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Air iop OP?

By CloudyMind - MEMBER - January 05, 2014, 03:36:30
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Score : 3440
CloudyMind|2014-01-14 16:32:16
I completely agree with you. This is why i strongly believe that fire sacriers are pointless and useless. I have already explained that your increased hp don't give you any extra protection in a fight because you end up damaging yourself way too much, so in truth, you are just like any other class, except you have the grand illusion that you can survive more. If you try to manipulate the map and tank as a fire sacrier, you will fail and die for sure.

This is exactly why fire sacrier has no role or purpose in the game and also why earth sacrier is the only real choice that you are presented with.

This is why fire sacriers are underpowered... or it could be that making them tanky as well as good dd would be too OP, in which case iops have to be balanced out as per these standards placed on fire sacriers.

Iops are meant to be THE melee damage class. The fact that it does more damage than a Fire Sac shouldn't be much a surprise. That being said, If two classes have the same role and one does it better than the other, it doesn't make the second class useless. Sacs have a variety of skills that benefit a team more than an Iop ever could. Damage isn't everything, ESPECIALLY in 100+ level content. Sacs are a team synergetic class in any element. Iops....not so much.

Also, you may want to change the title of the thread OP, as we seem to be only comparing Air Iop and Fire Sac.
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WhiteClover|2014-01-14 17:45:18
Damage % difference: Your complaint, though valid, ignores the fact that a sac can hit an enemy nearly 100% of the time as well as position people to places to either deal more damage or to save people. Any damage the would be impossible before the positioning is attributed to the sac. Overall a fire sac can add more damage to enemy through casual map manipulation + hitting. Especially considering many mobs have insane res to certain elements. The fact that a sac can get people to where they need to go as well as deal massive damage helps a lot.

Positioning: True an iop can escape easier than fire sac, however I've never seen a sac have difficulties escaping an enemy if necessary. An iop can only use the escape 6 times. Or, in the case of an air iop, less due to them using WP on a certain other air combo spell...

Base damage: You're comparing the typical 9 ap fire sac to a 10 ap air iop which seems off. Of course 10 ap air iop will have more base damage - it can utilize more ap/mp efficiently. Once ap gear becomes more abundant - fire sacs will be able to get to 11 ap with ease allowing a drastic increase in damage and potential. At the same time, air iops need to sacrifice to get to 12 ap to decrease this barrier.

Survivability: How in the world does a fire sac only have 100% resistance in its main element? Both my xelor and iop (duel elements) have circa 200% res in their elements and they're in easily obtainable lvl 100 equipment. The bonus hp is more of a buffer than actual hp buff. I do agree they should rework this aspect of fire sac though - perhaps by decreasing damage.

Overall I find fire sacs to be more useful than air iops. Where all an iop has going for itself is hitting hard, a sac can hit hard, can map manipulate, can tank when necessary - overall many uses in a battle field. I can't even count the number of times that a sac used its turn, got killed, insta raised to hit incredibly again, followed by eni raising it to full hp the following turn. Basically 3 turns before an enemy can start theirs again. Or when eni has 1 hp left and was saccd and/or removed out of line of fire easily - while still being able to deal great damage that turn. The raw damage may not be equal to that of an iop, but I'd rather have a fire sac than an iop in many late game scenarios. (Especially if its a hybrid fire/air or fire/earth).

Clover's explanation is a good one^.

CloudyMind|2014-01-14 16:32:16
I completely agree with you. This is why i strongly believe that fire sacriers are pointless and useless. I have already explained that your increased hp don't give you any extra protection in a fight because you end up damaging yourself way too much, so in truth, you are just like any other class, except you have the grand illusion that you can survive more. If you try to manipulate the map and tank as a fire sacrier, you will fail and die for sure.

This is exactly why fire sacrier has no role or purpose in the game and also why earth sacrier is the only real choice that you are presented with.

This is why fire sacriers are underpowered... or it could be that making them tanky as well as good dd would be too OP, in which case iops have to be balanced out as per these standards placed on fire sacriers.

