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Xelor after revamp. One more appeal to the developers.

By 9Nectum9#1864 - MEMBER - May 07, 2021, 17:54:36

Hello developers!
It's been a long time since Xelor revamp. We  need to make additional changes. You said that after the revamp, the class will not be left without attention, but I read Beta 1.72 Changelog and apart from the animations, no necessary changes for Xelor. 
What do I mean by necessary changes?

  • Push in the current turn. Iop, Feca, Sram, Osa, Enu, Eca, Eni, Sadida, Cra, Sacrier, Panda, Masq, Rogue, Elio, Hupper, Ougi and Fogger can push in current turn. Why is Xelor an exception? And what does he get from this exception? Absolutely ALL classes can push during the current turn. But this cannot be done by Xelor. Is it possible to give the deferred sense an extra bonus? Or, for example, if Xelor makes Push and Premonition (2 AP+2AP) on the target at the same time, then there will be push in the current turn. Is it so difficult to give what absolutely all classes have? I also note that this is not only my opinion. Take a look at this guide. https://www.wakfu.com/en/forum/50-xelor/240877-guide-pelayus-xelor-guide-100-translated-thankyou-all the screenshots that I will show this from the guide, to confirm that I am not the only one who see that changes are needed here. Many Xelors write that they need a push on their current turn.
  • Sinistro does not help at all. The point is that it is too expensive  (2 AP and 2 WP). Suggestion: keep the price, but change the effect. Why does Sinistro buff enemies? His job is to help Xelor, not the enemy. At first you made Sinistro friendly, but then for some reason you returned the damage. What if we connect the Sinistro tick/tock effect? On odd turns, he gives action points (to allies), an even turn takes away action points from enemies .
  • Paradox - many Xelors write that the spell is very limited.
  • Dial master passive  - it is very strange to see such an effect for Xelor. the name of the passive does not reflect the fact that we are the masters of the dial. it reflects what we need to position in order to apply the debuff to the enemy. But this debuff is not that significant. Usually in PVE, the team prefers to kill the enemy faster than expose it to the damage debuff. I think we need to change the name of this passive and add something else there or allow the debuff to increase. or change the passive effect to reflect dial skill rather than dial positioning skill.
 
  • Portent passive - a very harsh fine. Seriously.
  • Course of time - someone is using this? I see that this passive also needs attention.
  • Assimilation - very high fine. I agree with the author of the guide.
  • Deleting revive is strange. Panda can heal, but it has no revive tool. Osa can only auto-revive itself and having the ability to heal allies through summons but NO revive tool for allies. Elio not healer but can revive. What does this mean? That some classes do not have a healer role, but may revive. And some сlasses have a huge array of healing tools but cant revive. Xelor always could revive. Why was it necessary to remove this? Yes, and revive of Xelor was unique, the resurrected one still died without additional healing...Mummification is an important part of Xelor's identity. It is gone and it's sad.
26 -6
Reactions 50
Score : 198

they didnt want revive to be on dds but they made xel have average base damage (or slightly higher on some spells, versus many dds having most above average) + more focus on support  than the old xelor, less practical damage in its potential damage role vs rogue,  less dd than other dd classes for consistent dmg, and a few utilities that only supports have (notably -dmg, but above average positioning/ap giving, slight armor giving); seems like hes a support or complementary/minor dd with utility/support tools such as positioning, -ap, +ap, as his optimal playstyle pve pvp, rather than main dd

dial master cool but dial dies, cool overall

big dial needs major buffs to either utility or fixed spell ranges to be not troll

desync low base dmg for potential +ap to allies or -ap maybe, dunno, but practical use would be on the tank near the boss; however, to give ally ap needs low/negative fow so they dont lose 1-2 to gain 1, to reap enemy +target ally to +ap would reap ally too so wouldnt even want to target ally then, weir

paradox feels bad/limited, low base dmg, even cog unrewarding with it;

air branch in general is support and probably used just for the positioning, symmetry and the glyph, even non air element xel would bring those for mobility/positioning if planning on doing those, leaving no reason to use the avg/above avg dmg/ap spells / be air as a two-element, unless tri-element; 

cog unrewarding in of itself for positioning dmg unless panda, but then better things with panda than xel; dull and lacking synergy for positioning (the passive involved with -ap'ing for positioning also is really unrewarding)

synchro decent and cool imo

passives in general can struggle to find a practical full set of passives for places as a dd, many awkward and very niche; less so for full support but still niche to want to bring a support xel

current hour cell + high cd dial make doing consistent full dmg impractical

class in general forces niche usage, little synergy tbh; overall pretty awkward and clunky to play utilizing his kit for purposes other than basic and low general dmg with occasional burst

lotsa polishable things

2 -2
Score : 7702

If they made Paradox with 2 casts per target instead of 1, would be a huuuuge fix already. Plus have good synergy with Cog:
Summon Cog, cast Paradox twice, 12AP well spent.

3 0
Score : 10227
Course of Time: I honestly wonder who uses this passive. It is very underwhelming and I don't really think there are too many scenarios where it can shine. It could've had some uses if the AP steal worked with Tempus Fugit so you could spam low AP spells on the rift, but since it doesn't the only scenarios where the passive can trigger are very limited and it isn't worth the space on the deck in my opinion. I guess it was designed to add an extra effect to the teleportations, but it isn't rewarding enough. It is also weird how when you have Shrivelling equipped, when you teleport an ally they get the poison but the enemy doesn't.

Paradox is so cool but so limited. As a team positioner tool, it has a very nice modificable linear range that doesn't require LoS, but you still need to invest some extra APs to summon mechanisms to position the target where you want (which ends up being something very expensive) and even so you might end up moving an enemy that you don't really want to move, but was caught on the AoE. As a damaging tool, it could shine more if you could at least cast it twice on the same target. It would be cool if it had some synergy with the Dial too, I remember reading a suggestion on the Discord server about being able to cast the spell on the Dial to symmetrically swap every fighter that's standing on an Hour Cell, meaning if there is an ally standing on II and other on I, they'd move to VIII & VII respectively.

