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Plea for Xelor

By 5135809#5859 - MEMBER - September 20, 2021, 22:03:12

Here i will discuss some problems with  current Xelor class ,my opinions and ideas.This is my personal opinion so i hope i won't offend anyone who like new mechanic or developer ,i realy like xelor and think it can bee so much more.


FIRE
in my opinion fire currently doesn't do anything concrete and its efects are all over the place.
I know it's main purpose to deal damage  but it's plain.in my opinion I think fire suffer the most in this revamp.
so my idea is to turn it in damage with on kill gain effect and some combo potential.


Disruption and Dust
Disruption doesn't have any effect and Dusts effect is underwhelming.
so give them some on kill gain .like Disruption gain wakfu on kill(2wp) or Dust giving you temporary damage bust for turn or two if  played last .
Disruption give some different aoe (zone..),does really need to be cast in a straight line ?
give some love to those two ability they look like you forgot that you need two more fire ability and you slap first thing that come to mind.


Dark bolt
I like it's concept but I would change it to fit new style of fire.
reduced the price and maybe damage ,and whenever you kill with it it gain rebound for duration of fight(reboun still increase damage but for less 10-20 % maybe i am not sure )
this would make this ability situation but very powerful when needed.

Distortion
this is very good ability already. so I don't think anything need change,but cold be changed to fit current style.

Hand
I based everything on this so it does not need change.


Combo potential
in the beginning I was talking about some combo potential and i think passiv are best to do that .
I think the passive abilities need to give us some new options or strengthen current one .

!!!!not all passiv need to have a drawback!!!

like  when you cast fire ability on a target it will activate Underhand , Sandglas or shorten time until Clock is activated.


WATER
in my opinion water is in good position and only need some minor changes .
it is focused on AP removal and delay damage.

Clock
increase price but give it some range.I personaly like this ability but it's hard to set up xelor is not for close range .
maybe make her range scale with price(2r -1wp,   3r-2wp ,4r-3wp....).

and for passive add something to intreract with ap removal and dalay damage .
like each time whean you remove ap increase damage done by Clock and Sandglass.

AIR
air is currently in veird position some ability are ok and other dont have any sense.
biget problem is that with old one you have 2-3 ways of breaking lock in same turn,but now 1 and it has 2 turn cooldown.

Underhand and Tempus Fugit 
they are ok ,but underhand need some way of aktivation in same turn.
Tempus Fugit is more designed to be used with cog or team fight in some cases but is coslty and restricted.

Paradox 
still have some uses with cog and decent damage.
Symetry
It is very inconvenient to use it ,and it is very situational ability.
it is beter to simply add back telepor.

Suspension
for me this ability is ok ,good damage but nothing more .
to make this ability more usefull i would give it two option if cast on enemy stay the same,but if cast on empty cell teleport caster to it and deal damage around place where caster was.
if you turn this ability in teleportation I would turn symmetry in some form of switch ability to exchange place with enemy to position them for aoe ,or with ally to position them  (give it 1 use per turn).

Aktive spell

Devotion
easy to use, but to underwhelming for it cost and restriction 

Sinistro
I don't know what you tried to do with him .
if you want him to be a support then do it properly.

Permonition
I don't know what was wrong with previous one so you change it ,but fore me it was ok not too strong nor too week.

Gears
???no idea.

PASSIV
I don't even want to start on them.
half are usles or don't even look like they are made for xelor.
they are some good one but most not so much.

and one more important thing !!!passive dont need drawback to be balance!!!!


SUMMARY

Xelor is class that is focused on damage ,positioning and preventing opponent from doing anything.
problem 
damage is average.
positioning is too convoluted and impractical.
AP removal is still underwhelming but some what better.

I know that creating something unique and fun is hard .
i am not game developer but even I know that  making it balace is even harder to do.
I don't want to sound like I hate what you did but Xelor is my favourite class ,and class that i started game.
you did many good revorks and i hope that you will give this one more go .
i hope my idea helped a litle bit and i hope other will tell they in comments.

PS.
sorry for any grammatical errors.
 
4 -3
Reactions 40
Score : 9372

While I personaly find your suggestions bloating Xelor a little to much with situational gimmicks, fair reminder that tomorrow's update brought a lot of changes too.
Clock and Underhand were revamped with Update 1.73 (avaible tomorrow) and improved MUCH better.

  • Clock now have an actual range (minimun 1-3, modifiable), costs 5AP and gives the enemy a damage immediatly at the start of their turn, damage equal to Hand/Suspension, however, everytime you regen a total of 12WP, the next time you use Clock, it deals 2x the damage
  • Underhand was changed to a straight line, and now it immediatly teleport the target 2 cells ahead, if such cell is occupied by a non-stabilized object, they swap. (very good to combo with Cog)

On further note, Paradox had it's straight line limitation removed, you can cast it in any direction you want.

Passives
  • Dial Master: Revamped to now move the bonus Hour Cell only when the Xelor is standing on any Hour Cell. Dial's cooldown reduced by 2.
  • Combat Mage: +50 res bonus added.
  • Shriveling: +10% Indirect Damage added.
  • Portent: +10% Distance Damage added.
3 -1
Score : 9470

somewhat messy analysis. 
but yes, as noted above, the developers listened to many aspects that we wrote about on the forum. 
we are very excited to see these changes and we want Xelor's identity to be more palpable.many spells before revamp used to change their effect depending on tick and tock and this was an interesting concept.
I don’t like the simplification of the class, I want the game not to think I’m stupid and to naturally reward my mental effort. if I use 110% of my mental energy, I expect to get 110% of the result. But in practice, the new Xelor does not reward your game, it puts you in the "do maximum damage" framework, otherwise you will not be taken on the team.
this is bad because in the past Xelor could play through the Sinistro build. Xelor could play as support through the AP buff and the time steal passive that rewarded your gameplay by removing  AP (you restore 5% HP). we had a unique revive.
there is no motivation now play different.
but the developer took a step aside, the Course of time passive offers a new gameplay.
I'm still missing something special. I miss tick/tock in identity
mechanisms gameplay also needs attention
some passives and spells are weird. Sinistro buffs enemies. Have you met a class in the game that helps enemies? 
in short, I think over time people will notice how much Xelor is about damage now and how less he is about anything special related to his other roles.
and Siu made most of the changes we asked for, like Clock or Dial master passive. 
I hope the polishing of the Xelor class will continue. 

6 -2
Score : 9372

I do feel like new Xelor, especialy with some passive builds (like mid-range rear) will reward, most importantly, restraint and positioning.
Take my build for example, I go with Knowledge of the Past, Violent Omens and Deja Vu, essentialy reducing my WP, Range and MP, but giving me a ton of buffs in the process, so I can't just burn my WP every turn or teleport myself somewhere dangerous (since Symmetry is my best friend to get easy access to enemy's rear) and thus, I have to carefuly think what to do, and mostly aim for an enemy I can finish with Hand so I can keep my WP high.

This build is somewhat similar to a Sram if you think of Simmetry as the equivalent of Willy. But I don't have the luxury of becoming invisible or recovering a lot of health. Although getting free 50 res with Combat Mage made me the happiest Xelor ever.

0 -4
Score : 721

Nectum did a very good point here, not just him, but a lot of people said the same at the beginning

I will try to talk a little more about this.