I gave you a simple one line answer because you use contradictory and blanket statements that ignore so many aspects others have raised about Sac's (including yourself). I felt it was all the response it deserved.

I highlighted 5 statements in your last post about how useless you feel Sacrier is. How can they be useless as they are now... yet OP if they were given some 'good dd' options?

Sacriers can tank mobs far better than an Iop. Many Dragon Pig strategies use a Sac. I don't know anyone using an Iop. Lets say that same Sac tanking DP wants to go and run Excarnus. That is a blitz fight for most teams. I think it's nice that a Sac can whip out it's fire spells and contribute with attacks or as Clover mentioned, positioning.

Also, I use a Sac paired with an Iop to tank Magmog instead of Panda. Take this however you want.
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WhiteClover|2014-01-14 17:45:18
Overall I find fire sacs to be more useful than air iops. Where all an iop has going for itself is hitting hard, a sac can hit hard, can map manipulate, can tank when necessary - overall many uses in a battle field. I can't even count the number of times that a sac used its turn, got killed, insta raised to hit incredibly again, followed by eni raising it to full hp the following turn. Basically 3 turns before an enemy can start theirs again. Or when eni has 1 hp left and was saccd and/or removed out of line of fire easily - while still being able to deal great damage that turn. The raw damage may not be equal to that of an iop, but I'd rather have a fire sac than an iop in many late game scenarios. (Especially if its a hybrid fire/air or fire/earth).

Any other class can tank as well as a fire sacrier can. You think that fire sacriers can tank because they have alot of hp, but even if the sacrier has 200% fire resistance and 400% damage, the self damage is still too much. The increased hp means nothing. Fire sacriers can't tank.

Also, you can't map manipulate and also deal massive damage on the same turn. In most cases, you ll hardly have any ap to deal any damage at all. Even if you only use attraction and still have all your ap, i wouldn't call a fire sacrier's damage massive, especially since iops can hit harder.

About the 3 turns in a row, you do realize that resurrecting someone makes them permanently lose ap, doesn't fully heal them and in the case of a sacrier, the eni definately can't get them to full hp on the same turn as resurrecting them. Even if the eni was somehow able to fully heal the sacrier's hp on the same turn, wouldn't that remove the sacrier's bonus damage?
Also, what are the odds of that happening anyway? Having an eni go on the next turn and also killing yourself with your self damage on that exact turn. Not very likely, especially considering that an opponent will go after the sacrier's turn, assuming that the two teams are equal in numbers.

And even if that's the case, what comes out of it? The sacrier's best asset is dying...
That's one bad joke.

Gynrei|2014-01-14 18:49:25
CloudyMind|2014-01-14 16:32:16
I completely agree with you. This is why i strongly believe that fire sacriers are pointless and useless. I have already explained that your increased hp don't give you any extra protection in a fight because you end up damaging yourself way too much, so in truth, you are just like any other class, except you have the grand illusion that you can survive more. If you try to manipulate the map and tank as a fire sacrier, you will fail and die for sure.

This is exactly why fire sacrier has no role or purpose in the game and also why earth sacrier is the only real choice that you are presented with.

This is why fire sacriers are underpowered... or it could be that making them tanky as well as good dd would be too OP, in which case iops have to be balanced out as per these standards placed on fire sacriers.

I gave you a simple one line answer because you use contradictory and blanket statements that ignore so many aspects others have raised about Sac's (including yourself). I felt it was all the response it deserved.

I highlighted 5 statements in your last post about how useless you feel Sacrier is. How can they be useless as they are now... yet OP if they were given some 'good dd' options?


I simply suggested the posibility that giving sacriers better damage and also better tanking capabilities could potentially make them overpowered.

My earth sacrier right now has 59 block, 3200hp in a full team, 270 lock, 154% resistance to water and 227% resistance to the other 3 elements. She can shield herself with 10% of her total hp without sanguine armor, 20% with. She can reduce healing recieved and hp gained of a target by 40%. I have all the mobility and survivability spells maxed out. My damage is 300 at most on low resistances, but i'm alright with that because i am a beast tank. I can lock anything, move anything and survive way longer than any other class would. When i map manipulate, i don't care about not attacking. My damage is so low that it barely matters and i can rely on my high block to survive, so i don't need to apply my shields every turn.

