Class Revamp 2020 - Xelor

Xelors now do good damage and their dial is just a great spell (mostly because it's so good - it has no downsides, so it could be seen as "every Xelor depends on their dial"). Though just because it has no downsides doesn't mean it should be nerfed. Removing the Xelor's good damage to something mediocre to make the Xelor more versatile - I disagree with that, you could improve the mechanics that the Xelor already has/ make new ones to make it more versatile. Meaning you could still keep the high damage or choose to be support. 

I do like their new feature of controlling time and having double the wakfu.  Hopefully, that feature gets implemented well.

Hi wakfu dev! Firstly, I completely agree that there are few passive abilities for a class. Adding new passive abilities would make gameplay more variable, for example, play as a Xelor like summoner (Sinistro and Hydrand). I do not play for the summoner, but for some reason this is not enough for many pll who is playing for Xelor. 
I do not agree that the dial has no downsides. Wakfu is being spent on his call. You do not think that Xelor is at level 200 need to do dial once in a battle? Mobs do not stand still and we need to constantly move. Bosses hight lvl easily destroy the dial. 
Otherwise, I’m interested in trying the new Xelor ~Р.S. Mechanical removal initsitivy misleading because Xelor not remove  it. and I really liked the phrase by Grook66 : You don't have to weaken their strong points to make them versatile (if done wrong, this could make the class overpowered).

Few questions:

• How often do xelors move from their dial? Wouldn't the WP cost be prohibitive since you'd want to move closer to attack and then move back to stay out of enemy range, aka spending at least 2WP every single turn?
• What would this do for devotion if allies are on the dial?
• Why get rid of AOE from the Water branch? If you wanted to be DD, you'd be forced to go fire and then pick between melee or distance since it's inefficient to go fire/water and stat AOE for fire with ST for water.
• What happens to mechanics like sinistro and hydrand? While their current form technically fits the desired paradigm (fire-dmg/water-debuff), what if they became actives instead of elemental spells and thus 2 new elemental spells could be created?
• If air is for mobility, then would people pick air spells for their utility but only get 2-ele gear? This seems a little weird to me.
• Having 2x the WP that other classes have seems like it'd make for much harder balancing considering other classes usually use WP spells for damage.

rip xelor mains

There's a Monk dungeon that every time you spend a WP you take a lot of damage, make a dungeon impossible or a massive disadvantage to a xelor player.

I wholeheartedly DISAGREE on using WP to move on the dial, it makes you too dependant on the WP recovery mechanic you want to force on it. Instead just make it cost 2mp instead of 1, I wouldn't mind it, same goes for moving the hour everytime you move, thats too confusing, moving the hour every change of turns however, makes MUCH more sense. If you want to nerf the dial, first: ADMIT IT!! You want ot nerf it, not make it different, funny or diverse, just confess you find it OP and want to nerf it. Be honest with us for once. Also, on high-level dungeons, most bosses can destroy the dial every odd turn anyway. Instead, why not change the dial to be indestructable BUT only last 3 turns (similar to fogger's rails). This is enough time to recover WP if you play well but also makes you strategize better when to use it.
making Water branch ST is also a contradiction to the very ESSENCE of Xelors being mostly AoE DPSs, we already have Cras for that ST style, thank you very much.

The changes Xelor REALLY need:
-Reposition of Dial, Sinistros and Hydrants (or temporary presence so you can reposition once it's gone). Also, Hydrants need it's friendly fire removed.
-Better use of AP removal rather than just be a gimmick for lv1-40 players.
-A mechanic more independent of the Dial such as increasing the range of Tempus Fugit to equal the Dial-less mobility.
-Creation of teleporting glyphs without needing the dial, even if limited to allies only.
-Regen WP if Dial is destroyed.
-Different bonuses on the dial's current hour instead of just a damage boost.
-Revamp on Mumification. Reviving in the game is limited to a few classes, and Xelor's rev is too discouraging to use because of the 1/3 of HP lost on 3 turns, meaning without a healer, your revived target is on a death row anyway, and since reviving is limited once per battle and linked to the reviver's life, these limitations are more than enough to make any form of revival balanced, Mummification needs it's DoT REMOVED.