  I think that this rework is the oposite of power creep, but at it's extreme, instead of making things more overload, they made things so basic that feels empty. 
Take the new clock for example, is a lot better than the previous one, but still is purely relationed with damage. 

Keep that in mind, I will go back later.

It may be strange, to some people, criticize  limitations when we are speaking of a playable character, especially in a muntiplayer game, character have to be limitations so the game can be balance, and that's true. But, there are points we have to consider when implementing them, i'm not a game design, but I already played a lot of multiplayer games in my life, because of that I believe that after some time you can recognize when things are strange and when things are more normal,  giving solid points that can be considered. 

When implementing limitations to a character people have to be extremely cautions, it's true that a character have to be balance(Or easy to balance), but is extremely bad if thoose limitations, no matter why they are here, doesn't let the characther be fun. "But what exactly are you talking abou? fun is relevant, right?" Yes that's true, but unfortunately there are things that will make your character less attractive to play, and one of them is excess of limitations, and I will explain why.


What's make  a character interesting to play? With no doubt it's his singularity, no matter wich game you are playing, people always aim to character that can make they feel especial, but that's not what we are talking about so let's go to the second reson: Playstyle.

 Singularity is probably the reason you pick a character, if you have a lot of generic characters you probably would pick one and forget about the rest, that's obviously not the case with wakfu, but what makes someone keep playing with a character? Yes, it's the playstyle, if you have a character that have only on way to be played, you will keep tired of it someday, no mater how fun the character it will be one day you will not be in the mood to play with him, because is to repetitive.
"Ok, you are talking a lot, what does it has to be with limitation?"
Everything.

Think like this, what's easier to be balance, a character that does one simple thing, or a character that can do 3 different things? the answer is easy right?
Right now Xelor is a slave of it's limitations, because they don't let him do anything else.
He can't do anything with consistence, anything, most of his passives come with some punishment for taking it, there are point where I look into some passive and think "Maybe this could work" then I see the conterpart and "No it can not" are you understanding? because the character has so much limitations in it's design, every idea out of the box we have, probably will not work.
"But this happen with every character, you can just play the way the dev made the char"
No. Take the old Xelor for a minute, old Xelor has one of the worts kits in the game, not because it was bad, but because it was old, but let's take a look on it's design and see the limitations the character had.

What the new Xelor does good when compared?
"Rollback" isn't a passive anymore
Dial isn't a spell anymore
Has better damage
His kit is modern


What the old Xelor does better than the new?
His kit synergized within itself
his passives didn't hold him from doing different things
The player had more control of it's spells
Thick and Tock wasn't restrictive


"Well you said that they have the same amount of things, the new can't be so bad, can it?"
Yes, it can.

look at  3 characteristics the old one had:
Thick and Tock wasn't restrictive
His kit synergized within itself
his passives didn't hold him from doing different things



Thoose  three things makes the old one more fun than the new

his passives didn't hold him from doing different things: This is pretty self explanatory,  having a passive that don't give you a drawnback let's you do more things. 
Take for example Shriveling, why you can't do damage and steal Ap? You don't know right? me neither, the old one had temporal waves, wich never needed to nerf any status.
Why Sinistros buffs enemys? No I don't know why.
 Slowdown of Time doesn't let you use spells out of the dial, because...(Thats ridiculous) There is no reason for that, the drawback just exists, with no explanations, and remember  that those passives aren't just bonus, they are meant to change your playstyle but instead they lock you in a very specific way of playing the game, is almost like the Xelor is playing against you.
You don't believe me? Look that:
Clockmaking: Debuff for playing out of hour cell
Shriveling: You can't steal Ap anymore
Momentary Permutation: Forces you to switch with your dial each turn.
Tick/Tock: Forces you to not play damage or not play Ap steal in determined turns.

Can you see what I'm saying? Those limitations literally forces you to play in one way if you take them for the entirely fight, tick/tock doesn't even let you do damage/steal Ap properly if the solar system's planets aren't aligned when you are using them, you have to do the E X A C T L Y  thing to use the passive. Keep that in mind that I will come back later.



His kit synergized within itself: Because he had more communication between spells you could do more than the spell's text, when using the correct combinations, it made the character has a extremely variety of uses for each spell resulting in a ton of fun combos you could do.
Take Hand for example, old Hand could be used in 2 different ways(Not counting it's own), it always had the objective of doing damage, but look at that:

Because Hand had two effects, depending wich state you were, you could play the round in two different ways.
in Tick, you could use aging to increase your damage on foes, while in Tock you could use water spells to steal Ap from your enemys and them burn temporal freeze to increase it's damage. 
"What? Are you crazy? you are just defending a old character that you are attached, nowdays hand still is about damage like in the past your idiot."
Right, Right, but remember what I said Early? "you could play the round in two different ways."
In the end Hand is about damage, but what you did in the round not, in Tick turn you played offensive, trying to kill your opponent, while in Tock turn you focused on taking Ap from your enemys, that's 2 different playstyles in the character that this freedom provided.

There are some people that like to say things like: "Synergy restricts the spell's uses"
Thats a lie huh. 99% of old Xelor could be used on it's on, the thing is that the kit was extremely old, but Hand could be used on it's own, and so do the majority of others spells, you synergized to have a extra effect that suites you in that moment. Time control is probably the only spell in the entirely Kit that was useless on it's own.


Thick and Tock wasn't restrictive: Here I hope you will understand how poorly the new one deals with restrictions. Siu said that old tick and tock restricted the player because it altered spells effects. angel He cleary was joking about it because it's exaclty what he did with the new one.

Tick and Tock never was a restrictive mechanic, they were states that altered your playstyle Naturaly. You didn't get a damage debuffer because was in tock, neither a FoW debuffer because was in tick, instead all your spells would do USEFUL different things. For example, hand would not consume initiative in tock turns, instead it would burn temporal freeze, temporal freeze could be stacked in foes with water spells, water spells steals Ap and apply temporal freeze. Now you can see the communication with the spells, you didn't changed your playstaly because the old one gets obsoleto, hand will do it same base damage as always,  instead using it on it's own, steal ap from your foes with water spells to burn temporal freeze and do more damage. While in thick, intead of stealing ap you could just focus everything in your enemys and give Ap to you allies. Your water spells are not invalidated by a state, instead, they have a different ways to be played.
The new tick and tock instead, destroys your spells if they are not aligned with your passive, it directs debuff them, make them almost BAD to be used, this  not changes your playstyle, this  FORCES you to take a different playstyle. And the most obvious reason: You could alternate between states with WP.

But why I am talking about this in a clock change: That apparently  is a good change?

My point is, new clock isn't a good spell either. It's may be fun in the first months, but it still followers the same formula, is a damage spell, that can be only be played in one way to be usefull, the most different thing is that you can choose how much damage you will do based on the amount of Wp you regenerates, but thats not a different playstyle, is just a excuse to new tick/tock and the new Wp regeneration mechanic to exists, this could be different, instead of making the player have to skip turns, it could keep stealed Ap from enemys though, THIS WOULD ENCOURAGE A DIFFERENT PLAYSTYLE in the previous round.