If i change to fire, i'd have about 1800hp, only have high resistances on fire, i'd be damaging myself every turn and my block and lock would be barely sufficient, if that. I would however have alot more damage than i have now. However, if i tried to manipulate the map like i normally would as an earth sacrier, i would put my far more fragile self in harm's way and also wouldn't be able to deal decent damage. Huh?

So, what's the point of actively map manipulating when you are fire? You can't map manipulate and also deal damage on the same turn but even if you only focus on one thing, you can't deal as much damage as other classes and you also can't map manipulate as efficiently as an earth sacrier. So, if that's the case, then what's the point in being a fire sacrier? What exactly is your role as a fire sacrier? A mediocre damage dealer/support than more often than not dies?

Sram's aside, being a stealth class, iops and knights and sacriers are berserkers. They are supposed to charge in the front line and go wild. So why is it that an air iop is way stronger than a fire sacrier ni terms of damage? I would understand that if a fire sacrier could deal damage and also simutaneously map manipulate, but this isn't the case. It's not fair for fire sacriers to be at a disadvantage just because they have the option to sacrifice some or all of their damage to manipulate the map, especially since they are obviously not well suited to do that.

At the end of the day, would you pick a fire or an earth sacrier for tanking in a dungeon for your group? Would you pick a fire sacrier or an air iop for dd? In both cases, fire sacriers get outclassed
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CloudyMind|2014-01-15 18:30:22
Any other class can tank as well as a fire sacrier can. You think that fire sacriers can tank because they have alot of hp, but even if the sacrier has 200% fire resistance and 400% damage, the self damage is still too much. The increased hp means nothing. Fire sacriers can't tank.

Also, you can't map manipulate and also deal massive damage on the same turn. In most cases, you ll hardly have any ap to deal any damage at all. Even if you only use attraction and still have all your ap, i wouldn't call a fire sacrier's damage massive, especially since iops can hit harder.

About the 3 turns in a row, you do realize that resurrecting someone makes them permanently lose ap, doesn't fully heal them and in the case of a sacrier, the eni definately can't get them to full hp on the same turn as resurrecting them. Even if the eni was somehow able to fully heal the sacrier's hp on the same turn, wouldn't that remove the sacrier's bonus damage?
Also, what are the odds of that happening anyway? Having an eni go on the next turn and also killing yourself with your self damage on that exact turn. Not very likely, especially considering that an opponent will go after the sacrier's turn, assuming that the two teams are equal in numbers.

And even if that's the case, what comes out of it? The sacrier's best asset is dying...
That's one bad joke.

You don't seem to be listening.

It's not all about the Sac's own dmg numbers. It was mentioned how positioning an opponent in an advantageous position potentially INCREASES the damage 5 other members of your party can inflict. That damage should rightfully be attributed to the Sac.

Fire Sac's can't tank you say? For one, there is nothing stopping the Sac gearing defensively and using his Lock stat to simply position and hold mobs for the team. Limiting their field of Fire reduces dmg your team takes. They can still Sacrifice others taking the damage for them. The HP a fire sac has is extremely helpful by allowing more HP to healed overall than other classes. It lowers heal res stacking. Lets them take bigger hits. It's not all about having the highest resistance or best coagulation. Which brings me to my next point. A Fire Sac can cast Earth spells and gain coagulation just like an Earth Sac without placing more than 1level into each spell. Heaven forbid the Sac is multi-element too.

The burst dmg from a Fire Sac dying... cling dmg... raise and attacking again is easy to pull off. Just because this only happens upon death most times doesn't mean you get to discount it. It's a massive bonus to their overall dmg inflicted in a fight. Most classes would love to have an Ace up their sleeve like that.

