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All-in crit still capped at 50%?

By CrimsonQueso March 28, 2012, 19:47:06

Is All-in's crit still capped on only a 50% chance of proccing the double hit? It seems like that and it makes the crit pretty worthless.

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Yes, All-in is still capped at 50%

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Score : 249

worst critical ever

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Score : 51
CrimsonQueso|2012-03-28 19:47:06
Is All-in's crit still capped on only a 50% chance of proccing the double hit? It seems like that and it makes the crit pretty worthless.
Agreed, especially when it's wasted even with the standard 6 AP; i.e. 60% > 50%.

In the beta, the all-in chance per AP was 10% normally, 20% on crit, with no cap. The cap was put in, and then the odds were nerfed to 5% and 10%. The cap has just remained as a legacy fix from when ecas had far too high of odds for the double to happen. It is no longer needed and in fact hurts the Eca class.

I understand the reason for the 50% cap on normal attacks - you dont want EVERY hit to be a double. However crits are supposed to be special and noteworthy when they happen, and the current state of crits being mostly meaningless is quite pathetic. If crits double the double hit chance, I think doubling the cap is also appropriate.

All-in is not the cross-map killer that Cras have, it has a minimum range, and it has no AoE. I wouldn't consider all-in overpowered if it doubled on EVERY crit, so just increasing the cap (i.e. not a certain double) should be fine. If people are still squeamish you could have the crit cap increase to 80% or something, but the current 50% is simply wrong.

Just my opinion.

-FF
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You need to look at it from an overall damage standpoint. it's a 2-4 range ability, so fairly decent range. Assuming you have 10AP to cap the chance for double damage, that's

130 + (130 * .5) = 195 Damage (level 100 All-In, no gear bonuses)

Can't really use Cras as a comparison because they are most def the definition of overpowered, and there was even a post stating that they are currently being looked at, so that could all change.

Also with the amount of Critical an Ecaflip can gain easily, via Winning Streak it would be tough to balance a Critable All-In effect. The non-crit would need a nerf to make room for the crit potential.

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Tekknorabble|2012-04-02 10:47:10
You need to look at it from an overall damage standpoint. it's a 2-4 range ability, so fairly decent range. Assuming you have 10AP to cap the chance for double damage, that's

130 + (130 * .5) = 195 Damage (level 100 All-In, no gear bonuses)

Can't really use Cras as a comparison because they are most def the definition of overpowered, and there was even a post stating that they are currently being looked at, so that could all change.

Also with the amount of Critical an Ecaflip can gain easily, via Winning Streak it would be tough to balance a Critable All-In effect. The non-crit would need a nerf to make room for the crit potential.

I dont know how viable it is to get 10 AP; I do know 2 points of AP costs a total of 400 stat points, which is equal to giving up 100% damage/resist; it would cripple you damagewise to obtain that 2nd point (72.5%). 9 points is more viable; 1 AP from stats (loses 37.5% damage to lost strength) + goultard + some AP set. But the 10th AP is harder to get.

Also bear in mind that 2-4 range means ecas may need to sacrifice 2 AP against melee mobs/opponents to feral leap and get beyond minimum range when locked.

I also think that when you consider the range of moves other classes have that they can accomplish with the same AP/MP pool, 130-260 damage before gear bonuses for an entire turn may very well be low - doubly so since it does not get multiplied via AoE. Compare to the list of damages racked up by iops using MP, sacriers with motion sickness, combined Osa summons, etc. over the course of a turn - just for examples I've seen in person. I'm sure others can provide better math to compare with, but I would NOT be surprised to see other classes *dependably* doing 195+ or even 260+ pre-gear damage at level 100 with 10 AP and 3+ MP to work with.

As for crits being tough to balance... I'm not so sure I agree with you there.

Tarot Ecas DO gain an appreciable amount crit when they draw the Wheel of Fortune card. Letting All-In benefit from an inconsistent tarot draw is kindof in the spirit of the chance/tarot to begin with, and is not something to take effect on every turn - sometimes not at all during a fight. So I dont think tarot crit chance is worth considering as much.

Winning streak for earth ecas comes primarily from Ecaflip Die; i.e. they're not using fire skills to increase it, and thusly they wont have the more consistent WS buildup that fire ecas enjoy and depend upon. They cant just spam 'roll again' until they have a positive WS the way Fire ecaflips do, because earth ecas must also manage Tarot cards. If lucky, they may start their turn with +10% WS if they max Ecaflip Die - but the die is 50/50 at all levels, so I dont know if I would call that a consistent means to get enough WS for it to make a huge difference.

