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[Suggestion] Simple fix for Hydrant and Sinistro

By MiiiiKy - MEMBER - August 07, 2019, 10:47:05

So any Xelor player can tell that Hydrant and Sinistros aren't really worthy it (Maybe Sinistro for PvP but it's situational), they have very little HP which makes mobs destroy them quickly making them a bad investment of AP when you could had just attacked instead of summoning and their damage is terrible so I have a simple solution for the problem and I would like if Ankama actually done it so those could be considered into decks.

1) The damage problem is because both of these take Melee Mastery and, as we all know, Xelors won't invest in Melee (Except the Sinistro but he has to hit from the further distance possible) so I offer three possibilities to "fix" this:
- a) Make these summons damage the same way Osamoda's summons do, 80% of all of the Xelor's masteries into Elemental Mastery or
- b) The same way Rogue's passive, Scope, make bombs damage be based on Distance Mastery perhaps the passive Mechanics Specialist could also have that effect for Hydrants and Sinistros no matter the distance these gadgets are from the enemy or
- c) Make the Mastery based on the Xelor's distance from the enemy, not the summon but I would rather preferer options A and B but I would still like to give this as an option in case balancements need to be made.

2) The HP problem could be easily fixed by, again, buffing the Mechanics Specialist build to increase summons HP (or just out right increase their base HP), both of these only have 10% of the Xelor's max HP which is very pathetic.. My Lv169 (nice!) Xelor summons a Sinistro with a little less than 1000HP.. The exact increase is debatable but I feel like anything between 100% and 200% increase would be ideal so the investment of spending AP on them would be payed off as the turns go.

I feel like if these two changes were made more Xelors would consider placing them in their decks and, frankly, I kinda WANT to use them but it's just a waste of Deck space right now.

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I wish Xelor's could make Sinistros viable.. Maybe by giving some synergy to them like, let's say, casting Frostbite on a Sinistro makes the spell shot through him with a 10% damage increase or hitting an enemy that was previously tagged by a Hydrant makes an extra tick or damage or so..

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Sound good, actually!
I mean, Hydrant already have the Dust combo but nothing around Sinistros yet.. 

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I really wish sinistros (and hydrants I guess) would be more viable on xelors, they are their most iconic summon.
In dofus they ave sinistro, hydrants and dials all viable.
In krosmaga there's a whole build about summoning them
In waven, they have a ton of synergistic spells and upgrades for them
Why not in wakfu?

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Funny you brought up Waven, the whole reason I made this post is because I like to play as the Xelor that has her whole build based on Sinistros (the one in my profile picture) and I would ADORE if I could do the same in Wakfu yet doing so would actually hold me down instead of helping..

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i would rly like that we could move the summons , i would also add a idea i had playing krosmaga,
what if you could put a hidruilla or sinistro ON the sphere, and then all of the hours of xelors are basically a extension of the summon , for enemies that step in xelors domain

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just to point out that option A is ridiculous. I still rant about how osa's 80% of anything mastery is unfair as fack. 
Berkzer and backstab on any situation for your summons? Hell yea. Even if they are 1.3x more abundant than the rest? Oh sweat small details please.
Anyhow this is not osa talk.

Options B and C are nice. I would like for xelor summons to get a bit more love - at least getting to do what they should, in damage terms.

And with second point, full agree. I would even go ahead and try asking for a second summon passive, reducing the damage they take from allies, raising their hp (like you mentioning), adding effects to them or improving their effects (stacks and ap removal). 

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hydrant sinistro is actually an op build

(in french)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF2MqePv-1U&t=404s
 

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Thats not true. What's OP there is hydradust.

Both builds have amazing potential ofc.
Sinistro has the most possible damage output if you have 9 sinistros in field, and they hit twice. But thats never going to happen exactly because they are so squishy and cost too much to setup (needs 2/3 turns to place them all).
On the other hand, Hydradust /hydrant is good but needs  whole turn of setup. And a positioner to cluster mobs for you. And then, hydrants wont be there for afterwards...

And they scale with weird damage, thats what we're complaining here.