Here is my proposed Revamp:
-Dial: Now indestructable, lasts for 3 turns, once it's gone, there is a 2-turns cooldown before a new dial can be created. Hour starts where you cast or real server hour (because I think this is a really clever gimmick), changes every turn. Casting Timekeeper on one of the dial's inactive hour will make it active and cost 1WP.
   -When casting a spell over the selected hour, your damage will improve 2.5% x hour. (2.5% on I hour, 30% on XII hours).
   -Visualy, I would update the new dial to no longer have the pointy tower in the center, but rather the Xelor's symbol with it's hand pointing the active hour or just spinning on it's own.
-Tempus Fugit: +2 range if not on a Dial hour.
-Sinistro and Hydrant: if cast over an existing Hydrant/Sinistro, you instantly delete it for 1AP, new one is cut 1AP of it's cost.

i never played xelor but this idea not bad ...
Time steal- i would like to see if xelors can stop  mob(s) by  dial at turn.
xelor moves on a number and casts time steal and loses ap amount on dial,
if spended ap on trial is  higher than randomize numbers (1..12)  ,target loses this spended ap and 
xelor restores randomized ap.examples
xelor at 12, randomize number 1 - xelor and mob loses 12 ap ,xelor restores 1 ap 
xelor at 5 , randomize number  3  - xelor and mob loses 5 ap ,xelor restores 3 ap 
xelor at 12, randomize number 12 - xelor and mob loses 12 ap ,xelor restores 0 ap 
xelor at 2, randomize number 5  - xelor loses 2 ap ,xelor restores 0 ap 
xelor at 12, randomize number 11 - xelor and mob loses 12 ap ,xelor restores 11 ap 

Time Hand - 
xelor and allies move on a number and xelor casts time hand and lose ap amount on dial,
all allies and xelor recieve % damage inflected of dial number where they spot on for their next turn,
all allies lose ap amount of dial number where they spot on,
example:
xelor spot on number 12,
ally 1 spot on number 3
ally 2  on number 1 etc.
xelor loses 12 ap (and probably skips this turn) and waits next turn. next turn xelor's all damage will be included by %12. ally 1 %3 and ally 2 %1.






 
 

Im not a xelor player . But may i enjoy ur the cheer choas of the complains based on what we could call a 15 min brain storm of ideas for rework 

To be honest, i hate those changes, wp to move around the dial? Hell no, dial isn't that op to be nerf-worthy, it's very fragile and as people before said most of mobs/bosses can 1-shot it or kill it in 1 turn effortlesly. 
>removing aoe from water branch....... what? we already have a ton of dd's that can do st damage
>fire branch for dmg, this is ok
>air branch for mobility, this is ok too
Slowdown mechanic, it didn't even come live but i already don't like it.
Xel is fine, it might be very strong but why not make other characters stronger instead (probably) making it weaker?

Xelor haters caught wind of a major Xelor Nerf incoming, so they'll downvote anyone who's against the needlessly harsh Nerf.

 

Happy999|2019-12-14 12:07:00

Xelor haters caught wind of a major Xelor Nerf incoming, so they'll downvote anyone who's against the needlessly harsh Nerf.

i donnt care downvotes but i havent revamp xelor,just included buff spells.

Id like to see some more focus around Force of Will on Xelor
Maybe taking less damage if you have more FoW than the target
And dealing more damage if you have less FoW than the target

Some more usage out of Sinistros would be good aswell as they didnt scale well with the new updates

Im just throwing ideas out here though, as there is very very little to go off from the devblog

 

Granthese|2019-12-14 06:29:38

The Monk's punishment for spending WP doesn't apply for passive loss of WP, take for example Eliatropes when the enraged is active and they lose WP per damage spell, yet you don't take the punishment.

Why did this get 8 downvotes? He's right.

Granthese|2019-12-14 06:50:56

1. making Water branch ST is also a contradiction to the very ESSENCE of Xelors being mostly AoE DPSs, we already have Cras for that ST style, thank you very much.
...
2. Creation of teleporting glyphs without needing the dial, even if limited to allies only.
...
3. Revamp on Mumification. Reviving in the game is limited to a few classes, and Xelor's rev is too discouraging to use because of the 1/3 of HP lost on 3 turns, meaning without a healer, your revived target is on a death row anyway, and since reviving is limited once per battle and linked to the reviver's life, these limitations are more than enough to make any form of revival balanced, Mummification needs it's DoT REMOVED.
...
Here is my proposed Revamp:
4. Dial: Now indestructable, lasts for 3 turns, once it's gone, there is a 2-turns cooldown before a new dial can be created. Hour starts where you cast or real server hour (because I think this is a really clever gimmick), changes every turn. Casting Timekeeper on one of the dial's inactive hour will make it active and cost 1WP.
...
5. Visualy, I would update the new dial to no longer have the pointy tower in the center, but rather the Xelor's symbol with it's hand pointing the active hour or just spinning on it's own.
...
6. Sinistro and Hydrant: if cast over an existing Hydrant/Sinistro, you instantly delete it for 1AP, new one is cut 1AP of it's cost.

