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Timing of Delayed Effects of Xelor are unuseable

By Thothus#6662 - MEMBER - April 23, 2021, 02:36:48

There are several spell effects by xelor with delayed timing that makes them unviable to take in the spell deck, I haven't used them at all ever since the release of revamped Xelor because they simply do not work with the needs of the Dungeon and the team.

Delayed effects that work well, or with a useable, controlled purpose:

  • Shrivelling
  • Clockmaking
  • Tick Tock
  • Tock Tick

Delayed effects that are unviable, do not work well, or do not set out to achieve the purpose of the effect because of the bad timing:
 
Start of Xelor's turn:
  • Premonition (takes too long)
  • Underhand (pointless for positioning by the time it triggers)
  • Sinistro (sinistro is long dead before it can serve its purpose)
  • Dial Master (Xelor is debuffed)
  • Desynchronisation (takes too long)

Start of Enemy's turn:
  • Clock (Bosses have invulnerability which Clock does not bypass, normal mobs do not need Clock to be killed easily)

End of Enemy's turn:
  • Sandglass (Enemy ends turn close to ally, Enemy ends turn away from other mobs)

Here are some alternatives that allow better timing of the spells, boosting their chances of actually being taken in the spell deck to be used.

End of Xelor's turn: Sinistro, Premonition, Underhand
If reason for the delay of the effect of these spells are too powerful to be on demand, then they are too weak to be used at their current timing. End of Xelor's turn allows the team to benefit from these spells even if the Xelor doesn't. Sinistro can grant AP to allies and hurt enemies with light damage before it dies from being sneezed at, and you have more control over preventing enemies from gaining AP because of Sinistro's position. Premonition grants armour earlier, and Underhand at least lets the Xelor position the enemy for allies, even if he cannot take advantage of the position himself during the turn.

Start of Enemy's turn: Sandglass
Basically turning it into a poison like Poisoned Wind or Shrivelling, since the enemy is more likely to be next to another enemy with the help of the Xelor/Ally's positioning, and less likely to be next to an Ally/Xelor. The Xelor also has more control over the damage by casting it on a surrounded ally that goes after him.

When Attacker targets the Xelor, after AP consumption, before damage and effect is applied: Premonition, Sandglass, Dial Master
Basically, by removing Premonition being casted on self, and instead only being applied on enemies, the spell is change to have three "charges" of armour granting that triggers when the Xelor is targetted. This boosts its useability in PvE, while in PvP enemies can still bypass it by using AoE spells. For Sandglass, this might give one last window to kill low health enemies before they get the chance to attack, and discourage attacks in PvP. Self-explanatory for Dial Master for attackers on an hour cell, giving more control for Allies and Xelor to choose not to be on hour cell when it triggers. 

After Enemy attacks an ally: Underhand, Desynchronisation
Breaks lock and makes enemy waste MP/reduce incoming melee damage as they need to close gap again. For Desync, gives earlier use of granted AP

End of Enemy's turn: Underhand
Messes up enemy's positioning and breaks lock for Ally's benefit BEFORE the start of Xelor's next turn.

Start of Ally's turn: Desynchronisation
For earlier use of granted AP

End of Round, before start of next turn: Clock
Increases likelihood that boss invulerability is gone, except for bosses like Hoodfella, Silmawhirly etc.

 
3 -6
Reactions 20
Score : 3593

Clock does actually bypass some boss invulnerabilities as it deals indirect damage
Tick tock isn't really a delayed effect since you get the buff before the debuff
Premonition could just trigger at the end of everyone's turn, I mean it's not like allies need armour on their turn anyway? The effect is fine already tho, imo
Attack trigered sandglass sounds fun, but for dial master it's literally how it used to work before they changed it, so I doubt they will revert it
I do actually like the idea of underhand triggering on the target's turn instead of the xelors

1 -4
Score : 9397

so funny. you were very active in the beta discord and didn't write anything like that. and now ... the train has left, it's too late to write and analyze something. the developers are confident in their delayed effects for the class. Reg already spoke at beta and he can write a whole dissertation on why the delayed effects of xelor are bad (especially push next turn). 
apparently the french players like what happened to the Xelor class. because they have silence there on FR forum about it. 
Does it make sense to write something in Xelor now if the developers do not pay attention and do not give any comments?  
sad

