shouldn't be a bad thing. Keep the Cell hour always moving is good for the Xelor because he can't steal mp, making the Hour cell moving allows him to keep targets in range to his spells, if a Xelor keeps his Hour Cell at 12 He will have a limited area of attack where he will have the bonus damage, comparing this to a Xelor that is always using the Hour Cell  you can cleary see the difference, the one that is always using it will have better damage. Again, although he can receive a big number of Wp he needs to sacrifice mobility and his positioning, making him an easy  and predictable target.
My point is that, if you do want sit down on the 12 cell you can, but you won't be using 100% of the character.

some specific scenarios:

In PVE your party lock the monsters so The Xelor can sit in the 12 Hour cell forever.
If your team is working for you, of course you should be rewarded with a easy time, that's the same with an Elio attacking the boss from a portal, enemies always in range of cra beacon etc..., your team is helping you, of course it will be easier to play.

In PVP, the Xelor is sitting on 12 cell.
  This means that he can't use the Dial mobility and have to use air spells to travel by the map, he is sacrificing other spells to mobility what in my opinion is fine.

Note:  if this end's being a problem, we can always put a cap in how much every cell gives you Wp based on which Value the Hour's Cell ended. for example: If the Hour cell end being in the numbers 1 or 2, you receive 2Wp back, if if ends being 3 or 4 you receives 3 wp, 5 to 6 you receive 4 Wp, 7-9 you receive 5 wp and 10 to 12 you receive 6. Not exactly like that but you get the ideia. I think that this wouldn't be that hard to balance and still can keep the skill expression and incentives good decision making for the player.

Moving from that,  Granthese#6501 pointed that there are builds that doesn't use the Dial, his build for example, to solve this I started to think in a system that gives  the Xelor 2 different ways to receive Wp(thanks again to Granthese#6501 who tried to solve this problem in his comment and made that Idea). Wich one of them will be active will depend if the Dial is or isn't in game, if the dial is in game  then the second concept, that I talked until now, would be working, the Xelor would receive Wp depending on the Hour Cell's position. But if the Dial isn't in game, things would change.

First Concept part 2

If the Xelor doesn't have Dial in game he has a Internal Clock.
The clock has 12 numbers.
The  internal clock value is increased based on the spell's cost used

This system would work like this: 

The Clock starts with the value of 1, when a spell is used it's value increases with the Spell's ap cost.
Like the clock Created by the Xelor God, that after some time was corrupted by rushu, it has 12 values, each one represents one month of the year. Like a real clock, and a real calendar, when the value pass from 12, the clock restarts from 1 and beggins the counting again up to 12. 

I believe that having a internal clock would solve the problem for those who don't want to use the Dial in their builds, it's easy to use them having to manage the Hour Cell? it depends, I still believe that both are equal skill dependent, but because this system just works with spell values it's hard to control than the dial, because of the passive dial master.

We still need a way to transfer that Clock value into Wp. 
And in that part I don't know how to do it, we could make that when we convert Wp into Ap we transfers the value for our Wp bar, or let the restriction of 2 turns

But we can discuss that, first tell me what you thinks about this, tell me if the hour cell system would be broken, if the cap is enough, if the internal clock system is okay or op, if we should only have the internal clock system because we are time wizards and we deserve it tongue Tell me you opinion. Again I reinforce that the purpose of this thread is not to implement MY ideas, but to try to find a better mechanic for the Wp regen, that's why I thanks everyone who commented so far and would apreciate if we could continue presenting and polishing ideas, thank for reading.



Conclusion

So that's it, those are the reasons and changes I wanted to talk with you guys, I really hope that you guys liked it, or if you don't, you tell me why.
I have to say now that I know those things aren't in the perfect form, and may need adjusts, but every diamond needs polishing, and having those interesting effects and different possibilites is what make us Xelor's players, creative people who always wants to find new ways through time  and different playstyles that we build and interact, not something that force us to play in only one way.

I also have an Idea about buffing the Ap giving role, wich envolves sacrificing Wp to buff your allies Ap, but this is a topic for another moment, thanks everyone who read so far, I hope you have a fantastic day and God bless you. 

please, give me your opinion in coments, I want to know that you guys think not just about the concepts, but about the wp regen mechanic. and read the updates.