Dial Master: Yeah, it'd be cool if it had a more important effect rather than a dmg malus. I'm not a huge fan of giving classes some cool tricks that aren't alligned with their role or concept just because it looks nice. In that sense, we could also give, idk, Rogues a protector spell to shield allies but, is it really effective? does it synergize with the rest of the arsenal? does it work on a glass cannon class as them?. I don't think Xelors needs a passive like Dial Master, I don't really see the benefit of it. I'll assume that the dmg debuff on the Xelor isn't intended but even so... let's say the passive doesn't live up to it's name. A -15% DI debuff sounds cool, but this kind of strats can't really keep up with the team.

Assimilation: I'll put a pin on this one. Since the next patch will add new subs, it seems like this passive will start to shine more if you mix it with Return III, Sheer Power and the spell Hand. But yeah, it sucks that you have to actually invest in outer stuff to make this passive more viable, because the WP debuff hits pretty hard.

Underhand: I have mixed feelings with this spell. I don't think it is useless at all, it is a very strong spell for kiting and a decent counter for melee enemies that like to stabilize or lock. With this spell you can make sure no one is will be locking you at the start of the turn. As a positioning tool it sucks, but as a tool to keep the Xelor safe and kite it is pretty decent.

One of the things that can be done to "fix" the delayed effects on Xelor is to create a passive that changes how when the spells trigger, something similar to Feca's passive Master of Shields so Underhand and Sinistro could be triggered the moment they are cast, but they'll get a cooldown of 2 turns (?) or some other restriction, something along those lines.

Revive: I miss this spell. Maybe bring it back in the form of a passive that changed the way Against the Clock works? Instead of rewinding the target's position, it would rewind the target's HP to the amount it had the previous turn, in case of being dead it would revive them and heal them the amount they had before dying. It would create new interesting synergies and serve as a strategic tool to use in tandem with a glass cannon, if someone got 1 hit K.O'd it would fully revive them but as the battle progresses it would be less and less effective. Brainstorming here. On this part, I'd like to point out that Elios haven't been reworked yet and I'm pretty sure they'll also lose the ability to revive targets when their turn comes.

 
2 0
Score : 2056

Mention in the discord but would like to log this here too:

Dark Dimension: Give a similar malus to a mix of clockmaking and Dial master, all hour cells that are not the current Hour gives an aura of -30 FoW. You will be able to use it offensively together with Dial master to reduce enemy FoW with Momentary permutation and on a default 0 FoW build with tick tock and cyclothermia lets you reach +90 on current Hour in tock turns for AP removal and -90 for AP buffing via Desync. This also lets you take Course of Time to Debuff enemies, but reduce chances of removing ally's FoW when moving them with Gear or Paradox.

Clock: Criminally underperforming and not worth the deck space at all, previously suggested to trigger damage times equal to AP used this turn or WP used last turn instead.

As mentioned previously by other Xelors, either Symmetry, Gear or Tempus Fugit should require no line of sight or Xelor's positioning capabilities will be greatly weakened (consider Masquaraider's Somersault and Sram's Wily which has no Line of Sight Requirement. Symmetry and Gear do not need line of sight for 1-2 cell range, but at 3 cell no matter which of the two middle cells the obstacle is at, a Xelor is prevented from using it at a 3 cell range target.)

AP Granting/ Removal of Sinistro should be 3 cells rather than two from Specialised Mechanism to fit with its blast radius of the start of turn AP giving and Light damage.

Underhand: Please let it work as a NORMAL DAMAGE SPELL by not restricting it's cast per target and cast per turn. If it's too strong to push by 8 cell then don't let the effects stack but for God's sake let Xelor do air damage normally without relying on Suspension all the time!

​​​​​​Hourglass: Please let it work like firedamp explosion and not hurt allies when applied on them as a target. You can even do it exactly like firedamp and make it not hurt the target at all, basically making it a 1 cell cross water firedamp explosion

2 0
Score : 7411

developers please consider these suggestions.
some things obviously need to be changed, everyone writes about it. here is a list of (incomplete) suggestions from me and other Xelor players for improving Xelor class. 
Some passives, clock spell, underhand spell definitely need to be changed. 

Active abilities.

The previous Devotion was not only effective, but used dial as part of the Xelor identity. It only gave 2 AP to one ally and had a long time cooldown. The new Devotion has a smaller cooldown timer, which increases the temptation to use it more often. And also offers uneven exchange 4 WP for 3 AP. This makes the problem of depletion WP worse.

Suggestion: Make an honest exchange 3 WP for 3 AP.
OR improve the effect.
When cast on self, Xelor is granted 3APs, when cast on allies, AP is granted on a 3-cells aura, with the following rules:
•        1 ally in the aura (only target ally): 3AP
•        2 allies in the aura: 2AP each
•        3+ allies in the aura: 1AP each     
Xelor is excluded from the aura AP buff

Gear a good tool that has allowed healing dial in the past. The problem with the revamped Xelor is that it has a lot of restrictions when the past Xelor had a lot of freedom. The very presence of the ability to heal the dial was just about freedom. Now Gear strong positioning tool and allows you to destroy Xelor summons (which are so expensive why we need to destroy it?).

Suggestion: No longer requires Line of Sight OR 2 uses per turn. Removing additional restrictions not only improves the class in terms of role, but also allows old players to feel more free in this revamp. 
OR - if Xelor destroy summons return the cost of the destroyed summons or HALF from this cost. 

Sinistro too expensive and gives AP to enemies.

Suggestion: Lower cost through passive specialized mechanisms OR through passive Remanence (1 AP 2 WP OR 2 AP 1 WP).

Elemental Spell.

Suggestion:

Symmetry - Range 1-4 OR allow symmetry to be used around dial cell like before revamp Punishment had extra damage when cast on hour cells, and regardless your position and the spell's range, you could always cast on an hour cell. Let to Xelor use this mechanic again so we can cast Symmetry on an hour cell.