10 -5
Score : 3100

Beta feedback I provided was on mechanism of Xelor spells on the basis of whether or not they thematically fit Xelor, how they compared to the old spells, and preliminary understanding of the spells as applied on mobs. The feedback is subject to further revision as testing continues to accumulate with real dungeoning. I was not and still am not a level 200 player, and have no intentions of grinding for non-level-200 gear which are not provided by the ecaflipus token machine in Beta. The experience of a Xelor of ANY LEVEL is important because the road towards level 200 encompass the MAJORITY of what Xelors experience, and will primarily be what new Xelors experience as well, and their feedback is just as important.

I don't see how Reg's opinions has anything to do with what I have to say? I did not reject his opinions, nor complain about them. I'm just continuing to offer my own perspective after the release of the revamp.

"The train has left, it's too late to write and analyze something. the developers are confident in their delayed effects for the class"

Foggernauts spells and passives continued to be tweak up until Feca revamp was released, same for Feca until Masqueraiders revamp was released, and Masqueraiders until Xelors were released. There's no reason to believe this can't continue up until we get the new Osamodas.

The purpose of my post is to continue to provide feedback that I hope will be heard, regardless of whether or not the developers actually listen or not. I do not understand the purpose of your reply? Why are you trying to discourage this? What do you hope to achieve by complaining that the developers do not pay attention?

5 -6
Score : 3100

 

9Nectum9|2021-04-23 18:30:45
everything has already been said. why repeat the obvious 100 times. 



As I recall, you and Reg would prefer there to be an on-demand push, or a push trigger. The contents of this post works with the spirit of intended delayed effect, only to pick a different timing of delay, of which the only mention in the beta discord I recall is to move Sinistro’s AP buffing timing. The contents of the post focus on a different aspect that can be improved on each time, and said without vitriol towards the developer, their vision of xelor, or their work ethic. You are shifting the goalpost to suit your needs of an argument.
 

 
9Nectum9|2021-04-23 18:58:53

just what's the point if there are no comments from the development team.
I and now it's too late. at least there was no comment that Xelor will receive more changes. 
after the last fix, there were three big topics on improving Xelor and silence. 
why waste time on tons of text if there is no feedback.
players have already said 100 times that the new xelor only works halfway. 
 



If I may quote Siu directly from the beta post:

"By satisfying, I mean that we also need to watch over the Xelor for weeks, months of playtests on real servers to have a complete and final opinion on the class.

Of course, there will necessarily be tweaks, and iterations to this class, in the future. It's the "usual" cycle of revamps and balancings, classes are to be continually balanced.

If the team updated a beta this week or last week, we wouldn't have benefited a lot from it."


The beta no longer served its purposes, because we were making a lot of suggestions on the direction we want from Xelor, which the team no longer wishes to address, rather they want playtesting results on the Xelor that they have designed.

This means that feedback after the revamp hit the live servers is equally important. Reg thinks the developers need to be more transparent about their intentions, otherwise feedback will be pointless. I agree that intentions need to be transparent, but I don't agree that feedback at this point in time serves no purpose.

That is the point of this thread. The "strike while the iron is hot" timeframe has not expired yet.

YOUR argument was that everything has been said already... which I also don't agree, because every thread made so far was analysing a different aspect of the revamped Xelor with little overlap. The developer's silence is irrelevant - these aspects of Xelor that needs improving still needs to be said, and whether or not they adopt it is up to them, not me. 
2 -3
Score : 9397
  • it is not only mine and his needs. I can name a lot of players who need a push in the current turn
and
  • dial still needs a buff as Xelor survivability too
  • summons "weird" to say the least
  • clock and other delayed effects also need revision
just what's the point if there are no comments from the development team.
I attach Reg words
it was important to talk about it during testing. everyone was talking about different things, and now it's too late. at least there was no comment that Xelor will receive more changes. 
after the last fix, there were three big topics on improving Xelor and silence. 
why waste time on tons of text if there is no feedback.
players have already said 100 times that the new xelor only works halfway. 
 