 

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Score : 10892

Hi!
You have quite fresh and interesting ideas. Memory passive still fails because Removes half of max MP (rounded up) BUT always downward MP, not rounded up.
You can easy test it, 3 MP with memory passive should be rounded to 2 MP but it always 1 MP lol. 

I like your idea of ​​providing a larger WP cap in battle, but not breaking your legs, looks attractive, considering that you still need to restore these WPs, which will slow you down a little in the first 2-3 turns.
And I especially liked the second idea of ​​WP regeneration, which is to make sense in removing the AP, which always needs additional motivation, no matter how strange it sounds. we have already said a hundred times that the willpower of enemies grows fast enough and our theoretical (we can remove 12 AP) does not work in practice. and does not work when we have an alternative to deal more damage.
therefore, it would be possible to change any passive(assimilation passive @[email protected]) for the provision of the reserve of the AP, which we have removed. And when Xelor needed WP regeneration in the current turn, he would use this reserve, but he would receive WP. on the other hand, it is too easy to remove 1 AP from 5 mobs in the first turn and restore 5 WP at once. If we introduce this system for gameplay, taking into account the preservation of the current one (all AP that are not used become WP), but the reserve of removed AP must be limited or the transformation possibilities should be limited.
The reserve can be limited so that it only takes into account 6 removed AP max. 
And every 3 removed AP from the reserve can only become 1 WP. So we already need to remove 6 AP to get 2 WP.
Getting 2 WP this turn isn't disastrous given that you'll need to invest in removing AP build and  taking into account the current consumption of WP at Xelor, this will be balanced.
  p.s. I play everything with Memory because the 6 WP bonus is quite attractive, although it breaks my legs more than what is written in the description of the passive. But providing a cap is also an interesting option. If you have 12 WP, but in battle you will be able to regenerate them up to 18 WP (+6 WP to cap). We don't get these WP right away and we still need to regenerate them, which already balances this.

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Score : 4592

I think the removed MP is rounded up, not hthe remaining MP

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Concept one is alright, but concept two is intimately tied to the water tree which creates imbalanced incentive to take water branch as part of your deck.

If you look at other classes, the WP regeneration is detached from the elemental spells. I agree that the regeneration mechanism only makes sense for Fogger, as it is a limiter on his most useful and powerful spells, while it doesn't make sense of masq and xelor. Even masq has no other passive to regain WP. But granted, a 4 cell critical % and resistance buff is very powerful (Psychotic and classic mask). And the Masq also creates more WP with his clone.

Xelor at least has 2 more other than Time Mage, but Time Mage itself is very boring and counterintuitive to WP as a resource. Rather, either Transpositions should give WP after sufficient stacks without need for Course of Time as a passive (which active spells like gear and against the clock can provide without needing to take elemental spells) or it should make use of the Dial some way.

However your concept one might be too powerful if the Xelor hugs the 10-12 hour cell. an alternative may be every end of an Even turn, give +WP of a small number if Xelor is on the Current Hour. This reduces abuse from Clockmaking.

My preferred method however would be active "retrieval" of WP. something like every time the Xelor moves between  hours, the Dial gains a stack. When the Dial is destroyed by an ally or self, regain WP = half the stack amount. This fully detaches from need of any active, elemental  or passive spell. At the very least it's more interesting than a +1WP at the end of the turn


​​​​​​

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Score : 9752

WHile creative, your ideas tie the Xelor to Water branch and the Dial. My build doesn't need the dial at all if not for emergencies, what am I supposed to do? Put the dial in a corner? Unless of course the marker for hours in our statuds remains even without the dial, so it would actualy be a neat idea then, to use the hours to generate more or less WP. Especialy since starting with Distortion + Devotion puts you right on the XI hour, so it's not like you will regenerate 12 already, you will need to pretty much spend 12 WP to get back to the full regeneration.

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Score : 961

 Granthese You are a genius, how couldn't I think about that.

The Xelor could have an intrinsic clock that is always present in the game, like a buff, let's think about this: 

If the Xelor doesn't have  the Dial in game, the Xelor has an internal clock that moves while his spells are used, for example, a low cost spell like Slow down increases the clock's timer just a little, while the high cost spells move it more, it can be increased up to twelve, if the clock pass twelve them restart the timer, like when real clocks do after 12am. If the dial is destroyed, the Clock value is equal to the last position of the hour cell

So a rotation Could be: 1 -> 3 -> 6 -> 8 -> 10 -> 12...
OR: 1 -> 5 -> 10 ->12 -> 2 -> 6 etc...

