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Air vs Fire/air(iop)

By chuy89 February 22, 2012, 22:40:38

------ I played open beta, researched gear, and read a lot in forums. I was deciding whether to go fire/ap or straight air. I've read that fire/air is really strong if you end up getting 9 ap. Researching the gear needed to get ap, or even moving points into ap, I have noticed that you will be making sacrifices to get that ap. Either way, you will be losing hp.

------ I also research air iop's and noticed their optimal build, only 8ap is needed. I was thinking all they would need is the black crow set and maybe one of the more positive ap gear to make 8. The black crow set would even compliment them on their air damage.

------ I'm asking if anyone actually has the knowledge to explain if fire/air with 9ap makes that much of a build difference, to make up for the sacrifices, compared to a pure air iop who doesn't need to sacrifice all that hp, and will also get benefits of the crow set? I know the fire iop super damage combo is "thunderbolt, thunderbolt, celestial(plus even more damage from scalded targets), gust, uppercut" while the air preferred combo is "jab,jab,jab, gust,uppercut." (If i am wrong about any of my research, please let me know. Also, any opinions are welcomed, thanks! wink)

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I'm also curious about the difference in potential.

I would like to know the comparison to an 8 AP Air Iop compared to a 9 AP Fire Iop. I played an Air Iop with 8 AP and was happy with the results, but I'm wondering if Fire is much better, since I'll be playing late game at some point and I don't want to be heavily overshadowed by a Fire or Earth Iop.

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--------Im assuming that if a 9ap fire/air iop fought an 8ap air iop 1on 1, same support skills and gear, It would be the fire/air iop doing more damage for sure, with the above combo i posted. The only thing i think it would rely on, is if the fire/air iop can down the air iop before its hp runs out(because of its sacrifices).

---------So basically,(a very general example), a fire/air with 400hp dishing out 100 damage a turn, against an air iop with 600hp dishing out 75 damage a turn. After 5 turns of "combo'ing" each other, the fire/air's hp will be 25 hp while the air's hp will be 100hp. Regardless of the hp, both will be dead by next hit. So I think it makes them even? just preference on having more hp or dishing out more damage?

--------This is just my thought, not a fact. It's also a super general example of my thought.

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Well if we're comparing an Air Iop with 600 HP, that would be around the level I was (41) and I had 630+ HP and I was doing around 180 damage a turn on average without crits with 3 Jabs, Gutting Gust, and Uppercut (I didn't do the scroll exploit, mine was legit).

I would like to know of a Fire Iop that obtained 9 AP that was around my level so we could all get an accurate comparison. It would be greatly appreciated.

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-----------Well technically, we can just max out all their skills and hp according to the build and look at the numbers at max level. Then decide from there. A lot of math.. This seems rather tedious though
sleep 

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--------------------Wtf

------------------------Is

-----------------------This

--------------------------------------About?

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Score : 359

Well yeah generally it end up being a fire iops thunder+thunder+celestrial

vs

A air iops jabs+jabs+jabs+jabs+gust+uppercut.

Remember that most air iops will be leveling agility. Also most of the air sets have agility in place of pure air damage unlike before. Dungeon sets, for reference. A air iop's air resist is going to be extremely high like your fire resist should be. The problem however is that those resists+sets+more air levels through skills is going to almost negate the dmg you do through gust and upper. While their gust and uppercut will be doing more damage than yours ever would along with not being reduced via resists.

So the comparison is not fair. If you do it, it is your 3 hits vs their 6 hits.

Also unless crow set was changed.. it be optimal 9ap vs 10ap. As you gain nothing from 10ap, but air iops would. Even if it is just a tard+galeno+brooch+crow it is 10ap. The difference is that crow set is upper 80's. So you wouldnt have that situation till 90+.

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chuy89|2012-02-23 02:14:37
-----------Well technically, we can just max out all their skills and hp according to the build and look at the numbers at max level. Then decide from there. A lot of math.. This seems rather tedious though
sleep
I was just giving an example with my Iop. I'm just hoping that there's someone who made a Fire Iop that could share their damage/survivabilty potential.

Another thing though is that equips also come into play then just stats and spells. Like, A Fire build would be wearing this armor that gives them these benefits where Air will wear different armor and get different benefits aswell, like MP, AP, resists, stuff like that. That's the problem with my decision though because Air is so straightforward and everyone knows how to build them, but no one really talks about Fire and I have no for sure idea where they stand at. Maybe I missed something in the forums >:
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Lionisio|2012-02-23 03:08:54
chuy89|2012-02-23 02:14:37
-----------Well technically, we can just max out all their skills and hp according to the build and look at the numbers at max level. Then decide from there. A lot of math.. This seems rather tedious though
sleep
I was just giving an example with my Iop. I'm just hoping that there's someone who made a Fire Iop that could share their damage/survivabilty potential.

