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Spell rebound is...broken...as...hell.

By Iife February 24, 2012, 17:21:43

Forget armors. Forget glyphs. Forget rainbow robo cop.

The most problematic Feca skill is Spell Rebound. Not only does it reflect 100% of the damage back at an opponent, but the Feca does not take any damage from that attack either. The Feca is totally immune to damage during the reflect proc. In Dofus, if Spell Rebound reflected an attack, the opponent received the same amount of damage as the Feca would have received (it took the Feca's own resistances into account before applying the reflect damage to the opponent). Way more balanced on Dofus, oddly.

In pvp, that is such poor design. The reflect mechanic is fine; the fact that the Feca takes no damage during reflect is pretty imbalanced. However, what really makes it imbalanced is how there is a lack of counter strategy vs Spell Rebound. Most MMOs have reflect spells with an active "stance" mechanic that alerts enemies when they turn it on or something. It's the only way to provide some room for counter gameplay. Even in Dofus, Spell Rebound was an active ability that cost AP to use, and it alerted opponents and let them be more cautious if they wanted to, etc. In Wakfu, Spell Rebound is on all the time, for free.

Along with Spell Rebound's poor design, it seems to synergize too well with the rest of the new, reworked Feca skill set. The developers changed every single ability for Fecas in the latest patch, yet they left Spell Rebound untouched. They seemed to have overlooked how well Spell Rebound synergized with the new armors.

Thoughts?

tl;dr:

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Score : 1320

The class in general needs some reworks to bring it down to the level of other classes. Peace Armor is a big one as well. I'm sure it will get looked at as people will start complaining about it. (If they haven't already).

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I think its totally fair. Fecas had this skill and immunity in Dofus.

It only triggers once per turn. Feca's have no knock backs, and Feca's have no heals.

So yes, this skill makes a Feca.

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Synsane|2012-02-24 17:36:17
I think its totally fair. Fecas had this skill and immunity in Dofus.

It only triggers once per turn. Feca's have no knock backs, and Feca's have no heals.

So yes, this skill makes a Feca.
^^This.

Although with the name Spell Rebound, I understand why one might expect the Feca to take damage.

btw The Prism Rangers suck.
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Synsane|2012-02-24 17:36:17
I think its totally fair. Fecas had this skill and immunity in Dofus.

It only triggers once per turn. Feca's have no knock backs, and Feca's have no heals.

So yes, this skill makes a Feca.

It "only" triggers once per turn? Understatement alert!

Imagine a Sacrier gearing up to use an expensive attack on you that uses all their AP, some WP, etc, and then have it get reflected back at them. What that means is the Sacrier basically lost an entire turn, and in the process, explode themselves. AND after all that, the Feca took 0 damage.

That's the very definition of broken right there: an ability that 1) makes the opponent lose their turn, 2) makes the opponent explode themselves, and 3) makes the Feca take 0 damage.

^ All in the same turn (the enemy's turn, not yours, even!). AND it's a passive! It takes no strategy, no skill, nothing. It just activates and wins the game for you.
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Iife|2012-02-24 20:01:23
Synsane|2012-02-24 17:36:17
I think its totally fair. Fecas had this skill and immunity in Dofus.

It only triggers once per turn. Feca's have no knock backs, and Feca's have no heals.

So yes, this skill makes a Feca.

It "only" triggers once per turn? Understatement alert!

Imagine a Sacrier gearing up to use an expensive attack on you that uses all their AP, some WP, etc, and then have it get reflected back at them. What that means is the Sacrier basically lost an entire turn, and in the process, explode themselves. AND after all that, the Feca took 0 damage.

That's the very definition of broken right there: an ability that 1) makes the opponent lose their turn, 2) makes the opponent explode themselves, and 3) makes the Feca take 0 damage.