I'm not saying a Sac is better than an Iop. Both have their strengths and are better in some situations. I'm saying, a Fire Sac is far from useless.
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Here's why fire/earth hybrid doesn't work. You need Angrrr, Moribund, Clinging to Life, Blood pact, Attraction and Transposition. Youd have to be around 115 level to have all these. At max level, you can pick between Tattooed Blood, Sanguine Armor and Sacrifice. If you don't have sacrifice and tattooed blood, you can't protect your allies. Your coagulation would be too low to even matter and fire gear gives way less hp than a tanking set, so casting earth spells would be nearly pointless. If you do take tattooed blood and sacrifice, you'd have to leave out moribund, argnnn or cling to life. Moribund and cling to life pretty much go together because of how well they synergize, but leaving argnn out would also be 100% less damage on cling. Cling would be pointless without moribund because you wouldn't have that extra 40% bonus on 1 hp left nor the other twp 20% bonuses for having low hp.

If you go for fire and decide to be tanky (which i have tried before), you'd have to choose between punishment and sanguine armor. Both use wakfu and both are equally useful. You also wouldn't have angrr, cling and moribund, so that's 180% bonus damage gone and your extra turn gone.

Doing a bit of both just isn't possible.

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CloudyMind|2014-01-15 18:30:22
If i change to fire, i'd have about 1800hp, only have high resistances on fire, i'd be damaging myself every turn and my block and lock would be barely sufficient, if that. I would however have alot more damage than i have now. However, if i tried to manipulate the map like i normally would as an earth sacrier, i would put my far more fragile self in harm's way and also wouldn't be able to deal decent damage. Huh?

So, what's the point of actively map manipulating when you are fire? You can't map manipulate and also deal damage on the same turn but even if you only focus on one thing, you can't deal as much damage as other classes and you also can't map manipulate as efficiently as an earth sacrier. So, if that's the case, then what's the point in being a fire sacrier? What exactly is your role as a fire sacrier? A mediocre damage dealer/support than more often than not dies?

Sram's aside, being a stealth class, iops and knights and sacriers are berserkers. They are supposed to charge in the front line and go wild. So why is it that an air iop is way stronger than a fire sacrier ni terms of damage? I would understand that if a fire sacrier could deal damage and also simutaneously map manipulate, but this isn't the case. It's not fair for fire sacriers to be at a disadvantage just because they have the option to sacrifice some or all of their damage to manipulate the map, especially since they are obviously not well suited to do that.

At the end of the day, would you pick a fire or an earth sacrier for tanking in a dungeon for your group? Would you pick a fire sacrier or an air iop for dd? In both cases, fire sacriers get outclassed

It's funny not enough people realize this. YOU CAN FILL BOTH ROLES. I'm talking about Fire Sac DPS and Earth Sac tank or even Map Manipulator. You may not be able to them all at the same time, because that would be OP... but you have that option when needed. And guess what... sometimes manipulating the map with all your AP will result in more dmg than an Iop could do in your place. Even saving an allies life by locking mobs or sacrificing them results in more dmg than that Iop could have. You have to know when to do what.

A Fire Sac can do everything an Earth Sac can because they are the same class. A pure Earth Sac has a few more elemental% dmg and maybe a higher level earth spell or two.

You can switch between a pure Earth or Fire setup and plus manipulate the map. All without putting yourself in harms way. You could also use hybrid Fire/Earth gear and play more conservatively. Up to you.

So why is it that an air iop is way stronger than a fire sacrier ni terms of damage?

We've told you already. And to say Sacriers are obviously not well suited to manipulate the map is ridiculous.

CloudyMind|2014-01-15 19:24:41
Here's why fire/earth hybrid doesn't work. You need Angrrr, Moribund, Clinging to Life, Blood pact, Attraction and Transposition. Youd have to be around 115 level to have all these. At max level, you can pick between Tattooed Blood, Sanguine Armor and Sacrifice. If you don't have sacrifice and tattooed blood, you can't protect your allies. Your coagulation would be too low to even matter and fire gear gives way less hp than a tanking set, so casting earth spells would be nearly pointless. If you do take tattooed blood and sacrifice, you'd have to leave out moribund, argnnn or cling to life. Moribund and cling to life pretty much go together because of how well they synergize, but leaving argnn out would also be 100% less damage on cling. Cling would be pointless without moribund because you wouldn't have that extra 40% bonus on 1 hp left nor the other twp 20% bonuses for having low hp.