So to summarize

If the Xelor doesn't have Dial in game he has a Internal Clock.
The clock has 12 numbers.
The clock value is increased based on the spell cost used

Now what do you think about when he regenrates Wp? in the original concept he would regenarate the value after two turns, do you think we should keep it for when he doesn't have the dial in game too? If not we could do like the second concept: Where he can transfers the clock value to the Wp bar after using the spell to convert Wp into Ap.

What do you think?
 

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Score : 4592
9Nectum9#1864|2021-12-04 16:51:32
are you 100% sure of your words? there is no mention of what you are saying in the description. it talks about 

Removes half of max MP (rounded up)
if I have 3 MP it should be 2 if rounding up
3/2 = 1.5 but we cant have 1.5 MP 
with bug it always 1 MP, not 2 MP 

 

Well it says "Removes half of MP (rounded up)"

If you have 5 MP it removes half (rounded up)
Half of 5 is 2.5, rounded up to 3, so it removes 3, leaving you with 2
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Score : 10892

agree. not entirely accurate description, can be interpreted differently smile
but we are not here for this, but to discuss ideas.
what do you think of these ideas from xXDarkTurboXx#9686 ?
 

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Score : 12265

I like the concept behind the current regen system but it is so weird at the same time. I mean, you use Wakfu Points to increase your damage, but at the same time you are forced to lower your DPT on the next turns by leaving unused APs so you can get your WP back? and I'm like:


(from a Damager perspective) Then what's the point of being able to cast Devotion to throw an additional Dust if on the next turns I'll have to eventually give up on 4 APs to recover the cost of the spell. I understand that by using WPs you are able to do some crazy plays and destroy an enemy if you want but considering that at some point you'll have to go through a "rest" phase... It just isn't worth it and many Xelors have realized that at this point. 

What I think the current system could use is more interaction with the APs and the Dial. On that, I agree with the 1st idea because the Dial then becomes a much more valuable mechanism regardless if you use it or not (like Deja Vu builds) and it is a good element to focus on considering that this is the Core spell of the class. 

About the 2nd idea, I do like it because you have to manipulate the target's APs for it to work (something that represents the class). If we take a look to other reworked classes, the WP Regeneration mechanics is always tied to the class' concept:
  • Sacriers get WP when they receive damage
  • Fecas get WP when a Shield or a Glyph trigger
  • Rogues get WP when a bomb explodes
  • Elios use WP to boost their attacks and regenerate them when they are Calm or, iirc, when a Portal is destroyed

But, as Thothus said, it would be a mechanic tied to a specific branch (water) which wouldn't be a good idea since it would force you to put either Desynchronization, Slowdown or Hammhour into you Deck. It could work but Devs would then have to add new Active spells that could remove AP from the target, allow Devotion to steal AP when cast on an Enemy or just give the other branches AP Removal effects. But even so, as a Damage Dealer you'd have to balance Damage AND Support (AP Steals) to regen your WP consistently which would be tricky to do and might even lower your DPT, eventually you'll need to avoid dealing damage and focus on removing AP (assuming that you have a good amount of Willpower) which would generate an issue similar to the current situation.

I think another thing that needs to be re-considered before reworking the WP regen is the spell costs. Maybe if the WP cost of some spells was lowered and replaced with a MP cost, then the WP consumption of the class wouldn't hurt too much?. It depends on the build but I don't see many Xelors using all of their MPs every turn, why not replace some WP costs with MP?

Regardless, I'd rather have a steady WP regeneration mechanic than having to avoid casting spells.

 
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Score : 3898

Id absolutely love for Tempus Fugit to cast from MP rather than WP. While at least the remaining four WP costing spells devotion, distortion, sinistro time theft are used for adjusting the current hour without affecting your plans too much, as a damage spell Tempus Fugit actively moves current hour OFF you, move you OFF the dial, and is just costly in general.

