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I Found the Problem with Eca's

By leviayura February 19, 2012, 08:03:53

Eca Precision is OP. Not only is it the only weapon on the Eca's arsenal that doesn't have any real drawbacks, its obscene damage synergizes well with unnaturally high damage output of the Eca and complements the likes of Double or Nothing, Roll Again, and Feline Leap.

It doesn't cost AP, WP, MP, HP, Mechanics, Angrr, or even time. It costs practically nothing! All it requires is you make an attack and it will quintuple your damage output.

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Eca is a class that can't be balanced without completely changing its skills.
If you nerf Eca, it will be useless.

It's either underpowered or overpowered, level 20 eca's can dunk on a level 40 easily with pure luck.
It's a class that can't be countered, and is anti-fun to play against. They should just delete it, and act like the class never existed to begin with.

I went against an eca that was so lucky, he was around level 10, and did over 180 dmg? I lost, it was complete bs.

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Not sure if srs.

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leviayura|2012-02-19 08:03:53
Eca Precision is OP. Not only is it the only weapon on the Eca's arsenal that doesn't have any real drawbacks, its obscene damage synergizes well with unnaturally high damage output of the Eca and complements the likes of Double or Nothing, Roll Again, and Feline Leap.

It doesn't cost AP, WP, MP, HP, Mechanics, Angrr, or even time. It costs practically nothing! All it requires is you make an attack and it will quintuple your damage output.

By that train of thought, you should also note that they are completely and utterly immortal if they pick up the Tarot ability.

You folks need to stop freaking out about Precision. It's a rarity to get that coveted 500% extra damage. Most of the time you'll be doing normal damage or the paltry 30%.

Wanna talk about OP?

Fight an Air Iop that's locked you and hits you for about 60-ish damage. Six times or more in a row. 
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CapnKorin|2012-02-19 08:18:18
By that train of thought, you should also note that they are completely and utterly immortal if they pick up the Tarot ability.

You folks need to stop freaking out about Precision. It's a rarity to get that coveted 500% extra damage. Most of the time you'll be doing normal damage or the paltry 30%.

Wanna talk about OP?

Fight an Air Iop that's locked you and hits you for about 60-ish damage. Six times or more in a row.
First off, if your an Eca getting lock by a Iop, you shouldn't be playing the game. Second, Air Iop OP? What is this, 2011? Thirdly, Tarot has drawbacks, you can heal the enemy, you lose 2 MP, you can kill yourself. Precision has no drawback and has great proc! (40% is nothing to slouch about, even with the best crit gear, you won't see over 30%. This is crit+crit=grotesque amount of damage!)
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leviayura|2012-02-19 08:31:23
CapnKorin|2012-02-19 08:18:18
First off, if your an Eca getting lock by a Iop, you shouldn't be playing the game. Second, Air Iop OP? What is this, 2011? Thirdly, Tarot has drawbacks, you can heal the enemy, you lose 2 MP, you can kill yourself. Precision has no drawback and has great proc! (40% is nothing to slouch about, even with the best crit gear, you won't see over 30%. This is crit+crit=grotesque amount of damage!)

I meant ANY class getting locked down by an Air Iop.

And yes, I'd be inclined to think someone with the capacity to nail you for 350+ damage a turn is a little on the hefty side. But I could be wrong.

And no, you can't kill yourself with Tarot anymore, you merely reduce your own HP to 1.
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CapnKorin|2012-02-19 08:35:15
I meant ANY class getting locked down by an Air Iop.

And yes, I'd be inclined to think someone with the capacity to nail you for 350+ damage a turn is a little on the hefty side. But I could be wrong.

And no, you can't kill yourself with Tarot anymore, you merely reduce your own HP to 1.
My Sram has no problems not getting locked by Iops. lol you're weird.

You probably are wrong cuz that sounds about right. My friends Eca can hit for that with just Precision alone.

J/k, he probably needs help from Roll Again and DoQ to do 500+. =p

You know, in most games if you have 1 HP and you get hit by another attack, you're probably gonna die. I'm preeeeetty sure the same thing applies to this game.
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You know what else is 40%?

Compulsion

40% elemental damage 100% of the time.

So, no, calling 30% elemental damage 40% of the time broken is a bit silly.

