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Score : 1994

Xelor is fine but they need some fixes..

By MiiiiKy - MEMBER - January 06, 2018, 11:53:42
DISCLAIMER: Those are just my silly suggestions and opinions! Don't get your Dials twisted!   
  I've been playing Xelor for a very long time, seens many buffs, nerfs and revamps, got satisfied with some, frustrated with other and there are even a couple of them that made me quit for a while, as it stands they're fine but just that, fine, not good, not bad just.. Fine.. Reason being a couple of problems they have in relation to other DD classes and I'd like to point them out.

Issue#1: Fire - Line of Fire, Hydrant and Temporal Burn
  When was the last time you had seen a Xelor use Line of Fire? THis spell is great to do an additional +10% damage on Distortion on the enemy BUT Time Control does the same and only costs 1PA which is a better way to trigger the effects as for the Hydrant, the biggest complaint I have is why does it use Close Combat Mastery?! That denies a lot of damage since no Xelor builds Close Combat Mastery.. Temporal Burn's issue is simply his damage/AP ratio, it's TOO LOW.. A Lv200 spell does 26 damage/AP but Temporal Burn does only 21 per AP used, making it the weakest 1AP/2AP/3AP spell, if it wasn't for the flexibility (And the combo with Air) I'm sure no Xelor would use it.
Possible Solution: Increase the damage of the Distortion trigger on Line of Fire to 15% AND make it burn Temporal Freeze (50% of it) as for Hydrant, simply just make it's distance related damage according to the Xelor's position not the Hydrant itself (So if the Xelor is 4 cells away from the target but the Hydrant is near it would use Distance Mastery since the Xelor is further away) and Temporal Burn can be easily "fixed" by somply increased the damage, maybe from 21/AP to 24/AP (Still weaker than a regular spell but at least now it's reasonable).

Issue#2: Water - Frostbite, Xelor Hourglass, Sinistro and Clock
  I remember a time that the Water branch was pretty much useless and 99% of Xelors were all Fire/Air, this changed since the big revamp that gave us Temporal Freeze and it was great! Water used to have NO SYNERGY whatsoever with any branch but now it's just too good to pass and Xelors have possibly the best synergy between elements in the game, however these spells cited above need some work, Frostbite is just a boring spell, it can give PA on Tick turns and remove PA on Tocks but other than that it was always pushed aside for Xelor Hourglass, speaking of which, the "new" Xelor Hourglass is a mess to use.. The cost was reduced to 1PA and the damage + Temporal Freeze was lowered accordingly (Which is already bad since it's a linear spell that can only be cast twice per turn which means less damage and less Temporal Freeze stacks) but then they decided to do that awkward gimmick of lowering 2PA from the target AND the caster, it's great if you only have 1PA left but, other than that, you're basicaly casting a 2PA spell (Most of the time it tends to remove only 1PA) that does the same damage as a 1PA spell and that stacks less Temporal Freeze, haven't seen many Xelors using this since then (Me included) and do I even need to say something about Sinistros? No one uses them.. A 4PA summon that does a pitiful damage and has no purpose other than, possibly, removing 1PA as for Clock, before it was an amazing spell due to it's good syenrgy with the passive Time Theft but since the AP removal was nerfed to -1AP it made Time Theft kinda useless and this spell weaker, the reason being is, like Temporal Burn, it's damage/AP ratio is too low, very low, in fact so low that it does a damage of a 4AP spell even tho' it costs 5AP!
Possible Solution: Make Frostbite stack Temporal Freeze (And also lower the damage a bit, to be fair), for the Hourglass simply remove the -2PA on caster and lower the PA removal on enemies back to -1PA (It's already a demanding spell anyway with the linear + 2 casts only per turn) and make Sinistro be able to move around and buff allies PAs (Kinda like the Mekanistro) that would make people consider using it for a bit of support (Of course, to be fair, it would also need to have the condition of 2 turns cooldown and only one in the field no matter how much Control the Xelor has, kinda like Osamodas summons) and for Clock I'm aware that raising the damage to a 5AP spell would make this OP so how about it does the same damage as Xelor Punishment outside of the hour cell (-115)? It will still be weaker than a 5AP spell but at least it won't be THAT weak.