If you go for fire and decide to be tanky (which i have tried before), you'd have to choose between punishment and sanguine armor. Both use wakfu and both are equally useful. You also wouldn't have angrr, cling and moribund, so that's 180% bonus damage gone and your extra turn gone.

Doing a bit of both just isn't possible.

The level cap is 140, not 115. Your right, casting Earth spells for dmg as a tank is pointless. You're there to fill a role, tank, not DPS.
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I also would like to put out there that i actually enjoy this discussion. I am not trying to be hostile or anything just because i defend my points. I do agree that fire sacriers have an arsenal to their disposal that air iops, or any iops for that matter, do not have. That arsenal is, however, so disfunctional that i think it renders it a consolidation gimmick at best. That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially since i was a fire sacrier originally but was forced to go earth after seeing how truly worthless the fire tree was.

Gynrei|2014-01-15 19:29:08

The level cap is 140, not 115. Your right, casting Earth spells for dmg as a tank is pointless. You're there to fill a role, tank, not DPS.

You probably didn't notice that i actually calculated the available options with level 140 in mind. I should have made it more clear.

Yes, fire sacriers can fill both roles but they are awful at tanking and mediocre at damage. Map manipulating to give more damage to your team is very situational, especially since most classes are ranged and most monsters are melee or have a very short range at best.

I can understand how an earth sacrier can do that, but i don't see how a fire sacrier could possibly manage this. I can just lock a boss and 2-3 other monsters around me with my sacrier without dying for many, many turns. I can move an ally from a bad spot and take his place instead, which means nothing to my resilient earth sacrier. I can sacrifice the entire team and keep people alive, thus having them continue to deal damage, which could be attributed to me.

A fire sacrier can't do those things though. He would die way too fast and probably wouldn't even be able to lock the enemy. I explained above that you can't have both damage and survivability passive abilities, which are essential for either role.
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CloudyMind|2014-01-15 19:33:15
I also would like to put out there that i actually enjoy this discussion. I am not trying to be hostile or anything just because i defend my points. I do agree that fire sacriers have an arsenal to their disposal that air iops, or any iops for that matter, do not have. That arsenal is, however, so disfunctional that i think it renders it a consolidation gimmick at best. That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, especially since i was a fire sacrier originally but was forced to go earth after seeing how truly worthless the fire tree was.

What role can an Iop fill that makes it almost a required class for a dungeon or UB?

What role can a Sac fill that makes it almost a required class for a dungeon or UB?

Iops can stun. That is their claim to fame.

Regarding specialties. Not everything has to be maxed or taken. You may not be optimal compared to others, but you'll do just fine.
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You need to be maxed on specialities. Even the characteristics are conflicting with each other.

Without alot of hp and tattooed blood, your earth abilities will shield you for 6% of your total hp. That's like a 150hp shield, compared to the 320 that my earth sacrier can do, 640 with sanguine armor. If you go for tattooed blood, you have to leave out sacrifice, attraction or transposition. You also can't have sanguine armor. You can't have high resistances unless you level up your air and earth spells too, but you won't have good fire damage as you normally would have.

When the level cap increases to about 180, you can do a bit of both damage and tanking. Until then, you'd be less than half arsed in both damage and tanking if you tried to be decent at both. I honestly hope that i were wrong, but i'm not.

Just try to off-tank with a good fire sacrier at iceberg cracklers and see how that goes for you. It'd be even more hilarious if you sacrificed someone. Then bring in a good earth sacrier and you ll see for yourself how much different it is. You can't even remotely compare the two.

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CloudyMind|2014-01-15 19:54:13
You need to be maxed on specialities. Even the characteristics are conflicting with each other.