Paradox - 2 casts per target. It's too limited as basic positioning tool.

Desynchronization – To give an ally AP needs a low/negative FoW so they don't lose 1-2 AP to get just 1 AP. It is better AP is rewarded to allies at the start of their turn OR increase the reward to 2 AP (we will improve the support role in Xelor. because now giving AP very quickly depletes the supply of Wakfu points).

Underhand - All classes have basic tools for pushing the current turn except for Xelor. Xelor needs to use other combinations to get out of the block, but he also has a delayed push, which is not a reliable tool. In the past, Xelor could not only determine the number of cell to push, but also activate the push in the current turn. This is a very important tool. Let us activate this this turn.

Clock - Maybe increase range and base damage to make it more appealing? Clock gives me a strong sense of change. The current option is ineffective.

Dark Bolt - Bounces to one more target will also increase attractiveness aoe build side.

Passives.

Suggestion:

Dial master - a very strange effect that the Xelor have never had before. Wouldn't it be better to return the opportunity to heal the dial through this passive? OR everyone who starts their turn on dial cell transfers resists to dial body (need to decide how many resists will take away). Including Xelor if it starts its turn on dial cell. Thus, we really have something that is related to the dial, and not just makes a damage debuff.
OR
- reduce the cost of dial from 2 AP to 1 AP 
OR
-reduce the cooldown of dial from 3turn CD to 2 turn CD

The course of time -  This passive absolutely necessary change.

Specialized Mechanisms: If Dial dies, Xelor restores 2 WP instead of 1 WP. This would also solve the fast depletion WP problem.

Assimilation - very severe fine as for Portent passive.

Dark dimension - the ability to influence the bonus of the current hour is interesting, but this passive does not work together with Counterclockwise passive (+15% damage inflicted).Something needs to be done here too.  

4 0
Score : 10227

About the Sinistro, I'd preffer if the WP cost could be lowered rather than the AP. The reason is because sometimes I really avoid summoning the Sinitro because it moves the Current Hour too much and ends up desynchronizing the turn. You have to summon it before placing the Dial/step out of the Dial or avoid using Distortion during the turn so the CuH doesn't go crazy. That and the fact that WP are a very important ressource.

About Gear, I think that the Teleporting effect of the spell is what's really limiting it. In that sense, I think that the Mechanism Destruction effect should be separated from the teleport, this would mean that a new active spell should be created. The reason behind Gear having a low range is to avoid making the TP too strong and, in consecuense, the range from which you can destroy mechanisms with it is also limited.

About Dark Bolt... I don't really use it, almost never. You can't control where the bolt will land and it is just a ST attack disguised as an AoE spell. The damage of the rebound is what matters, not the initial hit. AoE spells are supposed to be effective to deal damage to multiple enemies at once or give the character some crowd crontrol, Dark Bolt is just a single-target spell that uses your AoE mastery to deal damage. In that sense, I think the old Temporal Dust was superior for an AoE build. I totally agree that it should at least damage 1 more enemy or just turn it into a circle of 2 cells with some kind of synergy with mechanisms (as the old Temporal Dust).

About Symmetry, I'd love if it could act as Punishment. Air Xelors need more ways to deal damage, it isn't like too many Xelors are using it as a positioning tool either, I rarely see other Xelors using it in battle and if they do it is because their Dial got destroyed or they need to escape from the enemy. It could shine more as a Damage spell in my opinion.

About Clock, even if I defended this spell in the past, after many battles I think it doesn't fit on a team. Sometimes it is even complicated to trigger Sandglass and the AP poison when your team is killing everything fast, the scenarios where I have triggered Clock are very few and that is IF the allies are paying attention to the battle and avoid killing the carrier of the state. Maybe when the Indirect Damage rework arrives and it bypasses the Boss' inmunity it could shine more, but until then this is just a waste of space in my opinion. I wouldn't mind if the power of the spell was decreased and, in exchange, it gained more range to be useful on a Distance build.

1 0
Score : 10227

 

Thothus|2021-05-09 16:25:37

"(...)let Xelor do air damage normally without relying on Suspension all the time!"



That's a very good point too. I didn't really notice how reliant the class is in Suspension until now to deal air damage.

Suspension is the only viable and real air damage source for Xelors. Tempus, Paradox, Symmetry, Underhand, all of them have a cast limit of 1 per target. Suspension is just the only option. The main reason is because this branch is full with utility spells so, in consequence, the restrictions are also pretty hard which ends up limiting the air DPT.

Maybe if some effects and teleportations were merged, it would allow other spells to have more freedom to deal damage. That's one of the reasons why I like the idea proposed by 9Nectum9 about turning Symmetry into Punishment, at the cost of losing the self Teleportation effect which, in a certain way, is kind of redundant seeing how much mobility the Dial and Tempus Fugit already give to the class.
1 0
Score : 2056

I would also like to recount a suggestion made in the hotfix thread -half the damage, ap cost and wp cost of tempus fugit, and you have to cast two of them for them to function as it currently is (also allowing self cast), rather than have the second one be summoned under the xelor immediately.

This lets the Xelor position one or two things not including himself, otherwise the only useful ally/enemy positioner would be Gear as Paradox has a target limit and costs 4AP (Using a summon and Symmetry to swap a target costs a whooping 7AP or 5AP2WP) The removal of spot teleport of the old Xelor necessitates better ally positioning options than 2 one-per- turn/target spells with under 4 displacement range.

If having this requires lowering the casting range of tempus fugit to prevent a 10-cell teleport, so be it, Xelor has enough self-positioning tools to make it work.
 