1. Water branch currently only has 1 AoE spell? Not sure what you are talking about?
2. Doesn't tempus fugit already do that?
3. What.
4. I'd personally just make it linked to the caster's HP like in beta, but I do like the hour changing every turn, being linked to real time is a bit too meta for me
5. Honestly a visual revamp of the dial would be sweet, the current sundial design just feels weird
6. OR just make it that casting time control on them instantly kills them, that would be good enough for me, but I hope they expand sinistro mechanics

Anyway here's some ideas for potential xelor mechanics I've been thinking about.
-Replacing hydrants with just sinistros, but they are summoned passive and have to be wound up with spells (cost only 2 AP) and have charges instead of HP
-water spells heal him and make him apply slowdown stacks
-fire spells make him deal damage in an AoE
-air spells make him move forward and stabilise (like the robots in the frozen tower)

-Air being a more melee focused branch, using the slowdown stacks for different effects instead of AP removal (like delayed damage, pushing, teleportation, etc.)
-Time anomaly: a glyph that generates slowdown stacks whenever an enemy moves across them using MP (like harebourg's trap in season 3 of the anime)
-Scrap armour: destroys all allied mechanisms in an AoE and gives him armour equivalent to the number of destroyed mechanisms
-Temporal clones: Xelor teleports 3 cells in a direction and spawns 3 identical clones in the other 3 directions, if anyone damages the clones they disappear and generate a slowdown stack
-Dial home (passive): Xelor can cast spells from the dial's location as well as his own, but any damage taken by the dial is transfered to him
-Borrowed time: Gives you 2 AP but you loose 3 AP and some FoW next turn (once per turn)
-Frozen air: water spell that consumes slowdown stacks to apply a MP poison to enemies
-Ontological inertia (passive): whenever you teleport, you get 1 MP

Some issues i foresee with the proposed changes boil down to following:
The xelor would regain his wakfu points by removing ap from a target. Now its not known if this is gonna be paired with normal or sub-normal damage, but its something to keep in mind that in your average pvm content ap reduction is worthless. Most enemies and bosses seem to be designed in a way that they need very little ap to cast all their attacks and thus making ap removal a mechanic that cannot really be (ab)used to your benefit. Now there are maybe some exceptions that come to my mind, namely shadofang and the ethernal dungeon boss. But in the average case the xelor will not remove ap from the enemies, but actually from his dial to buff ap of other teammates and to keep the force of will of enemies lower for something that actually has use; mp removal. 
To conclude: there is a proposed new core mechanic of xelor and it will be important to regain wakfu points in order to use it, but if the way of regaining these wp points is paired with shallow damage it will be a forced and 'useless' mechanic (for pvm mind you) to regain wp. 

For the fire branch it might be a bad thing to have casting and range constraints for it is seemingly  (for now) the only way xelor can deal damage. For now it seems like a block to the current use of a xelor, which is ofcourse its direct damage. Its also something people are probably afraid for, because the devblog makes it seem like the changes are gonna take a lot of firepower away from the xelor. 

The air branch focusing more on mobility is actually interesting and i am curious to see if it will work better as it currently does. 

my biggest fear is that the average pvm players will have to make a mono element xelor to be remotely effective, but then still are held back by casting and range constraints. 

 

cody5|2019-12-16 12:02:00

While on one hand I agree, even if you move on the dial twice per turn, that still gives you 6 turns of movement with 12 WP and that's without ever using your slowdown stacks, outside of boss fights, battles don't really last more then  turns in my experience.

My 2 cents, perhaps you have yet to play long enough to fully gasp what late game is like. 12 WP 6 Turns is like saying 1+1=2. But in the real world, it's closer toThere's a lot more real world variable that requires on the spot decision making, say saving ally, moving certain targets by pushing or teleport...etc. There's a lot more to Xelor that just moving forth to deal damage, then back, before ending turns. Even at 14/5 or 13/6 build, I still experience the constraints, hoping that I have more MP for some leeway, at the moment, everything has to be perfectly planned and executed with zero mistake, all under 30 seconds. Now put that in context with the 12WP downgrade, with the current rate or WP regeneration, I can easily burn through all those WP in 2 turns in movement alone, and that's not even taking other Spells that require WP into consideration. (Devotion & Desync).

