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Xelor Revamp

By #[Troyle] April 19, 2013, 17:49:50
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Score : 98

I think that the air branch should be indipendent from the ot, perhaps with a different mechanism around the time-theme, maybe positioning.

Honestly I never liked the idea of a branch dependant on some other. I don't wanna be forced into hybridizing, to exploit all the fun one branch can give, and personally I would play the xelor if there would be a revamp in that sense.

Also, perhaps aging could be somewhat put into the tick/tock mechanic. Like on either state I make targets loose HP for init/AP removal or something.

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Score : 1259

The only thing that I don't like is the Dial changes. Limited dial turns is important to keeping Xelor from being OP, and being able to break a dial or get the free teleport are often the only things that keep a Xelor alive when playing solo and getting locked.

If you extend the life of the dial and add AP cost to it, I would ask that you allow Xelor to leave dial squares without the dial dying (obviously their bonus wouldn't follow them when they leave the squares).

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Score : 3403
AlisonRobin|2013-04-27 01:47:09
The only thing that I don't like is the Dial changes. Limited dial turns is important to keeping Xelor from being OP, and being able to break a dial or get the free teleport are often the only things that keep a Xelor alive when playing solo and getting locked.

If you extend the life of the dial and add AP cost to it, I would ask that you allow Xelor to leave dial squares without the dial dying (obviously their bonus wouldn't follow them when they leave the squares).
I think removing the free teleport would be a good tradeoff for a chance to get back on the dial and save it when we are pushed off.

It also gives us some more control when positioning the dial too.
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Score : 1244

I apologize in advance if I repeat things already said, but I have a few suggestions.

The first element I want to discuss is fire and how it interacts with Tick. Tick state improves your initiative loss affliction rates, meaning you can cause more initiative loss with the fire spells Hand, Line of Fire, Temporal Burn, and Temporal Dust. During Tick turns these spells will inflict extra initiative loss. My first suggestion is to make it so initiative loss caused during Tick turns is then stored in your dial, but you as the Xelor do not get it back next turn. When you have your next turn you will switch to Tock state, which does nothing unless you use water spells to cause AP loss. If you stole initiative using fire spells during the previous turn while you had Tick, the stored initiative can be given to allies by using your fire spells on your allies; but instead of harming or causing initiative loss to your allies it will not deal damage to them and the loss becomes gain. The Xelor does not gain the stored initiative and if you do not give all of it to your allies the stolen initiative will dissipate at the start of your next Tick turn when you can collect more again. Since Dust has a large area of effect it can be used to transfer large amounts of initiative to many allies at once while Hand can be used to transfer larger amounts of initiative to a single target.

For water and Tock it does essentially the same as fire and Tick, but instead of storing stolen initiative your dial will store the AP stolen from enemies and using water spells on allies will take the stored AP from your dial and one exception to the whole thing: instead of Slow Down transferring 2AP from your dial to the target ally, it transfers one and the second success rate becomes a chance to give the target ally 1AP without drawing from your dial. Frostbite and Sandglass transfer 1AP from your clock to the target ally as normal, Clock can be used to transfer AP in an area of effect, but Slow Down would have the chance to pull AP out of nowhere. All of this AP-going-from-dial-to-ally business happens during Tick turns while you reap AP during your Tock turns. AP loss caused by your Sinistros is also stored in your dial to transfer to your allies as long as they do it immediately after your Tock turn so you can hand out the AP during your upcoming turn which will give you Tick.

For both water and fire, the stored AP and initiative; all of that is destroyed along with your dial if that happens.

Before giving my bit on air, a few things on specialties. I know how Timekeeper works; the AP storage from that specialty will go to you, the Xelor, while the AP storage from using water spells during Tock turns would be a separate bank. For Temporal Images I would incorporate the AP and initiative storages from the two paragraphs above so you can create the illusions out of AP and initiative. You would be able to use the initiative or AP loss to create the images/illusions, then if the enemy hits them they lose even more initiative or AP depending on what you made it with. It would give solo Xelors something to do with all the initiative and AP they drain. I would also remove the WP cost for Images since you already take more damage for getting hit and area of effect attacks can get cut things close. My last trick for specialties is for Mummification. The first thing I would do is take out the bonuses and instant KO, replace those with a new system where the Xelor has to constantly feed revived allies initiative or AP depending on whether you are on a Tick or Tock turn (initiative for Tick, AP for Tock). Keeping an ally alive is only a matter of having them within range of your attacks to give them what they need to stay in battle, though they would need someone to heal their health back to take hits again, but if the Xelor fails to give them however much initiative or AP transferral they need to stay in battle they will be removed from battle at the end of their turn. The initiative and AP required to feed them can be based on character level or the rank of the Mummification specialty, but either way you have to keep stealing initiative and AP to feed a revived ally or multiple allies if it gets that bad.