And to conclude, most of old Xelor's flaws was dues it's outdated kit, not because the ideas were bad, hand taking initiative in 2020 is a great example, if the character was mordenized without being killed in the process we would have a extremely good and fun character with different playstyles. 
New one just does one thing, DAMAGE, Damage and... damage.


 


 

7 -1
Score : 9470

Thanks for your time, yes.
I can agree with everything that is written in this post. Tick Tock never gave me a sense of limitation. And many people lied, even during beta testing, saying they liked everything. The problem with these people is that they are afraid of nerf damage, so they keep quiet so that the developers think that the class is doing well. yes, for many players there is a simple logic "more damage = good" but many lied that synergy would limit. they could use hand without synergy before the revamp, after the revamp all synergy disappeared and this is not very good.
Xelor is not only damage. 
It was a huge number of possibilities (in the role of support and positioning)  that a person had to learn to use. for example, the synergy of precise teleportation and Sinistro
.


How often do you see Xelor teleport enemies to Sinistro after revamp? Zero. 

What is sinistro doing now? gives 1 AP to the enemy and attacks a little. many Xelor played through sinistro and it was not free. They were collecting items for control and it was always uncommon to see how one class can play so differently.
The same is about synergy. If you look at the expectations of the players, no one asked to remove the synergy. On the contrary, there were many ideas for new synergies depending on Tick and Tock, but an oversimplification was made. Tick Tock is now just a meme, this buff and debuff does not change the gameplay in any way, but simply limits you.
Before the revamp, we wrote that the synergy to remove the initiative was outdated, but everyone liked the temporal freeze synergy.
We could play through Excess relic sublimation using an air bomb,

but now all Xelor are exactly the same, they all use on Ancestral Energy relic sublimation. What I'm trying to point out is that the new Xelor does not have the harmonious tools to be a useful positioner or provide support. Old Xelor could simultaneously do small damage and buff allies with 5 AP to two or three allies if they were on the dial and you had a good Rollback.  I always wrote to the chat, " hi guys do not forget to get up every 4 turns on the cells of the dial, I will give you 2 AP". It felt good that my dial was being used for support. We also had a unique revive for support. The Resurrected one would often die because Xelor was not a healer, but that was great tool for our identity. 
Xelor isn't that glassy right now after revamp, but do you know why? Sublimation which were not used suddenly became very relevant for Xelor. I mean Tenacity II (Persistance) If you end up with 6 AP then 60 res to 2 turn. Previously, Xelor could afford to end his turn with 6 AP, but he had to use Save  passive and use save  sublimation (3 slots to sublimate Save) = 6 AP to Save. Three single sublimations were often stopped us use (and considering how many new sublimations were added later) and therefore Xelor did not use Tenacity II (Persistance) coz it was not on the market for a very long time too. 
 if we conclude then
- The new Xelor lacks the depth and the need for its other roles, namely support and positioning. the whole process only works to make Xelor do more damage.
- Xelor mechanisms (Sinistro and Cog) are still weird.
- Xelor has no interesting mechanics as you said they made things so simple that they seem empty.
But what I realized in all these 8 months of frustration is that reflection and honest analysis are not enough to solve obvious problems. we must speak in the language of specific proposals. I think Siu also now understands how we feel, but to make serious changes, you need a clear certainty of what exactly to do, because the God of Time is not on our side, given that they have plans for future patches.
The easiest way to deal with the positioning problem is to make a passive that will affect spells. or allow simple combinations to exist. Suspension on an ally will teleport ally at the current hour. Although this combination will not be able to teleport the enemy ...
Tick and Tock can be removed from passives and return them directly to identity, or you can abandon Tick Tock and introduce a new element of identity, Time Waves. But again, this is how I turn to some ideas without specifics, thereby shifting the responsibility to the developer, who must continue this idea himself.
I don't think they have time for this.
Therefore, we must come up with specific ideas. 
5 0
Score : 2347

 

cody5#2705|2021-09-23 10:24:00
 
xXDarkTurboXx#9686|2021-09-22 22:39:55
 
cody5#2705|2021-09-22 15:00:25
So what would time waves do?



I don't know what it would do, but it probably would  be better than anything we have right now, wich is almost nothing, the closest thing we have right now from a "Identity" to the character is that he has to skip turns to regenarete Wakfu Points.


Well WP management isn't as much of an identity as it is a core mechanic of any class.

If you ask me, the current xelor identity is "precise positioning damage dealer", "indirect damage dealer" and "AP debuffer"

lol, cody. 
Identity is not implied role. Feca is also a damage dealer with much more accurate positioning than Xelor. Don't mislead people. Xelor positioning is not precise . Feca is also a indirect damage dealer. It turns out that they are the same? Judging by your logic. But people are not talking about roles, but about identity. This is what makes the class unique, like the invisibility (sram), etc. Xelor had a Tick/Tock identity element which is now just an optional buff / debuff. People write about this that there is not enough identity elements, in which there is a need due to the fact that  they made things so simple that they seem empty.
5 0
Score : 3727

Sorry, I guess I didn't explain that well, lemme rephrase that.

What I meant to say by "precise positioning" was that one of Xelor's themes, is that his spells and passives are effective at very specific ranges, requiring you to position yourself very precicely to get the most value from your spells.

And his second theme is more accurately "delayed effects", with his:
-sandglass and clock dealing damage outside of your turn
-sinistros applying damage and AP when destroyed or at the stat of your turn
-against the clock moving enemies or allies at the end of their turn
-desynch giving AP at a later turn
-prevention either blocking AP/MP removal on an enemy's turn or giving armour at the beginning of an ally's turn

1 -5
Score : 721

 

cody5#2705|2021-09-23 13:07:11
Sorry, I guess I didn't explain that well, lemme rephrase that.

What I meant to say by "precise positioning" was that one of Xelor's themes, is that his spells and passives are effective at very specific ranges, requiring you to position yourself very precicely to get the most value from your spells.

And his second theme is more accurately "delayed effects", with his:
-sandglass and clock dealing damage outside of your turn
-sinistros applying damage and AP when destroyed or at the stat of your turn
-against the clock moving enemies or allies at the end of their turn
-desynch giving AP at a later turn
-prevention either blocking AP/MP removal on an enemy's turn or giving armour at the beginning of an ally's turn






Just because Xelor positioning spells are harder to do it doesn't mean it's unique, a Panda and Masqueraider can do almost the same thing that Xelor does, it only makes Xelor harder, not unique.

Tick and Tock were a unique feature because no other character had this system.

Is the same with 

ELIOTROPE and his portals, that not only can be used to move, but interacts with Elio's spells.
Note that even his states are tottaly different from Xelor's tick and tock.
 
Hupermage's Light element.

MASQUERAIDERS and his masks

Sadida and Osa summons, that different from Xelor's positioning spells, when compared with each other are totally different things.

Rogue Bombs.

And the list goes on.

Delayed effects are debatable because the class has more than any other, but I'am against the  idea. Let me explain why.

Imagine that we have two characters that can do the same thing, but one of them have stronger spells and their effects procs on the enemy's turn, does it makes the second character unique? I don't believe that.