My thought is that they should remove the %double cap on All-In crits, and then see what happens to the playerbase. I'm sure there would be a burst of Ecas experimenting immediately after the change, but the question is if it would meaningfully change the PvE and PvP landscape longer-term afterward. If it becomes apparent that the change made Earth Ecas OP, then the change could be undone or different adjustments could be made.

-FF
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All-In doesn't need to be changed at all. They need to fix the other abilities in the Earth line so something else is worth using.

Also it's easy to get 3 AP from gear so you'd only need 1 from stats, and that only drops you 37.5%, and once you start getting 300%+ from gear that 37.5% isn't that big of a deal.

Fire Ecas don't gain that much WS from their ablities, if they are D-Six spammers they only have a 16.7% chance to gain 4 WS, and a 16.7% chance to lose 4. That leaves a 66.6% chance to have nothing happen. If they use a 9 AP Loaded Dice/Die Alright, that's a 50% chance to gain or lose with LD and a 16.7% chance to gain 8 via Die Alright.

Also if you are claiming that it's tough to get 10AP, what would be the point of removing the cap on crit? In a lucky scenario where you get a God Ecaflip and a Crit, with 10 AP, pushing you to 13 AP, your chance to double would only be 65% and that's a lot of variables.

And if they tailor the Earth tree to benefit more to Winning Streak then they will need to change the Fire tree to gain more from Tarot cards. Fire is currently the weaker of the two specs.

As I stated before, what needs to be done is that Heads or Tails, Battle, and 3 Card need to be changed to make different builds possible, this could make crits more effective. As it stands Heads or Tails is only useful on God Ecaflips, but it's tough to keep leveled up since I would never use it without the flip. Battle is never useful, at all, it's junk. 3 Card does decent damage, but it costs you a WP which is needed for Roll Agains since Earth needs good Tarot flips.

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I do agree the other earth skills need work - however the original poster in this thread was focused on All-In's crit cap, so that's what I've responded to here. That said, I would enjoy Battle and Heads or Tails being more viable for routine use - it would give better melee-range flexibility and allow earth ecas to target multiple enemies in a single turn without suffering a massive drop in the total damage per turn they deal.

Right now earth ecas have to use all-in to be even remotely competitive damagewise (excluding god ecaflip), and even with doubles the damage is merely on-par with what I see other classes produce. As stated previously I dont think a *certain* double on a crit would be inappropriate, but just removing the cap allows for there to not be a double when critting with less AP (crit = 10% per AP).

Again we could try getting rid of the crit % double cap and see how well it works in practice. Though really a test server of some kind would be better for this.

As for the 10 AP question you raised, my understanding was that getting 3 from gear without sacrificing lots of earth damage was relatively difficult - but then I havent gotten to mess with higher-level equipment yet. Out of curiosity, what earth gear would you give a higher level eca (beyond tree) that would give them the 3 AP you mention without sacrificing earth damage?

-FF

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Ummm off the top of my head, elite riktus set, dragolyre, and goultard or Maka weapons, this gets you 3 AP.

All-In, even without double damage does a great amount of damage.

10 AP = 130 Damage (without a double hit)

Fire Eca

10 AP, D-SIx/Die Alright = (48 + (48 * 1/6)) + 76 = 132 This is factoring in one extra roll from D-Six, also Die Alright has a 1-3 Range in a cross sectional so very situational.

All-In in that scenario has a 50% chance to double so 260 total damage, D-Six has a 16.7% chance to roll again, to match a 260 damage hit the D-Six would have to roll 3 times you're looking at a ~0.5% of that happening

We can't really compare ourselves to other classes, we have a lot of functionality that, if our damage was on par with others it would push us over the edge. We share Precision with Cras, but we are the only two classes that gain that. Double or Quits, this is even a greater boon for All-In because on a double hit if it fails it doesn't heal both hits only one so you at least do some damage a turn but if it does succeed it adds a substantial amount of extra damage. Roll Again, the damage bonus from this stacks at every use, so if you get 2 cards in a row you don't like you gain 64% more damage on top of what you have. Also a lot of our Tarot cards effect all of our party members as well, yes some are negative, but giving everyone a 80% damage boost, or lifetap is pretty nice.

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