1 0
Score : 7411

The positioning of the old Xelor was much better. I could not only accurately place an ally around dial several times per turn


but also push it away in the current turn for the number of cells that I need. also, past positioning did not require to leave dial and the past tempus fugit allowed to be a lot mobile. 
even new Feca (which, judging by the encyclopedia, is not a class for positioning) has better positioning tools than new Xelor, who should do this based on his role.
the price of this combination 5 AP and 2 passive slots for decreasing glyph cost (-2WP) and instant triggering of effects(if you need instant reshuffle for 4 AP). You don't even need a line of sight to put this water glyph for 2 AP!
 

New Xelor is linear and limited positioning...
The past Xelor gave an incredible sense of freedom, although he could not do much damage, but his identity shone. Many tools interacted with the dial. Unique resurrection - Mummification. Delayed effects that you could activate (including you could activate delayed damage in the current turn. It was air spell for 2 AP which worked like poison). 
Sad that the developers made a linear, limited class, which even with the positioning role does worse than before. 
As other players have already written in this thread, air needs more damage way because you can only spam Suspension (5 AP 144 base damage on 215 level). 
and thank you for noticing that the positioning also needs improvement!
happy
I hope there will be changes, because the class is very crude ... and it lacks magic, depth.
 
5 0
Score : 493

Hello:

Currently, Against the Clock, when applied on Cog, causes it to swap with itself at the end of the Xelor's turn and triggering twice. Despite Cog having no turns and being the state bearer, it is still able to trigger at the end of the Xelor's turn by design.

Can we have a similar buff to Hourglass to work the same way, so that when the Xelor's turn ends, Hourglass triggers on a state bearing Cog or Dial or Sinistro?

0 0
Score : 2056

Also, the current blast radius of the Cog is 2 cells.

When you wish to cast Tempus Fugit on an enemy, you will need to cast at 2 cells if you want to place a Cog there afterwards to begin the teleporting assault if you want the Cog to hit it. If the blast radius is 3 cell, you will be able to swap with Cog using Symmetry and Tempus Fugit while using Distance Mastery. Otherwise, the suggestion to summon the temporal glyphs separately make more sense to take advantage of the distance mastery

0 0
Score : 2056
On Summons:

Currently, a Xelor who wishes to use summons either just take sinistro for fringe AP benefits or if they want to commit, it feels like the entire spell deck is already laid out for them.

If you take Cog, you'd want to maximize their damage by taking Remnance as well, because the damage of just one is not very significant. You will also want to take Tempus fugit, Gear and Paradox so that you can actually use it to cause damage.

Then you will want to take Against the Clock to trigger Cog twice when it ends it's turn in the same spot as it was when casted.

On taking Remnance, you might as well take Sinistro, to take advantage of having more summons.

After taking Sinistro, you might as well take Specialised Mechanisms to make use of the deaths of the summons.

After taking Specialised Mechanisms, you will want to take Hand and Dark Bolt so that you can make good use of your AP when you want to reposition the summons by killing them and resummoning elsewhere.

At this point you might as well take Assimilation as well.

Out of a deck of 18 slots with 6 for passives, that is already 11 slots used up, leaving 4 slots for spells like Devotion, Symmetry, Suspension, and three for passives like counterclockwise and Carnage (2 or less for anyone below level 200).

That is very very little flexibility in a summon build, and it isn't even very powerful in the first place, even with triple Ruin, because of Paradox and Tempus Fugit's limitations.

​​​​​the prohibitive costs of summons compared to how little they do, makes summons very limited in use. At this point I'd rather sinistro just cost 1WP, has 10% of Xelor's health keep it's modifiable range and have no effect and 2 cast per turn simply to create targets for air spells and Dark Ray/Hammhour, and to advance the current hour. By having lower health and low cost, triggering the AP giving and AP removing from Specialised Mechanism on Sinistro will also be easier.

The light damage and AP granting it applies is very niche and hard to use because of its fragility towards enemies, of which there are multiple while it inherits the resist of Xelor which is higher by necessity to survive dungeons, which makes it harder to kill by the Xelor, making Specialised Mechanism harder to trigger.

On indirect damage:

Sinistro: does Area rather than ST damage like pre-revamp, but it is not clear from the spell description (compare with the hit from drheller of Enutrof's Shovel Shaker, which also shows a zone but does ST damage. While it's okay for Cog to remain Area, is it ok for Sinistro to use ST or Area depending on which is higher, similar to Shrivelling?

Shrivelling: Currently, it's quite hard to justify poison usage in PvE. In rooms, you'll want to make sure you kill the mobs, rather than guess whether the poison finishes them off in low health. If they have armour, the poison damage may not be enough to kill them, which means your allies have to destroy the armour to get at the HP of the mob anyway, wasting the point of piercing damage. In boss rooms, their invulnerability might negate the poison, and the AP removal is more useful anyway. Perhaps buff it by doing -mastery = level of shrivelling, or if it is too strong, -lock = level of shrivelling on state bearer?

Clock: Similarly, maybe Clock can give another debuff = level of the state to make it worthwhile to cast?

Hourglass: 1 cast per target makes its higher damage/AP ratio pointless for killing enemies. Poison triggers at the end of the mob's turn, when they already had their turn to damage the ally, negating the point of hurting the enemy before they can hurt the ally.


 
1 0
Score : 4363

And killing them with gear isn't really worth the 2 AP

0 0
Score : 493

This suggestion attempts to address the following problems:

1. Lack of on demand push
2. Reduced non-self positioning abilities of Xelor post-revamp
3. Clock taking too long to trigger for rooms while being not worthwhile due to inability to bypass 
    invulnerability
3. Clock's range issue 

Instead of applying a non-stackable fixed level state of Clock, let the Clock state be a stackable level that works how it does currently, but in addition - reduces the level (i.e. turns left to trigger and number of times triggered remaining) of Clock when the Clock state bearer is attacked, equal to the amount of AP used by the spell, and pushes the state bearer away a number of cells equal to this number, away from the spell caster.