Just because a spell makes you wait a time before it's activation doesn't mean it's different, it means that you have less control of the spell, the delayed effects aren't doing anything special besides making you wait, any difference they make you do is just because they are inconvenient.
Without delayed Effects the spells would be the same things as other classes.
Sandglass and Clock -> Delayed damage, any other class: Instant damage.
Desynch -> Gives Ap in other ones turn, any other class: Gives Ap instantly.
And I don't play with other classes a lot, but I'm pretty sure that there are tons of delayed effects in the game.

If you took tick/tock of the previous Xelor his spells would be incomplete, they would be spells with out they exclusive effects and Extra possible uses, you wouldn't be able to steal or give Ap, you wouldn't be able to take initiative or burn temporal freeze, etc, they would be bland, they would still be spells with their basic effect, but you wouldn't be able to use them in different ways.
What would happen if you took the Delayed condition from the actual Xelor spells? They would be the same thing but happening at the same time you use, not even the new clock would suffer from that.
  
Previous Xelor had delayed efects too, but me at least never looked at it as unique feature or class identity, because it's not that special, we could also spend resources to activatly them at the same turn.

That's why I don't consider delayed effects a thing strong enough to be a indentity. 
5 0
Score : 3727

I didn't mean xelor's positioning spells, i meant that xelor has to position himself for most of his spells to work.

Also the delayed damage is indirect, which means it ignores armour. He's not the only class with it, but he definetly has the most (just like enutrof and resist removal), that's why i mentioned it, same with AP removal.

0 -2
Score : 409

Xelor for me right now is good at many things, the best at none of them. 

0 0
Score : 2347

 

Pelayus#3584|2021-09-26 07:23:05
Xelor for me right now is good at many things, the best at none of them. 




Xelor not good in his empty identity. 

There used to be a lot of ideas that made the class unique. There were more interactions with the dial (devotion, teleporting any objects to the dial, healing the dial, there was even a spell that did more damage on the cells of the dial, etc.). Dial an important element in Xelor's identity.What happened to it after the revamp? No dial healing, no spells interact directly with the dial, devotion lost all charm, no more teleporting any objects to dial. 
Especially offensive for teleportation. It was there for years and all the previous revamps allowed Xelor to do it, because Xelor is a positioner. It is important for him to carry out accurate positioning, and not just good positioning. 
Many Xelor write that they lack a passive or tools so that we could teleport something closer. Anything that doesn't require you to be at sunset when Neptune and the moon are in line. 
This is very easy to implement. Let the current hour be consumed for this action and Xelor will not be able to use its bonus for damage.
In general, the idea of consuming the current hour can greatly enhance identity and affect positioner roles and support role. 
As a support, Xelor could not only remove about 50 water resists, but also give a huge amount of action points, and there was also a unique revive tool. Did the developers provide any tools for the support of Xelor to be good? 
Great restrictions have been placed on buffing AP. 
This is primarily achieved by the fact that action points are awarded on the next turn and require
1) Minus willpower build(through the spell Desynchronization). many players play with 0 willpower and in order for Xelor to support them he needs less willpower, which is literally against Xelor. So Tack Tick passive, which gives willpower, literally impairs your ability to buff AP for a lot turns. 
2)Neptune should be in line with the moon at sunset, and the constellation Leo should be opposite the Earth. SINISTRO. but in real combat conditions the allies must end their turn next to it and the mobs must not kill it. the cost of sinistro does not justify its use. the last sinistro cost 4 AP because it attacked enemies in a larger area TWO TIMES and remove AP. The new sinistro is just a meme(which buffs enemies).
So my buff AP powers literally play against me, my positioning pales in comparison to what I could do before, there are no interesting elements in my identity,  please tell me what should I be happy about? what should i enjoy? from a lot of damage? haha thanks


.
xXDarkTurboXx#9686
Desynch -> Gives Ap in other ones turn, any other class: Gives Ap instantly.




Hello everyone, Iop gives every turn AP simply because it is Iop without any conditions. He just hits the enemy with a combo and gets AP for yourself and for your allies. his buff AP doesn't even buff enemies (HI SINISTRO)
I don't think too that delayed effects a thing strong enough to be a indentity. 
Most delayed effects Feca activates immediately on the current turn, because it uses a passive. 
I want to ask a developer question, then why are you so worried about the limitations of xelor in its delayed effects, if your Feca has no concept of delayed effects, if it can activate all of them in the current turn? it's just some kind of hypocrisy. Saying that delayed effects are badly activated, and then giving a passive for the Feca so that she can activate them all. The only delayed effect that a Feca cannot activate in the current turn are glyphs, but they do catastrophic damage through armor, although Feca was never about damage. For some reason, Xelor did not receive anything special after the update, but only lost a lot of harmony.

In general, it would be great if Tiсk / Toсk returned to identity or other mechanics. It would be great to get enhancements for the support and positioning role, and also for Sinistro to stop being a meme. It would be great to remove some restrictions, for example, so that Desynchronization does not require you to shoot Xelor in your foot. It would be great to get something unique for identity or to make what is now more harmonious in interaction with each other (hello combinations). 
7 -1
Score : 721

I believe that the devs forced this situation into themselves, I believe that the Wp regeneration system, and the drawbacks on passives are holding Xelor back,  anything that could work on this class are going to be useless because of these mechanics.

Probably the greatest problem with that revamp is that they tried to make a new class, not a modern one. Nothing of these problems would be happening if they were making a new character, because no player would be upset about it.

3 0
Score : 409

Its sad, some old Xelors tried to convince Siu that actual revamp doest fit at all on Xelor roleplay... Even i got banned on beta server (discord) for being "sarcastic" and thats when i quit and stop tryng to help

1 0
Score : 721

 

cody5#2705|2021-09-26 20:50:38
I didn't mean xelor's positioning spells, i meant that xelor has to position himself for most of his spells to work.

Also the delayed damage is indirect, which means it ignores armour. He's not the only class with it, but he definetly has the most (just like enutrof and resist removal), that's why i mentioned it, same with AP removal.



"I didn't mean xelor's positioning spells, i meant that xelor has to position himself for most of his spells to work." I naturaly thought you were talking about positioning.


What? Cody every class on this game has to be good positioned to their spells to work, Xelor is just harder, melee has to be close, ranged has to be far,  this apply for every character.  
It's the same thing I was talking about positioning spells, just because is harder doesn't mean is unique.
Talking about positioning masq and Panda has to do the same, for damage Rogue has to position his bombs and Sram has to position his traps, Cra his beacons. There is nothing special about that. 


"Also the delayed damage is indirect, which means it ignores armour. He's not the only class with it, but he definetly has the most (just like enutrof and resist removal), that's why i mentioned it, same with AP removal."

How does it change my argument about delayed conditioning not being a strong thing to be called an identity??

No one besides Rogue has bombs.
No one besides Eliotrope has his portals.
No one besides Masq has his masks.

Take the delayed condition and nothing will change in the spells besides the time when it activates.

The only thing Xelor has special is his Dial and skiping turns to regenerate Wp. And the last one is debatable.
2 0
Score : 3727

 

xXDarkTurboXx#9686|2021-09-27 03:21:44
 
cody5#2705|2021-09-26 20:50:38
I didn't mean xelor's positioning spells, i meant that xelor has to position himself for most of his spells to work.

Also the delayed damage is indirect, which means it ignores armour. He's not the only class with it, but he definetly has the most (just like enutrof and resist removal), that's why i mentioned it, same with AP removal.




