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Nerf/Remove/or Rebalance Brutality

By RynthZero - MEMBER - July 04, 2020, 20:09:18

This is an unpopular opinion but I believe the Brutality sublimation for epic's is too much stats compared to any other Epic or Relic currently in-game. It gets a ton of raw stats, the current equipment available at endgame promotes melee and Aoe by raw stats, and it decreases build diversity by being best in slot without equal alternatives. 

1) It gives up to 800 Aoe mastery based on your total melee mastery when you meet its criteria (Aoe mastery > melee mastery). You lose the same amount of damage from your distance mastery, which might seem balanced but in most cases, classes that would put this to use are only hitting in Melee and Aoe. 

2) At the current state of the game (lvl cap of 200) the gear that has the most stat distribution is melee gear, because its weighted to account for being closer to mobs and as such has higher hp and res totals and higher masteries on them. With sublimations and enchanting brutality builds can hit 5,000 Mastery totals while still having 80% total res. In comparison you have most Distance mastery builds topping out at 4,000 - 4,500 mastery total with 70 - 75% res totals.

3) As builds go the purpose of having the deck system and enchanting system was to promote diverse builds and strategies for all characters to be unique as well as have multiple ways to play them effectively. Alternatives to brutality each have a trade-off wherein the stats are converted; Anatomy, Unraveling, and Elemental Concentration each have a conversion or rate of trade-off its not a flat 100% conversion.  Examples include:

  • Anatomy requires 5,333~ General mastery for it to net 800 Backstab mastery.  (130% conversion rate with loss)
  • Unraveling requires 1600 Critical mastery for transfer 800 General mastery but does not increase total mastery at all. (50% conversion rate without net gains)
  • Elemental Concentration requires 5,333~ General mastery in your highest element to net 800 General mastery with 1600 General mastery loss all other elements.  (15% conversion rate with 30% loss in other elements)
  • Brutality you need 800 Melee and 801Aoe mastery to net 800 Aoe mastery and loss 800 Distance mastery (100% rate with 100% loss in Distance mastery)
* note: The effect of this is even more ridiculous in ALS because it is a 100% conversion rate 800 cap. *

For diversity of builds I think there are a few options available to remedy the current state of brutality. 
  1. Brutality could have its rate reduced to put it more in line with the other Damage oriented Epic sublimations.
  2. The other Damage oriented Epic sublimations could have their rates adjusted to make them equally viable compared to brutality.
  3. Introduce new sublimations that are different versions of Brutality wherein there might be an Aoe Distance, Single target Melee, and Single target Distance version of the sublimation making it so other builds can utilize a similar idea.
  4. Introduce new epic sublimations that for Damage oriented builds like: a Berzerk oriented sub that converts Berzerk damage into heals when above 50%, a sub that reduces 2 secondary masteries totals to zero but converts the total losses into a 3rd one, or a sub that gives General mastery per every Secondary mastery you have that is over a threshold of "X" (example: for every Secondary mastery with 200 in it you gain 100 General mastery total)

These are just suggestions, feel free to add your thoughts and ideas as well as your opinions on the state of brutality on the entire meta of Wakfu. 

*edit - to be transparent, I have 2 characters that use Brutality currently. *
22 -14
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Score : 132

I agree with you !

4 -6
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Score : 208

oh hello...

and yes!

2 -6
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Score : 2009

Do you think this is a problem for PvP or PvE?
What are the classes that can abuse of brutality?

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Score : 5200

I believe a problem for PvE is linked to a problem for Pvp (exceptions being if a strategy was using shortcomings of Mop Ai to predict outcomes, but human players would just play around them, ie Sram traps or feca glyphs where mobs don't use them in to calculate how they will take their turn. 

Classes with a decent amount of melee/aoe spells are: Ouginak, Ecaflip, Osamoda, Sacrier (with Transendense passive doesn't take the -Distance loss), Feca, Mask, Rogue. 

But those are just classes that lend themselves to utilizing it most effectively. I have build it on Sram, and Eliotrope, as well as Huppermage and Eniripsa. 

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Score : 1349

Even so, 4000~4500 Mastery with 70~75 Resist is a bit too optimistic for Distance Class. The more accurate and realistic range would be 3000~4000 with 65~75 Resist.

Given that +RA equipment often heavily penalize Mastery and/or Resistance, which Melee class can completely omit.

4 0
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Score : 5200

I was looking at the Best Possible case, your estimate is more likely with Enchantment RNG and settling for what decent rolls one can get. 

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Score : 43

I hope no because my friend had an ecaplif brutality but already melee can't do all dg and even have a lot of damage is weak for new dg and zint dg... all prefer distance class or another melee . So  I prefer  give more damage for melee aoe class . And for that my friend left the game can't even play the classes him love .so better more damage ! Or don't change nothing but no nerf

5 -1
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Score : 5200

Sad to hear your friend left the game. I understand some people like the current state that is why I gave alternatives to removing or nerfing, such as adding equally/diverse options for other playstyles.

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Score : 550

Devs touched upon the subject as well, saying it was too strong (beta discord server). It might get changed to a final damage buff in the future instead of mastery, but thats just speculation at this point. 

Personally love the concept of the rune, it makes for some nice and original build options. But i agree its a bit overpowered currently. 

6 -1
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Score : 5200

Good to hear that its a bit on Devs radar. I like the concept too and would love to see more Epic/Relic sublimations that change how we focus our build & playstyle. 

