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Air iop OP?

By CloudyMind - MEMBER - January 05, 2014, 03:36:30

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that air iops can do way too much damage? You could argue that iops have no range, little utility and poor survivability, but just take a look at fire sacriers. They also have no range, they can't get free backstabs by jumping around the map and their extra survivability gets cancelled out since their own attacks hurt them. They can't even really take advantage of their big health pool, because they need to be at low hp in order to deal decent damage. Sacrier feels like an underpowered version of iop.

It also doesn't help how all i see at 5th bond now is air iops killing people in two turns. :

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Score : 650

so one air iop killed you and u make one thread just to say it ?

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Not to be a jerk, but you're comparing against a class that is, essentially, supposed to be the strongest melee class in the game since it has literally no range, no AoE, and next-to-no map manipulation (even opposed to earth and fire Iop that do have some range, AoE, and offensive utility like no LoS).

Fire Sacrier have increased health pools in groups, great map manipulation (assuming Attraction and Transposition are leveled), the ability to get AoE (Burning Blood), more potential damage % (180% at max versus 140% not including Show Off which is irrelevant to Air Iop), and an extra turn after death (Clinging to Life). Moreover, this is speculation based off of 1v1 PvP, which is a very poor indicator of a class' capabilities.

I respectfully disagree.

• Mango

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ALastLegen|2014-01-06 15:16:45
so one air iop killed you and u make one thread just to say it ?

I'm earth, full tank. I don't pvp. :p

Brokonaut|2014-01-06 16:50:53
Moreover, this is speculation based off of 1v1 PvP, which is a very poor indicator of a class' capabilities.

First off, i already talked about everything you mentioned here. Secondly, why do you think that my "speculation" is based off 1v1 pvp? Is it just because i included one line talking about how air iops 2 turn everyone in 1v1, after making my points?

Sacriers only have one real choice when it comes to damage, and that's fire and then fire/air at late game. A sacrier can only have 80% extra damage when he's at 40% hp, 120% when at 20%, and 180% when he's about to die at the end of his turn. Here's a candy after your painful visit to the dentist. Yey~

An air iop can have 140%, 40% right off the bat. He can get to 140% very fast, without having to risk anything. He can also always backstab, which adds alot more to his damage. An air/fire iop has a much better aoe, much better single target damage pet turn, no risks, good mobility that allows him to escape any situation and be where he needs to be.

The sacrier's increased hp is there to serve to abrorb the self damage and make sure you don't get killed in the next hit when you get your hp low for extra damage. Iop also has 20% increased hp and 40 block, which serve to defend against monsters, not against himself and his passive abilities.

The only thing that keeps sacriers afloat is transpo and attraction.
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Because group PvP and PvE is typically dominated by classes that have some range, some AoE, and some utility, all of which an Air Iop has a lack of. This thread is about Air Iop but does it not kind of change the focus once we start talking about hybrid spec? The point of hybrid is to make up for an element's weakness so of course once you throw in fire or earth into the mix, air is a lot more desirable.

You also shouldn't just use Fire Sacrier as a determinant factor to decide whether or not Air Iop are OP. It's comparing apples to oranges. The two are different enough that it's kind of moot to use them to gauge one another. Even if they're both melee classes, they both have things that make them unique to one another to merit them brought to one occasion or another. Sacrier more so than Iop.

You're looking at pure damage numbers where in most scenarios, you can't get away with just pure damage in late game settings unless it's 1v1 PvP, hence why I assumed 1v1 PvP after your original post's last sentence. A class needs more substance to stay competitive in other areas of the game.

• Mango

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If a sac fire sacnCrits on 2 spells at lvl 100 - their base damage will be around 360 damage.
So base damage for Fire sac is 250-360 base depending on crits.

if an air iop crits on ever jab, gutting gust, and WP spell.
So base damage for air iop is 160 - 350 depending on crits and MP available.