"I didn't mean xelor's positioning spells, i meant that xelor has to position himself for most of his spells to work." I naturaly thought you were talking about positioning.


What? Cody every class on this game has to be good positioned to their spells to work, Xelor is just harder, melee has to be close, ranged has to be far,  this apply for every character.  

 

Yeah but xelor has a lot of spells with high minimum range and low max range and passives that reward you for being at very specific range (usually 3-5) making him kinda unique as a trully mid-range class (i mean technically eliotropes also are mid-range, but they have portals so that doesnt count).
This also plays really well with his dial, as it allows him to adjust his positioning very easily.

And as for "unique WP regen", every class that has recently been reworked has a unique form of WP regen so I don't think it's a really high bar to clear for class uniqueness.
But imo the WP regen does really fit with xelor's time motif: you are borowing time from future turns by converting WP into AP (devotion, time theft) or mobility (dial, fugit), therefore you have to pay back the time you borrowed in a future turn by not spending some AP. Which really synergises with tick and tock allowing you to borrow power from future turns, basically playing 20% of your next turn one turn earlier, which makes it feel like you are distorting time.

And the delayed effects are the reverse, if you play with tick tock, you can cast them on a turn you are weaker, to let them trigger on a turn you are stronger, basically cheating the pendulum (besides bypassing armour).
0 -5
Score : 2347

 

cody5#2705|2021-09-27 14:37:35
 Yeah but xelor has a lot of spells with high minimum range and low max range and passives that reward you for being at very specific range (usually 3-5) making him kinda unique as a trully mid-range class (i mean technically eliotropes also are mid-range, but they have portals so that doesnt count).This also plays really well with his dial, as it allows him to adjust his positioning very easily.

And as for "unique WP regen", every class that has recently been reworked has a unique form of WP regen so I don't think it's a really high bar to clear for class uniqueness.
But imo the WP regen does really fit with xelor's time motif: you are borowing time from future turns by converting WP into AP (devotion, time theft) or mobility (dial, fugit), therefore you have to pay back the time you borrowed in a future turn by not spending some AP. Which really synergises with tick and tock allowing you to borrow power from future turns, basically playing 20% of your next turn one turn earlier, which makes it feel like you are distorting time.

And the delayed effects are the reverse, if you play with tick tock, you can cast them on a turn you are weaker, to let them trigger on a turn you are stronger, basically cheating the pendulum (besides bypassing armour).


cody , this does not make the class unique. what you write about spell range, passive skills, delayed effects that you cannot activate (hello feca who can), etc. it's not about class identity. As for passives, most of them are just buffs and debuffs for more damage and only a few of them offer different gameplay.
we are talking about elements of identity that naturally exist in the class like old Tick/Tock. it feels like you always want to say something, but say the wrong thing because we are talking on a completely another topic. 
rollback fit with xelor's time motif too. and allowed you to have every turn from 3 AP (6 AP with passive) for using AP, new system stealing time  for xelor also an interesting idea, but it has a variable of rapid depletion WP considering that Sinistro consumes wakfu, the main spam damage (distortion) consumes wakfu, tempus fugit consumes wakfu, etc. 
and besides this, as I have already indicated, there are fewer natural interactions with the dial. 
that's why people write that they lack natural elements of identity and some mechanics for support/positioning. 
4 0
Score : 3727

I agree, new xelor has less "innate themes", but on the other hand it has a lot more optional themes in it's passives, which imo is better as it allows for more diferent builds, since you aren't bound to the same mechanics on every build:
Turn alternation: tick tock, tack tick
AP removal: course of time, dark dimension, 
Alternate willpower: shriveling, battle mage
Midrange damage: Violent omens, knowledge of past, deja-vu
Mechanisms: remanance, specialised mechanisms (yeah these kinda suck)

By putting main class specialities in passives, while yes you remove some base flavours from a class, you create multiple "subclasses" by using certain combinations of passives and their combinations., instead of giving players a single powerful mechanic to build around.

PS: Also it looks like all the "core theme spells" are now innate passives or 3rd bar spells, which i really appreciate, instead of mandatory passives like rollback
PPS: No getting free AP from a passive for spamming low cost spells is not a good class theme, rollback was completely op

0 -3
Score : 105

To say a mechanic should be changed simply because you like the way it fits the "theme" better is a terrible argument. Spell descriptions can be rewritten to help satisfy your identity crisis but balance takes priority.

While we making xelor pleas, i'd like to plea that single target xelor doesn't get nerfed. Ty.

0 -6
Score : 2347

you are taking the phrase out of context. what kind of mechanics are you talking about? as Nectum said, everyone is afraid of the damage nerf, so they are silent about the fact that the class is sorely lacking in identity. 
I just explained above that many mechanics which have been removed after revamp follow the same logic "should be changed simply because like this way " 
Reg and many xelors wrote that no dialogue would work if the developers did not give feedback to the players about why this changes.
and when players accept many new ideas, but also ask to improve some aspects (add natural elements of identity, improve positioning and support, improve sinistro), what do you see on the forum? 
 

0 0
Score : 3119

When it first came out players were hopeful to affect the direction of the class, but was told to give feedback on the actual programmed content, not ideas of what they want xelor to be

Players then settled to talk about spell effects (or lack of, e.g. on the fire branch) and passive effects, which very little got through

Players then settled to talk about tweaks like minimum range, maximum range, AP cost and requirements on target, of which very little got through

Players then settled to talk about bugs and features that were unsure to be bugs or features (e.g. Course of Time not triggering on Tempus Fugit or Against the Clock), which were noted, but players didn't know, and 2 months later they got fixed while the players were complaining throughout the period the bugs/features persisted. No mention of what occurred to cause a change in something the programmers specifically designed against originally

The Xelor revamp has been properly released for a while, and I suppose the new way to understand the Xelor is to fulfill existing Time and Space constrictions to optimise their functioning, rather than optimise Time and Space for their functioning. I'd be okay with that if only I don't get punished further with cast limits, summon limits, three spell trees that don't work synergistically even among their own 5 spells, and an artificial ceiling around class design because of the existence of sublimations
 

1 0
Score : 105

 

Infoglas#1636|2021-09-28 10:40:47
you are taking the phrase out of context. what kind of mechanics are you talking about? as Nectum said, everyone is afraid of the damage nerf


I would have to be taking multiple things out of context, and backing arguments by saying what everyone else thinks is also not a great way to go. It sounds like you guys are complaining about a class you havn't really played yet. It doesn't seem like any of you have used assimilation to keep dps up for a 7 turn fight, or double sinistrod  4 dps for sumorse, crab, ashdrag, blightogre, or any of the other encounters where its op. No one is giving any solid examples of xelor being outperformed by other dps or struggling in certain encounters. It's just a lot of whining backed up by bs about xelor identity, lore, or what everyone thinks.
Pelayus#3584|2021-09-25 21:23:05
Xelor for me right now is good at many things, the best at none of them. 