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leviayura|2012-02-19 08:47:36
CapnKorin|2012-02-19 08:35:15
I meant ANY class getting locked down by an Air Iop.

And yes, I'd be inclined to think someone with the capacity to nail you for 350+ damage a turn is a little on the hefty side. But I could be wrong.

And no, you can't kill yourself with Tarot anymore, you merely reduce your own HP to 1.
My Sram has no problems not getting locked by Iops. lol you're weird.

You probably are wrong cuz that sounds about right. My friends Eca can hit for that with just Precision alone.

J/k, he probably needs help from Roll Again and DoQ to do 500+. =p

You know, in most games if you have 1 HP and you get hit by another attack, you're probably gonna die. I'm preeeeetty sure the same thing applies to this game.

And we all know Iops and Srams are both the picture of balance tongue

Does anyone Even know the likelihood of landing in a particular range of the effective boost? i.e. Is it more likely to land within a lower range than a higher one? It's easy to call an ability OP on what it might do in a rare instance, but it'd be more accurate to actually experience what it will do most of the time and then comment on it.
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I think Precision is pretty balanced myself (as well as the ecaflip class in general, except for maybe Double or Quits). Playing pretty much all day i usually only get the crazy +500% dmg bonus less than a handful of times and sometimes it procs when the dmg bonus was totally overkill (enemy would have died from unboosted dmg).

The fact that ecaflips occasional crazy high dmg capability is balanced out by the fact that they are the only class capable of totally self-destructing by or wasting their turn. Tarot penalty's of crit fail/self dmg per enemy/mp and ap loss/ enemy healing/ enemy dmg buffing, (once gave +100% dmg to aggressive blibli witch proceeded to murder my team-mate). Not to mention straight up instant death (being dropped to 1 hp is pretty much the same in allot of situations, especially when solo).

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leviayura|2012-02-19 08:03:53
I Found the Problem with Eca's
leviayura|2012-02-19 08:47:36
My Sram...

"I am rock. Scissors is balanced and working as intended. Paper is OP and needs a nerf."

Have you even played an Ecaflip or is this just pure theorycrafting?
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I think Signal2Noise hit the nail in the head.

I think I got the 500% bonus damage about 4 or 5 times so far. A little less than once an hour. Not sure what the rate it happens is but it is so low that it is awesome when it happens but no one is every going to be able to count on it happening.

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leviayura|2012-02-19 08:47:36
CapnKorin|2012-02-19 08:35:15
My Sram has no problems not getting locked by Iops. lol you're weird.

You probably are wrong cuz that sounds about right. My friends Eca can hit for that with just Precision alone.

J/k, he probably needs help from Roll Again and DoQ to do 500+. =p

You know, in most games if you have 1 HP and you get hit by another attack, you're probably gonna die. I'm preeeeetty sure the same thing applies to this game.

Beeeecause you're a Sram. They have epic dodge.

Are you willfully blind or just trying to break another class?

Anyway, yes I can agree that having 1 HP left and being hit will more than likely kill you. But when you have max'd out Tarot and you keep spamming the Revival Suit then it's just a reeeeeeally long chain of let's spam our attacks until I kill all your extra guys.

Yes, revival stacks.

And it's friggin' irritating.
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CapnKorin|2012-02-19 18:47:46
leviayura|2012-02-19 08:47:36
CapnKorin|2012-02-19 08:35:15
My Sram has no problems not getting locked by Iops. lol you're weird.

You probably are wrong cuz that sounds about right. My friends Eca can hit for that with just Precision alone.

J/k, he probably needs help from Roll Again and DoQ to do 500+. =p

You know, in most games if you have 1 HP and you get hit by another attack, you're probably gonna die. I'm preeeeetty sure the same thing applies to this game.

Beeeecause you're a Sram. They have epic dodge.

Are you willfully blind or just trying to break another class?

Anyway, yes I can agree that having 1 HP left and being hit will more than likely kill you. But when you have max'd out Tarot and you keep spamming the Revival Suit then it's just a reeeeeeally long chain of let's spam our attacks until I kill all your extra guys.

Yes, revival stacks.

And it's friggin' irritating.
Wow, it stacks? That's ridiculous.
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Eca Precision is balanced so that the average increase in damage is exactly equal to Compulsion's. Complaining about one skill and not the other is silly.

