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Ecaflip Tarot

By rawrm3 - MEMBER - March 15, 2012, 00:32:42

I love the Eca class and I love my current build, but I am just curious about one thing with tarot cards because it almost ruins the whole class IMO. How does it help to balance the class to have the bad god then good combo bringing you to 1hp? I LOVE the chance aspect of the class so dont get me wrong, but in the course of a day it will tick on me 5-6 times and is almost always a guarantee that it will kill me within the next round or 2. I like thinking on my feet and having to change what Im doing to survive and be good at my class but to me it seems that combo dropping you to 1 hp is just to annoy you. Could it be less of a drop like 50-75% instead of 99 and still be balanced? Can anyone clarify this for me?

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Score : 14

That is a fairly easy question to answer. It balances with the same card combo but in reverse order. And before anyone says that the good card combination gives you only 50% or so of your health keep in mind that if you draw the 1hp combo when you have 20 hp left of your usual 200 you are only loosing 10% of your health.

In the end the 1hp card combo takes away anywhere from 99% to 1% of your health while the good combo adds about 50% so they balance out just fine. Welcome to high stakes gambling! It is not for everyone.

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Score : 760

You are using deceptive words to try to detract from the weight of the combo. Ougi -> Eca does not take between 1 and 99% of your hp depending on circumstances, it ALWAYS takes ALL of your hp except 1. Don't try to sleaze past that fact by using current hp. Fact remains that eca ougi is something you hope you'll never have to use and ougi eca is something that is all but guaranteed to kill you. A res with maximum gain of 50% that you have to die to use does not balance out a potential 99% health drain, It's that simple.

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Just be glad this isn't CB. In CB it DID kill you, no questions asked. 1 hp still gives you a -slim- chance of surviving.

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Lemons I stand by my math and I am sorry if math makes you think I'm sleazy. I understand what you are saying. The ougi eca combo always means certain death while the eca ougi combo may or may not come into play. That being said math is still math sleazy slimy or otherwise.

As a side topic, assuming that you can not completely remove the card combo from our draw, how would you change it? Remove 50% of max HP? Remove 50% of current HP?

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Score : 235

Honestly I can see 75-80% taken off instead of 99, at least that way you would have a little bit of a chance when it hits. Its just the fact that this class just like any other is counted on in a group setting and to be able to completely nuke yourself without help from any mobs is kinda silly and makes the class less reliable in an end game setting. I love my eca, Id be very sad if I had to shelf this toon and opt for a different one once I max it out because nobody wants an unreliable class in their group for an intense fight.

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I think it's also worth noting that when you've levelled Ecaflip's Tarot (as nearly every earth eca does), the Ougi->Eca combination is more likely to occur than the Eca->Ougi combination that is meant to balance it.

i.e. the 30% chance for 'bad cards' means that it is less likely for ouginak to follow any given card draw, while the 50% chance for 'good cards' means that it is more likely for ecaflip to follow any given card draw.

Given that promoting the chances for the 'ultimate bad' combination is a known result of focusing on the tarot, I do think that mitigating the 1HP case to something more bearable/survivable is probably worth considering. GaranStoneFace's point that 'ecaflips paw' may not even come into play in a given battle while the 1 HP almost always means immediate death is also worth bearing in mind.

The combo should still be severe, that's a given. Just throwing an idea out there: change the combo to
some % HP loss (50% or some randomized value) + instantly ends your turn.

Thoughts?

-FF

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Score : 1117

I feel a simple loss of a turn would suffice for Ougi + Eca combo. Of course this would mean that ecaflip paw would need to be removed and replaced with something like +3 ap and 100% dmg, +6 ap, Gaining a second turn, or perhaps a heal of 20%-50% max hp for the eca + ougi combo.

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danceparty|2012-03-19 03:44:02
I feel a simple loss of a turn would suffice for Ougi + Eca combo. Of course this would mean that ecaflip paw would need to be removed and replaced with something like +3 ap and 100% dmg, +6 ap, Gaining a second turn, or perhaps a heal of 20%-50% max hp for the eca + ougi combo.