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You want xelor to become a summoner, but at the same time he may lose other mechanics. Your idea is dictated by the charm of other games, not meaningless meanings. Wakfu is NOT DOFUS OR WAVEV
 

WAKFU BUILD XELOR HYDRUILLE - YOUTUBE

 

Exxo-Turn|2019-09-08 04:09:08
I'm not asking new summons, ravamp or anything. I'm just asking a slight improval on some build options that don't run out do to strange choices that came from early game development.
Surely Sinistros just taking all your mastery was a simple choice made with all summons. I doubt they wished it to hit 0 on most stuff because all xelors are mostly distance.

Also, the video as argument doesn't make any sense. You are excluding prep work, buffs, team play and summing it all in a shot. It's like saying huppermages are OP because their light skills are strong after they passed a whole turn stacking stuff, then showing a hupper buffed to the bone doing a 20k shot.
If hydrants were used more than once, or had a chance of standing more than 1 turn on field, then it would be a more viable build. Not one that needs a whole team built around it.
I did mention before that hydrant has amazing potential. I use it on some level ranges. So does sinistro. But I know on both cases Im underperforming, or it only works because I made a team for it.

Lastly - even that we were not even asking to copy or bring stuff from other games - what's wrong with getting the charm of other games? We know Wakfu is not dofus or Waven. But what would even be the problem of wishing some other class options that are possible in the universe?

Im not sure if your comment was directed at me, at Miiiiky or both of us. But I took it as directed to both of us and anyone that wishes to improve summoner possibilities on xelor.


The game will not be adapted to your desires. It is you who come to play, not the game that comes to you. Regarding nagging about summoning, most of these comments are from people who outplayed in Waven and Dofus. Video, argument because man have build based on SUMMON hydrant  and area dmg. Do you have any problems collecting things in the game? Stop breaking what is not broken. Xelor does not need to be right now summoner
I have been playing this class for more than five years and have an idea about all the changes. 
 
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I'm not asking new summons, ravamp or anything. I'm just asking a slight improval on some build options that don't run out do to strange choices that came from early game development.
Surely Sinistros just taking all your mastery was a simple choice made with all summons. I doubt they wished it to hit 0 on most stuff because all xelors are mostly distance.

Also, the video as argument doesn't make any sense. You are excluding prep work, buffs, team play and summing it all in a shot. It's like saying huppermages are OP because their light skills are strong after they passed a whole turn stacking stuff, then showing a hupper buffed to the bone doing a 20k shot.
If hydrants were used more than once, or had a chance of standing more than 1 turn on field, then it would be a more viable build. Not one that needs a whole team built around it.
I did mention before that hydrant has amazing potential. I use it on some level ranges. So does sinistro. But I know on both cases Im underperforming, or it only works because I made a team for it.

Lastly - even that we were not even asking to copy or bring stuff from other games - what's wrong with getting the charm of other games? We know Wakfu is not dofus or Waven. But what would even be the problem of wishing some other class options that are possible in the universe?

Im not sure if your comment was directed at me, at Miiiiky or both of us. But I took it as directed to both of us and anyone that wishes to improve summoner possibilities on xelor.

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9Nectum9|2019-09-08 01:04:18
The game will not be adapted to your desires. It is you who come to play, not the game that comes to you. Regarding nagging about summoning, most of these comments are from people who outplayed in Waven and Dofus. Video, argument because man have build based on SUMMON hydrant  and area dmg. Do you have any problems collecting things in the game? Stop breaking what is not broken. Xelor does not need to be right now summonerI have been playing this class for more than five years and have an idea about all the changes. 
 
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9Nectum9|2019-09-07 23:04:18
I have been playing this class for more than five years and have an idea about all the changes. 
 

What?

 
cawleerr|2019-09-09 09:34:54
for a off dmg class the dmg potential offered by hydrands is too good for xelor its only fair that it will be hard to use or die quickly or so .. im not saying that its perfect but the community have been complaining about too many stuff that isnt realy in its place  xelor dont  have  an easy way to deal dmg cause its not a main dd class .  overall the summons in wakfu have been underperforming  (osa summons showered with nerfs / sadida summons being pretty much useless )  hydrand playstyle is worth all the build up even with all its flaws .btw the build up argument is pretty wrong as both do get to deal dmg while building up its not like xelor just put the hydrands back behind him and  the huppermage spam 2 ap spells on empty cells . xelor do need tweeks but not i in in hydrangs or sinistros mainly . the summons are the least of the problems but i think a rework is comming soon  

I wouln't really count on it being soon, but yes it's coming eventually.