6 -2
Score : 9397

ok, sorry, but I meant something completely different. that a huge amount of text is meaningless without feedback. because we can think of a million improvements, but why waste so much effort without feedback.
I would really like to know at least some news about the opinion of the developers about the state of Xelor now. as I said in another post there are a lot of cool things they came up with. but there are also sharp corners that can be made less sharp. I respect their work and time and I have an active booster, which means that I hope for positive changes and feedback.
sorry if it seemed harsh. I didn't mean it

4 -1
Score : 507

You know what's funny? 

I asked Siu about delayed effects one time.

He said that to him it's logical a time mage class having delayed effects.

Now, think with me: 

You are a time mage, you can manipulate time, because of that you now can create skills based on time manipulation, which kind of skills would you try to developer?

> Ones that you have to WAIT  for the efffect resolve

>Ones that you can control WHEN they can trigger and how?

The first one, ladys and gentlemen, is the actual xelor, and the second one is the previous version.

I still can't understand how they considered keep things that way, the previous Xelor could control when they would activate by spending AP,  I really can't understand why a fair trade like that was removed. 


 

2 0
Score : 3593

I think delayed damage is a good fit for a time mage, but it should be much stronger then just regular damage, because you are giving the enemy a whole extra turn to act

1 0
Score : 3100

In truth there are a few thing from other classes that are more thematic of time manipulation

Sacrier's sanguine heart - changes the timing and distribution of damage taken

Hupper’s wall of energy - floor trap to stop movement ("stop time")

Sadida’s Prayer - recover WP over time

Eliotrope’s prevention - applies a state to rollback death

In truth there are some spells that will be improved by imitating aspects of other coded mechanisms

Momentary Permutation to act like Rogue’s Escapist - the Dial will swap with the location of the Xelor’s last summon, rather than the Xelor’s current position. This gives more versatility of the Dial’s placement, allows one trigger of Cog, facilitates Dial Master’s debuff placement and brings Sinistros to safety

Clock to act like Excess sublimation - instead of based on number of turns later, trigger is based on number of casts later. Essentially the spell can be something like, after casting, applies state = remaining AP of the Xelor, +1AP cost to all spells casted, and trigger # water damage X number of times after X spells casted, where X = state

Dial master to act like Enutrof's Fakin it - when Xelor dies on an hour cell, revive with 20%HP and destroy Dial. When Xelor dies on current hour, revive with 30%HP and destroy Dial.

Sandglass to act like Sadida's poisoned wind - at least do some kind of debuff on the enemy so that it serves more purpose to wait till the end of the Enemy's turn to trigger

Etc etc


 

1 0
Score : 9416

I like the idea of the auto-revive, seems neat for a glass-canon class now.
Also, one idea I always had for Clock was to instead of triggering all damage at the end, it could be like a continuoud damage.
Clock would have a fixed damage, for the sake of an easy math, lets say 120 damage. Each AP you have equals how many turns Clock lasts. And the total damage is DIVIDED by the turns!
So, if you use the clock with 10 AP, expect 12 damage for 10 turns. But if you use clock with 2AP, then its 60 dmg in 2 turns. This wya you can chose wheter to put a long-lasting effect on a long battle or wait until you barely have AP left and give the enemy a parting shot.

0 0
Score : 507
cody5#2705|2021-07-26 08:41:53
I think delayed damage is a good fit for a time mage, but it should be much stronger then just regular damage, because you are giving the enemy a whole extra turn to act



Cody, I respect your opinion, but I  totally disagree, time control is complete about precision, the last thing delayed effects are is precise. 

The previous one had delayed effect BUT he was free to trigger them by spending AP(in other words MANIPULATING TIME), whats the point of manipulating time if you can't even decide when you will trigger effects? 
Even if I hate CLOCK this spell has more precision than any other one, you can chose when it will trigger and how much damage it will do, that was a good design for a time mage, although it doesn't save the spell :v.
The other 2 are even worse. If they used the idea that Clock has, giving control to the player, in more delayed effects It would be extremely better in my opinion.
1 0
Score : 9397