Just try to off-tank with a good fire sacrier at iceberg cracklers and see how that goes for you. It'd be even more hilarious if you sacrificed someone. Then bring in a good earth sacrier and you ll see for yourself how much different it is. You can't even remotely compare the two.

It seems that our experiences greatly differ. The parties you have must be a lot weaker. If your parties healer has trouble keeping a Fire Sac alive at cracklers it means the content is difficult for your team. It's the same situation as a stronger team fighting an UB.

Both teams need to minimize the damage they suffer. They do this by using a tank. In these situation the tank inflicts nearly zero damage.

This means you're filling a role for your team by tanking at the highest level you can. TO do this, you have to sacrifice. Because as you said, it would be OP too tank like an Earth Sac while dealing 'good dmg'.

As your team becomes stronger, you can tank with that Fire Sac. Not all encounters are that tough you need an Earth Sac.
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Gynrei|2014-01-15 20:32:02

As your team becomes stronger, you can tank with that Fire Sac.

As your team becomes stronger, don't the monsters become stronger too? I mean, surely you'd rather be doing level appropriate content instead of doing the same content, even when you outlevel it.

Gynrei|2014-01-15 20:32:02
It seems that our experiences greatly differ. The parties you have must be a lot weaker. If your parties healer has trouble keeping a Fire Sac alive at cracklers it means the content is difficult for your team. It's the same situation as a stronger team fighting an UB.

I'd be surprised if a level appropriate eni could keep any non-tank class alive against a handful of cracklers there. I've already explained that a fire sacrier is hardly any different than any other dd class in terms of survivability. The groups that you've been with must have been higher level than the designed level for cracklers. I'm talking about a group within the level range of 110-120, normally with gear equal or lesser of quality of the hagen daz set, which is the boss of said crackler family.

If you want to take an already half cooked dd class and hinder it's damage even more just to have some barely significant tanking ability that will only hold up against easy monsters, then go ahead. Not everyone plays to be good at this game. Well, at least half cooked by the air iop standards, who is apparently perfectly balanced and fair.
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Map manipulation is insanely important and allows you to fight things at a much higher lvl than you actually are. If you have a decently geared team and find a niche you work with inside this team, lvl 110-120s can even be beating lvl 130+ wabbits with full hp at the end of the battle for each character. I personally kill mobs of 3-4 wabbits with a team of 124 xelor, 124 iop, 129 eni, and 106 sadi. The xelor and iop are both in lvl 100 gear - vamp set. If I had a character that "only" positioned these characters and the dolls to the right places and took 1-2 hits it would be 100 times easier. Fire sacs can fit that roleas well as provide pretty good damage on top of that

Note tanking doesn't necessarily mean taking every hit - but rather take every hit that actually matters. A fire sac can focus the damage on itself in those times, so eni has only one person to heal. Likewise, if you team up with an earth sadi, earth gob osa, foggernaut- you'll do great damage as well be a tanking machine for others and yourself.

I just view sacs as more important than just damage. Fire Sacs save lives...

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WhiteClover|2014-01-16 01:39:17
I just view sacs as more important than just damage. Fire Sacs save lives...

You should see my earth sacrier in action. :] I tanked the boss and two mechazerkers at "the frozen tower" dungeon with ease last week. That's a level 130 dungeon and my sacrier is 113. I didn't even need to get healed once, so our eni was able to focus on keeping the rest of the team alive.

I honestly wish i could bring myself to play fire/air sac, but i just can't. Not after seeing how amazing earth sacriers can be. The fact that there is another melee class out there that can deal alot more damage than i could, further discourages me. I simply don't see the point.
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CloudyMind|2014-01-16 03:53:26
I simply don't see the point.

This^^

Fire Sacs don't need to be close to or better damage dealers than an Iop. Sac's have tools at their disposal that make them valuable members of a party. I'm sorry you think they're worthless. Hopefully no one you know plays one.

I have nothing else to say on this matter.
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Neither do i honestly. I have covered everything.

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