This has multiple benefits:

1. Allows the Xelor to adjust the number of cell pushed, therefore increasing the positioning power of Xelor against enemies and allies-

Move target 1 cell via Slowdown (removes allies' AP unless combat mage is taken)
Move target by 2 cells via Tempus Fugit / Underhand / Gear (after being teleported, away from Xelor)
Move target by 3 cells via Hammhour/Hourglass (Hurts allies and removes allie's AP unless combat mage is taken)
Move target by 4 cells via Desync (need to retreat  to get into range after casting clock), Dark Bolt (initial hit hurts allies less), or Dust (hurts allies, allows frog hopping to the next min/max range)

2. Allows a Xelor to reduce the number of turns it takes for Clock to trigger on an enemy, even though Clock was casted early in the turn with more AP remaining

3. Breaks lock after engaging in melee using Clock.

4. Acts as a protective spells for allies against melee enemies.

The current Clock can be adjusted to this way, or this can be an extra "strengthening passive" that takes up a passive slot to replace Dial master or Course of Time (it can be called Clock Master or something), neither which serve their designed purpose well in practice.

2 0
Score : 7411

Hi!
Yes, the  Xelor class needs these changes (more useful clock, push in current turn, reduced non-self positioning abilities of Xelor post-revamp). I call them are an "obvious spectrum of obvious changes", i.e. on the surface that will benefit new players because the class will feel more harmonious within the new concept as well as competitive. Also need to change passives, for example which for some reason are unfair to Xelor, but fair to Cra. 


But who have been playing Xelor for more than 3 years (including me) will not be able to say that it is interesting to play it after the revamp. Many of my Xelor friends who devoted a lot of time to the class have left and I understand their feelings.
In truth, when we were waiting for the revamp for the whole 2020 and actively proposing ideas, no one, absolutely no one asked or said that complexity in the class is bad. Just in the concept of Xelor it was very interesting, literally some players after a long time discovered other forms of combinations in Xelor and it gave great pleasure. We even joked among ourselves that we had so many opportunities that we didn't have enough time to turn. And now most of the spells are limited and do not interact with each other. In the past, Xelor had an air spell that interacted with dial.

If the enemy is on the dial cell and you use this spell, then the enemy will receive more damage. Moreover, if this spell addressed the cells of the dial, then all cells were available to it. It would seem such a small opportunity, but in combination with the main tool of Xelor (dial) and other spells that had a huge depth due to synergies, the class was interesting to play!
and now

The current revamp, as we wrote in the beta, is just damage. No magic.
You are simply spamming what is most effective. It's boring for those players who have had a lot of cognitive pleasure that one spell can do a lot of things.
As for the confidence of current developments in deferred effects, Xelor had delayed effects before (including delayed damage), but the previous design was better because you could activate these delayed effects! 
you could:
- activate delayed damage
- activate delayed push
- activate delayed action points in rollback 
now:
- not push in current turn
- clock and large amount of delayed damage without activation
- a time thief concept that makes you addicted to the number of turns in battle (the more you steal time each turn, the more AP you get, but the more you deplete your WP points). 
There was suggestion in beta testing. So that Xelor could steal time, depending not on the number of turns, but on hour which it stands. For example, if Xelor is on 12 hour, it will be able to steal 12 AP at once, although I understand that this would not solve the problem with the depletion of WP supply and the fact that Xelor will not be able to do anything with so many action points. But this proposal led me  to the idea that if Xelor is in the cell of the current hour, it can steal more AP. This would at least solve the dependence of this concept on the number of turns and would give a little more freedom...
All the synergies that were invented were in the class for a reason. Nobody asked to remove them and make a simple, - flat manikin to do damage.
and thanks for your comment and suggestions!
p.s.
I like your idea, there are combinations in it and the fact that the clock becomes a deeper spell (it will be possible to push in the current turn by the desired number of cells), and the current delayed push could be noticed by an attacking spell or tool other type of positioning. 
4 -1
Score : 1002

Hello guys! I have a suggestion on how to solve the problem with the rapid depletion of wakfu points. What is there to make the current hour consumed? The previous gear could be used both on the dial and on xelor itself (on dial to heal it, and on xelor to extract action points in the reserve).
The new gear can also be made for xelor to use on itself to consume the current hour, which would give the state of self-mummification. This state restores a certain amount of wakfu and enhances armor, because xelor loses other bonuses (+ 30% damage, 1 range (if uses a passive), 15% damage (another passive) or willpower (another passive)) it would be balanced solution. Dial cooldown 3 turn so this mechanic will improve the class identity and solve the problem with the depletion of wakfu points. 

3 0
Score : 7702

Thats actualy a really elegant idea, basicaly, if you use Gear on the Dial, it could gain new effects depending on the hour. This could also be attributed to the passive "Clockmaking" (so we don't loser the original erffec of Gear if we really need to swap places with the dial for an emergency escape) such as:
Even Hour:  Gains maximum armor, Xelor is given 100% Crumbly for 2 turns.
Odd Hour: Gain positive Tick/Tock buffs at the same time, Can't be used again for 2 turns.
Bonus Hour: Recovers WP equal to the hour plus whatever bonuys it is for Odd or Even hour, Dial is set on a 4 turns cooldown from Gear.

This gives us 3 new strategic uses of Gear that are STILL UNDER OUR CONTROL. Since we can chose whichever of the 3 effects by simply going to the hour we want.

2 0
Score : 7702

Got a bit of an idea for the dial and the passive Remanensce or Clockmaking to carry that:

When destroyed, the numbers remain for 2 additional turns.

0 0
Score : 723

Water line could use a small boost too, Sinistro still needs work, some of the wonky passives too, but we'll adapt as always I wager.

