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Score : 66

XELOR REWORK

By Nosteeeeeee - MEMBER - February 28, 2018, 09:18:31

Yeah. Xelor is kinda underwhelming. His AP removal kit should be upgraded. Any thoughts?

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Reactions 12
Score : 9001

I was thinking about it and xelor has so many weird interactions and outdated mechanics (looking at you initiative removal), so I had some ideas for new spell branches that would be thematically appropriate for a time magus (just by sheer volume, some of these ideas are bound to be good):

1. Krosmaga style AP reserve mechanics
Rollback is already almost identical to how you get an AP reserve in krosmaga, so I was thinking, why not make it more than just "spare AP"?
This could be joined with the time theft passive so you get "Time charges" whenever you steal AP from enemies and then the stored charges could either empower certain spells when it's over certain tresholds (like classy masquarader passive or krosmaga spells) or be used up to trigger certain bonus effects on spells (like eniripsa's contagion, masquarader's liberator or the old sacrier angrr).
This could also be tied AP giving mechanic based on charges, so you'd have to steal time to give time to allies (time is a valuable resource after all).

2. Timeline manipulation
Well the ultimate in reducing your enemy's "action output" is stunning them for one turn, but because it's so strong (especially in wakfu where certain classes can kill others in 1 turn) It's really hard to balance, this is why we have "mild stuns" as I call them - AP removal.
The problem with ap removal is that different classes (and especially monsters) are differently affected by ap loss, so it's not usefull against everything (especially when you sacrifice your damage output for it). This brings me to the point of having new "mild stuns" as a xelor.
My idea is based on the old "initiative removal" from the fire spells (which by this point does absolutely nothing) is to have it manipulate the timeline of the enemy hit by these spells.

If we were to remove initiative from an enemy enough that he would be pushed into the future past an ally, he would still have his turn but after said ally (so he would loose approximately 1/6th of his turn in a 6v6 match). This would obviously depend on how much initiative he has  as it would obviously take more initiative removal to push him all the way into the next turn slowly, making initiative a more useful stat again (and as a bonus give you an option to mess with the enemy turn order by pushing them past one another).
Also maybe pushing allies up the timeline could be a good alternative if you think messing with enemy turn order is too disruptive.

Alternatively, you could make it so xelor store all stolen initiative and when they store as much as an enemy has initiative, they can consume it all to stun him for one turn (which would probably take a number of turns to build up, depending on their initiative) so it's still about the same effectiveness as the other mild stuns. Or inversely, maybe if you stole enough initiative, you could take an extra turn instead.

3. Deja fu
Xelors don't have any melee type spells at the moment and I think this is a huge missed opportunity (and not just so they have wakfu hammers like nox).
This is why I suggest a new theme on time based martial arts (name borrowed from discworld series) that would involve punching the enemy over time (in all meanings of the word), could be a good air tree since air is focused on mobility (and apparently damage over time? it's a bit of a kitchen sink atm).
Some spell ideas:
Pushing over time (like current underhand) or one that triggers when the target casts a spell
Damage over time (like current distortion) or one that triggers whenever the target moves
AP poisons (kinda obvious, for a xelor)
Punching a target into the next turn (effectively like eniripsa's transcendence + a stun), would need some limitations obviously
A damage spell that removes AP when backstabbing (would combo well with dial mobility)
A spell that deals damage depending on the distance you traveled in a straight line this turn (or on the dial cells since that's teleportation)

4. Time warp glyphs
For a class that warps time in an area, we really don't have much spells that do that in a way that doesn't just equal explosions. Mostly was reminded of this with the time warp trap Harebourg made in wakfu season 3.
Some spell ideas:
Glyph that makes moving cost AP instead of MP
Glyph that makes casting spells on it cost 1 AP more
Glyph that reduces the damage of aoe spells (or alternatively spells cast trough the border of it)
Glyph that raises the willpower of anyone in it
Glyph that prevents teleportation to and from it

