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Thoughts on Iop

By ShijiLeetSauce February 09, 2012, 23:24:56
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I have a level 53 air iop and a level 40 earth cra. My Cra is almost doing as much damage as the iop already. Dunno what you're talking about, i'm sure my cra will do more damage once he is 53.

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b-baller|2012-02-14 05:50:11
That is only really applicable to success vs failure situations in my opinion. By success vs failure I mean a situation like "will this build will work?" When it comes to situations like this, which I view as different, I don't think it applies. I am often one to take the unbeaten path so statements like that have set me off sometimes because history is full of examples in which everyone believed in something only to eventually learn they were all wrong and the one guy they criticized was right.

Oh I wasn't talking about literally everything :3 , if someone finds out a skill build or an item build that's really good and can prove it then that's all they'll need. I was referring to people receiving advice and being stubborn about it and disregarding everything people tell them when it could possibly be correct and help them. If they never took helpful advice it could lead them to go a path that would hinder their abilities. I've seen this happen a few times and it took them until level 40 or so till they realized the advice given could have saved them from re-rolling. But if they were to go their own path in order to find a build that suits them and it's successful then that's awesome, and I would be jealous.
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@ lion Ah gotcha

LeunKiithsaHunter|2012-02-14 18:15:46
High damage abilities? Jab and Thunderstrike are pretty pathetic until the player levels compulsion, elemental damage, and authority; and seeks out AP and MP gear--others classes do benefit from this as well. Stop lying to the community, and only argue points that highlight the cons of certian classes, and misleads with false pros about others.

A level 23 Jab is 8 damage base. That-is-weak. Three jabs equates to six ability points; which is 24 damage with nothing boosting the damage. There are other classes who don't even have to use passives to outshine damage like that in one turn.

What a load of bullshyt that is being thrown around about Iop.The fact people are trying to argue a melee dps class with little utility is doing more damage at melee then a range dps with utility is laughable.

A individual wants to argue balance is all well in good until points become highly skewed, bias, and generalized; even worse players are willing to actually lie about Iops, so they can turn them into an easy kill. All I see is individuals who can't comprehend or critically think. The Iop has been weakened time and again because of bad development, and now the player base has a very generic-bulldozing-water down melee class who does one thing: damage

Now a few baddies want to take away what Iop has going for it? Then what do the Iops become?
Mobility is GD choir until flatten and Jump is level 9. A player can only use jump as many times as he has Wakfu. Flatten has a chance to stun the player as much as his opponent, and the Iop had to dump specialty points into those specialties to make them even remotely viable, but lets discount or discredit those facts.

Lets also make up stories that an Iop does not have to take compulsion, expert locker, virility, and authority to even come anywhere near what everyone is complaining about. Iops have next to no wiggle room for custimization.

Iop's play style is move forward, and do damage. Buncha GD baddies whining they were touched by the big mean Iop who out played them, or out leveled them.

People are complaining about Iop when a tank Feca can do equivalent damage? Christ their are videos out their that attest to this. People wanna whine about Iop when Srams can steal MP, HP, and AP in absurd amounts? People wanna bish about Iop when Sacriers can stack HP, Vigrrous, Anggrr, Morbbid, and Blood Pact; with all their mobility and utility?

Fcking hypo-critics. The grass is always greener isn't it?

GD sheep man, GD sheep.


Alright.... so...
The statements you made lead me to think you have a smaller amount of experience with the iop class (may or may not be true) and by thunderstike ill assume you mean thunder bolt

I don't think your realizing the amount of base damage other classes have per ap, if you take a look at that then you should realize that the damage per ap on an iop is pretty good. Along with that you should keep in mind the convenient ap costs of some or their spells, 2 ap 3 ap and 4ap are all easy numbers to work with. In addition i don't think you recognize the iop is one of the 2 classes that can effectively use all the points for dmg (the other being sram).

Take a look at uppercut an gust at 100 the base damage from the two is 70, 35-40 ish at 50. Which with can come out as an extra 100 damage or so in the right situation. I just don't think its correct to argue that the Iops don't have high base damages by saying their spells aren't that strong. What keeps them in check for the most part is the number of spells they have to lvl. While most classes can focus on one or 2 the Iop generally focuses on 3 maybe even four, and that is what cuts their base damage.

But only by so much.

The iop class has utility, its a tank if you haven't realized yet, has specialities that give it the ability to lock better as well as specialities that give it more health (infact an iop can have almost as much hp asa sacrier) By the level 100 if I'm correct the sacrier one on one with an iop would have only like 240 hp less, ignoring set bonuses.