It is much more likely that a fire sac will crit 2 then an air iop to crit 8 times. You can only use jump 6 times in a game assuming you don't use the WP spell to hit. Though jumping for backstab is sometimes nice, it does take away a jab (32 - 48 base damage hit)

A fire sac can deal more damage, has an AoE spell, a self-revival passive, versatility, and can hit the enemy every turn.

An iop has 6 chances for backstab (losing out on AP in doing so), deals less base damage than sac, with little to no versatility.

So don't really see the problem. Different roles for different characters. A sacs versatility easily makes up for any lacking damage %. Making them in many ways stronger than ions.

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You couldn't have been more partial there... You clearly assumed that the Iop has 10 AP 0 MP and 0 WP (5x32=160) while Fire Sac uses 9 AP, 1 WP, 2 MP and has lower HP than the opponent (35+147+51=233). It's a colossal inaccuracy. Let's be clear, Air Iop's base damage with 10 AP 2 MP and 1 WP with spells at lvl 100 is 231. A Fire Sac with the same AP, MP and WP usage does 181 to 233 and damages himself. Let's move to the bad case scenario - no WP and MP. Sac does 153, Iop does 160. Also, I assure you that God Ecaflip doesn't favorize Fire Sacriers, so obviously Critical Hits affect their damage exactly the same way, so you don't need to mention it. In my opinion Air Iop isn't overpowered, it's a straight-forward melee damage dealer, what would you expect? Many classes reach 200-ish base, it's not any outstanding. Fire Sac isn't a pure DD, it still has Sacrier skills and it's entirely up to you if you use them or not but they're a huge part of their potential which compensates damage abilities.

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Yep, iops are the strongest class in game
because yeah! you lost against a iop in 1v1 pvp

this seems a very accurate reason to say that they are OP

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Air iops aren't OP. They're the most pointless iop imo. No range, no aoe, no stun. I would only use air as a hybrid with another element.
If you compare them to fire sacri then they might look good, cause fire sacri is also pretty pointless. Sacri class needs some revamps, it's already been established again and again that the fire sacri isn't powerful enough. I see soo many fire sacris it's ridiculous, I think people just like the class and don't understand that they're picking a class that's made for tanking and placement, not damage. Go make a real DD or wait for a revamp.

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I will assume that you have seen only 140~ air iops in endgame gear. Yes, 600 damage per 2ap is kinda nice, but if you know how to play you can win them. And you know, damage is not the most important thing in pvp...

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Noobility|2014-01-09 19:16:28
Air iops aren't OP. They're the most pointless iop imo. No range, no aoe, no stun. I would only use air as a hybrid with another element.
If you compare them to fire sacri then they might look good, cause fire sacri is also pretty pointless. Sacri class needs some revamps, it's already been established again and again that the fire sacri isn't powerful enough. I see soo many fire sacris it's ridiculous, I think people just like the class and don't understand that they're picking a class that's made for tanking and placement, not damage. Go make a real DD or wait for a revamp.
Two things:
All iops can stun
Fire sac is overpowered as fuck in terms of damage so I don't know what you're talking about.
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lolmaolol|2014-01-12 04:45:51
Noobility|2014-01-09 19:16:28
Air iops aren't OP. They're the most pointless iop imo. No range, no aoe, no stun. I would only use air as a hybrid with another element.
If you compare them to fire sacri then they might look good, cause fire sacri is also pretty pointless. Sacri class needs some revamps, it's already been established again and again that the fire sacri isn't powerful enough. I see soo many fire sacris it's ridiculous, I think people just like the class and don't understand that they're picking a class that's made for tanking and placement, not damage. Go make a real DD or wait for a revamp.
Two things:
All iops can stun
Fire sac is overpowered as fuck in terms of damage so I don't know what you're talking about.
Two teas to this dude, i agree.
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I disagree, fire sac needs a buff. You lose too much HP in recoil damage, no range, bad aoe. Any range DPT is soo much better it's ridiculous. Fire sac is only decent in PvP and mildly useful in lenald dg.