Make it cast from MP, let Xelors do a Suspension-Tempus Fugit-Suspension turn for 12AP well spent on air damage please, Underhand has bad range and bad damage. It's sufficiently balanced where as long as you undervalue MP too much you will fail to be able to cast it

Back on WP regeneration: what about converting remaining MP to WP as well? Movement across time aren't just about your upper limbs, but also your lower limbs. in fact, replace premonition with this while we're at it: Costs 2WP (balancer and lets current hour be further manipulated), removes half remaining MP and grants WP on target  = value removed, halfed again if casted on allies. Makes Xelor a WP supporter after Ecaflip and Masqueraider rather than a flimsy armour supporter and lets Xelo regenerate WP mid turn rather than end of the turn

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Score : 961

First I want to thanks everyone who taked some time to comment here, I'm really happy to see that there are more people who are interested in some changes to the Wp regen mechanic.

Reading the comments that people said so far helped me to see some mistakes that I commited while thinking in those systems, I'm really interested in keep updating this, until we can achieve some perfection, or at least, a fun and easy to balance mechanic.

I also want to  thanks specifically the people that helped me with feedback so far.
From here I will include in the post as an update. And name the people who helped while I describe why the changes, so no one will think that I get to this conclusions alone.

Second Concept Update

Although this concept looks pretty theme based(That's was it's my favorite), as pointed by Bluhen#6777, it has serious Problems.
 Bluhen#6777 , cody5#2705 , 9Nectum9#1864 , Granthese#6501 and Thothus#6662 , pointed that it's too near of just one branch,  my mistake here is that I  disconsidered  that some people doesn't play with water branch, even if Ap removal is one of the main elements that makes the class unique(Not the capability to remove but the constancy that the class can do it), making a main mechanic based on that would be unfair, and disrespectful, with those who are used to play the class with out the water branch, that said, this mechanic goes against the main concept of this thread, that is giving more freedom to the player. Implementing this would entail more changes for every other branches, and that's not what this thread is about, so I will stop talking about it for now and focus on another concept.

First Concept

To my surprise this concept was the most liked , it doesn't mean it's good, but it means that maybe we can  focus on polishing it to a point where everyone feels Ok to play with. Like the second one, those people:  Bluhen#6777 , cody5#2705 , 9Nectum9#1864 , Granthese#6501 and Thothus#6662 pointed problems that it may have, and some stated that it would be too broken.

   cody5#2705 and   Thothus#6662

made the following comments:

  cody5#2705 

"Using the current hour as regen is way too overpowered, since it's easy to control current hour." 
//

Thothus#6662

"However your concept one might be too powerful if the Xelor hugs the 10-12 hour cell. an alternative may be every end of an Even turn, give +WP of a small number if Xelor is on the Current Hour. This reduces abuse from Clockmaking."
//

Thotus gave a suggestion trying to solve this problem, but before entering in what could be changed I want to talk why I don't believe having this system would be too powerfull, note that I'm not invalidating they statements, they have more experience than I, so I'm just showing my points so they can enlight me.

The Hour Cell moves everytime you use your Wp, what includes moving between your dial's Cells, or using your Wp spells: Distortion(2 Wp), Tempus Fugit (2Wp), devotion(4Wp) And Sinistro(2Wp).

If someone is going to keep the hour Cell always at the time of 12, he will need to give up all the spells above, what to me is a fair trade. You are giving up resources of your character to enchance another area, this is a high risk and high reward system, and I don't think that this would be broken.

Someone can argue that the passive Dial master would turn this mechanic Op.
What a Xelor using Dial Master would lose(Besides of course, the passive slot)?
Erything except for the spells, what this means? That he still would need to give up the high mobility using the dial cells and repositioning his current Hour... The passive's job is to make the Hours Cell management easier, so this shouldn't be a bad thing. Keep the Cell hour always moving is good for the Xelor because he can't steal mp, making the Hour cell moving allows him to keep targets in range to his spells, if a Xelor keeps his Hour Cell at 12 He will have a limited area of attack where he will have the bonus damage, comparing this to a Xelor that is always using the Hour Cell  you can cleary see the difference, the one that is always using it will have better damage. Again, although he can receive a big number of Wp he needs to sacrifice mobility and his positioning, making him an easy  and predictable target.
My point is that, if you do want sit down on the 12 cell you can, but you won't be using 100% of the character.

some specific scenarios:

In PVE your party lock the monsters so The Xelor can sit in the 12 Hour cell forever.
If your team is working for you, of course you should be rewarded with a easy time, that's the same with an Elio attacking the boss from a portal, enemies always in range of cra beacon etc..., your team is helping you, of course it will be easier to play.