For air this might be disappointing: using stored initiative or AP to deal more damage which scales to spell levels. I wish I had more to offer for air but it seems like people would want direct damage out of it instead of messing around with AP or initiative theft since Punishment and Aging are so great. There are probably a thirty people out there who have all sorts of great ideas for air that are way better than my measly contribution.

The spell will probably be modified to add a range of 3-3 and therefore lose the “free” teleportation.

I think this means when you create it, instead of creating the center on that space and then teleporting to the closes hour cell, you throw down the center at 3 range and you would stay where you are instead of instantly flying away. If an Iop is next to you and they have Locking Pro maxed out and they get up in your personal space, then you try to throw out a dial, you would be stuck adjacent to the center and not on an hour cell. By changing the range to 3 you would create the center so you would be guaranteed to be on an hour cell as long as you stay on that space.
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Score : 68

Loving the revamps ideas!

Although, as for Devotion, would it have an AoE or will it be strictly single-target?
I wouldn't want it to be strictly single-target, seems a little costly. I do like Devotion as it is now.

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Score : 748

This might be the best revamp yet.

I'm loving all of the changes, but what about Temp. Images and Mummification?

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Score : 12174

i dislike kakenshu's idea of changes im not saying they are bad and i dont mean to pick a fight or defend but what he suggests doesn't feel like a really support only xelor in my opinion and not all of us want to be support.

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Score : 472

Air Xelor

Here's the Description of an Air xelor from the Xelor's Sanglass ( intro) book.

"The basic damage cause by air spells is relatively low. This branch become much more interesting when the xelor is in the tick or the Tock state, though, as its spells will cause various secondary effets."

An idea:

-Tick and tock turn for the air branch could mean defensive and offensive turn, instead of only circling around Ini or AP loss.

Tick turns could stack dmg % ( for each hit) for the next cycle , which is the Tock turn. While Tock turn could stack up some resist( per hit) for the tick turn. or something like that.

The best revamp an air xelor could get is adding -dmg per hyperaction lvl removed to Aging during Tick or Tock turn.

Temporal distortion would need an effect during Tock turns too.

Xelor Punishment would have no blind spot within Dial area. Sounds OP but it will prevent enemies from camping next to the dial and using remaining AP to remove charges. Obviously this would make punishment AoE and single target. AoE if cast of Dial cell and single target if not cast on dial cell. Single target hit will naturally hit lower but decent dmg, enough to scare opponent out side of the dial area.

Midnight (This spell allows you to put down a Midnight cell. If the Xelor casts a spell when they're on this cell, the damages will be increased. There can only be one Midnight cell at a time)

Another interesting way to make punishment more flexible would be to have a 2 turn setup to be cast outside of the dial. This will bring true strategy to an air xelor. Using xelor punishment outside of dial on an Empty cell will set a Midnight cell ( i believe midnight was used before in closed beta). The cell cant be used till the next turn,. On the next turn you can cast 1 punishment ( or 2 if you feel generous :p) on the midnight cell, the cell will disappear after turn ends or after punishment is cast on it . The midnight cells placement would be extremely important. placing it in the right spot can have you deal some dmg or waste 5ap.

A xelor could also move to a midnight cell ( for 1 mp) only if its within range of remaining mp from the Dial. This time jump should cripple the xelor - ap or lose all mp which will cause destruction of Dial, but will allow xelor to get in range to finish off a monster or ally. This is just and idea to have the xelor step out of it s comfort zone ( the dial).

