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Ougi change suggestions.

By MisutoKiriya#5867 - MEMBER - August 02, 2022, 21:19:57

Don't take any of this too seriously, I am overall sharing my dribbled thoughts. 

I've always liked Ougi but it has been in a rough spot for some time now, here is some of my thoughts to evolve it into something more than an 'ok I guess' damage dealer.

so far I have been thinking.
- Removal of Control abilities ( Canine Glyph ) 
- Strengthen Positional abilities. 

- get rid of automatic removal after 2 turns ( changed to be much the other states: osa, enu, Hupper, Elio, sac ect ) 
- Enable rage gain when in were-ougi state. 

new passive:
Strong jaw.

- Adds 'Clamp' and 'toss' to hotbar.

- Must be in were-ougi state
- 1range.
- enemy only.
Attaches to target and gains lock
Can no longer move
Can only target clamped enemy
if Ougi is pushed connection is broken 
if Ougi ends their turn clamped to an enemy next turn they are debuffed with 'jaw ache'. 

Jaw ache: debuff given for starting their turn still clamped to an enemy prevents the use of 'Clamp' for 1 turn. 

- Must be in were-ougi state
- 2-5 range
Throws attached target in a linear direction. 
can now move and fight as normal. 

Tracking -
- If target has prey, Ougi can jump to their side right away.

Contusion -
if targeted cell is empty: Teleports Ougi to that cell.

Big Dog - 
Remove WP requirement.
weaken spell damage.

Bow wow -
- change Itchy from a range boost to a push. 

A small list so far, there is lot to consider.
I am not fully decided on how I feel on indirect damage within the air tree or if it would be better re-tooled completely.
The earth tree apart from damage feels lacking in the shield department, I do feel it might be best to pick 2 out of these 3.

Water's health steal - I think this one stands strongest, I wouldn't adjust water too much.
Earth's shield - I would remove shield from ougi completely, we have a handful of support classes that can do it way better so why not swap it for res gained? 
Air's indirect - as I said before I'm undecided on this, I would still remove the glyph. I feel it would be good if some values got adjusted. 

This would change the classes overall role and I don't plan to cover everything in one go, things such as ap values isn't my strongest suit so I didn't include any. think of this as somewhere to share my mind and get some feedback from fellow Ougi ( and ex-Ougi ) players.

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Score : 685

Completely agree with your kickoff (love Ougi and always have but frustrated with their treatment and where they are now) and thought I'd add a bit of my own rambling. \o/

I come from a bit of a different angle on improving things though, because I don't necessarily feel like it's the role or the shape of it that needs changing, I just also think it's always been incomplete. Both originally and after the sudden fairly comprehensive rework (I see you there elio players o/), a lot of the ideas behind their spells feel experimental or underdeveloped.

Fits and Starts was arguably the most over-tuned spell in the game, and I found that it carried what was otherwise a pretty underwhelming set of options. Now a lot of those other options are better, but they also haven't aged well against their competition--partly, I think, because a lot of them were the first try at a new idea and simply haven't been updated.

Ougi was very unique originally in having both meaningful sustain and self-armoring, but now that's relatively common. Watchdog and Brawl also don't gain increased armor on crits as most such spells now do. Likewise, Ougi was one of the first to have good ways to make use of excessive WP (and really needed to, to be competitive), but once again that's now common and Ougi doesn't especially shine in that way.

I will actually defend Ougi's poisons and indirect damage theme (bizarre as it is) to the death, both because I like it and because it's one of their only unique strengths stacked against an extremely crowded field of... bruisery... iop-like creatures. Air branches and positioning often go hand-in-hand but it's hard to make that different and unique beyond a point, so even ignoring sweeping and contusion (which... I do) that feels like the least of Ougi's issues to me.

Speaking of sweeping and contusion though, I think it's fair to say that all three of the elements feel top-heavy (and always have). Many of the spells exist in a vacuum (no meaningful interaction with passives or other spells), so they need to stand on their own merits but most are at least a little below average whether defensively or for breaking faces. Again, previously occupying space between being a tank and a damage-dealer was more unique and significant, and I still lean on that but it's harder and harder to justify.

I do think the new(ish) prey mechanic is a step in the right direction, and I was happy to see the old one go, but it definitely tends to feel like relying on something slow and surprisingly unreliable to do what other melee damage-dealers can do regardless. I won't sit here and say that old Fits and Starts was a healthy thing for the game because it absolutely wasn't, but Ougi's design was and remains fairly blunt. So I guess my take is either they need to be permitted to actually excel in this linear way (right now I don't think you can say that they do), or as you say there really ought to be more to their identity and I sympathize with the struggle to come up with one. Tanky, punchy, single-target-murdering melee classes are just really really really good in general right now.

I guess one other thing that comes to mind is that Ougi used to be really good at taking as much mp as possible from a target, and they're still above-average but can't dump WP into it anymore, so returning to the total-lockdown theme would be my thought there. There's some potential with the Bow Wow too since he's only ever been a probably-too-strong chomping buddy or a kind of awkward support. That said, I tried to make Ruckus work and hated it, but if he actually inherited your damage properly and wasn't so unrealistic to position for that sort of thing, I could definitely see getting more use out of the tag-team idea.