Another thing though is that equips also come into play then just stats and spells. Like, A Fire build would be wearing this armor that gives them these benefits where Air will wear different armor and get different benefits aswell, like MP, AP, resists, stuff like that. That's the problem with my decision though because Air is so straightforward and everyone knows how to build them, but no one really talks about Fire and I have no for sure idea where they stand at. Maybe I missed something in the forums >:

A fire iop is straight forward as well. The sekret sauce of a fire iop, or abnormal benefit, is a high crit build with wrath. It isn't a everyday every encounter situation, but when it is there, the potential damage output of AoEing belongs to the fire iops and fire iops alone.
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kuggy|2012-02-23 03:12:33
Lionisio|2012-02-23 03:08:54
chuy89|2012-02-23 02:14:37
-----------Well technically, we can just max out all their skills and hp according to the build and look at the numbers at max level. Then decide from there. A lot of math.. This seems rather tedious though
sleep
I was just giving an example with my Iop. I'm just hoping that there's someone who made a Fire Iop that could share their damage/survivabilty potential.

Another thing though is that equips also come into play then just stats and spells. Like, A Fire build would be wearing this armor that gives them these benefits where Air will wear different armor and get different benefits aswell, like MP, AP, resists, stuff like that. That's the problem with my decision though because Air is so straightforward and everyone knows how to build them, but no one really talks about Fire and I have no for sure idea where they stand at. Maybe I missed something in the forums >:

A fire iop is straight forward as well. The sekret sauce of a fire iop, or abnormal benefit, is a high crit build with wrath. It isn't a everyday every encounter situation, but when it is there, the potential damage output of AoEing belongs to the fire iops and fire iops alone.

I guess I can see that being a potential build besides TB,TB, Celestial Sword, Gutting Gust,Uppercut since they changed the WP cost to only 1 now, I'd like to see this be tested. I'm also wondering if you could combine them all, but that's 5 spells to level and that might hinder damage.

But if I were to go Fire I would go the traditional way instead of Iop's Wrath, unless it proves to be really good.
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Lionisio|2012-02-23 03:30:16
kuggy|2012-02-23 03:12:33
Lionisio|2012-02-23 03:08:54
chuy89|2012-02-23 02:14:37
-----------Well technically, we can just max out all their skills and hp according to the build and look at the numbers at max level. Then decide from there. A lot of math.. This seems rather tedious though
sleep
I was just giving an example with my Iop. I'm just hoping that there's someone who made a Fire Iop that could share their damage/survivabilty potential.

Another thing though is that equips also come into play then just stats and spells. Like, A Fire build would be wearing this armor that gives them these benefits where Air will wear different armor and get different benefits aswell, like MP, AP, resists, stuff like that. That's the problem with my decision though because Air is so straightforward and everyone knows how to build them, but no one really talks about Fire and I have no for sure idea where they stand at. Maybe I missed something in the forums >:

A fire iop is straight forward as well. The sekret sauce of a fire iop, or abnormal benefit, is a high crit build with wrath. It isn't a everyday every encounter situation, but when it is there, the potential damage output of AoEing belongs to the fire iops and fire iops alone.

I guess I can see that being a potential build besides TB,TB, Celestial Sword, Gutting Gust,Uppercut since they changed the WP cost to only 1 now, I'd like to see this be tested. I'm also wondering if you could combine them all, but that's 5 spells to level and that might hinder damage.

But if I were to go Fire I would go the traditional way instead of Iop's Wrath, unless it proves to be really good.

I leveled to the mid 80's legit and farmed the skill level scrolls painfully without duping. I did end up capping fire spells. I can tell you with 250% fire elemental affinity strength, and against moderately low fire resist monsters, I crit Wrath for 800s-1000 minus the explosion proc at the end. Normals were 400's.

It covers 12 squares if I remember right. You could easily PL it with melee monsters and wisdom stacking rings/gear later on down the road to the 50's easy. I wouldn't negate to PVPing with it unless oppurtunity is right, but in pve it is pretty golden.

You should level the traditional spell sequence for fire iop. However I am saying that you do have the options of eventually being a very potent AoE'er.

But yeah I did like 7k dmg on a crit in a riktus dungeon for 6ap 1wp when i hit a lot of them. Potential is there.
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I played a fire iop till lvl 56,then used scrolls till lvl93.