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Score : 2169
Temporal Image why its usless
monsters ALWAYS know witch one is real and hit it
on pvp if u get bonus dmg from temporal armor u get aura and after u finish turn, aura stay on images not xelor... only tard would hit images :p
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Score : 4032

I'll be following this topic closely but there's not enough information yet to decide anything. I am glad aging is not going away. It's my favorite xelor spell. I do rather think xelor is not as bad as many other classes are now however and worry it'll be messed up by uneccesary complication. It can already take almost a full turn when you're doing aging and six hourglasses and a slowdown and zipping around, or setting up a dial, etc. Working in slow down on friendlies and devotion usage might get to be a bit much due to time constraints, but we'll see. For the most parts my complaint with xelor is images, rollback and somewhat dial dependance as relates to punishment, but I do not want to trade the ability to get a dial up and cast 2 punishments or 2 hands for an expensive ap costing dial that stays around and forces me to use more ap and mp to get back to it leaving me not actually doing anything but spending ap to maintain a dial that I can't even get full use of. I'd frankly be happy with dial costing 1 wp or 100 percent chance on break to refund 1 wp so I can get more than three reliably on a longer fight. I'd just like the ability to cast punishment in front of me by 2 squares instead of 1 so i didn't have to aoe myself to use it off the dial. Bad design there. If no dial is up, just make it linear range 2-4 or something and reduce damage by 15 percent if it's not targetted on an hour cell, though frankly a xelor off the dial is already losing damage.

I also do feel that I'd rather see sadida questions answered and have the bugged elements of their recent revamp addressed by grou before we move on to another class. Let's get sadida right. It had far more problems than xelor to begin with and now there are tons of unanswered questions and discussion and no response from grou as to whether things are working as intended or whether they're gathering information to fix bugs. Summons damage not applying? Explodoll hitting for 1 damage or 2 at level 20? Poison damage not accounting for elemental mastery? Ridiculous cost of summoning compared to osa for very disposable dolls that have little to no survival rate and abysmal damage? Nettled adds maybe 30 damage to a doll and that is before resists. 100 damage on a 30 base damage spell is paltry at best. Maybe at 400 percent damage increase you'd actually start seeing something that even compares to a second hit from another attack. These things can't possibly be right. In other games they have huge staff so they can work on multiple classes at one time, but grou just did the sadida revamp and I frankly consider it unfinished.

I'd rather not see the developers run through and ruin and bug multiple classes at the same time. Let's finish what was started and get sadida in a good place before we start mucking with xelor.

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Score : 1377

If the dial is going to cost AP, i think the high AP cost of the fire branch may need a looking at

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Score : 80

I feel like each of the branches does have an idea behind it, but the idea doesnt realy work.
Lets take air. Its about mobility, but if you are trying to be mobile besides staying at your dial, you have almost no damage abilities left to consider as satisfying. Telescopic hand is quite useless. Same goes for tempus fugit, it's range makes it not a good spell to run away, and the way it damages needs you to tank. But is an agi xelor a tank? Not realy.
Then water: it's suposed to be suportive ap stealing with some dmg, but the way it works makes ap stealing not reliable and usefull. It's suposed to make a mob weaker by the effects but its impossible to steal ap from most of the stronger mobs not even mentioning bosses, in solo fights it doesnt steal enough ap to make a monster lets say not attack you at all, or attack 1 time not 2. That makes it quite useless. And the damage loss connected to this "utility" makes a water xelor a less than decent character.
Then there is fire, which I think was suposed to be an offensive way, but it has lower dmg than agi, more reliable but it makes you simply a distance damager, but alot weaker than lets say a cra. The ap requirements of the spells prevent you from making good damage that satisfies the team you are in. Also each branch in my opinion lacks spells that take some also mp (not only ap) and have more dmg thanks to that trade. All in all i think that besides air, that should be more reliable both water and fire have a role that shows that has a good idea behind it but the way it's executed is less than satisfying.