5. Summons with spell synergy
Let's face it, the current xelor summons scale terribly with their level, and with them being immobile, uncontrolable, non stabilised and not inheriting the caster's stats, we'd definetly need at least some synergy with xelor's spell to make them at least somewhat usefull, I have 2 diferent ideas for it.
Option A - Stronger summons
Basicaly make the summons stronger and give xelor some spell that can buff their summons, from giving them armour like sylargh, being able to instantly kill one for 0 AP, moving them (like eliatrope portals or dhrellers), increasing their damage or range and maybe giving them the ability to lock or something

Option B - Utility summons (hmm, this could totally be a passive that turns them into this)
The inverse, instead of them dealing damage they become more tanky and change how your spells interact with them, my idea:
Sinistro - Works like the ecaflip fleahopper glyph, each time an enemy uses AP in their area or has AP removed, they are attacked by the sinistro
Hydrand - Kinda works like the old eliatrope portals, extending the range of your linear spells if they are in your aoe (3 cells linearly in all directions, like their current aoe), but instead of extending it to all like the portals, they have to be in a chain (so they are in each other's aoe)

6. AP self manipulation
Basically spells that are stronger, but as a consequence remove your own AP at he begining of your next turn (could combo nicely with the increased willpower resulting from this)

7. Dial manipulation
The dial is really useful for mobility, but some more spells that affect the dial would be cool.
Maybe a spell that deals damage on all hour cells, a spell that swaps everything on the dial cells to the other side of the dial (mirronring it), making the hour cells spin by 1 hour moving anything on them along with it, expanding the AoE of spells cast on it etc.

8. Rewarding delayed damage
The point of delayed damge is thinking of a delay like a downside, you do good dmage but the enemy has time to react before they are hurt (for example, kill you in that one turn), so why does distortion deal more damage to an enemy if it's triggered this turn then if it triggers naturally on your next turn? It just doesn't make sense, make it deal more damage or have some extra effects if it triggers naturally (maybe even triggering if the enemy teleports? maybe even blocking said teleport?)

9. The return of time duplicates and time armour
Time clones were a really cool spell and while the replacement "against the clock" is quite a cool spell very fitting of a xelor, I'd still love to see it make a return.
For those that don't remember, it was a spell that you cast in a direction that teleported you there but also spawned identical clones of yourself int he other 3 cardinal directions. These clones would disappear and remove 1 AP from anyone damaging them. It was kinda useless against classes with aoe spells, but great for escaping from classes with focus on single target spells like srams.

The second one was time armour, it was a passive that gave you a chance to gain AP every time you suffered damage from your enemies (great aginst combo classes like air iop), it could be well tied into the rollback mechanic to grant the AP charges for more tanky xelors and maybe even have an active spell (now that we have those on the 3rd spell bar) to convert the stored charges into armour, for more tanky builds (especially since xelors have no healing or regeneration abilities).

10. Empowered ticks and tocks
In one of the iterations xelor went trough, they had spell change their effects, areas of effect and such depending on the tick and tock states (mostly fire spells), but now it mostly only affects AP removal on frostbyte and fire air/fire water damage combos.
I think making this return as a passive would really expand the xelor playstyle options and make desynchronization a more valuable spell then just for infinite aging-hand combos

PS: Would be really glad if someone could translate these ideas to the french devs, maybe the'll get some inspiration
PPS: It'll take a while for me to write all this, so have some patients
PPPS: Phew I'm done, sorry for the wall of text
PPPPS: No just because xelor deals lots of damage doesn't mean he is a good balanced class, same goes for osamodas
P5S: Contrary to Noste's oppinion, I don't think Xelor's AP removal is the problem, just that the monsters have too much AP so AP removal doesn't affect them as much as the players