In most cases,Fire wins against air because of versitility.A air iop needs to be within 3 spaces of you(5 mp build)to get their max dmg,where a fire iop needs only to be within 5 spaces of you to SIP+bolt+flurry(9 ap build) into you for very good dmg compared to celestial+bolt+bolt combo dmg.there are ways around this,like maxing jump,but overall its going to take away from some very important passives that the fire iop did not have to pass on.Air iops i went against would usually waste more points getting to me than actually hurting me

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+ a fire iop can ignore uppercut and go with the 25% 1 wp damage passive, compulsion, jump, Authority, and vitality as well. With a strong fire bow like king borins this iop would pretty much own the map. 75% instant damage boost at 7 range, 175% instant damage boost in close combat.

+ burning damage doesn't get reduced by shields so fighting fecas would be much easier for you.

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This has been very helpful, thank you

Another question I have is should a Fire Iop get Gutting Gust and Uppercut? I feel this is an obvious yes but I would like to know for sure.

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Lionisio|2012-02-26 23:11:59
This has been very helpful, thank you

Another question I have is should a Fire Iop get Gutting Gust and Uppercut? I feel this is an obvious yes but I would like to know for sure.

Gutting Gust, yes. Uppercut, your choice. If you plan on maxing Jump or Increase, Uppercut is a no-no.
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Lionisio|2012-02-26 23:11:59
This has been very helpful, thank you

Another question I have is should a Fire Iop get Gutting Gust and Uppercut? I feel this is an obvious yes but I would like to know for sure.

Personally I would ignore those spells. Sure it's a little extra damage, but you've seen how powerful lv 100 spells are? Why waste spell exp into those weaker spells until all of your fire spells are maxed?

If you ignore these spells you'll gain the following.

1. Faster fights/ better speed bonus for ending your turn.

2. More exp going into your fire tree for more fire % damage and skill lvs

3. More wp to use since you aren't using uppercut. As a air iop for most of open beta my wp was always gone for every fight and that's with out jump. The less wp you use, the more you can wrath, jump, and use that 25% instant damage boost support spell.Plus when fighting a feca having a low lv gutting gust, and upper cut actually helps as a easy way to counter spell rebound.

ps. Gutting gust is not that important in pvp. You are rarely able to get it off anyway.
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sockstoyourdoor|2012-02-26 22:54:20
+ a fire iop can ignore uppercut and go with the 25% 1 wp damage passive, compulsion, jump, Authority, and vitality as well. With a strong fire bow like king borins this iop would pretty much own the map. 75% instant damage boost at 7 range, 175% instant damage boost in close combat.

+ burning damage doesn't get reduced by shields so fighting fecas would be much easier for you.

Well increase is just 25% to the base. Air iops flurry, which gives Aerial, is 10% multiplied to the total damage after other mods. Air iops got a nice lvl 45 crafted bow.

Also I am unsure but I do know that explosion damage isn't reduced either by the shields. But you do take 2 rebound hits for hitting with a fire spell and proccing explosion. I figure burning might do it too. Which case, it is actually worse.
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Burning is like poison, it doesn't reflect. Explosion shouldn't reflect either if you aren't next to the feca. I'll have to test it. But since the iop casts the spell on himself it shouldn't cause a reflect imho.

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Lionisio|2012-02-26 23:11:59
This has been very helpful, thank you

Another question I have is should a Fire Iop get Gutting Gust and Uppercut? I feel this is an obvious yes but I would like to know for sure.
gutting gust is most useful for PvE,but is also very good for PvP,just depends on the enemy.I like it because with my 5 ap build,i can gust 2 enemies in 1 turn in PvE,giving me more area dmg along with celest sword(I am a fire iop,arent I?)As for uppercut,I like it,but im starting to question it.After the game opens,Im going to see if a increase will overall give me more dmg as a fire iop(counting the increase in fire spell lvl i would get for not using it).Also seems good for a 1 hit wonder,because increase stacks.150%more dmg for 1 turn:blink:.Dont think its going to be worth 20 lvls of point with so many more useful passives.

Pretty sure explosion wont proct rebound.Its description say specificlly that it only happens once per turn cycle.Iops wrath is also counted as a AOE,which i think rebound does not work on(gonna test that).I've never had it happen.

Fun fact:If rebound procts on a super iop punch,it freezes you in mid air in a ridiculous poselaugh
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Explosion does trigger the reactive shield on a feca to hit you back. Least melee range. Isn't a guess. Isn't some assumption. As of the build up to the wipe, explosion triggered the armor reactive for melee. Cause you know, I got hit twice for 145 damage or so for one hit off wrath to a Feca that also procced explosion.

Also increase if you stacked it 6 times at cap just be 150% damage to the base of the spell. Same way Bravery Standard just adds like normal elemental damage off gear mods. Only a few, very few, damage mods are actually a multiply of the total damage after the other dmg mods are accounted for.

Increase was worth more before the hp change. Still I guess you could stagger it at 1-2 hits per round but just dont think its as good as it once was. Even then I would only get it as a Earth iop or maybe fire.

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