Issue#3 - Underhand and Tempus Fugit
  Is it me or does it feel like these spells are kinda costly? Underhand might be a 3AP spell but it's main use it teleport enemies around and/or push them but it need to be triggered first making this spell cost 5AP to teleport and 4AP (At minimum), same issue for Tempus Fugit, it's a teleport that cover a very small area yet it costs 3AP.
Possible Solution: Would be nice if Underhand got it's AP lowered to 2AP (And the damaged lowered accordingly of course), so teleport would cost 4AP while pushin would be 3AP OR just make that when you use Rollback to teleport you get your 2AP use on the Rollback back, way more realiable and flexibe to use and I would suggest the same for Tempus Fugit, to lower it's 3AP cost to 2AP (In case Underhand doesn't get it's AP cost lowered) OR increase it's teleport range em +1 so it can cover more area (In case Underhand do get it's AP cost lowered so we don't have 3 Air spells that cost 2AP).

Issue#4: Actives - Dial and Rollback
  The Dial's HP is too low, 16% of the Xelor's HP, making it very easy to be destroyed and a Xelor without a Dial is a sad Xelor, Rollbacks heals too little to the point of using it to heal the Dial is basicaly useless, also, why would you? Wait for another turn and summon a brand new one, no one uses it for healing the Dial anyways.. 
Possible Solutions: Increase the Dial's HP, simple, about the Rollback, I feel like the heals are, pretty much, useless and it would be WAY BETTER if it went back to what it was year ago that when you target your Dial with it you save AP for the next turn, it is way more usefull than a pitiful healing.

Issue#5: Passives - Rollback and Save
  Rollbacks are the main gimmick on Xelor's, it's their way to make the most damage possible, other classes have crits, some can backstab, others are berserkers, Xelor's rely on Rollbacks yet this is something that have to be unlocked by a passive, why? About Save it's a passive that I see no one using, it's good for burst turns but that are so many better passives that it gets neglected.
Possible Solutions: How about making Rollbacks a Xelor's mechanic, not a passive (Kinda like Sacrier's Angrrr ou Kilorf's Rage)? Then the Rollback passive could do something else, maybe increase the Rollback chance or even something more elaborated and "gimmicky" like "For each PA consumed on Rollback the Xelor gains +3% Critical Chance" for Save I already talked above that Rollback on Dial should save AP like before so maybe make this passive work something else like giving healing for the Xelor per AP saved when he receives them, that would offer some sustain at least.

Issue#6: Critical Hits chance
  Most DD classes have a way to increase their critical hit chances, Cras and Ecaflips being a good example, while others rely on some other more sure way to deal damage like Srams and Zobals Rear Mastery or Eliotropes and Sacriers Berserk Mastery, Xelor's gimmick are Rollbacks yet they need to be unlocked by a passive which consume a passive slot, their critical hit chance is also vanilla being only boosted by theis attributes and equipments making it lower than 70% and we can't rely on backstabs or berserk making it frustrating when you're at your burst turn, stacks a lot of Temporal Freeze just to have you final Hand to not crit..
Possible Solutions: I already said above that it would be nice if Rollbacks are a Xelor's mechanic not unlocked by a passive while the passive would boosting critical hits for Xelors according to Rollback used, that suggestion was not random, I really think Xelor's need a way to boost their critical chance, but not much, just a little boost, maybe make it that, in hour cells, he gets a 5% critical chance while in the current hour the boost is 10% or apply some gimmick like the one I suggested on passives, just anything really to make their damage more reliable.