I do think a lot of things just return to power-creep though. Ougi isn't a bad class, they do relevant things well, they're just hard to compare favorably to their competition. Just as where once it felt like Enu was completely overpowered and mandatory, now people seem much more prone to taking full supports for resist shredding. Because full resist shredding is simply a thing you expect to be able to do now. Ougi doesn't feel particularly good at their intended specialty because the bar keeps getting higher, and like many classes they only seem to be noticed when something is problematic. Like... yes, Bone-Breaker was too good. That hit was deserved. But making Fits and Starts a spell that you would ever use is also deserved.

On a... random and happier (sort of?) note, I was literally looking at build ideas just last night and discovered that Pugnacity's tooltip is either wrong or extremely misleading, and the poison does twice the damage I thought it did. Flame Aura and Counterattack are other big sources of indirect damage too, so I've embraced the approach completely and don't dislike the result at all (even if, again, it's a weird identity to have and probably not how this should look).

In any case, I've probably typed far too much to say far too little, but I was really glad to see this post and know that I'm not the only one who notices and cares about this wonderful fuzzy class. They're good boys and girls, and I hope we can find some more love to send their way in whatever form it might come. Whether or not they've marked any territory they shouldn't lately. It's not her fault there's a great tree in that yard.

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Score : 2325

Hay there! that's a lot of words, I'm not amazing with huge posts so I am sorry if I misunderstand.
I'm happy to see someone else passionate about Ougi though!
Personally I have found use with Contusion in a Bruta build as it can be useful for moving something into the correct AOE shape and if you have enough air dmg does still hit nicely. 

I find the indirect stuff a little wobbly and I've never truly been able to get a poison build going that held itself up, Bone-breaker as an example... Fracture only triggering once if they move and does such low damage. 

But I wouldn't be against seeing it become more, a really strong poison damage dealer would be fun to play.

Really it is kind of hard, a lot of my memories is of old Ougi where we could take res ( old Crosshatch ) and fits and starts hit like a truck on ice. 
but the little things I always miss such as the old passive that made Prey free. 
But im aware old Ougi had some rather powerful things going for it and I wouldn't ever expect the return of old fits, just tough not to beg for some of the other stuff back.

I should have explained my feelings a little more on 'why' I suggested such changes to positional, Their description states how agile they are but I don't think that reflects too well with how strict current Ougi's movement is as well as the passive that removes 1 mp, Prey now being line only and LOS required is one of the gripes I have aha. 

the inspiration for my suggestion on 'Clamp' and 'Toss' also comes from just the expected feral power of a werewolf-type transformation. 
but I did look a little outside of the box of 'what is an Ougi' and thinking more on it its true: I'm not 100% sure if it fits what Ougi stands for. 

I guess also, I would like to see how Fury is gained changed a little, it builds a little too slowly for my liking ever since the bow wow lost its original sniffing ability but if it was still buildable in were-ougi I think that might fix things a bit. 

but Ougi isn't useless as it is ( some people have worded it that way to me ) I still take mine to endgame areas and for the most part as a brute build can oneshot or near one-shot most monsters on its own but in large groups needs some help from support characters.
and id say a bit more than normal CC dds who all have some way to jump or teleport instantly... or in enu's case get endless mp.
but then again personally i've never truly tried a distance Ougi, I always got about halfway through planning and being discouraged by the fact Prey falls off if you are more than 6 cells away or the number of spells you need a lot of range to make useful. 

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Well personaly I think the problem with ouguinak is that they have a weak theme.

The earth spells are about melee damage, tanking and lockdown which is fine
Air spells are split between poisons and midrange damage, but big dog is a setup for melee backstab
Water spells are about big melee aoe damage, lifesteal and dog damage?

So in theory the possible builds are:
Earth-water melee AoE bruiser that is just a worse sacrier
Water-air midrange build that has basically no support from passiv aside from Burrow
Earth-air melee ST poison build, that tries to keep enemies in melee to trigger pugncity, but doesn't have much sustain considering you have to be in melee with enemies

Air also has the sweeping and contussion that expect you to build a lot of fury, turn into were form and then spend the rage you built up along with the rage bonus from wereform to do a lot of damage, but it turns out spamming WP spells in were form with Sniff is just more efficient when you can get all your WP back every 2 turns so noone really uses them.

There's also Rucus that expects you to align your bow wow with enemies to do bonus damage, but:
-positioning your dog for a bit of bonus damage is tricky and since it moves after your turn, it's hard to keep him positioned since enemies will move around
-the water spells don't really incentivise a ST build with Weigh down and Curse being really powerful AoE spells
-it doesn't not really synergise with any build since the E-W bruiser build is AoE and it has unmodifiable range for W-A midrange builds

So if nothing else, I would swap big dog to water and ruckus to air

But the real question is why is transforming on turn 1 and spamming WP spells more efficient then using the ouguinak's unique mechanic (fury).

PS: I don't think positioning was ever meant to be an ouguinak mechanic, before the push was added to contussion ouguinaks actually had abslutely no positioning.
They could use better mobility though, tracker is ridiculusly underpowered, if anything is blocking the cell in front of the target it just fails

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