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OP: Are you serious? Seriously, play the game before you start posting on the forums.

It would be nice for Ankama to tell us the percent chance that eca precision will proc each type of bonus. Right now it seems it's mostly the limb one. If you say that it's usually the limb one and rarely the others, the bonus would be at least 12% effective damage increase (40% times a 30% increase). But let's just say it's 20% to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Compulsion gives 40%. Authority gives, well, that gives 100% pretty much. Gold mines give 150%. Feca's spell rebound is pretty much a 1.2 multiplier on any final damage and a 20% flat damage reduction, and has a -40% resist spell. Sadidas, osas, and srams have good utility with summons.

Eca's are by far one of the weaker classes in the game right now (earth and fire I mean, I haven't played water enough to be qualified to speak on them), along with pandawas. Iops, fecas, osas, sadidas, srams, and enus can easily out damage them. Xelors, sacs, and enis have good utility and/or survivability. If you want the numbers, check out my post in general discussion.

If you want to complain about tarot, fine. I think it's a bit random, but that's the nature of the class. I personally think it's a cool and interesting mechanic. At best, it's an overall 30-40% effective damage increase with Roll Again, if that. But don't say that Eca's are OP, because anyone with half a brain would see that they aren't, especially if we're throwing iops and fecas into the comparative mix.

P.S. @ Eraniverse, I don't think that's correct. At least from my observation with it proc'ing, it's closer to half that of compulsion or less. If you have some numbers to prove me wrong I'd love to see them though!

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I've actually included pretty much anything anyone would want to know about ecaflip in my guide. Including the damage bonuses and hit types for Ecaflips precision, all of the card effects, and ability descriptions and combinations.

Paws off is the best defense if you happen to need to survive with 1HP left.. but if its a ranged attack you're done for.

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crudd|2012-02-19 20:11:34
OP: Are you serious? Seriously, play the game before you start posting on the forums.

It would be nice for Ankama to tell us the percent chance that eca precision will proc each type of bonus. Right now it seems it's mostly the limb one. If you say that it's usually the limb one and rarely the others, the bonus would be at least 12% effective damage increase (40% times a 30% increase). But let's just say it's 20% to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Compulsion gives 40%. Authority gives, well, that gives 100% pretty much. Gold mines give 150%. Feca's spell rebound is pretty much a 1.2 multiplier on any final damage and a 20% flat damage reduction, and has a -40% resist spell. Sadidas, osas, and srams have good utility with summons.

Eca's are by far one of the weaker classes in the game right now (earth and fire I mean, I haven't played water enough to be qualified to speak on them), along with pandawas. Iops, fecas, osas, sadidas, srams, and enus can easily out damage them. Xelors, sacs, and enis have good utility and/or survivability. If you want the numbers, check out my post in general discussion.

If you want to complain about tarot, fine. I think it's a bit random, but that's the nature of the class. I personally think it's a cool and interesting mechanic. At best, it's an overall 30-40% effective damage increase with Roll Again, if that. But don't say that Eca's are OP, because anyone with half a brain would see that they aren't, especially if we're throwing iops and fecas into the comparative mix.

P.S. @ Eraniverse, I don't think that's correct. At least from my observation with it proc'ing, it's closer to half that of compulsion or less. If you have some numbers to prove me wrong I'd love to see them though!
I think people may be missing the point of Op's post just a bit...

The class is risky, and may often may fail, but will rarely see success...
I can't imagine too many are happy with this, the class can be the cause of a lot of anger.

the class may not be the strongest, may be as good as a lvl 1 one turn, but it can for the next turn be the most ridiculous thing ever
The problem OP has with precision is that it has no draw backs, it can be the result of a lot of frustration for many players. Some may say they get the 500% at the worst times, when it means nothing, others may say they never get it at all. Others may get it during a pvp matchup and be smashing their screens at how ridiculous it was.

It may just be too much for anyone to have the ability to reach, and after doing some research with some builds I can tell you +500% is a bit too much for any class to be able to pull out. Although the class may be underpowered during unlucky and normal turns, giving the 500% to class isn't a good fix though.
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b-baller|2012-02-19 21:36:01
crudd|2012-02-19 20:11:34
OP: Are you serious? Seriously, play the game before you start posting on the forums.