Also yes xelor is a DD class, their official roles are Damage, debuff and positioner.
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cawleerr|2019-09-09 07:34:54
for a off dmg class the dmg potential offered by hydrands is too good for xelor its only fair that it will be hard to use or die quickly or so .. im not saying that its perfect but the community have been complaining about too many stuff that isnt realy in its place  xelor dont  have  an easy way to deal dmg cause its not a main dd class .  overall the summons in wakfu have been underperforming  (osa summons showered with nerfs / sadida summons being pretty much useless )  hydrand playstyle is worth all the build up even with all its flaws .btw the build up argument is pretty wrong as both do get to deal dmg while building up its not like xelor just put the hydrands back behind him and  the huppermage spam 2 ap spells on empty cells . xelor do need tweeks but not i in in hydrangs or sinistros mainly . the summons are the least of the problems but i think a rework is comming soon  







As mentioned by cody, Xelor IS a DD. It's what it does best of it's roles. I can put off damage EASILY without hydrants.

It's easy to pick underperforming examples of summons. But overall they are all -useful-. Mask's double, Sadida's coney, Foggernaut's cybot, Sadida dolls (they are good overall your denial on them), Ougi's dog, Eca's Kitty, Rogue Cybot, Enu's Drheller even sram's double on desperate need of pushes. All summons in this game have pretty neat usage, yes they are not perfect either. Xelor's Sinistro has only body waste. Hydrants are only there to waste first turn and stack hydradust.

So... you are pretty much saying you would rather have xelor have an useless spell in deck (sinistro)? I mean the only ever uses it gets is decoy, because it doesn't scale right and dies as quick as hydrant but doesn't play on the end of your turn. It's inevitable xelor will be touched one day. Im not asking it to be in the near future. I would rather see Sinistro having opportunities to do something than remaining as a near useless spell. If you are so against that possibility, say you would rather see sinistro disappearing for some extra water spell, whatever.

And again, I do thing xelor is pretty solid. It's not in need of tweaks on other places, maybe some counterbalances due to willpower stuff and other classes being empowered. But Summons is where xelor is most underperforming on its skillset.

The community has been complaining about too many stuff because we've been wronged by the Ankama. And with no answer from them. Anyhow, this is more a discussion thread than a complaining thread.

Lastly, nectum, can you please stop downvoting with your 6 accounts everyone talking "against" you?
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It has been confirmed by the devs that Xelor will get a full rework, but no ETA (if you ask me Sadida and Fogger will be reworked first)

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Exxo-Turn|2019-09-09 17:24:59
Lastly, Nectum, can you please stop downvoting with your 6 accounts everyone talking "against" you?

Good afternoon again. Before you blame someone, you need to have evidence. How do the pros or cons relate to the topic of discussion? Do you like flood? rolleyes
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Exxo-Turn|2019-09-09 17:24:59
 Hydrants are only there to waste first turn and stack hydradust.

Rogues also do not BOOM in the first move. Aaaaaand? 
Exxo-Turn|2019-09-09 17:24:59
 So... you are pretty much saying you would rather have xelor have an useless spell in deck (sinistro)?

Sinistro is used in pvp. I often see on bf many xelors with this spell in deck. In general, thanks for the detailed comment. I agree that ability Sinistro could be improved in the future BUT not to the detriment of everything else. Sooner or later, better or worse can happen, we will wait. Since the developers plan...... to me it’s interesting to first look at their image before writing anything.

 
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Flood?
I think it's a bit OP because of that passive that gives it bonus damage if cast over a portal, so I don't really like it, but it's the only decent damage spell in water.

And yes I agree that hydrust is an interesting setup-payoff type of mechanic that I would love to stay in some form, you set up these mechanisms and they will empower you as long as they survive, kinda like earthquake sadida.
The difference with rogues is that rogue bombs have resistances, can be healed and have a passive that makes them tankier (but die when activated), while xelor only has that "can't kill hydrants with dust" passive.

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9Nectum9|2019-09-09 20:19:58

cody5|2019-09-09 21:50:07
The difference with rogues is that rogue bombs have resistances, can be healed and have a passive that makes them tankier (but die when activated), while xelor only has that "can't kill hydrants with dust" passive.