Issue#7: Rollback Bug
  This one is a VERY old bug that so far was never worked on and it can be quite annoying and make Xelor almost useless in a fight, the bug is that once you disconect for any reason from a fight when you come back you CANNOT use Rollback on yourself anymore, you can try to relog as much as you want, close the client and reopen but it won't work for the duration of that fight and a Xelor that can't use Rollback is just a crappy Cra.. It doesn't happen always but it does happen sometimes and it annoys me a lot..

  Once again I must remember that these are just my silly opinions, if you agree or disagree is totally up to you, it's just a few things I though while leveling my Xelor based on frustrating momments and personal experiences.
6 -1
Reactions 52
Score : 507

i agree about rollback and that it should not be passive but a mechanic also that crit chance increase for each rollback would be nice and water spells needs reworking again since clock is the only one that provides good temporal freeze.
I think save is fine where it stands but time theft is what should be changed you also mentioned against the clock in your issues about actives however you didn't talk about it but i think it is a fine active its kind of a situational spell since you can use it for example against ashdragon in ethernals to keep him vulnerable as it moves the enemy you cast it on to its original starting point thus boss stays on the cloud hole so you do not need to anyone else to move him however this is a specific dungeon that against the clock works really well in but it wouldn't work as well in many other dungeons.
I feel the rollback heal is pretty much completely useless even if u were to heal more also dail hp is ok i mean i usually have another available before my dial is destroyed but it would be nice to increase it a bit more.
For the most part i agree^^

May the Ankama gods bless us again..............hopefully 

 

MiiiiKy|2018-01-06 13:11:36
Yeah, about teh rollback heals, now that I look back at it I think it would had been way better if it worked like before, target your Dial to save AP for the next turn

Ye i agree
3 0
Score : 1994

Yeah, about teh rollback heals, now that I look back at it I think it would had been way better if it worked like before, target your Dial to save AP for the next turn

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Score : 1994

A 100 views but only two comments.. Maybe it's too long to read *sigh*
I have to learn to keep it short but I get passionate about Xelors

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Score : 825

Your post is fine, who wants the tl;dr just read the bold parts. I think the problem is people are kinda skeptic that this kind of post makes any difference at all to ankama (unfortunately).

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Score : 786

Take a look at new enutrof and hope that xelors wont be changed any time soon tongue

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Score : 1994

I know ryt?!
I get scared of a revamp..

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Score : 10896

While I agree xelor has problems, I really think there should be some deeper changes than just those.
For starters the power of frostbite is that you can focus AP removal on a single enemy, at the cost of costing 1 AP more, so personally I'd make only frostbite stack temporal freeze and remove 2 AP (to be more consistent, but would have lower damage)), as this would allow it to be more focused on fire synergy, while sandglass can be the more powerful general AP removal (and have decent damage).
But really temporal freezing is kinda boring since it's just bonus damage, but I guess we need something for the pure damage builds, personally I'd allow it to build across multiple turns like pandawa's dizzy used to work.

Distortion is just a terrible mechanic, you have a spell that enables you to hit enemies on your next turn, which is awesome thematically, but you get rewarded for not doing that and just triggering it instantly. Personally I'd give it bonus damage if you let it trigger naturally, since you are literally giving your enemy another turn before killing them, and we all know how much that's worth (clingy sacriers).