Mobility is an issue for many classes along with the iop, but I think you fail to realize half of the classes in this game are also melee along with the vast majority of monsters that you will find yourself against. In fact I really can't name a monster that is not melee that I train against. In addition expert locker is intended to help keep longer ranged enemies with in your grasps

and then the part where you listed the specialities, yes they do need those to get where people are talking about but the fact that they need those does not in anyway shape or form make them less powerful. They need them, and they have them. Yeah its true they have little wiggle room for customization when it comes to specialities, but who really needs it? I mean why complain about a formula that works? In addition taking a look at their other specialties, they can get some serious bonuses in the right situations. Although many of the iops max the same things i think its important to realize that those are some good specialities.

And lastly just because there are other things going on that are messed up, does not mean the players lack the ability to point another thing they see wrong.

I do believe the iop is fine where it is, not because of the reasons you've posted, but because of the amount of spells it has to level.
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LeunKiithsaHunter|2012-02-14 18:15:46
A level 23 Jab is 8 damage base. That-is-weak. Three jabs equates to six ability points; which is 24 damage with nothing boosting the damage. There are other classes who don't even have to use passives to outshine damage like that in one turn.

Lvl 100 Jabs is 30 base damage...

Let's look at other 2 AP air spells at lvl 100

Homing Arrow (Cra): -15
Fear (Sram): -20
Bwork Trump (Osa): -16
Temporal Distortion (Xelor): -17
Claw Attack (Ecaflip[Closed Beta]): -22
Shrapnel Shot(Rouge[Closed Beta]): -22

...the difference between Jabs and the next highest 2 AP spells (that aren't even in the game anymore) is more than the difference between those spells and the LOWEST 2 AP spell.

I'm sorry, -30 damage for 2 AP is completely ridiculous. That's about as much damage as most 3 AP attacks do.

Seriously, if the number you pulled out for comparison is a lvl 23 jabs I get the feeling your Iop isn't very high.

and Thunderbolt is even worse if you have high AP.

If Amakna is really dedicated to balancing the class around stupidly high base damage spells that's their choice. I'd rather they reduce those spells to more reasonable levels and adjust other things up from there like maybe returning jump closer to how it used to be.

As long as Iop has these insanely high damaging spells the class is pretty much FORCED to be balanced around how much movement it can have. Every patch they have to shoot Iops in the foot more and more until it'll get to the point that it'll become worthless. It will be very difficult to try and find the exact level of movement an Iop needs to warrant that kind of a damage boost.

My point is that Amakna seems to be trying so hard to balance Iop around his high base damage spells when it would just be easier to balance Iop around something else such as high elemental damage support skills.
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That's-all-they-can-do-is-damage. I rightly don't care how much base is given for a 2 point ap because everyone is neglecting the specialties other classes are given that can out pace damage.Every class scales in this game, and saying Iops have this, this, this, and this without making correlations, mechanics, gear, and point allocation doesn't suddenly turn Iops into pve/pvp gods by any stretch of the imagination.

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LeunKiithsaHunter|2012-02-15 04:38:23
That's-all-they-can-do-is-damage. I rightly don't care how much base is given for a 2 point ap because everyone is neglecting the specialties other classes are given that can out pace damage.Every class scales in this game, and saying Iops have this, this, this, and this without making correlations, mechanics, gear, and point allocation doesn't suddenly turn Iops into pve/pvp gods by any stretch of the imagination.
Could we get some statistics/evidence to back up your argument, cause right now this is an unbacked opinion.
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Nope, I didn't come into the IOP forums screaming bloody murder that Iops are OP, and I'm not going to argue points when those who are accusing the Iop of being op without no factual information.

Classes do not mirror one another in Wakfu, and their is no harmonization--outside of hp, mp, and ap--so I find all the arguments in here to be weak and placid. How an Iop is played and leveled is not the same how a Cra, Sadida, Enutrof, Sacrier, Xelor, Sram, Pandawa, Ecaflip, Rogue, Masq, and Eni is played, geared, ability/specialty allocated, and so on.

Every single argument has been generalized.

I.E because the Iop has this, and the Cra does not have this, now makes the Iop overpowered.

I.E Because other classes have weaker base 2 ap attacks, and the Iop has a stronger 2 ap base attack makes the Iop over powered.

Everyone of you is making either/or, hasty/sweeping generalizations, begging the question, and now false analogy fallacies.

Just like a faux, everything that has been presented is argued in a manner to discredit a class without bringing in all the facts, correlations, and mechanics of other classes. It isn't popular opinion, and 3 people do not make a consensus.

Edit: Oh what the hell.

Wakfu Attack: Has detailed guides on many classes showing their strengths and weaknesses.
Click here

Everfaust: Argues the huge flaws with Sram, and is able to back those arguments up with some credibility. Click here

Wakfu Elements: Helps players make informed decisions instead of pointing fingers for their own stupidity and negligence. Click here

Wakfu Wiki: Yet again another site that allows players to make informed decisions on how to play their class to optimization. Click here

But yeah Iop is totally Op because the Iop does damage.

