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So much for the idea that Rogue outdamages Feca

By Cyten - MEMBER - November 28, 2014, 01:54:18
Just as I thought, if speced right Feca can go beyond tank.
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Cyten|2014-11-28 01:54:18
Just as I thought, if speced right Feca can go beyond tank.

So damage vs. a shield and decent resists vs. damage against no shield and poor resists. In one vs. one PvP, during a time period where Feca could encase themselves in a 100% shield (no longer possible today).

What exactly are you trying to prove using this as an example? Put both of these players in a PvM scenario or against a neutral target without shields and the outcome is very different as far as raw numbers go.

• Mango
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A glass cannon is never supposed to be able to beat a tank in the first place.

This is why a Sadida can beat a Feca with quite ease.

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Also, Feca was 7 levels below the rogue..

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No way a Feca can out damage a rogue if thats the case the example rogue is terrible lol and same of sadida at 160 beating a 160 feca.. -Hitshot

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This inst an example of out damaging, its out tanking. The feca played absoultley horribly but he basically just armored up and took the hits, right now the only 2 specs that are able to kill feca are air sadi and fire sram with bled dry.

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But notice the Feca's damage numbers, they are much higher while being 7 levels lower than the rogue.

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One word, or even two. Gear and turn based gameplay. So in one word, wakfu.

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Cyten|2014-11-28 01:54:18
Just as I thought, if speced right Feca can go beyond tank.

Im with AdmiralWhiskey on this one.

You are confusing "outdamaging" with "winning a pvp fight".

Take this example:--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The feca ShieldyJane has 1200 hp, 60% resistance and deals 300 base damage per turn, and gains 200 shields.
The rogue SneakyBob has 900 hp, 50% resistance, and deals 600 base damage per turn.

SneakyBob *clearly* outdamages ShieldyJane. There is no discussion on this because 600dpt > 300dpt. Outdamages means "does more damage then". And Sneakybob clearly does more base damage then Shieldyjane.

But if SneakyBob and ShieldyJane fight, ShieldyJane wins:

It takes ShieldyJane 6 turns to kill SneakyBob: 300 jane's base damage*50% (100- sneakybob's resistance) = 150 dpt, 900/150 = 6. Meanwhile, it takes Bob 7 turns to kill Jane : 600 base*40% (100-janes resist)= 360 dpt, reduced by shields = 180dpt, since 6*180 = 1080, jane lives and kills bob (no matter who starts the fight).
-----------------------------------------end of example----------------------------------
You cannot just compare who dies first, or who has biggest numbers in a PvP fight, because the players are not atacking a target with equivalent resistances, health and defensive shielding.

Again, when someone "outdamages" someone else, they are not "better". They just do more base damage. The feca certainly had more resistances, possibly more health, and had shields absorbing part of the damage. You cannot metrify who did more base damage with the linked fight.

This kind of comparison has to be made in a controlled enviorment, so that the damage outputs can be independently compared.

To know who outdamages who, you can simply calculate based on elemental damage %, base spell damage and resources (AP/MP) for each one and know who has a larger output. But this is simplified because it would be a single target ideal cenario, which would likely disconsider rogue firewall damage and so forth. A realistic model would likely have to be a quite complicated simulation.

You can also test it in game in some controlled situation, say a feca and a rogue of the same level and equivalent item quality atacking one same target -who does not react or use any ability to not pullute the simulation- just to see who kills it first (for example another character who duels both). This way, both characters are dealing with the same resistances.

Take it from me. Rogues outdamage Fecas. Easy.
Im not saying fecas *lose* to rogues in pvp matches, i would be surprised if my feca did unless its the strongest of rogues. Im just saying rogues do more base damage.

Feca's entire class theme is aroud resistance, glyphs, shielding, etc. They can be quite viable in PvP because of their endurance, but in terms of raw damage im quite certain (though i speak from experience alone, i never actualy tried to math fecas vs all other classes) that we are on the very low end of base damage output.
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Here is why Feca out damages a rogue:

Natural Attack costs 2AP and deals -87HP, the skill that costs the same for Rogue is Machine Gun but it does only -42HP

The only comparable Rogue skill is Piercing shot, it deals -125HP but it costs 5AP.
Two times natural attack (4AP) is -174HP!

Another skill, Meteor Shower, also costs 2AP deals -46HP but twice the range of Machine Gun.

Volcanic Harmor lowers the resistance to fire while Feca Master increases the fire damage by 40%.

Not to mention Inversion.
It really doesn't make sense when you say that rogue is a dps class, it simply is not.

Feca can be both dps and tank class.

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AdmiralWhiskey|2014-11-28 17:32:44
This inst an example of out damaging, its out tanking. The feca played absoultley horribly but he basically just armored up and took the hits, right now the only 2 specs that are able to kill feca are air sadi and fire sram with bled dry.

Smart Sacriers can beat feca's as well.
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Cyten|2014-12-02 18:52:49
Here is why Feca out damages a rogue:
(...)

Look, your example is not valid for many reasons.

Firstly you have to compare each classes abilities to deal damage in a entire turn (or preferably, sustained in a sequence of turns and in varied situations), not just two spells independently.

Natural is a very high damage per AP spell (highest feca's have access too), but it is limited to 2/turn (4 ap total) - it is not the base for a feca's damage calculation. And rogues have multiple class mechanics that affects their DPT that are not considered when you look at one isolated spell.

Second, it is very difficult to accurately establish a rogue's DPT because it has class mechanics that affect it's calculation in complicated way.
Earth spells have low damage per Ap, but surprise shot may allow you to do additional "free" attacks after your spells. Air spells also have low damage per AP, but rogue master allows you to regain AP to have more overall casts. Fire spells create bombs /firewall which damage may be variable according to enemy actions, how many passives affect them (remote triggering), and when and in what position they are triggered.

Comparing one or two spell's base damage is hardly a valid argument in favor of either class.

Look, i like fecas. I see many problems with the class, many things i would change about it, but i have two fecas high level myself, and i wouldent if i didnt love the concept. I am not trying to convince you fecas do less damage then rogues (i personally think so based on my experience, and i think once you have played a bit more you will realize it yourself), or that you should play something else to be optimal. I am just writing here to try to show you why the kind of "argument" you are presenting is meaningless.

I do agree feca's can be damage dealers. I just think they are not particularly exceptional DD's, but not that they are incapable of preforming the role.

You are free to think whatever you want, but the moment you try to make a claim to the community (such as "class A outdamages class B"), it is important to make sure that you can actually back it up with real arguments (a in depth class mechanics analisys, a well thought representative model ,simulations, a vast ammount of sample data, there are many decent ways to go about it). The ones you are giving are noticably flawed at a first glance.
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