I commented Exxo-Turn...
Deck not endless
I don’t want to sacrifice other mechanics to make it fun to play as a summoner.
The point was that it was not a problem to inflict damage on the first turn. Want to do dmg in the first move? Please choose iop or fogger. Passive can be improved somewhat. And the mechanics with the initiative. And the xelors are well polished
 

Oh you misunderstood, I don't want to replace spells to make mechanisms more viable, just add a new special or at least a passive, so that those who want to do mechanisms can opt-in.
And yeah I agree, passives are unbalanced and initiative removal is stupid if it does nothing.
I wouldn't exactly call them polished tho, timekeeper is the weirdest spell.
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I do not agree. Timekeeper nice spell and xelor well polished.

Arguments:
- This ability does three things at once !!
- You can use it to teleport enemies or friends only for five ap.
- You can heal dial
- You can return AP (IT FREE) in Rollback
lol cody5 
What is bad here?
In battle, I often change my position for the dial, so I don’t need to heal him. But everything else does not require attention from the developers. (Of course, I dream that the dial will become an impenetrable fortress, but let's think soberly). Really replace the mechanics of the initiative and add a few new passives. But everything else is in order.
The past cannot be returned. In the past, xelors sinistro could move freely on the battlefield. Previously, eni could make a zombie mark and control one dead mob on the battlefield.Do not return time armour. The game moves forward and now in the present there are only a few minor fixes that xelor really needs. We already wrote about them in this thread.
I ask you to remain realistic and not to turn the class into the strongest and best in the game.
 
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Yes you are right, sinistro is usually used in PVP to remove ap. This is not always useful in 1vs1 but in 2vs2 or 3vs3 working good. 

Exxo-Turn|2019-09-10 07:34:09
Only chance of it paying off is due to AP removal (reason why it's used on PvP) or managing to last several turns. 

Exxo, our discussion topic sounds like "SIMPLE FIX FOR HYDRANT AND SINISTRO"
I support this (SIMPLE FIX),but without sacrificing other opportunities on xelors happy I'm glad that we found a common language and came to understand
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Exxo-Turn|2019-09-10 07:34:09
And I do understand your point, xelor is solid right now, it would be a shame to ruin it to add a slight edge on sinistros. 

​​​​​​​I like this idea.
Exxo-Turn|2019-09-10 07:34:09
 and I prefered when it had 3 hp and couldn't take more than 1 damage at a time - it lasted more.

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Exxo-Turn|2019-09-10 07:34:09
but I dislike the fact the hydrants are only used to die and setup next turn's hydradust, not much more. 

My main message is that everything should be a measure and we should not become weaker in other opportunities at Xelor after Simple Fix. 
 
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9Nectum9|2019-09-10 10:57:48
I do not agree. Timekeeper nice spell and xelor well polished.
Arguments:
- This ability does three things at once !!
- You can use it to teleport enemies or friends only for five ap.
- You can heal dial
- You can return AP (IT FREE) in Rollback
lol cody5 
What is bad here?
In battle, I often change my position for the dial, so I don’t need to heal him. But everything else does not require attention from the developers. (Of course, I dream that the dial will become an impenetrable fortress, but let's think soberly). Really replace the mechanics of the initiative and add a few new passives. But everything else is in order.
The past cannot be returned. In the past, xelors sinistro could move freely on the battlefield. Previously, eni could make a zombie mark and control one dead mob on the battlefield.Do not return time armour. The game moves forward and now in the present there are only a few minor fixes that xelor really needs. We already wrote about them in this thread.
I ask you to remain realistic and not to turn the class into the strongest and best in the game.
 

The point is it doesn't "do 3 things at once", it' literally 3 half-spells smooshed into one pointless mandatory spell.

The rollback trigger: You literally need this spell that does nothign else just to use the passive, this is bad design and even in the unlikely event that rollback doesn't get redesigned, should just be a 3rd bar spell, why do I have to use a spell slot just to use a passive??

Healing the dial: ...yeah noone does that, when you can resummon the dial for 2AP, why woudl you spend 2 AP to heal it for 10%?

Teleportation: Again, why do I have to run a spell that does nothing else to use the ability of a different spell? No other class need 3 spell slots (Dial, Underhand, Timekeeper) just to teleport someone and xelor is listed as "positioner" as one of his 3 main roles.

This spell is just as badly designed as sram's go-back or iop's hour of glory and both are getting changed next patch.
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see in the future 

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