It would be nice for Ankama to tell us the percent chance that eca precision will proc each type of bonus. Right now it seems it's mostly the limb one. If you say that it's usually the limb one and rarely the others, the bonus would be at least 12% effective damage increase (40% times a 30% increase). But let's just say it's 20% to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Compulsion gives 40%. Authority gives, well, that gives 100% pretty much. Gold mines give 150%. Feca's spell rebound is pretty much a 1.2 multiplier on any final damage and a 20% flat damage reduction, and has a -40% resist spell. Sadidas, osas, and srams have good utility with summons.

Eca's are by far one of the weaker classes in the game right now (earth and fire I mean, I haven't played water enough to be qualified to speak on them), along with pandawas. Iops, fecas, osas, sadidas, srams, and enus can easily out damage them. Xelors, sacs, and enis have good utility and/or survivability. If you want the numbers, check out my post in general discussion.

If you want to complain about tarot, fine. I think it's a bit random, but that's the nature of the class. I personally think it's a cool and interesting mechanic. At best, it's an overall 30-40% effective damage increase with Roll Again, if that. But don't say that Eca's are OP, because anyone with half a brain would see that they aren't, especially if we're throwing iops and fecas into the comparative mix.

P.S. @ Eraniverse, I don't think that's correct. At least from my observation with it proc'ing, it's closer to half that of compulsion or less. If you have some numbers to prove me wrong I'd love to see them though!
I think people may be missing the point of Op's post just a bit...

The class is risky, and may often may fail, but will rarely see success...
I can't imagine too many are happy with this, the class can be the cause of a lot of anger.

the class may not be the strongest, may be as good as a lvl 1 one turn, but it can for the next turn be the most ridiculous thing ever
The problem OP has with precision is that it has no draw backs, it can be the result of a lot of frustration for many players. Some may say they get the 500% at the worst times, when it means nothing, others may say they never get it at all. Others may get it during a pvp matchup and be smashing their screens at how ridiculous it was.

It may just be too much for anyone to have the ability to reach, and after doing some research with some builds I can tell you +500% is a bit too much for any class to be able to pull out. Although the class may be underpowered during unlucky and normal turns, giving the 500% to class isn't a good fix though.

This is a fair point to make. Just a few points of disagreement:

1) You can choose to play or not play a class. Ecas are based on chance. If you don't like gambling, don't play an Earth/Fire Eca.

2) That being said, ecas are always at least average. They're never "as bad as a level 1." The crit failure debuff doesn't even matter if you're using all-in, since you don't waste the AP. The only very bad turn an Eca can get is the 1hp thing, which I also think is kind of stupid. Ankama should consider getting rid of the 1hp/revive mechanics of the God cards, but I don't think it's absolutely broken. However, the chances of that happening (assuming you have an equal chance to draw all cards, which may not be true...) are pretty slim. It's literally 1%.

Side-Note: I really wish Ankama would tell us if the Eca's mechanics are based on a fair RNG. Because if they aren't, they really should tell us how it works, because we can't have class conversations if we're completely in the dark. Having to test this *** out for ourselves is getting to be really annoying. ANKAMA GIVE US MORE INFORMATION!!!

3) 500% may be high, but if there's a 0.1% of proc'ing it I think its fine. We also don't know how often it procs, so if it's a very low proc rate than it's probably okay.

Seems to be higher than we'd like, so maybe Ankama should balance that out as well.
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b-baller|2012-02-19 21:36:01
The problem OP has with precision is that it has no draw backs, it can be the result of a lot of frustration for many players. Some may say they get the 500% at the worst times, when it means nothing, others may say they never get it at all. Others may get it during a pvp matchup and be smashing their screens at how ridiculous it was.
It has no drawbacks except having to invest points in the skill. Generally speaking abilities improve as you invest in them. Why should eca skills be different? (Don't mention Eca Dice. bleh)

Frankly I have more problem with the range of eca abilities than the possibility of massive damage. They're damage dealers like iops on average but quite a bit more skirmishy. They already have nice mobility under the new lock system with leap. Most of the ranged skills could do with a 1 range drop.
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