I havn't played all the dps, but I'd bet a xelor is the best dps to lead off with for the majority of encounters.
2 -5
Score : 2347

nice trolling
 it's good that your opinion is single and much more than another opinion

0 0
Score : 721

 

Vilmer#7758|2021-09-29 01:53:44
 
Infoglas#1636|2021-09-28 10:40:47
you are taking the phrase out of context. what kind of mechanics are you talking about? as Nectum said, everyone is afraid of the damage nerf



I would have to be taking multiple things out of context, and backing arguments by saying what everyone else thinks is also not a great way to go. It sounds like you guys are complaining about a class you havn't really played yet. It doesn't seem like any of you have used assimilation to keep dps up for a 7 turn fight, or double sinistrod  4 dps for sumorse, crab, ashdrag, blightogre, or any of the other encounters where its op. No one is giving any solid examples of xelor being outperformed by other dps or struggling in certain encounters. It's just a lot of whining backed up by bs about xelor identity, lore, or what everyone thinks.
Pelayus#3584|2021-09-25 21:23:05
Xelor for me right now is good at many things, the best at none of them. 




I havn't played all the dps, but I'd bet a xelor is the best dps to lead off with for the majority of encounters.

What are you talking about? Since the beggining of the revamp people are talking about spells.

And your argument is terrible, this game isn't just about damage. I will assume that you only saw this thread, because everyone is talking how boring and empty is to play him right now, the last thing people are complaing is about damage, and it would be better if damage was the only problem.

Nobody here cares that much about damage right now, because ankama can add plus 100 damage on hand and the character will be top tier, what people are complaing about is the character being worst(as a character in the game) and less fun to play than a previous version that was outdated.


"To say a mechanic should be changed simply because you like the way it fits the "theme" better is a terrible argument"

Why are you implying that the only argument people are making is about lore?????
Everyone here is talking about gameplay, when we say that the character is generic is because he is boring. When we say he has no identity is because we played the old one and now he feels empty, without content, only work in one way, before people played the character in other ways even in ways that wasn't about damage. 

You are trying to invalidade people's argument by saying a lie, nobody here is upset just because of the lore, even the ones who is defending those changes doesn't says what you said, you are definitively trolling. 
3 0
Score : 2347

this player has already managed to devalue the opinion of the elio players in another topic and has now come to devalue our collective opinion. I was not surprised that this is too fat trolling


  however, our opinion was formed not only after the revamp and more than 6 months have already passed so that we can see how the new xelor feels in the game (spoiler class without identity, which does a lot of damage).
3 0
Score : 105

 

xXDarkTurboXx#9686|2021-09-30 00:19:06

I will assume that you only saw this thread, because everyone is talking how boring and empty is to play him right now, the last thing people are complaing is about damage, and it would be better if damage was the only problem.

 


Nope, I just happened to notice the thread. I'm going to assume that was obvious but you couldn't get through a post without claiming what everyone else thought. I'm not asking this to be rude or belittle you, but is that your main account? I only ask because a geared out 215 xelor and a 125 xelor are likely to have very different experiences. With a lack of wp and passives maybe I would be more inclined to agree with you.
Infoglas#1636|2021-09-30 04:21:21
this player has already managed to devalue the opinion of the elio players in another topic and has now come to devalue our collective opinion. I was not surprised that this is too fat trolling


Relax, my opinion doesn't devalue anyone elses. The person in the elio thread did not even know you couldn't cast through a portal if a mob was on it, I would not refer to them as an elio player.
0 -4
Score : 721

You are missing the entire point of this conversation. I'm talking about identity, you are talking about damage or whatever. Have a nice day.

0 0
Score : 2347
biggrin
Granthese#6501|2021-10-03 11:39:15
You say Xelor have no identity, yet what other class can:
- convert unused AP into WP
- increasingly convert WP into AP
- stack AP theft as delayed damage
- start the game with 12 WPs
- have 5 unique positioning spells (6 if you include the dial)
- summon an object that interact with any source of teleportation (Cog)
- have an attack that repeats on previous targets (Hamm’hour)
- Bypass enemies that move you upon attack (Suspension)



- convert unused AP into WP and increasingly convert WP into AP >>>> Xelor before revamp had Save passive allowing him to save 3 AP and Rollback system, allowing you to get 3-6AP every turn simply because you are Xelor. Can you get 3-6 AP through the thief of time every turn after revamp? No. This new system has an obvious disadvantage and an additional one related to the fact that some passives take away your WP and the using of another identity tool(dial) also requires WP. 
Each class has identity WP regeneration mechanics, this is not a reason to single out someone else's mechanics and say that a class has an identity.
Sacrier generates 2 WP just for taking an enemy hit wink
Xelor also had temporary armor that allowed him to gain AP from enemy attacks, but this was removed due to the rollback system and save passive.
but alas. identity and the mechanics of regeneration WP are not the reason why we should establish the identity of a class.
before the revamp, Xelor regenerated WP simply because you are Xelor., for example, if Xelor removed AP, etc. and at the same time could use the system rollback and save passive. what you say does not directly relate to identity, but refers to the WP regeneration mechanic that each class has.
yes, Xelor can get AP from this mechanic but it doesn't enhance identity if we compare what Xelor could do ( +1AP if you remove 3 AP(old time thief passive), you could buff AP(+3 AP) yourself through a combo on TICK and simultaneously attack the enemy in this combination + get a rollback from rollback system (+3-6AP) and save 3 AP after it  and at the same time regenerate WP.).
new system lacks something special, there would be much more identity if the new system interacted with spells. for example teleportation or push depending  to the number of charges that Time Theft was stacked. 
this would solve several problems at once and make the positioning of Xelor more accurate.
...
have 5 unique positioning spells (6 if you include the dial)
I almost died when you wrote this. 
let's go back to the Nectum topic and remember what unique positioning tools Xelor had before revamp. This is in no way comparable to what is now in order to say that this is about identity XD Xelor had an Underhand for precise teleportation and customizable push. and if you are seriously writing this despite all the analysis that others have done, then I see no reason to pay attention to your messages.
Thothus#6662  wrote a great post, I'll copy it here
"After some further thinking I'd like to suggest Underhand to push/teleport an odd number of cells instead.

With Paradox, Gear, and this new Underhand, a target is always moved in multiples of 2. For Paradox and Underhand, this is often insufficient to save an ally from a lock by the boss/tank enemy. There are times you will also want to displace the checkerboard position of various targets on the field, be it to avoid being in a diagonal/in line with a target or for various positioning needs.

For now the best example I can think of is the Jellix dungeon's boss, but I do remember feeling the need for it in a few other dungeons that I can't recall right now.

Tempus Fugit is a very restrictive and specialised tool. One of the portals is always underneath the Xelor, so you will have to spend AP and MP getting to where you want your target to end up first, then cast it, then have the Xelor spend more AP and MP getting back to where you want your Xelor.

Of course, if the developers want to give the players stronger agency and control (which I haven't been optimistic about), a good way is to tie it to the number of charges that Time Theft was stacked. That way at any given point in the battle, you're granted the possibility of teleporting a target 1 or 2 cells, or if you plan 1 turn in advance, 3 cells, and if there was ever a need in battle to do so, a higher number of cells than that.

There are still issues with Xelor as a positioner role- symmetrical teleportations and swaps ala Gear, Paradox, Symmetry and Dial are unique in flavour, but restrictive in combat, have cast/target limitslimited in displacement distancewithout sufficient boons to counteract their restrictions.