1 0
Score : 2056

Sinistro currently does Light Damage at the start of the Xelor's turn. To make sinistro and this part of its effect more useful, how about the Light Damage be triggered and AP be granted in an AoE each time sinistro receives damage? The light damage done will hit allies too, to balance it out, and AP granting remains blind of the target.
​​​
This makes Disruption, Dark Ray, Sandglass, Hammhour and Dust much more useful, and Cogs may use a Sinistro as the axis for Paradox and trigger both the Cog's and Sinistro's damage, for them to speed up each other's death. With such low health, an ordinary sinistro wouldn't last long anyway, so the number of attacks it can do and number of AP it can give is limited, and it gives more incentives to take Specialised Mechanism and Assimilation as a Xelor who has competing passives to take.

It also facilitates team play where allies like Iops or Rogues whack the Sinistro like a piñata for AP with air comboes at the risk of hurting themselves repeatedly that Armour cannot replenish.

This also standardizes both Cogs and Sinistros as mechanism you need to interact with to gain benefits from, and are blind to who they benefit, cementing their concept as disposable resummoning tools unlike summons that favour more investment and coddling.

The current Sinistro and Cog faces multiple issues with regards to its usability, which ripples to the two passives related to summons , in which they are not worth the AP cost to summon,reposition and interact with

1 0
Score : 7411

the past sinistro dealt damage twice (at the end of the enemy's turn and at the beginning if the enemy was in the affected area) and remove action points at the same time! 
Xelor could summon a large number of Sinistro depending on control (like 10-12 sinistro in battle).
let's call a spade a spade, now sinistro got a huge nerf. it is expensive, ineffective and boring...
///
activation effects of sinistro if it takes damage :

  • а) we cannot control the desire of enemies to hit sinistro as well as at the same time situations when allies are in the buff zone when enemy want to hit it.
  • b) if an ally wants to get action points from sinistro he spends more action points to hit it than he gets but will buff other allies if they are in the buff zone
during beta testing, someone suggested combination acceleration+sinisto = aoe AP buff immediately. 
there have also been suggestions that sinistro can do temporary bubbles

the game already has states that fit the concept of a time bubble

any actions (movement or spells) become more expensive inside the bubble. 
it would make sinistro a much more interesting and worthwhile instrument. 
another example from an official source about a time bubble

///
As for your suggestion, I like that the effect can be controlled from the side of the allies. one will sacrifice his action points to hit sinistro so that the others get acceleration in the area of action of the sinistro.
1 0
Score : 493

On AoE damage:

Two often kept rules of combat design were broken in the Xelor that makes AoE damage very unviable in the revamped version.

Linear spells often require no LoS - See Sadida's Tears, Hupper's Diurnal butterflies, Rogue's Boomerang shot. This is necessary because linear casting is a very restrictive mechanism, and to be able to hit the target you want, it is a necessary compensation. Linear spells that don't adhere to this rules often either have minimum 3 cell vertical zone to pierce an obstacle (Ecaflip's Three Cards, panda's Flaming Burp, Elio's Torrential Flux and Hupper's Moonbeam), or abnormally high damage (Rogue's piercing shot, Hupper's Downpour, Sadida's Fertilizer).

Disruption has none of this, and a slapped on cast limit when AP cost is limiting enough already. Its damage is mediocre, it needs linearity and the target cell is the centre of the AoE without ability to left shift or right shift. The base max range is subpar and requires bum-stacking of range. But the most punishing of all is its AoE zone, bringing out the second point-

The most common formation AoE damagers have to hit is 2 enemies 3 cells apart in an L shape (a knight's hop, in Chess)- To even consider taking AoE builds for a class, players often find they will have at least 1 spell with AoE zone of such a nature in their repertoire other than the usual cross shape AoE-

1. 3 layer deep cone  (Hupper, Fogger)
2. 3 cell radius circle (Panda, old Xelor, Fogger, Elio, Feca, Sadida, Rogue, Cra, Iop, Eniripsa)
3. 3 cell apart rebound (Rogue, Ecaflip, Cra)

As a Panda main, I have been training to see AoE possibilities without the need to spend AP on throws, or throwing as many enemies as possible with the least amount of AP/MP for an AoE to hit them. The number 3 is not a coincidence. I can say for certainty that an AoE DD will be met with the knight's hop formation most of the time.

This negates the Xelor's ENTIRE toolkit of AoE spells except for the currently very underwhelming Cog (which also has a limitation in that you move it into damaging the knight's hop formation once....then you have to move it away, and also has mediocre damage) and Sinistro (once, at the start of the Xelor's turn, when it is already likely dead)

ALL elemental spells are unable to deal with this 3 cell apart formation- Sandglass, Desync, Disruption,  Paradox without spending additional AP on creating a target or using an existing one, and most disappointing of all, Dark Ray.

Dark Ray in particular breaks all previous known mechanisms of how rebounds work.

Previous rebounds - Line of Sight requirement for rebound, 3 cell maximum distance, rebounds at least twice, at least 5AP cost

Dark Ray- No line of sight for rebound, 2 cell maximum distance, rebounds once, 4AP cost.

The previous established rebound pattern is a delicate balance between spreading damage across enemies to achieve an acceptable Damage/ap/enemy ratio, by being able to reach 2 more enemies via the knight's hop. Xelor's Dark Ray throws this all out of the roof and makes it a leapfrog off a mechanism you summoned in hopes of triggering Specialised Mechanism and hitting a single enemy at the same time.

That is not how AoE spells should work.

 

 

Orfei#8847|2021-05-27 10:08:42
I personally like clock, but I agree with it's extreme limitations.

I think it needs more of a reason to use, and I love the idea that it is basically a ticking time-bomb that is almost guaranteed to end whoever it targets with a full charge.
 





Won't comment on the Clock modifying passives, but I just want to say the current Clock is by no means a finisher. Ive had a sharded set on bulbrute s21 that triggered the bug on turn 1 (which was how we discovered the bug existed in the first place, reported it, and it's STILL not acknowledged or addressed) causing all 12 hits to trigger by turn 2 when Xelor died, and it still barely removed less than a third of bulbrute's health.