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I'm sorry but an iop is not an tank, there is NO class that is really a tank. Sure you can BUILD a tank, you can spec tanky.

As far as I know there are no specialties or abilities that mitigate damage whether it be damage reduction or similar. I'm aware of block but as of right now it seems a broken mechanic.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLESPVwBcN0&feature=iv&src_vid=Uu8tSvPaESE&annotation_id=annotation_436340]Click here

The above video is an end-game dungeon in dofus right now you could argue the sac is that tank but seeing as putting points into anything but vit in dofus is stupid thats the only reason hes tanky.

And yes this is wakfu but it still applies, unless they add mechanics differently or some mitigation damage support spell or something any class can be tanky, therefore any class can "tank" or so you say.

Also on a side note there is no perma damage like in dofus so an eni can heal an entire team to full thus not even needing a tank unless it has a taunt or something.

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Balance is relative.

What one person considers too powerful another person might think is balanced.

There really is no way to check if something is 'overpowered' besides having the best players at each class go against each other a set number of times and see which one comes out on top and by what margin. Even then that class is only 'overpowered' at that specific level of play at that specific activity.

That said, saying Iops can only do damage is a rather large stretch. They have some of the best survivability in the game because of Virility and Defensive Stance if they opt to put points into them.

Am I not bringing in all the facts, correlations, and mechanics of other classes? Sure, I don't feel like writing a book just to juxtapose Iop against other classes just to show how good some of their *** is.

But saying that I'm not using factual information when I just gave you an example of how Iop's base damage on some of their spells are pretty ridiculous is a bit silly itself.

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The only thing ridiculous is the comparison you've made. Increase the cost of Jab or lower the base damage of Jab and suddenly Air Iop will become under powered. Increase the cost of Thunderbolt or decrease the damage and the Fire Iop will suffer immensely until reaching 9AP, and of which requires time, effort, and gear to acquire.

Like I stated: Sweeping generalizations, fallacy upon fallacy, and numbers presented in a manner that try to caste Iop in a light they aren't even in.

Your argument is because Iop has a stronger base damage on certian ap to damage ratios makes them over powered. That is your entire argument, and you only show specific numbers to prove that argument, but what you lack to show is how the classes play, gear, and allocate their points both into abilities and specialties that make them on par with Iop or even more powerful then Iop.

You have yet to present anything factual, and are arguing complete bias.

A Feca has specialties that increase their mitigation, and decrease their enemies mitigation; while casting glyphs for support and hammering at a player with weapons well above their level due to not needing or relying on spells, and able to invest into kit abilities, and their spells do comparable damage to Iops because of the Feca places an enemy in a state of decreased mitigation while at the same time raising their own.

A Sacrier in group play out paces Iops when Viggrous, Anggrrr, and Blood Pact is maxed out. They bring more utility to the group through Air spells, and Specialties to keep players from harm, and can raise their damage easily when tanking damage that brings them level with Iops, or any other DPS for that matter.

A Sram can stack HP and virtually destroy groups of mobs when using Double, and through Air and Water combinations steal AP, HP, and MP will doing comparable damage to Iops because of master stabber, stacking critical, look around you, and so on. Arguing that a Sram has positional attacks when given the tools to get in those positions makes that argument moot.

You refuse to do these step by step comparisions of damage, wakfu costs, specialties, abilities, and gear because your argument would become invalid, and suddenly Iop is not this OP thing you'd like to make the class out to be. Once again: Just because of a few classes are facing balancing issues at the moment does not make the Iop OP.

There are plenty of other classes doing well, or even in need of a nerf, and Iop is not one of them.

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LeunKiithsaHunter|2012-02-15 08:35:45
There are plenty of other classes doing well, or even in need of a nerf, and Iop is not one of them.

If Iops are fine then every class that doesn't start with S is in need of a buff, which is really how I hope they do it. I would much rather see other classes buffed than anyone (other than Srams) get nerfed.
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LeunKiithsaHunter|2012-02-15 08:35:45
The only thing ridiculous is the comparison you've made. Increase the cost of Jab or lower the base damage of Jab and suddenly Air Iop will become under powered. Increase the cost of Thunderbolt or decrease the damage and the Fire Iop will suffer immensely until reaching 9AP, and of which requires time, effort, and gear to acquire.

That's why I said lower the base damage while increasing the elemental damage on their passive skills to compensate. Doing this immediately gets rid of Iops low level advantage and actually introduces a way to counter the Iops damage instead of derp derp need more HP.

Depending on how much or how little you increase the elemental damage to compensate you can then increase other things as well such as increasing their mobility maybe a bit closer to Dofus / Early Closed Beta.

Your argument is because Iop has a stronger base damage on certain ap to damage ratios makes them over powered. That is your entire argument


...that's not my argument at all.
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