In the hierarchy of positioning prowess, positioning a target by a controlled number of cells via push is more important than displacing a target off a linear line. It is also more versatile than cross swapping two targets, especially when you consider it has two damning restrictions- a need for them to be cells apart by a multiple of 2, and the requirement of a target as an axis of rotation.

Consider:
  • Masqs with coward masks can push a target with a number of cells that they can control linearly, anywhere from 2-7.
  • Pandas can throw a target with a number of cells that they can control linearly, anywhere from 1-4, without line of sight.
  • Fecas can teleport a target freely within 5 cells of a glyph, and the glyph can be freely placed. They also have Telluric whack which has no max distance restrictions.
  • Even Sadidas have a 1 cell push without need for sight, modifiable range, no need for target, has an additional damage boosting buff. They also have The Blocks which can allow them to position allies 10-15 cells or beyond.

At the very least, I feel letting Gear and Underhand require no Line of Sight is a good tradeoff for the restrictions that they impose.

Alternatively, I find that destroying the Dial/Sinistro/Cog via Gear is something I was unable to use effectively, and I wouldn't mind if it was changed so that you can swap all targets symmetrically around the Sinistro/Cog/Dial when casted on it, rather than teleport there and destroy the mechanism, and also allow you to cast Gear on these mechanisms no matter how far you are away from them. This alone will skyrocket the usefulness of Sinistro/Cog as a beacon for free positioning, creating a niche for them as "summoning positioners" like Cra and Hupper as opposed to direct positioners
"
....
stack AP theft as delayed damage  >>>  we have already said that comparing passives is not a matter of natural mechanics in identity like old Tick/Tock

summon an object that interact with any source of teleportation >> before revamp Xelor could summon many more objects and their effectiveness was higher for some obvious reasons (hi new sinistro wink )

have an attack that repeats on previous targets (Hamm’hour) >>>we are talking about a natural mechanic that connects different parts in class together, like old Tick/Tock. 

Bypass enemies that move you upon attack (Suspension) >>> old Suspension have connects with dial and even earlier could even destroy dial cell. new Suspension just a spell that the maximum can interact with a passive Momentary Permutation passive but it has nothing to do with the natural mechanics of the class

....
conclusions,
what you name does not indicate that Xelor has an identity, and even more so that this identity is better. You named the mechanic of getting AP from WP and this mechanic can be improved by influencing Xelor spells.
- Devs can make the current hour consumed to influence spells.
- Positioning can be improved, which is simply ridiculous now for a class whose role is also a positioner.
- Removing the AP is unbeatable in front of the fact that you just kill the mob due to the increased damage instead of worrying about picking up the AP
.- Sinistro meme. 
........
Vilmer#7758|2021-10-05 12:18:44
 I only ask because a geared out 215 xelor and a 125 xelor are likely to have very different experiences. Relax, my opinion doesn't devalue anyone elses. The person in the elio thread did not even know you couldn't cast through a portal if a mob was on it, I would not refer to them as an elio player.



his character level on the account may not say anything. it is very strange to indicate the level of a character in order to establish the truth. there are 215 characters who do not know the mechanics in the dungeons, and even more so the capabilities of their class, just because now you can very quickly get level 200 in a couple of days (2x exp weekend proof of this). many people write on the forum from additional accounts for various reasons and it is not for you to judge their experience only by the information that is on the message account.
xXDarkTurboXx#9686 gave an excellent analysis, unlike you, who just appeared in this thread to write that
Vilmer#7758|2021-09-28 19:32:29

While we making xelor pleas, i'd like to plea that single target xelor doesn't get nerfed. Ty.
5 -2
Score : 9372

Amazing how much criticism you have for a class.... you don't even play with :/
First of all old Xelor's WP regen was a menagerie of tiny actions that you had to stack over time that made Xelor pretty much identical to Eniripsa, old Feca, Ecaflip, etc. Just Do a lot of arbitrary and obvious mechanics and you get WP, yay... You want to be purely Air/Fire? Well you won't regen AP as quick as if you had the Water Spells to remove AP, oops! And yes, Xelor is, by far, the ONLY class that can use Unused APs to generate WPs, and before people keep complaining "that means I have to sacrifice a turn to get WP!" well, suck it! Show restraint! No class is meant for you to burn a ton of WP every turn! And ther will ALWAYS be that fight you will have nothing to do one turn or two, especialy endgame dungeons where some bosses can give you a "useless turn" like changing phases or limiting your actions!

While the idea of changing your positioning distances with things like Theft and such sounds fun, it also BLOATS the Xelor's kit to something overcomplicated AGAIN! We don't need stupid conditions changing how many cells we move a target, especialy ones that require previous turns of preparation, thats not how Wakfu works half the battles. Its a perfect balance of strategic planning and the ability to adapt and improvise.

Consider:

  • Masqs with coward masks can push a target with a number of cells that they can control linearly, anywhere from 2-7.
  • Pandas can throw a target with a number of cells that they can control linearly, anywhere from 1-4, without line of sight.
  • Fecas can teleport a target freely within 5 cells of a glyph, and the glyph can be freely placed. They also have Telluric whack which has no max distance restrictions.
  • Even Sadidas have a 1 cell push without need for sight, modifiable range, no need for target, has an additional damage boosting buff. They also have The Blocks which can allow them to position allies 10-15 cells or beyond.

Why, I consider... GOOD FOR THEM! Thats THEIR gimmick, doesn't mean we have to do the same trick.

And the Gear/Symmetry positioning is another unique aspect of the Xelor, the symmetrical teleportation, something we previously saw as the final mechanic on Count Harebourg's Eliocalypse climax, on Dor'mor, Revamped Rogue, something that requires a more flexible way of thinking. Sure its limited, but why must every positioning be "easy"? That takes away what make Feca, Pandawa and Sadida so unique in their positioning methods. Just let Xelor handle symmetries. Also, you can still help an ally break lock like this. The Backside of an enemy have half the lock, so a quick use of Paradox or Underhand can unlock an ally unless his dodge is absolutely Abysmal, but then you can always use Gear/Fugit to separate them... Plus now your positioning is self-suficient. Old Xelor relied on the dial to teleport something, spend between 4-10 AP to push with Underhand and the Tempus Fugit glyph was never fixed.

But I 100% agree with you that Underhand and/or Gear shouldn't require Line of Sight, thats just stupid...

Also, old Cog was HORRIBLE. First, my pet peeve that a FIRE summon was called HYDRANT, second the fact it only triggered after your turn to give you the bonus charges, but you also lose 2 bonus charges if the Hydrant was destroyed, then it only had sinergy with ONE clunky spell, and the fact it took into consideration a MELEE/ST MASTERY, also how the cross AoE is pretty hard to nail on multiple enemies, the limitations Control set upon you, the list goes on. New Cog isn't perfect, but a vast improvement over Hydrant.

"This alone will skyrocket the usefulness of Sinistro/Cog as a beacon for free positioning, creating a niche for them as "summoning positioners" like Cra and Hupper as opposed to direct positioners"

You can do this by casting Paradox on them, which was thankfuly freed from the linear casting.
New Sinistro is crap, no arguments there.