Thirdly the fire branch is just terrible and outdated. If you want pure damage you already have the water-fire synergy with temporal freezing detonations which give you pure damage combos. But than you get the fire air synergy with aging and most fire spells, which remove the target's initiative for 1 turn (a mechanic that has became useless about 4 years ago, so they just made it deal bonus damage because they couldn't think of a new mechanic I imagine), leaving another 2 branch synergy that's just "makes more damage if you cast aging at the begining of your turn".
Personally I'd rework th entire fire branch in 1 of 3 ways:
1. Make initiative removal actually do something
Maybe removing enough initiative could rearange the placement of combatants in the timeline, not just when the fight starts, this would give them a similar power of half-stuns kinda like how osamoda's phoenix spirit moved their summons in the timeline.
OR maybe the xelor could store all the initiative it steals and could use it as a resource to give some bonus effects to air spells or something, the air three is kind of haphazard as it is (mostly utility spells mashed together into one branch), maybe there could be some spell that punches a target into the next turn, removing them from combat for a turn (kinda like transcendence+stun)
2. Just give fire spells some new effects
Xelors are famous for manipulating time, but besides moving AP from target to target we don't see much of it (except for "it deals damage"). Maybe fire spells could place glyphs that distort time in an area, lowering damage of spells cast trough the glyph, increasing the MP or adding an AP cost of moving trough the border of the glyph, or maybe just dealing damage to characters using AP while on the glyph.

Lastly the summons, they are just terrible. Not just cause their damage and health scale terribly in lategame (kinda like barriers), but also the fact that they have absolutely no synergy with other xelor mechanics. my suggestions are:
1. Make them have charges again, would give them strenght against certain enemies while weak to others
2. Make them extend the casting range of certain spells if you are in line with them, or extending the aoe of certain spells if cast on them. It would make them less annoying when they block your line of sight while adding some more strategy since you can't move them after you cast them
3. Make them move, either making them controllable for a turn like osamodas used to do (posession) or a spell that gives them MP (and some spell to heal them or give them amour would also be very welcome), or just make them movable by spells like eliotrope portals and enutrof dhrellers

PS: The air branch shouldn't be the one with all the utility spells, either make them specials or move them to other branches. Air could be a whole new branch with a different playstyle to add variety to xelors, maybe some sort of useful close combat spells, since a lot of the air spells seem to lean in the way of mobility and movement.

2 0
Score : 1994

Tho' I agree Temporal Freeze isn't such difficult and flashing concept, it is at least interesting the synergy between freezing and burning and it sure made Water very useful, before Water was so garbage no Xelor even dared to use it unless if they wanted to some "support Xelor" (which was terrible).

Fire Branch is fine by me, it's the one with the heaviest damage since it burns the Temporal Freeze and has high synergy with both Air and Water making it strong not directly but indirectly by removing Initiative (Tho' I agree that Initiative removal IS outdated but the damage still there at least) and burning Ice but I agree with point #1, Initiative loss should do something about #2, well, I feel like that's the point of Fire, raw damage, Air has mobility and utility while Water has indirect damage (Freeze) and AP removal (Mostly I'm just scared that Ankama might revamp it and pull up a "Enutrof" on Xelors)

Tho' I agree the summons are terrible at least Hydrant has some use with the "Hydust" combo making Temporal Dust twice as powerfull with full charges (Which is an insane AoE damage) but Sinistro is just.. Pathetic.. That's why I suggested he kinda worked like a Mekanistro from Hareboug Country, steal AP from enemy and gives to nearest ally, that would make him at least FIVE TIMES more useful andmake Xelors more desirable in groups, I don't feel like Hydrant should move but Sinistro? Totally!

About your PS, Air for me is OKeysh, Distortion and Xelor Punishment have a very good damage, Underhand tho' is mostly used for pushing / teleporting also has an OK damage and can be used to deal direct damage if needed (Even tho' it has the lowest range, can only be casted 3x per target and it's linear) and the utility of Aging and Tempus Fugit is just so good tho' I would say that the heaviest problem with air is the lack of a good synergy with Water, for me Xelor is all about synergy and that's why there's no Water/Air Xelors but mostly Fire/Water, Fire/Air and Tri (End game everyone is tri), Time Control can be used to trigger Underhand and Distortion (with extra damage), which is fine but the main issue is the extra damage on AP removed on Tock turns with Aging, the damage is so laughably low I even wonder why is that a thing.. Maybe if they made it do more damage then it would be nice and one more option of combos in Tock turns.