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Score : 3403
nimmroth|2013-04-28 23:34:42
I feel like each of the branches does have an idea behind it, but the idea doesnt realy work.
Lets take air. Its about mobility, but if you are trying to be mobile besides staying at your dial, you have almost no damage abilities left to consider as satisfying. Telescopic hand is quite useless. Same goes for tempus fugit, it's range makes it not a good spell to run away, and the way it damages needs you to tank. But is an agi xelor a tank? Not realy.
Then water: it's suposed to be suportive ap stealing with some dmg, but the way it works makes ap stealing not reliable and usefull. It's suposed to make a mob weaker by the effects but its impossible to steal ap from most of the stronger mobs not even mentioning bosses, in solo fights it doesnt steal enough ap to make a monster lets say not attack you at all, or attack 1 time not 2. That makes it quite useless. And the damage loss connected to this "utility" makes a water xelor a less than decent character.
Then there is fire, which I think was suposed to be an offensive way, but it has lower dmg than agi, more reliable but it makes you simply a distance damager, but alot weaker than lets say a cra. The ap requirements of the spells prevent you from making good damage that satisfies the team you are in. Also each branch in my opinion lacks spells that take some also mp (not only ap) and have more dmg thanks to that trade. All in all i think that besides air, that should be more reliable both water and fire have a role that shows that has a good idea behind it but the way it's executed is less than satisfying.
I really disagree with your evaluation of the ideas of each branch. I think air isnt about mobility at all but is about supporting the other branches and acting as a trump card vs opponents that want to sit on your dial. with aging xelor can have the highest base damage potential of any class when combined with fire, and temporal distortion is for supporting water.

I don't know what what water xelors you have seen but i can half the attacks of 4 arachnees with a single sinistro, every second turn i can drain a boss of all of its ap. (im not sure about ubs though, ive heard that they are immune which is bullshit design if its true)

Like i said, fire with aging is the highest base damage in the game, that is where mp is spent. And hydrand/punishment is a good combo too

In my opinion xelor has one of the best designed spell trees in the game (and possibly worst active and passive ability design.) as its one of the only classes where hybrids gain real advantages.
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Score : 1445

Seems like they are reading the suggestions after all. I proposed spell that allows to choose the receiver of sandglass APs almost a year ago smile.

On other changes:
fire - ALL fire spells become AoE on tock? Seems interesting. I just hope that ini loss nerf on tick won't be severe. After t.burn got such treatement, it became completely useless for hybrid builds. And ankama claims to support multi-el builds...
water - I must admit, current ap% steal calculation is strange. I'm fire/aging xel, but when fighting whispered cracklers I use sandglass often for resist decreasing. It is around 30 lvl, but still I manage to steal a lot of aps (as for a non-water xel). On the other side, water xels are useless for stronger enemies and UBs, becasuse these have stupid resistances to EVERYTHING (seriously, tactical mmorpg with bosses immune to debuffs? ridiculous), and addtionaly, UBs get buffed when attacked - no and no for any AP steal attempt;
air - punish should NOT be more flexible. It is ridiculously strong, probably strongest AoE (small aoe, but still) spell in game. The whole point is that it is hard to use. Don't turn air xel into iop-like retard, spamming one strongest spell wherever he wants;
dial - destruction at the end of turn - great, but it requires a way to destroy dial earlier (maybe dial spell cast on the dial?), because dial repositioning is often required. It may, however, make air xelors too strong, because they wouldn't have to guess turn earlier if stepping off dial is needed. About the cost - it is hard to tell for me. 2wp seems ok, but I always play with fire eni in team, so I have plenty of wp in most cases, and I may have lost objectivity on this issue. Maybe 1wp return could become guaranteed? AP+WP cost seems a bit pointless, not introducing any new quality, only pain in the ass at first turn of battle;
mummification, t.images - these are ridiculously useless skills. In their case, any change is good;
devotion - well, here ankama shows typical for all game developers mental disorder - immense need for repairing something that is not broken. If you really need to mess with it, do it as you described with mp>ap convert, but leave self targeted AoE feature. With this, xelor would be forced to choose wisely where he uses it, to avoid getting stuck in crappy position.

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Score : 3403

Its not like this would make repositioning the dial any different, Before we had to float off and wait a turn too. Or attack the dial yourself if it has low charges

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Score : 3443

Ok wanted to put my two cents in since this is from someone who has a low lvl Xelor char vs. a high one. First as it is currently when the dial is cast theres little left to cast much else, for that turn. Whatever changes are done to Dial it would be best to not make that any more restrictive than it already is. Concerning Devotion, if its made so you cant cast it on yourself it pretty much makes the spell useless, if instead you want to maybe change ti so you can only use it so many times per fight, thats acceptable but taking AP to yourself away completely just doesnt work. It'll fall into the same slot of barely used much like Mummy is now, Devotion may be used too much now but making it so you cant get AP from it at all will result in the opposite problem. As for Mummy, i understand how it works, and a protection spell for others is nice, but its rarely used and i really dont understand how to effectively control the other player etc. as someone else previously pointed out, let us cast it but let that player control their char still. Temporal Images is useless any of the suggestions already stated would be an improvement, it just isnt used and is inefective. Lastly all spell branches should not change to the extent that make it so you feel you HAVE to specialize in only one branch if you dont want to. A big part of what drew me to this class was its more flexible for dual/tri builds than some of the other classes.