In PVP, the Xelor is sitting on 12 cell.
  This means that he can't use the Dial mobility and have to use air spells to travel by the map, he is sacrificing other spells to mobility what in my opinion is fine.

Note:  if this end's being a problem, we can always put a cap in how much every cell gives you Wp based on which Value the Hour's Cell ended. for example: If the Hour cell end being in the numbers 1 or 2, you receive 2Wp back, if if ends being 3 or 4 you receives 3 wp, 5 to 6 you receive 4 Wp, 7-9 you receive 5 wp and 10 to 12 you receive 6. Not exactly like that but you get the ideia. I think that this wouldn't be that hard to balance and still can keep the skill expression and incentives good decision making for the player.

Moving from that,  Granthese#6501 pointed that there are builds that doesn't use the Dial, his build for example, to solve this I started to think in a system that gives  the Xelor 2 different ways to receive Wp(thanks again to Granthese#6501 who tried to solve this problem in his comment and made that Idea). Wich one of them will be active will depend if the Dial is or isn't in game, if the dial is in game  then the second concept, that I talked until now, would be working, the Xelor would receive Wp depending on the Hour Cell's position. But if the Dial isn't in game, things would change.

First Concept part 2

If the Xelor doesn't have Dial in game he has a Internal Clock.
The clock has 12 numbers.
The  internal clock value is increased based on the spell's cost used

This system would work like this: 

The Clock starts with the value of 1, when a spell is used it's value increases with the Spell's ap cost.
Like the clock Created by the Xelor God, that after some time was corrupted by rushu, it has 12 values, each one represents one month of the year. Like a real clock, and a real calendar, when the value pass from 12, the clock restarts from 1 and beggins the counting again up to 12. 

I believe that having a internal clock would solve the problem for those who don't want to use the Dial in their builds, it's easy to use them having to manage the Hour Cell? it depends, I still believe that both are equal skill dependent, but because this system just works with spell values it's hard to control than the dial, because of the passive dial master.

We still need a way to transfer that Clock value into Wp. 
And in that part I don't know how to do it, we could make that when we convert Wp into Ap we transfers the value for our Wp bar, or let the restriction of 2 turns.

But we can discuss that, first tell me what you thinks about this, tell me if the hour cell system would be broken, if the cap is enough, if the internal clock system is okay or op, if we should only have the internal clock system because we are time wizards and we deserve it tongue Tell me you opinion. Again I reinforce that the purpose of this thread is not to implement MY ideas, but to try to find a better mechanic for the Wp regen, that's why I thanks everyone who commented so far and would apreciate if we could continue presenting and polishing ideas, thank for reading.

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Score : 700

The Xelor actually has a state in the top right hand corner showing the "current hour".
(thanks to bluhen's post for the image)



This value doesn't matter until you actually spend WP on hour cells to alter this value. Your internal clock idea is basically this state, except it continues to be affected by WP even without dial.

I'm not sure if the current hour changes normally upon WP use and is "reset" to 12 upon summon of the dial, or the current hour stays at 12 even with WP costs until the dial is summoned

In fact, Nectum has complained about this before, and a simple quality of life change will be to add this number next to the HP bar as well

(thanks to Nectum for the image)



I do think there's worth in exploring this, for example, like you said, the AP->WP conversion is fine, but +1WP regen at the end of the turn is definitely boring and a bad "compensation" for the high WP consumption on a turn to turn basis, and how current hour can factor into WP regeneration is creatively very broad
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Score : 9752

I think we can still work around this idea, such as maybe not giving the Xelor the same flat number of the hour, but BASED on it anyway, such as perhaps if the hour is even or odd the Xelor gets more or less WP. And if you stop at 12, 3, 6 and 9 it could reward you with a better value for hitting a perfect quarter of an hour, or just 6 and 12. Here's an idea:
New Passive: Divine Clock - Turns off 1WP at the end of the turn and leftover AP.