The problem with this revamp is that in order to make the Xelor class truly interesting as it was before the revamp, devs needed to pay more attention and do a few mechanics, and not remove all combinations.
even Feca can activate delayed effects through a passive and its glyphs as a variant of delayed damage are much more powerful than, for example, Xelor's water poison which requires you to remove a lot of AP at a distance.
Clock useless and boring.  
All the delayed effects presented by Xelor are frankly weak.
When it comes to positioning, it needs precision, not delayed push. If the delayed effects mechanic is somehow rewarded this would give to Xelor more depth.
Before revamp removing 3 AP allowed you to get 1 AP and 5% heal. Xelor had incentive mechanics.
Now there is no encouragement, on the contrary, many tools work against you and this is very bad. 
Xelor is main damager, main positioning and manipulator with action points.
Well, the damage is good. But anyone can write big numbers. But not everyone can come up with interesting mechanics and combinations how was it before the revamp. Positioning and support still need mechanics or additional tools or tweaks in spells. 
Xelor didn’t deserve to delete so many things in identity. 
My message to developers can be boiled down to the phrase that if you want to do something well, you need to pay more attention to it. 
 

4 0
Score : 3593

 

xXDarkTurboXx#9686|2021-07-30 01:48:49

cody5#2705|2021-07-26 08:41:53
I think delayed damage is a good fit for a time mage, but it should be much stronger then just regular damage, because you are giving the enemy a whole extra turn to act




Cody, I respect your opinion, but I  totally disagree, time control is complete about precision, the last thing delayed effects are is precise. 

The previous one had delayed effect BUT he was free to trigger them by spending AP(in other words MANIPULATING TIME), whats the point of manipulating time if you can't even decide when you will trigger effects? 
Even if I hate CLOCK this spell has more precision than any other one, you can chose when it will trigger and how much damage it will do, that was a good design for a time mage, although it doesn't save the spell :v.
The other 2 are even worse. If they used the idea that Clock has, giving control to the player, in more delayed effects It would be extremely better in my opinion.

I think you are mixing up "precision" with "flexibility".
The only unprecise part about delayed damage is that you can't be sure if an enemy will die from it since it might heal out fo the kill-range of the spell.
Choosing how mayn turns later something will trigger is more about flexibility then precision, if you ask me.

And yes I agree, the current xelor has much less flexibility with their spell then the old one, but personally I think that is fine as long as they are compensated with power on those effects (and maybe a bit more range flexibility because now we have even tighter range on spells and more limited mobility spells then before)
0 -1
Score : 3100

Siu had two problems with delayed spells with trigger- the binding of a trigger to an elemental spell, resulting in spell deck constraints, and having no point in the spell being delayed if you can trigger it on the same turn.

For the former problem, the problem is solved  simply by the third bar spells. in fact, Time Theft can already be used for a once per turn trigger of various effects e.g. of Hourglass, Clock, the teleport of Momentary Permutation, Debuff of Dial Master, Shrivelling’s damage, Desync’s AP granting or Underhand.

Clock can remain a once per turn spell casted in melee that costs 1WP that gives one stack, and you stack UP instead of the state going DOWN the less AP you have. Then you release it with Time Theft.

Desync can be changed to stack up to a number of times and is only released when you use Time Theft.

You could even go one step further and let Time Theft trigger 1 instances of increased range for Dust, or create a state on an enemy from casting Dark Bolt that only triggers rebound damage after casting Time Theft.

Instead of Hourglass triggering at the end of the enemies' turn, it doesn't trigger naturally, and you can stack up to 3 times to reduce radius by 2 times. Then you release using Time Theft, and the higher the stack the higher the damage.

Cogs can also trigger each time Time Theft is casted in addition to when teleported, and Sinistros can have their effects triggered upon use of Time Theft, rather than once at the beginning of the Xelor's turn.

For the latter problem, I understand Siu’s argument, so the point of the thread was to go along with the spirit of that by discussing other possible trigger timing for delayed spells that makes the spells viable, rather than the current dead spells they are.

Both are ways to solve current issues of the Xelor. I honestly prefer Time Theft being a universal switch, but since Siu prefers the latter, having delayed spells, and necessitating delay by very nature, the effect should at least be worth the delay. 