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Score : 3483

So they have the pdf up on the french forums.

ALL of the core water spells had a damage nerf (except Clock.. which no longer costs mp, so yay?) AND cast limits (4 casts of Sandglass).

Aging takes a damage nerf in both the direct hit and the effect's damage (For water).

Xelor Punishment destroys dial cells and loses 10 base damage (and 15 on crit)...

Clock will be a new form of Devotion - allies in the AoE have a chance at gaining 1 AP. Semi-decent change but now I have to be bothered with leveling it to at least 90, in my build, for a piddly 11 damage per AP now that Sandglass can't do anything near 10 damage per ap anymore (it's now 7 damage per AP at level 100).

With their change to Devotion as well, it seems I may need to drop this character. Seems EVERY time I'm finally near finished gearing my alts for their final builds, Ankama ruins them.

Mechanical Summons now work on charges. This is a 'meh' change. Better for LoS blocking, worse for being higher maintenance.

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Score : 1811

More stuff.

Hand took a major nerf to damage for hybrid players. Lost 2 on the base damage at max however the amount of initiative it can take is literally halved. However. On Tock turns it will bounce up to twice, like Piercing Arrow on the Cra tree.

Hydrand took a major nerf. Has three charges now and instead of a 63 base cross area-of-effect attack it uses a 3AP Temporal Burn.

Aging is 2AP now and at max takes away 10 base per 10 initiative lost. Per AP, it is weaker now. It no longer costs an MP however.

Dial is 3AP/1WP across all levels. No free teleport effect. Still gain damage and I think initiative and AP reduction bonuses.

Everything Sydney said is correct. Xelor's Punishment has a two cast/turn limit on top of dial cell destruction.

Underhand always pushes when you target an enemy. On an empty cell, it creates a Time Warp cell.

Temporal Distortion has an effect that can teleport the target to a Time Warp cell.

Tempus Fugit can create a (Temporal Twist) portal. Create two of them and you can teleport from one to the other. They last one turn.

Xelor get a new passive called Time Crystallization (I think). As you use spells of an element you'll gain additional damage in it (10 levels of TC per attack at max and 10 initiative gained). You lose the effect if you do not harm something on your turn. Max 100% damage.

All water spells during tick can give an ally under the Temporal Focus state (given by using Slow Down on an ally during Tick) an AP you take away from enemies. This can happen a maximum of five times for the ally.

Timekeeper remains exactly the same, however it has a chance of adding a charge to the dial. 50% chance to add a charge at max. Still 100% chance to add the AP.

Mummification did not receive an Enirase effect as brought up initially. It has a 2AP cost at max, 1-4 range, and when it mummifies the target they gain additional damage for the mummified turn.

A specialty called Desynchronization will allow you to active switch between Tick and Tock for 1WP. You lose damage if it's not maxed.

Masters of Time gives mechanics. +40 initiative at max, and +30% to AP removal chance (originally +48 and +20% respectively).

Temporal Armor and Temporal Images no longer exist.

Rollback... I don't understand Rollback. Apparently it can trigger three times per turn in the footnotes? Otherwise the description says it can only happen once (per turn?).

THESE CHANGES ARE NOT FINAL. THEY ARE SIMPLY A REPRESENTATION OF WHAT CAN POTENTIALLY BE EXPECTED.

• Mango

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Score : 3403

Wow, i would think the roll back change would be enough of a nerf for punishment. But now its significantly weaker and eats dial cells as well? Goodbye punishment xelors.

Though air has some interesting mobility options now.

Water damage nerfs make no sense, They were already weak. Maybe its because of that buff that would go up quickly for water? Still its already weak enough to need it.

If hydrand loses its aoe then it becomes pointless compared to sinistro(oh wait that is killed too).

Any nerf to aging harms hybrids.

Mummification still instakills players?

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Score : 1811
HakazabaJub|2013-05-01 06:15:27
Mummification still instakills players?

Yes.

• Mango
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