" we have already said that comparing passives is not a matter of natural mechanics in identity like old Tick/Tock "

Passives ARE an identity of a class, they are not obligatory to have every battle, but each class have something special to fill their 6 passives slots to impact the way they act. Plus old Xelor's passives were almost obligatory with a very few variation, now Xelor can create almost 3 entirely distinct builds that range from AP/debuff, Mid-range raw damage and long-range damage, indirect under-the-armor burn (making Xelor 2.0 preeeetty much a hard-counter for support Fecas and Masqueraiders) and the list goes on!

And please, Old suspension was a GIMMICKY spell. Sure it was really fun and creative, but not exactly something game-changing. The advantage of the new Suspension is precisely protecting you from reactionary placement. Xelor can, no joke, CHEAT Dor'Mor, Sumorse, Zeppelantern and even Vertox with the inversion Stele! Just one use of Suspension and you're unbound of anything that moves you against your will during your turn except walking on Dial. Sure being locked out of Symmetry is a drawback, but a fair one (although would be nice if we could still use the spell for damage without moving). Also, why the ever-loving heck would anyone want to CONSUME A DIAL HOUR? Good, you lost part of your positioning! Part of your range, buff and even mechanic just so you could, what, deal some more damage once?
While I do agree it would be nice to have perhaps some sort of passive or natural mechanic that allows certail spells to "come out" of a dial hour for some sort of cost, would make our Dial like a pseudo-Elio portal and I'm OK with that. Maybe add it to Slowdown of Time passive, it makes our Dial huge, might as well allow us to launch a spell from one hour cell without leaving our current one.

While Xelor 2.0 is not perfect, its now precise with the damage, direct with the mechanics, simple with the spells, varied with the passives and definitely more potent with the raw destruction. The support half of it was sacrificed to give us a more slimlined damage-dealer, but I find it worth it because support Xelor was pretty situational and not a very good use of the class.
4 -7
Score : 105

 

Infoglas#1636|2021-10-07 06:47:11
2) a strange argument "you are not playing", I can just as well say in relation to you

wait wut... you only play forums no play xelor? And you decided to tell us how most people feel about xelor, you make me so sad.

Honestly, I do miss my identity as the teams top initiative burner. I used to burn so much initiative everyones inhalation stopped working, I was the best. But times change, burning initiative was really OP, it had to go. All we can do now is adapt, gl guys.
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Score : 3727

I know this is a troll post, but it did give me a good laugh, I completely forgot that inhalation bonus existed

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Score : 721

 

Granthese#6501|2021-10-03 07:39:15
You say Xelor have no identity, yet what other class can:
- convert unused AP into WP
- increasingly convert WP into AP
- stack AP theft as delayed damage
- start the game with 12 WPs
- have 5 unique positioning spells (6 if you include the dial)
- summon an object that interact with any source of teleportation (Cog)
- have an attack that repeats on previous targets (Hamm’hour)
- Bypass enemies that move you upon attack (Suspension)




there's literally 0 things special about what you said

- stack AP theft as delayed damage
"Hey guys, look here, my class can stack resource to do damage, no other class can do that, you see how unique it is? because NONE other class can STACK some rersource to do DAMAGE , what an UNIQUE and Different Class the Xelor has become"

- summon an object that interact with any source of teleportation (Cog)
Bro... Are you really gonna use single spells to talk about identity? Elio's portals interact with positioning in extremely better ways than cog, Sram air trap works with teleportations, rogues connstant teleport his bombs to positioning them better.  I'm not a Cog hater, but c'mon...

- have 5 unique positioning spells (6 if you include the dial)
 Never saw any class using Wily besides Sram, so because of that fact we can conclude that Sram is an unique class? No, same with Xelor. Xelor positioning spells doesn't do anything special, it just depends on positioning, so depends all other 17 classes positioning spell in this game.


- have an attack that repeats on previous targets (Hamm’hour)
(I like Hamm'hour) Another single spell, not talking about that again.

- convert unused AP into WP
- increasingly convert WP into AP
- stack AP theft as delayed damage
- start the game with 12 WPs

Since all of them is about Wp I will talk about them in one time:

As I said before, the only thing closest to identity is the Time theft mechanic, the reason why I don't consider that a identity is because this mechanic doesn't provide anything besides limitation.

Take old Tick/Tock

This mechanic didn't restricted you in any way, it was the oposite. Depending on with state you were your spells would do USEFUL different things, the problem with Xelor spells was that they were outdated, the new system doesn't make anything special, every class has a wp regen mechanic, but I don't see anyone talking about that as identity.
Dial could also be an argument, but I don't like using individual spells to say that Classe X is unique, Sadida isn't unique because it can summon, dol X or Y, he is unique because all the dolls makes his kit complete. The same with Masq and his clones, Iop Combos,  Rogue Bombs, Hupper Light, Elio portals. Thoose things interacts with his kit and make it unique.
Now tell me, what is the special interation that time theft makes with Xelor Kit? N O T H I N G.
Is just a Limitation besides being a Wp Regen Mechanic. 
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Score : 3727
- stack AP theft as delayed damage
"Hey guys, look here, my class can stack resource to do damage, no other class can do that, you see how unique it is? because NONE other class can STACK some rersource to do DAMAGE , what an UNIQUE and Different Class the Xelor has become"


What on earth are you talking about? Do you think talking sarcastically suddely makes your point more valid? Delayed damage is uncommon tho, we have sram, and panda who stack poisons, eniripsa and cra who have 1 poison, ouginak and sadida who have condiional poisons, but xelor has sandglass, clock and shriveling, making him he class with the most poisons (as well as the only one with an AoE poison)

- summon an object that interact with any source of teleportation (Cog)
Bro... Are you really gonna use single spells to talk about identity? Elio's portals interact with positioning in extremely better ways than cog, Sram air trap works with teleportations, rogues connstant teleport his bombs to positioning them better.  I'm not a Cog hater, but c'mon...


Elio portals and sram traps don't "work with" positioning, they provide positioning, so no idea what point you were trying to make? None of them synergise with positioning spells.

- have 5 unique positioning spells (6 if you include the dial)
 Never saw any class using Wily besides Sram, so because of that fact we can conclude that Sram is an unique class? No, same with Xelor. Xelor positioning spells doesn't do anything special, it just depends on positioning, so depends all other 17 classes positioning spell in this game.


Acually masquaraiders also have willy in he form of somersault. It's also not the point he was making as it was the Number of different positioning spells they have acess to.

Since all of them is about Wp I will talk about them in one time:

As I said before, the only thing closest to identity is the Time theft mechanic, the reason why I don't consider that a identity is because this mechanic doesn't provide anything besides limitation.


All recently reworked casses have a very unique WP mechanic, so I would argue WP mechanics are part of every class identity. Xelor is just slightly more unique with it's 12 WP pool. No clue how free AP is a limitation tho.

Take old Tick/Tock

This mechanic didn't restricted you in any way, it was the oposite. Depending on with state you were your spells would do USEFUL different things,


Literally the only thing it did was restrict some effects on spells to only work on odd or even turns? Isn't that the definition of limitation? While the new tick tock distorts your damage and will across turns allowing it to be used with any spell and is also optional.

Now tell me, what is the special interation that time theft makes with Xelor Kit?

It gives AP you can spend on any spell in his kit?
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