Clock being 1WP is irrelevant because its damage is spread out across a number of turns, you could even say that a 7 trigger clock has 1/7th of a WP as a per turn cost, and the spell will still be unusable due to the following reasons-

High turn trigger clocks imply a long battle for you to reap it's rewards. This throws multiple  wrenches into the plan, assuming you want a 7 trigger Clock, that's 2 times the boss archetype can trigger and wipe the team with boosted damage inflicted. You cannot guarantee the Xelor is not dead by turn 7, and even if he is not, that the boss invulnerability has been properly removed (especially for dungeons like Grozepin). Even if he was revived, the Clock state would already have been removed.

Low turn trigger clock puts you in danger. Because Xelors do not currently have a within turn push, if you want to disengage and flee to safety you need a minimum of 2AP (mass charm only if you have a lucky nearby target), up to 8AP (summon a Cog behind the enemy and Paradox it to move it backwards). If a mob needs that amount of damage to be finished off, it would have been dead already in the 2-8 turns it takes for it to trigger.

1 turn trigger clock defeats the purpose of it being delayed damage.

There is no situation for casting clock that serves the purpose of its design, whatever that purpose originally was. The passive changes you mention gives some utility to Clock, but fundamentally it is already designed with a theoretical need that does not serve a pragmatic purpose.
2 0
Score : 4363

While I agree that clock is awkward to use, there are cheaper ways to get out of lock when using it, for example using tempus fugit on an enemy before casting clock on it.

As for 1 turn trigger defeating the purpouse of delayed damage, literally every other delayed damage (poisons, glyphs, traps) have a 1 turn delayed effect, clock and sandglass are actualy slower then all other delayed damage in the game apart from eniripsa's infected flask

0 -1
Score : 4527

Just a thought, I like a lot of New xelors design.

I think positioning did get a bit weaker. My opinion - Tempus Fegit feels like active spell, while the other half of Gears feels like elemental spell. Honestly, just swap those effects along with their range limitations and give the "gears swap effect a 2 per turn" and that would fix it.

If I may offer a suggestion for devotion. That spell is a very iconic spell for Xelor and currently it feels like a negative for long term for the Xelor for a short term reward. The previous iteration of the spell used dial to give a bonus to everyone. Casually would be a bit too powerful on current Xelor and playing through other characters isn't very interesting. But why not take advantage of dial's limitations. Give Devotion an effect for 1 wp for the xelor if ally is on a dial, 3 wp for xelor if ally is on current hour.

2 0
Score : 493

seeing how Gear and Symmetry's swap are basically inverse of each other, they could be linked to a trigger for switching and freeing up its effect for other purposes.

During the turn, before casting Time Theft, Symmetry works as it currently does. After casting Time Theft, Symmetry swaps enemy symmetrical to Xelor instead (Gear's current effect when casted on non-mechanism target).

Gear can have different effects when casted on Dial, Current hour, self, enemy target, ally target, although making it this versatile makes it dangerously close to being a must-take for a spell deck. 

0 0
Score : 2056

On quality-of-life polish:

Given a 30 second timer and the need for a Xelor to think of a lot of things during the turn (loss of Symmetry and Tempus Fugit after Suspension, whether to save Time Theft for after Tempus Fugit is casted, whether to cast Time Theft, Devotion and Distortion before or after Dial, position of Current hour), there are some timing delay issues that greatly affect the performance of a Xelor

Dial - Summoning animation can be sped up or shortened (Dial can be summoned and the Xelor teleported simultaneously, rather than in sequence)
Paradox - Animation can be sped up or shortened (omit the ball throwing part)
Premonition - Animation can be sped up

But the two big offenders are Dust and Hand

Hand does not refund AP and walking is prevented until after the animation finishes - This prevents pre-casting the next spell on a low turn timer causing a person to unable to finish their intended spell sequence, causing AP -> WP conversion that may also overflow the limit (i.e. wasted AP)

Dust does not update the increased max/min range and walking is prevented until after the animation finishes - very devastating for a turn's time, as often multiple Dust spells need to be casted, which needs readjusting of position, and the spell overlay to let you know whether the enemy is within range for attacking

Hammhour prevents walking until animation finishes - positioning the Xelor after 4 casts of Hammhour (especially if you need to cast spells with remaining AP after that) takes too long

 As players head towards higher level dungeons, turn timer being short becomes an issue due to the need for thinking time for positioning. Planning in advance of your turn is severely limited by your teammate's movements, actions, and the enemy's movements. The Xelor's animation stalling the turn time often causes an inability to finish the AP consumption for a sequence.

This not only makes Tempus Fugit, Paradox and Dust hard to plan and use, rendering Cogs almost useless, but also greatly weakens the Xelor's damage output and ability to position.

 

 

cody5#2705|2021-05-31 16:26:55
I haven't experienced not being able to move till hammhour finishes, I mean yes you don't move while the animation plays but clicking on a cell queues the movement like with other spells

Anyway, while I don't think the AP refund on hand can be faster, since it' has to calculate if the mob dies first





Walking after Hammhour is queued yes, but I believe selecting the next spell doesn't give the updated range until after you finish walking, so essentially you're blocked from targeting the next mob if its outside your original range until after the animation finishes.

Whether or not a mob dies shouldn't take long to calculate, loot immediately starts dropping when you queue a spell that finishes off a mob at the end of the battle, I do believe the animation part is separate from the calculation, and so the refund can be earlier.

 
cody5#2705|2021-05-31 16:20:38

As for 1 turn trigger defeating the purpose of delayed damage, literally every other delayed damage (poisons, glyphs, traps) have a 1 turn delayed effect





I agree, which makes poisons absolutely pointless other than prolonging the mob's death and letting them get some weird start of turn attacks that get a cheap hit in before the poisons trigger, and/or get heals in to prevent them from dying if the poison would have killed them. The only current benefit it provides is bypassing armour (which flaming STILL is unable to do), which not a lot of dungeon mobs possess.


A "distortion"-like effect where a component of the damage is inflicted as piercing damage would make more sense.