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Noobility|2014-01-12 18:23:28
I disagree, fire sac needs a buff. You lose too much HP in recoil damage, no range, bad aoe. Any range DPT is soo much better it's ridiculous. Fire sac is only decent in PvP and mildly useful in lenald dg.
It's far above "decent" in pvp. It can teleport to you so kiting it is hard. It can kill itself then have a second turn with cling for two turns of damage. Recoil is irrelevant versus the amount of damage it can put out. This is spoken from someone who has actually fought end game fire sacs as an end game iop. Get experience in end game pvp before making judgements.
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The real issue that i have with iops in comparison to sacrier, is that they can deal as much or more damage than a sacrier, without having to take any risks whatsoever.

  • A fire sacrier will only get to 80% damage when at 40% hp. If you get any more than that, it would be 120% bonus damage at 20% hp and 180% bonus damage at 1% hp, at which point you die next turn. An air iop on the other hand has 40% bonus damage from a passive ability and another 100% that can be obtained very fast and without having to risk dying. While a fire sacrier sits on 80% on less than half hp, an air iop can comfortably sit on 140% at full hp.

  • An air iop can easily escape without being locked, simply by jumping away, which isn't even really going to effect his damage output for that turn. A fire sacrier could potentially do the same, but only if there is an ally that he can use sacrier first on, an enemy that is in line of sight of transposition that won't effect the flow of the fight if transported, or perhaps an ally that can tank the damage when transported amongst enemies. In any case, the sacrier's escape is unreliable, costs ap and can mess things up for everyone else. An iop doesn't have to worry about any of that. He'll even gain 20% damage just from that.

  • As far as base damage and cost goes, air iop and fire sacrier are pretty much equal. A fire sacrier can either do 3 blood rush attacks for 153 base damage at level 100 or go for Bloodthirsty Fury, Punishment and Blood Rush for 181 base damage, 230 if the target's hp is higher than the sacrier's. An air iop will do 5 Jabs and two Gutting Gusts for 200 base damage, 231 if he uses a wakfu point for an Uppercut. Also, after 6 turns, the sacrier can't use punishment anymore, so he can only deal 153 base damage, while the iop can deal 200 base damage. However, that's just the base damage. Iops have more actual bonus damage than sacriers.

  • As far as survivability goes, a fire sacriers deals 21 damage to himself every turn, 34 with punishment. That's 136 damage with 400% bonus damage and 100% resistance, 272 in two turns, 408 in three turns, 544 in four turns, 680 in five turns, 816 damage in six turns. A sacrier with 1200hp will get an extra 720 from Blood Pact in a full group. In just 6 turns, a sacrier's self damage exceeds that bonus hp. Not only that, but when an ally dies, a sacrier loses 12% of his max hp, effectively chaining all sacriers to their allies and making them a liability when things go bad. What? You thought that fire sacriers have more hp than everyone else? That's just an illusion. On the other hand, an iop with the same hp gets 240 bonus hp from his own passive ability, which he doesn't have to sacrifice. He can also spend just 2ap to get 40% block, which can potentially reduce 30% of all incoming damage, at the cost of just 35 base damage.

Like some other people have said, a sacrier can attract and use transposition. Those two spells are the only things that keep sacrierrs afloat. The only thing that makes sacriers what they are and not a bad version of iops. So then, if an iop ca do everything else better than a sacrier, why would i possibly even consider playing a fire iop at all? This is why earth sacrier is the only real choice that any sacrier can make. Until that changes, i will consider either air iops being OP or fire sacriers being UP. Take your pick.

Matt5150|2014-01-09 16:16:11
Yep, iops are the strongest class in game
because yeah! you lost against a iop in 1v1 pvp

this seems a very accurate reason to say that they are OP

I'm earth :p
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CloudyMind|2014-01-13 18:14:59
So then, if an iop ca do everything else better than a sacrier, why would i possibly even consider playing a fire iop at all?