Thanks for the feedback tho'

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Score : 40

I for one, love the idea of sinistros, but I agree they're underwhelming as anything. So here's what I suggest:

1) Have them act as relay points for your spells, effectively boosting your damage range.
or
2) have them store the AP they take from enemies and give it to friendlies whenever they move through the sinistro's AoE.

Thoughts?

3 0
Score : 1994

Not bad actually
It would be nice if they can still move or even be controlled.. Maybe making the passive Mechanics Specialist give you full control of the Sinistro would make it more desirable as well, sure would be nice to have a "pet", haha

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Score : 331

A revamp of mechanisms is what i would like to see the most, honestly speaking.I agree on everything you have said, i like the idea of making rollback a default feature so as the changes to the spell itself. Yeah, dial is hella squishy and in certain places it won't really last 'till your next turn. Also would be nice adding more sustain, which is what xelor really needs right now. Regarding water branch, making frostbite able to stack freeze would be already enough for me, we could consider it a variant of the old sandglass, since new one seems to focus more on ap stealing while greatly sacrificing damage, and this make it reeeeeally hard to pick up in pve decks ( but maybe, it doesn't work bad in some pvp builds ). As for air, i would be just fine with a way of making teleport cheaper and maybe do something about punishment. In itself, it is not a weak spell, but it is situational and in my opinion it suffers from the same disease as frostbite: spells which do not combine with others doesn't really suit xelor playstile. This leaving aside that it has no way to help great clockmaker regen. As for the initiative stealing mechanic, which popped out in the comments ( obviously ), well, it is just my opinion but i guess making it really able to change ini order would be pretty much overpowered. I do not think they will implement such ability ever again anyway. Something more "gimmicky" would be better. But mmm, maybe collision damage connected to ap removal is a way to say they will change xelor into a windmill in the near future ? I'm ok with whatever, as long as it is not another restriction of uses per turn~

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Score : 10896

I agree rollback is too restrictive to be a passive, I think it would be cool if rollback charges would be how you give AP to allies (like using timekeeper on others instead of yourself, rather then time controlling allies) and water spells would be the way to generate these charges.
I don't really think moving enemies on the timeline would be that OP.
I mean obviously stunning someone is super strong, because it lets everyone attack it 1 more time before his turn, but moving them would only let 1 player hit them again before it's turn, which is actually comparable to AP boosting that ally (he can attack more) or a partial stun.
Also heck yeah on more gimicky stuff, unique mechanics are the best part of classes.

3 0
Score : 1994

Updated with an issue on Rollback Bug that I had forgotten but was reminded today as I played..

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Score : 507

Xelors UNITE!
 

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Score : 331

Mmm we are not so many, so i have always thought about xelors discussing over things or whining for some nerf like little stuffed lions roaring: it leds to nothing but it's actually pretty cute.

2 -3
Score : 1994

Updated with some views on Temporal Burn and Clock doing WAY less damage/AP than most spells (Specially Clock, that thing hits like a 4AP spell.. At least before it used to remove -2AP so it was understandable but now, if it wasn't for the TEmporal Freeze, it would had been useless tho' it made the passive Time Theft useless)

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Score : 1994

Also some suggestions about Tempus Fugit and Underhand

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Score : 331

I'm honestly fine with burn damage, i would focus on other things first, altho the fact that it always counts as a 1 ap spell is a bother when facing bosses who need stacks. Don't know if this is the way it is supposed to be, or another bug.

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Score : 1994

You just reminded me of that, thanks

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Score : 786

 

cody5|2018-01-10 19:41:16

PS(not really, I just like to say it): I wish they seriously revamped the passives, I mean most of them are soo bad. Either flat stats, absolutely necessary or just useless.
 