Simple scenario, an ally got pushed into a death tile by enemies due to poor RNG, a simple saving combo would be Self ATC, move up to teleport ally closer to you (due to limited 7 Cell Teleport nerf, hence needing to perform twice opposed to once), before teleporting said ally again further back into a safe spot, before moving back yourself. Normally that alone would be a 12AP 3MP combo. In some cases of saving two ally or moving a mob / boss along the way, 17 or 22AP 5~6MP combo. Now change that to the new 12WP system, it's easy to see how these movement can easily burn through all those WP in a moment notice, as none of those move will generate WP. Such scenario are not uncommon too, many dungeon incorporate death tile, RNG Mobs push & teleport mechanics like Sugnuf and Robowl. In some dungeon like Xelorium past, you have even have to Revive before teleporting (no longer able to corpse teleport nerf), another added layer of complexity. I could ramble forever, but simply put, Xelor is more than just a damage machine, and dial is more than a forth and back range extension tool. The current iteration suggested on Devblog is generally downgrade for the Xelor gameplay experience, making life harder than it already is, a.k.a, hard nerf.

and this is only the MP to WP required for Dial movement rant, don't get started with the other "improvement" suggested in Devblog. It's like all the collective suggestions made by actual players who've played the game the last 4 years since the last actual sensible Xelor revamp, thrown out the window all together. But why do I even bother now. The progression system is screwed by RNG, my server population is screwed region lock (Wakfu APAC to Wakfu Asia for those who've played long enough to know), feels like none of the feedback actually matters.

The devs probably made up their mind long before publishing this Devblog, and giving the illusion of choice to make players feel like their voice matters. Speaking as a dev & creator, I understand how easy and exciting it is to get carried away with your own project, the sense of having full control over the visions and ways you'll shape your creation, and watching how the world reacts to it. The sense of power & in control.

- Reg

While yes I know most xelors use the dial a lot more then 2 moves per turn, this is based on the current xelor mechanics and if they just suggested to do the WP dial and no other changes, I agree that would be a terrible idea, but my point is that we don't know what the xelor gameplay will be post-revamp.
Personally I'd just make them use AP to teleport instead of WP, it would be more thematic imo.

Honestly I just wish we would get some alpha experiments on the beta server to try like how they did with ouginak, so we could actually have something to complain about, instead of this ephemeral "official theorycrafting".

 

legendaryxelor|2019-12-14 22:46:12

Xelor revive Mummification is true to the Lore / TV Series. Xelor / Time Mage simply Roll Back time and reanimated a corpse (Nox reference). However, it's a Mummy / walking Corpse, that's technically walking pile of dead meat decomposing, hence the -33% HP per turn, essentially a ticking time bomb. Also, the "Full  HP" only works if Xelor is on Full HP too, even so, no matter how much the "Full HP" is, the target will still suffer a fixed -33% HP bleed every turn.

Actually it's 33% of the heal they recieved, not of their max HP, so if you rez them with low hp, you can heal them and they won't loose much

"The Dial does not have a drawback/No Xelor would play without it"

I consider the Dial an integral part of the Wakfu Xelor design - As integral as an Eliotrope's portals, an Osa's summons, a Masqueraider's masks or a Panda's barrel. Instead of making it more optional and penalizing to use, you should make it even more integral to the all-round mechanics of the Xelor.

Simply make it a third bar spell and balance the Xelor around the concept that he needs the dial for his proper worth.

Using Wakfu for moving around however feels terrible and unintuitive - Please come up with a different solution for that.



As for the AP drain mechanic - I personally don't believe in this mechanic working anymore in Wakfu, and it should be revised entirely: It is incredibly unclear when AP drain actually results in something worthwhile, and more often than not, it is only noticeable when being capable to do so in large chunks. More often than not however, AP drain on enemies results in.. well.. nothing!

My own advise is to turn AP drain into Damage Drain, weakening enemies' damage and/or healing output. Sure, enemies would still take all their actions at all times (No change really there btw..), but at least every point of AP drain would hamper their output noticeably.

 

Wait, I just realized, did they say anything about the tick-tock mechanic? are the keeping it or dumping it?

Also I was thinking, fire spells could apply an AP poison or a glyph that deals damage whenever someone uses AP while standing on it.

 

cody5|2019-12-17 08:12:45

How about using AP to move around the dial?

Better and having more synnergy, but I'd still prefer for the teleporting to be tied to a Skill when alternate pools are being used for moving around. Left-click moving should simply always use movement to me. I wouldn't like getting used to weird exceptions using more important resource pools I wouldn't want to be wasteful on.

(Also, why doesn't the quote button on a reply add to the reply..)