^ All in the same turn (the enemy's turn, not yours, even!). AND it's a passive! It takes no strategy, no skill, nothing. It just activates and wins the game for you.
Hey no one said you HAD to attack a player in PvP and if you feel you can't win against a Feca that challenges you just suicide and avoid them.
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It's not broken at all. It's a powerful skill, but as with other "OP" class feasures there's a definite workaround to it. Sram's double damage backstab and clones giving you trouble? There's a way to avoid that. Iop's high lock and lock and close range damage? This is more of a rock paper scissors class mechanic but yeah there's definitely a way to avoid that.

@Life The example you're giving is the extreme of the extreme. Assuming the player pumps all of his skill exp into smasher, then yeah he can get screwed over by rebound. That sort of inflexibility with skills is one of the flaws that they'll hopefully fix on release.

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pffff its only a 20% chaaaance lawl.

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Xelors have a 20 percent chance of getting ap/mp refunded on a spell. Ecaflips have a chance of getting a 500 percent damage buff on an attack and yet you complain about how strong the feca proc is?

There are other strong procs. It has a cap of 1 per turn ( so it will actually be statistically lower then 20 percent). It is also 1 of 2 skills that really defines Fecas as a tankier class (the other being peace armor).

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It's working as intended, that's how it worked in dofus, why would you take damage if you're reflecting the spell? Fecas have no knock backs, no heals, no easy movement abilities, no dodge, no lock, no hp bonuses. The only thing we have are cool shields. Our direct attack spells aren't great, and most our glyphs have tiny aoes.

As for the Sac scenario do you think it should be easy to attack or damage the "shield class" if they do remove spell rebound then it's only fair that all the other classes lose their def abilities so that we're the only class with any def spells and passives.

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Zekey9|2012-02-24 21:52:51

It has a cap of 1 per turn ( so it will actually be statistically lower then 20 percent).


You mean higher than 20%. The Spell Rebound can proc off any enemy attack, but the proc itself can only occur once per enemy's turn.

So, an enemy hits you three times? First hit = 20% chance, Second hit = 20% chance, third hit = 20% chance. There's a 60% chance that one of those hits will be reflected back. In other words, there's a 60% chance that this will happen: only two hits will land on the Feca, one of your hits will reflect back and damage yourself, and the Feca would take zero damage from that attack.

Also, note that we are talking about the enemy's turn this entire time. The Feca is not even doing anything; he's standing around, chilling.

Zekey9|2012-02-24 21:52:51
Xelors have a 20 percent chance of getting ap/mp refunded on a spell. Ecaflips have a chance of getting a 500 percent damage buff on an attack and yet you complain about how strong the feca proc is?


Those comparisons are total c rap compared to this; why are you even bringing Xelors' +1 AP up? Ecaflips' damage buff has a chance on their turn when they're using their own spells - not the enemy's. It's not the same thing at all.

When an enemy is about to do a 400 damage attack on the Feca, they're basically playing as an Ecaflip with no positive outcomes - only negatives. If it lands, the damage will be reduced by 60% from Peace Armor. If there's a reflect proc, the damage is not reduced and the full 400 damage gets slammed back in the enemy's face. That is horrible balance.

The worst thing about Spell Rebound is that there is no counter to it. It's not an active "stance" skill, where enemies are alerted when Fecas turn it on and can be more careful or something. It's always on passively. There is no counter to that at all. When fighting against Fecas, you're playing Russian roulette where you always lose somehow.
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Feca's are a shield class, of course most of our skills will effect the enemies turn. That argument is invalid.

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sockstoyourdoor|2012-02-24 22:36:32
Feca's are a shield class, of course most of our skills will effect the enemies turn. That argument is invalid.

Are you re tarded? As stated in the original post, there is no problem with the reflect effect of Spell Rebound.

The problem is in the fact that the Feca reflects 100% damage back to the enemy, wasting the enemy's turn, while taking 0 damage themselves, and that there is no counter because it's always on passively.

No other Feca armor does that. Every Feca armor has a counter. This isn't even an armor! It's a free passive that is always activated. Most MMOs in existence have an active "stance" mechanic for reflect effects, because that is the only way to provide room for countering. Wakfu's newest Feca rework is missing that option of counterplay. That is poor design.