Ecaflip's paw is a unique effect, and rarer than the alternative combination... I think it can/should remain as it is to give Tarot ecas something to wish for from the Tarot. It already does not occur very often, while the 1HP Ougi + Eca combo occurs far more frequently.

Per my post above, I think that Loss of a turn + some HP loss (50%?) would be a good balance - the likelihood of death without the virtual certainty as it is now. Bear in mind that Ecaflip's paw doesnt guarantee survival - you can still die very easily after having been revived.

Plus from a code perspective I think it would be hard to make the card's effect give someone another turn - it would either be resetting things back or effectively 'skipping' everyone else.

-FF
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Score : 4824
FoolishFate|2012-03-21 01:18:33
danceparty|2012-03-19 03:44:02

Ecaflip's paw is a unique effect, and rarer than the alternative combination...
Exact same odds :/
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SupersunZeratul|2012-03-21 01:27:58
FoolishFate|2012-03-21 01:18:33
danceparty|2012-03-19 03:44:02

Ecaflip's paw is a unique effect, and rarer than the alternative combination...
Exact same odds :/

I look at it this way:
At tarot level 20, you have 50% chance of a positive card, 30% chance of a negative card, and 20% chance of a neutral card.

With 4 positive cards and 4 negative cards, if you get either 'positive' or 'negative' you have an equal chance to get that side's god card - so that cancels out.

The Ougi-Eca combo takes place when Ouginak is drawn first; therefore the first card drawn is a given. After that point you have 50% * 25% = 12.5% chance of drawing God Ecaflip and getting 1 HP.

The Eca-Ougi (Ecaflip's Paw) combo takes place when God Ecaflip is drawn first; again, that's a given. Afterward you have 30% * 25% = 7.5% chance of drawing Ouginak and getting Ecaflip's paw.

If you take into account the odds of drawing the FIRST card it can indeed even out; i.e. it's less likely to get ouginak in the first place. However I find that in practice whenever you DO get ouginak, you're at higher risk of getting the follow-on 1 HP case than you are to get Ecaflip's Paw once you've drawn God Ecaflip.

-FF
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Score : 760

^ You wouldn't believe the lengths I've had to go to explain that to people.

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I think the chance is kinda bull to be honest. Think of it this way, if you get reduced to 1 hp, you're more than likely dead on your feet, guaranteed loss. Now on the other hand if you get the good cards, none of them equate to guaranteed victory. Sure they're nice, help you do plenty of damage, but nothing like putting your enemies down to 1 hp.

But even if you did instant win a fight, its not as meaningful as losing. When you win, whoo hoo you get to go on to the next fight and kill more stuff, one more stepping stone. When you lose its a larger set back you're sent back to town, have to regen hp, and its annoying and demoralizing. No one likes an enemy you cant really fight.

On top of that theres plenty of other penalties you can run into even with out being dropped to 1 hp from a random chance of unluck, I mean hell sometimes when I'm not really paying attention I feel like I'm healing the mobs more than I'm damaging them. Maybe I'm just a bad ecaflip but thats my opinion on this nonsense.

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It's the price of the class, and yes it's very annoying. With this nerf to HP regen it's even worse. I typically can survive fights where I flip it with skillful kiting, but then I have to either sit or munch down bread, I can make the bread myself, but that takes a lot of time. Since the free respec I hadn't touched my Earth Eca just because of this fact, but upon logging in to him I just decided to not put points into Tarot, All-In is still just as powerful without it, the occasional God Flip was fun for the extra AP, but losing MPs or getting rooted, or even taking random damage is not missed. I know our best single target damage is Heads or Tails with a God Flip, but my HoT is barely leveled up because I only ever used it on God Flips it just isn't smart to use it outside of those the damage is just to terrible.

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