Glyphs and traps on the other hand, serves a different purpose, because they grant a window for positioners to put more monsters in the glyph/trap, so their delay actually has a use.

 
0 0
Score : 4363

I haven't experienced not being able to move till hammhour finishes, I mean yes you don't move while the animation plays but clicking on a cell queues the movement like with other spells

Anyway, while I don't think the AP refund on hand can be faster, since it' has to calculate if the mob dies first, I completely agree on the dust range increase part

0 0
Score : 125

 

9Nectum9#1864|2021-05-24 04:13:38
there have also been suggestions that sinistro can do temporary bubbles

the game already has states that fit the concept of a time bubble

any actions (movement or spells) become more expensive inside the bubble. 
it would make sinistro a much more interesting and worthwhile instrument. 
another example from an official source about a time bubble
 

I am actually 100% on board with the implementation of mechanics like this. I have to imagine a lot of players complained about Iop's ability to stun people with his charge attack because losing a turn feels awful in both PvP and PvE, but a good compromise would be the implementation of Concussed or similar effects.The effect should be triggered by compounding special spells together. Devotion's effects might be appended to:

Cast on an Enemy or Ally fighter:
↳ Acceleration (+3 Lvl.): 3 max AP (1 turn)
Cast on one of the Xelor's Sinistro:
↳ Sudden Death
↳ (3 tile radius) *Time Dilation Glyph (1 turn)

*Time Dilation being a kit friendly name for Concussed.
All characters inside the bubble/glyph would suffered increased AP and MP costs while inside.
Maybe the combination can be tweaked to work with the Xelor's dial, and instead be locked behind the Dial Master passive so that there is actually a reason to take Dial Master
3 0
Score : 7411

The time bubble theme is a great touch to class identity and makes Sinitro a more useful tool.This "revamp" has deleted a lot "magic" (interaction of spells with dial, unique resurrection - mummification, opportunity to summon 9-12 sinistro, effective positioning allies through dial, many synergies) and the class became too flat. 
Thanks for your comment, I hope the developers will draw conclusions.

4 -2
Score : 1002

What I particularly dislike about this revamp this is a lack of precise positioning.
Underhand should be a more accurate positioning tool.
if I use Tempus Fugit for positioning then this does not give me a guarantee that the mob or boss don't hit an ally again сoz  if they do, it will be "ping pong".We are not reaching our goal about positioning. It would work well if we could push out ally from temporal twist but xelor cannot push this turn...
Push in the current turn is not only a way to get out of the block and increase your mobility, but also a tool for positioning.
I think that if the developers would return old Underhand 



this will significantly improve the positioning situation. 
This revamp only improved the attacking side, the mobility became more limited (for symmetry you need an object, Tempus Fugit allows one time to significantly change its position in comparison old Tempus Fugit, Paradox expensive spell and need object too). As for survivability armor generation is low. Xelor is not a tank in the full sense, but he needs the tools to sustain himself. 
If the goal of this revamp was to make the class easier, then I disagree. if xelor wants to use the basic aspects of his identity (current hour) he must use visual mathematics to understand where the current hour will be after his actions. Although the problem is partially solved with a passive, which auto-teleport to current hour it is not safe in many game aspects (pve/pvp). 
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Xelor deserves better positioning tools.
-------------------------------------
The main difference between xelor and other classes (its identity) is time management, which was implemented using generation AP and removing AP. For me, Xelor in the past was an excellent time mage. New Xelor is more of a thief of time. No one will argue that xelor 1.70 could give a lot of action points to allies (speeding them up relative to the flow of time) and at the same time could speed up himself through the system rollback. at the same time if TOCK xelor could simultaneously take action points from enemies and give them to an ally.  
Xelor is not a master of time now. He's a thief. And his mastery of time is not about identity, but about number of turns. The more turn you stealing time, the more action points you have (more actions relative to the normal state). I would not say that this concept is bad, but it deprives the xelor of their identity, making them dependent on turn. If in the past you just played and could get delayed 3-6 AP every turn from rollback, now you are hostage by number of turns. 
This is good for a variety of builds, because there are things that require quantity AP < 11. 
Now xelor is very hard to play with <11 AP. Сan you argue with me that there is acceleration spell but this is an unfair exchange. 4 WP for 3 AP. 
If now for xelor WP=AP then the exchange must be honest, because it will reflect that xelor is a master in his identity and not a slave or dependent. even if other classes can somehow give AP (iop, osa, etс), they could never do it better than the time magician xelor. this is the reason that will distinguish xelor from others. but after the revamp supporting with buff AP (xelor could also remove -40 water res) gets worse and leads to rapid exhaustion WP if we we often use acceleration. 
Transferring mechanics Tick/tock into passives also bad because it makes part of xelor identity - irrelevant. 
Suggest :return Tick/tock directly into xelor's gameplay and improve it. for example on Tick xelor can get +1 AP more from thief of time by price which would not take into account this additional AP. On Tock xelor gains a bonus to willpower. This will not make the class difficult, but it will improve the identity and make xelor independent of number of turns. Also why dev didn't leave ability to switch tick/tock? 
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Xelor's identity needs improvement.
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The bottom line: my friends and I still feel that the class lacks additional tools to be a positioner. It got boring for me to play xelor because part of his identity (mastery of control AP - time control and tick /tock mechanic) got worse. Mummification was removed as was the ability to heal dial. Sinistro is a very expensive instrument and fragile, just like xelor itself.
Clock beautiful animation, but absolutely ineffective. If Clock will be delayed poison like past air delayed poison which was activated on the next turn and could be activated this turn,  - that would be much better than Clock now. 
I really hope that balancing will return soul and life to this class. now it's just some kind of damage-generating manikin, with mobility, but poor tools for delayed effects and positioning.
2 0
Score : 4363

I do agree that xelors positioning could be improved, but as the devs said, a direct push would make escaping lock too easy.

What if underhand could be triggered by some spell that has a minimum range of 3?

0 0
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