Wanna have enutrof syle new passives like +1 Range +Melee damage? biggrin Just enjoy what u have tongue
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Score : 10896

Oh great, I'll just keep removing initiative then, so nice

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Score : 10896

 

supic|2018-01-11 19:34:57
Of course i understand that we all want abit better xelor smile
But.
If u make too much commotion in here they can think Oh Yeah we will revamp those xelors now. And it will end with something like - u deal damage depending on hour cells u stepped this turn...

Honestly that actually sounds like a fun mechanic.
Momentum mori: Gain 5% damage on your next spell for every different hour cell you stepped this turn (+5% if you end on the current hour cell)
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Score : 786

yeah Ankama have to hire me as a class mechanic developer tongue

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Score : 5734

Yessss, thanks for this thread!

I like a lot of your ideas (especially about making some of the passives something you don't need to unlock).

Xelor definitely needs an update. It's still a great class, but I feel like we're being held together with duct tape. Even before the changes to AP removal (which crippled many of our passives, along with hurting our damage-to-AP ratio even more), we were incredibly outdated.
Our spells are extremely costly for what they do and most of our mechanics don't even apply in game any more: for example, remember when the initiative removal from fire spells changed turn order? Or AP removal used to be actually useful outside of PvP?

The stuff we can still do, other classes can do just as well (or better!) for less AP. High mobility? Name me a class that can't get across the map just as well or better than xelor these days. Player revive? Many classes have it in some form (I like Mummification, for the record). AP steal? I feel like some classes do this better than xelor now (not that it matters anymore, but it was supposed to be xelor's "thing"). Our summons are very outdated too: hydrands and sinitstros are too limited to have anything but very situational use.

I still enjoy the class, but I feel like xelor is old and has lost its uniqueness. Even though the early versions of xelor had tons of flaws, I feel like they were very interesting and well suited to the "theme" of xelor: we could control dead enemies (poorly executed, but fun), we could make clones (poorly executed, but also very "xelor"), initiative removal adjusted turn order (that definitely fits the "master of time and space" theme), etc.

Most turns these days are basically aging/hand combos (and that's all you can do anyway because just that by itself is 7ap gone!) and adjusting this would help us catch up to the other classes a bit.

I'm not saying that we should go back to the old days, but I look forward to a revamp that would bring the "essence" of the class back and give us more flexibility again. 

 

4 0
Score : 1994

Thanks for the feedback!
Thsi thread is looking great so far, if we get too many views and comments usually it gets passed down to Ankama developers and I hope it does, Xelor still have it's uselfulness but it's like you said, many other classes do it better

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Score : 477

Having enjoyed xelor utility in dungeons such as vore and kani, I actually love the way that the air branch works. I think the main issue is the sheer ap cost of the spells. A xelor needs to maximize their ap to create actual viable combos, and we seem to be completely crippled when forced to choose mobility. As of now, xelors need to devote almost their entire turns to mobility to be useful, and I think this is due to AP cost.

Also, having read Pax's posts on a tank xelor build, its clear that xelor is extremely versatile, just isn't quite as good at things as other classes. What I think is mainly lacking is some sort of specialty. AP removal used to be that, but now it's nerfed and not extremely useful against some enemies (who have insane amounts of AP). Also Init debuffs are pretty useless. Please ankama, give xelor some niche (besides long turns). 

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Score : -667

I like some of the points you made but those about hourglass and frostbite are... well not entirely accurate. On my xelor Retina, Tock turn I can reduce any target I see fit by 6-7 ap. Leaving them with only half of their AP pool. And I’m able to do this every turn. And Hourglass raises my own FoW making it easier to nerf ap using frostbite. Honestly the air/water setup of xelor (with some statted force of will) makes Frostbite and Hourglass very effecive and powerful to the point it’s kinda dumb. Not many classes can survive on just 5 ap.

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Score : 10896

yeah it's nice to halve someone's damage output, but comes at the cost of doing extremely subpar damage that turn, and the enemy you debuffed will probably just walk up to you and deal more damage than you did doing this

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