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Score : 3806

After this block of text, I try to make my feedback short.
1.) is a good option, but maybe too much with all other ideas
2.) I would only change orders instead of stunning or getting an extra turn, because I see so many situations where this could end up too op. So for example for a low cost or a sideeffect, change turnorder of 3 and 4 in timeline of the enemies.
3) I think there is not enough space in the spells to give another melee oriented tree. I think the class is fine with the kits it has, if they get more supported.
4.) Maybe as an active spell, some of the ideas would be ok.
5.)The summons definitly need more sustain, maybe not more damage, so they can get some more utility.
6.)I suggested this several times in the discord, so yes.
7.) I'm neutral here.
8.) Why would somebody not want to change this?
9.) I'm neutral here too.
10.) yes, but not only make more restriction, instead try to offer more with tick and tock

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Score : 35576

Xelor subsection :eyes:

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Score : 9001

 

Enceladon|2018-02-28 15:30:43
After this block of text, I try to make my feedback short.
1.) is a good option, but maybe too much with all other ideas
2.) I would only change orders instead of stunning or getting an extra turn, because I see so many situations where this could end up too op. So for example for a low cost or a sideeffect, change turnorder of 3 and 4 in timeline of the enemies.
3) I think there is not enough space in the spells to give another melee oriented tree. I think the class is fine with the kits it has, if they get more supported.
4.) Maybe as an active spell, some of the ideas would be ok.
5.)The summons definitly need more sustain, maybe not more damage, so they can get some more utility.
6.)I suggested this several times in the discord, so yes.
7.) I'm neutral here.
8.) Why would somebody not want to change this?
9.) I'm neutral here too.
10.) yes, but not only make more restriction, instead try to offer more with tick and tock


On the topic of 2
This depends if we want it to be a permanent shift or a 1 turn shift.
If it's a one turn shift it could be a minor effect of some spell, but if it would be a continuus shift it could be the main effect of a spell, just like ap removal
The real question here is if could result in breaking up the alternating turn order, causing the whole enemy team to take their turn after your whole team, that would be really nteresting
Because if it just swaps the turn order of 2 enemies, you didn't do much besides maybe screw up very specific combos (or put their cra after your cra enabling your cra to oneshot their cra after their eniripsa had their turn? not sure how realistic this is)

 
Enceladon|2018-02-28 17:35:50
"... causing the whole enemy team to take their turn after your whole team ..."
That would be extremly broken, it is obvious that they created the autoinitbalance to prevent such a case and I think that was a good decision. I'm not muchg into pvp, but if someone could do that, he could kill everyone with team effort, before he even has a chance to make himself tankier or attack someone else. With this power, focussing on a target definitly results in a kill of that target with team effort with nobody of the enemy team having a chance to react on that. Better not, this would be too powerful und would probably shift a lot the balance into a catastrophe.
I think most of the ideas are good, but this can't work. Messing around the order of the enemy team with only switching places can help a lot (especially in pve), for example you could let the tankier mobs start first, so you have  more time to attack and kill the high damage mobs or bringing someone who armor all other or heal all other to the last spot so you can kill targets without having to work against the heal/armor. Besides, then this effect wouldn't need much balance, because it isn't crazy strong, but a viable option, so it don't need to cost extremly much.

Well obviously you couldn't do that on the first turn, if you can achieve this over the course of 20 turns, that wouldn't really be overpowered, would it?
Also autoinit balance kinda makes init itself useless, making targets with high init harder to move with this mechanic would actually add more counterplay just like with wisdom
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Score : 3806

"... causing the whole enemy team to take their turn after your whole team ..."
That would be extremly broken, it is obvious that they created the autoinitbalance to prevent such a case and I think that was a good decision. I'm not muchg into pvp, but if someone could do that, he could kill everyone with team effort, before the target even has a chance to make himself tankier or attack someone else. With this power, focussing on a target definitly results in a kill of that target with team effort with nobody of the enemy team having a chance to react on that. Better not, this would be too powerful und would probably shift a lot the balance into a catastrophe.
I think most of the ideas are good, but this can't work. Messing around the order of the enemy team with only switching places can help a lot (especially in pve), for example you could let the tankier mobs start first, so you have  more time to attack and kill the high damage mobs or bringing someone who armor all other or heal all other to the last spot so you can kill targets without having to work against the heal/armor. Besides, then this effect wouldn't need much balance, because it isn't crazy strong, but a viable option, so it don't need to cost extremly much.