If you can't see how Spell Rebound is imbalanced, you need to get your brain checked.
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Iife|2012-02-24 22:29:28
Zekey9|2012-02-24 21:52:51

It has a cap of 1 per turn ( so it will actually be statistically lower then 20 percent).


You mean higher than 20%. The Spell Rebound can proc off any enemy attack, but the proc itself can only occur once per enemy's turn.

So, an enemy hits you three times? First hit = 20% chance, Second hit = 20% chance, third hit = 20% chance. There's a 60% chance that one of those hits will be reflected back. In other words, there's a 60% chance that this will happen: only two hits will land on the Feca, one of your hits will reflect back and damage yourself, and the Feca would take zero damage from that attack.

Also, note that we are talking about the enemy's turn this entire time. The Feca is not even doing anything; he's standing around, chilling.

Zekey9|2012-02-24 21:52:51
Xelors have a 20 percent chance of getting ap/mp refunded on a spell. Ecaflips have a chance of getting a 500 percent damage buff on an attack and yet you complain about how strong the feca proc is?


Those comparisons are total c rap compared to this; why are you even bringing Xelors' +1 AP up? Ecaflips' damage buff has a chance on their turn when they're using their own spells - not the enemy's. It's not the same thing at all.

When an enemy is about to do a 400 damage attack on the Feca, they're basically playing as an Ecaflip with no positive outcomes - only negatives. If it lands, the damage will be reduced by 60% from Peace Armor. If there's a reflect proc, the damage is not reduced and the full 400 damage gets slammed back in the enemy's face. That is horrible balance.

The worst thing about Spell Rebound is that there is no counter to it. It's not an active "stance" skill, where enemies are alerted when Fecas turn it on and can be more careful or something. It's always on passively. There is no counter to that at all. When fighting against Fecas, you're playing Russian roulette where you always lose somehow.
Except that's not how percentages work. 3 attempts at 20% is not 60% total. 3 attempts for a 20% would be 1-(4/5)^3= 0.488 so roughly a 48% chance the spell will go off in those three hits. better odds than 20% but in no way the outcome you listed. There's a 48.8% chance one attack will be reflected and the other two will hit. There's also a 51.2% chance all three will hit you. So its 2 hits for sure and slightly better than 50% of 3 total hits on the feca.
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The only *** here is you. Spell rebound has always blocked and reflected 100% of the damage received even in dofus and it makes perfect sense and fits in the vision of the feca that ankama wanted. Every single class has a powerful passive that's tough to deal with. Get over yourself. If ankama hasn't changed it for years in their previous game despite all the qqqq, why would they change it now?

And as for free, it takes 20 skill points for the 20% chance to even work? By the time a feca even has spell rebound to 20, an iop already has a 40% damage passive, can get 100% bonus damage with authority in one turn with 6ap and has a free 20% bonus hp.

If you don't want to get nuked, don't cast a spell that can kill you, or use an area of effect spell. And as for your counter arguement. There are 0 ways to counter any passive ability. That's why it's a passive and not an active.

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sockstoyourdoor|2012-02-24 22:53:32

If you don't want to get nuked, don't cast a spell that can kill you, or use an area of effect spell. And as for your counter arguement. There are 0 ways to counter any passive ability. That's why it's a passive and not an active.

Don't cast a spell that can kill you? Have you even played Wakfu?

Everybody has 1 or 2 abilities leveled up. Forever. That's just how Wakfu is. Players don't have an arsenal of options like they did during lololdupeglitch week. If a player happens to have chosen to level up an expensive attack that costs all AP + some WP, etc, then that's the attack they are going to use vs a Feca. It's either that, or use a level 1 spell.

"But but, I have a cheap 2 AP attack that I can use 3 or 4 times in my turn! I will use that instead!!"