  • End your turn at 12 or 6 hours: gains 6WP
  • End your turn at Odd hours: Gains 2WP
  • End your turn at Even hours: Gains 4WP

Because while this current WP can feel clunky.... I already got used to it so I wouldn't mind keeping it xD
Remember, the spell Hand is a great way to not end your turn with leftover AP without crippling your DPT, if you know when to use it as a finishing move.
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Score : 10892

GUYS
first of all, let's not forget 2 facts. we still depend on fire in the current system to be effective as a damage dealer (distortion spell). And Xelor was not dependent on water before revamp(!), but its regeneration included removing AP by Xelor!!!
Dependence on water does not differ in any way from dependence on fire, BUT it is better because we include the removing AP in our identity and just below I explain how you can avoid dependence on water (spoiler introduce two systems).

Unfortunately, I did not have a screen of everything that was included in the WP regeneration before the revamp


, but I remember for sure that in addition to removing AP, if Xelor ends a turn in the current hour, it gets more points for the this state, and if there are 100 points, then Xelor gets 1 WP.
Once again, I can very vaguely make a mistake in the numbers, if Xelor ended his turn in a regular dial cell, he got 10 points, if he finished in the cell of the current hour, then 25 points, if he removed the AP, then he also received points, which, upon reaching 100, turned into 1 WP. if there were any other conditions, but WP was rarely our problem, it was always possible to remove AP from enemies in order to speed up WP regeneration.

I like the idea of ​​returning water to identity, only because it includes removing the AP in the identity. I said two more things about this:
-- either the removal of action points for regeneration should be combined with the current WP recovery system, but then the reserve, which takes into account the number of removed action points, should be limited.
- either the removal of the AP should be combined with something else and not be the main one.
this way we don't have a dependency on water like we didn't before revamp, but we can turn to water to replenish WP.

I repeat. before the revamp, removing AP affected on WP recovery.
an idea with a reserve that will take into account how many AP we removed in the current turn and will allow us to use this number to get WP still looks very interesting.
 
xXDarkTurboXx#9686|2021-12-06 04:20:58
Implementing this would entail more changes for every other branches, and that's not what this thread is about, so I will stop talking about it for now and focus on another concept.

 


The solution is, my dear friend, that this concept should not be taken as a basic concept, but its introduction as something that can be combined will greatly improve the role of removing action points. And the removal of action points was taken into account before the revamp to restore WP, but did not give us the opportunity to transform action points directly into WP, because the removed action points turned into points, which in total with other actions gave us 1 WP (with regard to other actions, I wrote, that it was taken into account where Xelor ends its turn in the current hour or not, as well as there could be something else, unfortunately I do not have a screen).

Thank you  xXDarkTurboXx#9686  for this topic.
 
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Score : 9752

I would like to disagree that Xelor relies on Fire. On the long run Distortion is not the spell you can just use every turn as you will quickly run out of WP. And JUST because the best gimmick is Hand's "AP refund", its useless on a bossfight, making Hand literaly no different than Suspension and Clock (the later actualy having the advantage of bypassing armour and being able to increase its damage to 10-40% with Shriveling and a DISGUSTINGLY CHEAP sublimation called Ruin.). In fact, its perfectly viable to keep a high damage output and low WP spendage by ditching Fire and going on Air/Water as well. Maximizing the use of Cog and Shriveling.

With the basic math, Distortion is pretty much around 1/2 of the damage of Hand on lv 215 (Hand = 135, Distortion is 17 per AP, so 17 x 5 = 85, hand of 135 being between 60 to 70 to keep the numbers rounded up). Taking into account some really BRUTE spells in a turn where I can burn a lot of WP and distortion's AP cost is down to zero, I can get the Xelor with 15 AP and use something like Suspension and Hand and end up with three shots of ~140 and one shot of ~200, which is great, but took pretty much 3 turns of build up for that, while ditching Distortion I can get myself 15AP every odd turn with Devotion and use the Water and Air spells for pure, direct damage that will be way more repeatable.

TLDR: Xelor's fire spells pack a punch but waste too much "ammo". An Air/Water branch is more cost-efficient and less "burst" in favour of continuous damage. Plus Water Branch is pretty much the "screw your armour!" style that can be really good in PVP and bosses that pack on armour like Tortumult.

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