Because an Iop can't do everything better than a Sacrier. I hope that answers your question.
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Gynrei|2014-01-13 21:49:57
CloudyMind|2014-01-13 18:14:59
So then, if an iop ca do everything else better than a sacrier, why would i possibly even consider playing a fire iop at all?

Because an Iop can't do everything better than a Sacrier. I hope that answers your question.
Sacrier is good at tanking and placement. If you're looking for damage you're probably best off with the iop or a number of other classes.
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Gynrei|2014-01-13 21:49:57
CloudyMind|2014-01-13 18:14:59
So then, if an iop ca do everything else better than a sacrier, why would i possibly even consider playing a fire iop at all?

Because an Iop can't do everything better than a Sacrier. I hope that answers your question.

I wrote like 4 paragraphs explaining why an iop is better than a fire sacrier at everything. You wrote one line simply stating the opposite, with no explanation or arguements attached to it whatsoever. Sorry, but that's insufficient to answer my question. Try again.

Noobility|2014-01-13 22:09:05
Sacrier is good at tanking and placement. If you're looking for damage you're probably best off with the iop or a number of other classes.

I completely agree with you. This is why i strongly believe that fire sacriers are pointless and useless. I have already explained that your increased hp don't give you any extra protection in a fight because you end up damaging yourself way too much, so in truth, you are just like any other class, except you have the grand illusion that you can survive more. If you try to manipulate the map and tank as a fire sacrier, you will fail and die for sure.

This is exactly why fire sacrier has no role or purpose in the game and also why earth sacrier is the only real choice that you are presented with.

This is why fire sacriers are underpowered... or it could be that making them tanky as well as good dd would be too OP, in which case iops have to be balanced out as per these standards placed on fire sacriers.
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somehow I can only see sac as a locker-tank with swaps, pushes and attracts and no dd, for other builds there are better class alternatives

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Damage % difference: Your complaint, though valid, ignores the fact that a sac can hit an enemy nearly 100% of the time as well as position people to places to either deal more damage or to save people. Any damage the would be impossible before the positioning is attributed to the sac. Overall a fire sac can add more damage to enemy through casual map manipulation + hitting. Especially considering many mobs have insane res to certain elements. The fact that a sac can get people to where they need to go as well as deal massive damage helps a lot.

Positioning: True an iop can escape easier than fire sac, however I've never seen a sac have difficulties escaping an enemy if necessary. An iop can only use the escape 6 times. Or, in the case of an air iop, less due to them using WP on a certain other air combo spell...

Base damage: You're comparing the typical 9 ap fire sac to a 10 ap air iop which seems off. Of course 10 ap air iop will have more base damage - it can utilize more ap/mp efficiently. Once ap gear becomes more abundant - fire sacs will be able to get to 11 ap with ease allowing a drastic increase in damage and potential. At the same time, air iops need to sacrifice to get to 12 ap to decrease this barrier.

Survivability: How in the world does a fire sac only have 100% resistance in its main element? Both my xelor and iop (duel elements) have circa 200% res in their elements and they're in easily obtainable lvl 100 equipment. The bonus hp is more of a buffer than actual hp buff. I do agree they should rework this aspect of fire sac though - perhaps by decreasing damage.

Overall I find fire sacs to be more useful than air iops. Where all an iop has going for itself is hitting hard, a sac can hit hard, can map manipulate, can tank when necessary - overall many uses in a battle field. I can't even count the number of times that a sac used its turn, got killed, insta raised to hit incredibly again, followed by eni raising it to full hp the following turn. Basically 3 turns before an enemy can start theirs again. Or when eni has 1 hp left and was saccd and/or removed out of line of fire easily - while still being able to deal great damage that turn. The raw damage may not be equal to that of an iop, but I'd rather have a fire sac than an iop in many late game scenarios. (Especially if its a hybrid fire/air or fire/earth).

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