So far this is not true for Hourglass, Desync, Underhand, Sinistro, Premonition. Even Suspension 's stabilising effect is more hurtful than helpful considering the timing of when it ends. There's a lot of changes that can be made to the trigger timings of spell effects and passives

 

2 -1
Score : 2038
yes, but he made a passive for Feca, which use absolutely all Feca to activate delayed effects and immediately give buffs / shields.
Have you seen in the game at least one feca that uses delayed effects without this passive? lol 
I do not agree that these problems are serious. the Xelor class must be able to activate all of its delayed effects through passive or spells.
Xelor normally existed with the ability to activate delayed action points, delayed push and delayed damage, and many used these effects without activating this turn. It is important to note that these tools were not basic, because delayed damage was often only used in pvp (Xelor Excess build). No more now Excess Xelors. 
Delayed Action Points (Rollback) - Xelors also not always used in the current turn. And now no more 10 AP builds. coz after revamp AP = WP. 
Underhand made an accurate push and could teleport to ANY cell of the dial, and now it only does delayed push. This is terrible, because the Xelor class is not only about damage but also about positioning. Limiting and cutting off the ability of Xelor tools is bad.
All I see is that with the identity of Xelor spells cannot be simple. Otherwise, we get a class whose elements are torn from each other.
Previously, Xelor could give AP IMMEDIATELY to an ally, attacking the enemy (3AP) and even give AP to an ally, when Xelor remove AP. Everything that Xelor did was connected and harmonious. And now we are dealing with tools that are not related to each other.
 
2 -2
Score : 3593

I mean I do like the idea of being abe to stack some effects and triggering them later, since there really isn't any class that does that (I guess maybe panda, but dizzy is weird).
It's a way more interactive delayed effect instead of "just trigger it on the same turn" which misses the point of delayed effects (just use a damage spell if you want immediate damage, don't add pointless spell combos to do the same thing), especially if it's STRONGER THEN THE DELAYED EFFECT (looking at you old distortion). Immediate damage should never be stronger then delayed damage since giving enemies more time is a huge tempo loss.

Tempo of spells:
Immediate damage - Max tempo, no downsides
End of your turn - still basically max tempo, slightly tricky
Beggining of target turn - still great tempo since it's only interupted by maybe a heal from a faster enemy, best used on enemy that goes right after you for max tempo (really bad on some bosses that become invincible every turn since this apparently triggers before delayed damage, making this useless)

End of target turn - bad tempo, since the target can heal or armour out of the kill range, also if it moves might change the range which uses a different mastery
Beginning of your turn - worst tempo, but good for setup, basically is like saving AP for your next turn

So according to this, the worse the tempo of a spell is, the higher the base damage should be.
Of course this is slightly offset by indirect damage usually having a slightly lower base since it bypasses armour (and can be buffed by ruin but I don't think spells shoud ever be balanced around sublimations), but the point still stands that low tempo spells should have much higher damage.

1 -1
Score : 3100

The timings you've mentioned involve turn flow which will always come to pass, but there are also additional choices, such as conditional triggers-

-Upon action that would spend MP, before action occurs
-After action that uses MP is performed
-Upon action that would spend AP, before action occurs
-Upon targeting an entity, before action occurs
-After action that uses AP is performed
-When an entity targets an ally
-Upon receiving damage
-When target pushed/pulled
-When target is teleported
-Upon collision
-When a crit occurs

For example, no one throughout the entire beta period suggested Sinistro trigger the same way as Cog-upon being teleported. That sort of escaped our attention didn't it?

There are even less universal triggers-
-When a target gains armour
-When a target is healed
-When a target gains or loses %DI
-When a target does not lose HP after being damaged
-When a target gains or loses FoW
- On consumption of WP
 -On death
-

0 0
Score : 274

It's really odd to me that Xelor's have all these delayed abilities, but hardly any defensive abilities to delay their death or to delay damage.

No seriously, out of all the games I've ever played that had classes or skill trees with temporal manipulation, most have at least some sort of delayed damage dampering effect or a delayed storing damage effect, a delayed execution on targets when they don't raise their hp back above critical that gives you back health/resources on their death, contingency/precognition, or make a temporal clone/fugue to split damage.

Xelor has none of these defensive abilities and it's just so weird that other classes get these mechanics instead.

 

2 0
Score : 9397

welcome to Xelor revamp XD
before this Xelor could restore himself if he successfully took action points (5% HP for 3 AP) and had a unique resurrection in the game - mummification, but they removed everything and made a class that can just do damage
I die every time I analyze and reflect on what has been done...and I am very sad to play this..."xelor" 
 

2 0
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