Feca goes LAWL because you will explode yourself from one of the Feca's armor skills if you rapidly attack 3 or 4 times in succession. The counter to Feca's armor skills is to A) don't fulfill the Armor's proc condition, or B ) use high burst damage instead of multiple attacks. Spell Rebound takes those counters and shoves them right back up the enemy's a ss.

So, tell me this. What would you do to counter a Feca's spell rebound? The answer: there is no counterplay that you can do. That's simply poor design.

^ HOORAY, main point of this thread achieved! Hopefully it has registered in people's brains by now. Sigh.
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I always leveled my spells up equally. If you're dumb enough to count on one spell to pwn all 12 classes of wakfu then you sir are stupid and WILL get pwned easily by all of your counter classes.

Once again no passive has a counter period. And if I was fighting a feca I would either use an aoe, a trap, a glyph, a spell that can't be reflected like a charge or that annoying thing sacs do, or a summon.

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Firstly, this is not Dofus. So why are people saying "even in Dofus!"

That's a terrible refute, and people say it all the time in these forums. Where's the intellect or thought process in that?

Secondly, Feca has too much going for it in general. You say it's a shield, so this skill makes sense, but what about all of it's other skills. Feca is just as much of an offensive nuke as it is a shield.

There's not much this class can't do, aside from summoning. But with the gamebreaking changes they made for it in this recent patch, I wouldn't be surprised if it could summon a pet by the 29th.

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sockstoyourdoor|2012-02-24 23:15:29
I always leveled my spells up equally. If you're dumb enough to count on one spell to pwn all 12 classes of wakfu then you sir are stupid and WILL get pwned easily by all of your counter classes.

Once again no passive has a counter period. And if I was fighting a feca I would either use an aoe, a trap, a glyph, a spell that can't be reflected like a charge or that annoying thing sacs do, or a summon.

So, your solution is to fail the spell exp system and dilute all of your exp into 10 different skills and ruin your character, making yourself weak and useless in team play, etc. Gotcha.

Sigh..

Orphiant|2012-02-24 23:20:08
Firstly, this is not Dofus. So why are people saying "even in Dofus!"

That's a terrible refute, and people say it all the time in these forums. Where's the intellect or thought process in that?

Secondly, Feca has too much going for it in general. You say it's a shield, so this skill makes sense, but what about all of it's other skills. Feca is just as much of an offensive nuke as it is a shield.

There's not much this class can't do, aside from summoning. But with the gamebreaking changes they made for it in this recent patch, I wouldn't be surprised if it could summon a pet by the 29th.


Finally a sane person!

Look, I play a Feca, and even I can acknowledge that certain Feca abilities are poorly designed. When it comes to a game that demands I invest my money in it, I expect there to be good balance. I'm not going to jump for joy at imbalanced Feca reworks, even if I'm playing a Feca myself.

I'm a believer in balance in pay-to-play MMOs, and if the balance is not there (or the developers are not striving for balance, at the very least), then that MMO isn't worth putting money into. It's as simple as that.
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Well my lv 44 air bow iop surely didn't get owned, and def wasn't useless for pvp or pve. I could fight people 10 lvs higher and still win actually. All his spells were pretty even and I enjoyed a nice bonus in extra air damage from the mastery.

And mentioning the way things were in dofus isn't a terrible refute, it's quite logically considering dofus is a prequel and purposely made wakfu characters based on their dofus version. Even the feca description says that the class hasn't changed much in the last 1,000 years. So how is it illogical to think that a lot of their spells will be the same, when they are currently the same?

Now it may seem that fecas have too much going for them, but so does every other class in wakfu? Since when can cras summon, since when can iops buff their team, since when can a srams double attack, since when can xelors teleport for nearly free every turn?

@Life as for the balance argument non of ankamas game's have ever been balanced they are based on the idea of counter classes. A feca for example will never beat an eni at high lvs. Heals just beat shields period. The only thing they could do to spell rebound is to make it rebound the damage the feca would have taken counting his resistances. But taking the damage rebounded doesn't make sense as a shield mechanic.

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