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Score : 3298

#1 is too much like various other classes charges, while the mechanic is sound id prefer to not have yet another class with charges. Its not a change that xelor needs IMO. And #3 I don't think there is room nor need for a melee branch.

As for the rest , going so far as to skip a whole turn is too far in the other direction. Taking init right now doesn't do a whole lot but it shouldn't interfere with the lineup either, how about instead it gives you a buff that either adds to armor or alternatively adds on to your effectiveness % to take Ap.
Bringing back the doubles  or other old mechanics as passives or class skills, Im for, but doubles in particular if i recall right didn't work correctly and thats why it was removed. It would need fine tuning first. The other suggestions I'm not for or agaisnt, Xelor does need a rework, and alot of this was  interesting but IMO the focus should remain on removing of Ap, and manipulation and how to apply it, or transfer it

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Score : 9001

 

Enceladon|2018-03-06 23:20:05
No I didn't, if you look at it, I haven't written that anywhere else. The problem is that I corrected a spelling mistake later, so my answer changed in timeline, so that what you quoted is now under your comment to my quote. Really nice to downvote me because of that. If this downvote isn't from you, I apologize and than please, whoever downvoted me because of the text, could you explain me, why it isn't overpowered, if a whole team could attack before their enemy?


It isn't overpowered if you really think about it, because it happens gradually:
On the first turn everyone's turns alternate like usual
On the second turn you debuff the second to last enemy enought that he drops down past your ally, so now it's 4 alternating, than 2 of your team and 2 of their team, which means you spent most of your turn making one ally move twice relatively to one guy on their team, which is about a strong as loosing 1/6 of their turn.
Now do this approximately 8 times over (i counted half of their team twice because there's no way you'll be able to move the top 3 under your bottom 3 in one turn) you'll end up with your whole team taking their turn before their team (and vice versa) which means you basicly gave your team 1 extra turn (besides messing up their team order and preventing them from messing up your combos and you messing up their combos), which is arguably less strong than an AP xelor removing 3 AP from each of them each turn.
PS: If messing up turn order does indeed end up too strong, it could be changed to either a temporary but more severe timeline sliding, or keeping it permanent but making them swap instead of shift so there's no relative turn loss on the team as a whole
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Score : 3806

I don't understand why in your example the xelor don't use it in first turn.
I could try an example where it would be totally broken. For example stasis 1 dugeon (mob rooms), where most classes can atleast kill one enemy. Xelor (high init) push back the next enemy after his next ally and weaken/kill the enemy after, the next ally can kill both/the one pushed back. Than you could have another Xelor pushing the next enemy one place back in time line and weaken/kill the next enemy after, ... repeat. At the end, your team only got damage of only one/zero enemies in a whole fight. OK, you will maybe say that stasis 1 is easy mode, but in fact this is the most used mode at the moment and the most efficient. If your enemies have no way to attack, this would end so easily in an instant farm fight, if only the xelor would have the ability to push one enemy only one position back in timeline instead of a swap.

If it is only a swap, I could live with it and it could probably cost not that much, that xelor can do other things too. I don't want a build with an 10AP spell/spellcombo  without damage pushing someone/some player back in timeline, which would be a possible solution of Ankama, if the effect is too strong.

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Score : 25103

I think it would be great if Xelor could change turn order between allies. It would be handy especially in dungeons where boss is always immune to the first person that start turn after him (Wild Gobbal dungeon, Xelorium Present unlocking mechanics) but it coud also let for example Feca play faster without the need for Feca to invest in initiative.

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