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But at the end of the day, no matter how amazing your stats are, melee still can't run endgame dungeons as easily as ranged characters. It may be alright-ish for multiboxers, but gl playing with other people. At least you will hit hard when you finally get a chance ;d If anything, I would love to see similar rune for st melee.

Or just make dungeon mechanic more melee-friendly. I couldn't ask for more.

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Score : 5200

I disagree, with melee being unable to run endgame, yes range characters have an easier time but that doesn't make melee not viable. Let's keep it on topic for the discussion a single target melee version would be nice too!

1 -2
Score : 1555

You complain because the number looks unfair but the builds aren't really that good and it's reflected in how few brutality chars are on leaderboards.

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Score : 4319

Agreed end game dungeons punish a lot of AoE by having it cost more in the long run or giving the mobs some amps.
Not to mention base damage on aoe combos usually a full 100 base damage weaker than their single target counter parts making one shotting extra hard.

4 -2
Score : 741

oh yeah!

Take a little AP away from brutality, you mess their entire turn up. their lower AP skills suffer, or take their movement away, anything after 2 cells they cant deal any damage.

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Score : 5200

For pvp, yes this is true but same would be said about melee single target focused characters or the reverse where you just stay in the face of a ranged damage dealer. Strategies for beating a brutality class doesn't address the ratio of stats it receives, but just how to endure it. 

1 -1
Score : 672

so from what i can see multiple experienced players have either told you outright its not as op as it looks or even broken down the mathmatics to why that is so and you still refute everything anyone says it seems like there is no reason to even try with you. That aside i will echo what the others have said the base damage on aoe spells is lower than single target spells and melee aoe requires strict positioning so the bump in power is more than fair if you were to give ranged anything close to an equivalent there would be no need for any melees as ranged classes already have better damage opportunities in most endgame applications. furthermore a build that gets 5k stats like you propose only represents 16% of its damage from brutality is it really that bad for a item that imposes such strict use to be only 6% more damage than similar subs such as wield type dagger
anatomy inflexible steadfast and elemental concentration?

 

3 -4
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Score : 5200

Maybe am coming across like that, I am sorry. A reminder that 16% of a builds damage from a single part is substantial. And yes that in comparison being only 6% higher than other options is not intrinsically bad.

My original point was just how much brutality gives /can still achieve for very little drawbacks. 

As for the experienced players,  I know a few of them from in-game and they also have a brutality character in their team comps. As do I, the discussion I hoped to start was recognizing its overtuneing and figure out some alternatives or fixes to make it less of a must take. What it seems to have instead occurred is players trying to downplay the fact and protect their biased views. But they are allowed to disagree I respect that.

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Score : 636

When you decide to use brutality you are making a conscious decision to cripple yourself for extra damage. Sure it gives a nice damage bump, but at the cost of having to play in a very restrictive, dangerous, and often times convoluted(Endgame) manner. The only class that isn't crippled by its use is rogue, but it doesn't matter cause they're already crippled by design.

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Score : 25
Ankama: Re-balance? What you mean?  I've never heard that word, I think you meant Revamp.
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Score : 9990

1) Melee+AoE builds are scarce as is, the rune also further specializes them into AoE leaving them with useless ST spells. The disadvantages of something can't be dismissed simply because they're used on builds which get the most out of their advantages.

2) The safety+damage flexibility ranged builds have entail having lower resistance, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

3) Again, it would be unreasonable to improve the other runes to provide a comparable stat boost to Brutality. AoE/Melee received a proportionately stronger rune intentionaly because it is an underused build-type with significant disadvantages. The only valid point here is how strong it is in ALS, I use it there and while it's amusing it is pretty disgusting how much DEEPS an optimized Brutality Masq can put out.

Honestly the alternative I'd prefer is more generous damage ratios on Melee/AoE spells rather than having to use a rune to compensate.

5 -1
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Score : -50

Eh, Leave brutality as it is. 

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Score : 2009

For fixing the ALS overpower, the max converted value could be a variable of the level.

If the bearer has more Area Mastery than Melee Mastery, adds the bearer's Melee Mastery to their Area Mastery and removes an equal amount of Distance Mastery at the start of combat.Melee Mastery is not lost; 4xlevel max converted. (or 3xlevel if they want to nerf it)
Level  x4    (x3)
215    860  (645)
200    800  (600)
185    740  (555)
170    680  (510)
155    620  (465)
140    560  (420)
125    500  (375)

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Score : 672

 

MohammadWom|2020-07-29 19:59:16
And I disagree with you alot, Barinade, burtality rouges are extremely dominant in each leader board, check the french leader, and see those INSANE rouge runs, s50 being down in a mind blowing turns, and tell me burtality is balanced then, its a top tier most abused rune in all leader boards, so please take a look before you throw ur own facts 

there are 5 dungeons in the entirity of ALL of remington in wich a rogue is on a team in the first place permanent.3 of them being the same rogue
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Score : 4319

Rogue is extremely under represented in Leaderboards period. I bothered to check them on both the FR server and there just aren't any rogues in #1 slot period, not that FR servers really even beat Remingtons turn to turn score too often. BUT the craziest thing is Blightopard was completed faster w/o a rogue at s50 but that's the besides the point. Every single one of the top #1 teams on every single server had 1 melee DD, and it was one of the two Iop or Sram and lets be honest. Neither of them were going brutality.

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Score : 140

I don't think that Brutality Kilorfs or Ecas are that way ahead of the curve in comparison to others mellees since Sram and Iop exists, there are plenty of then in the ranks and i was getting outdamaged by these two classes way before Bruta freaks started appearing in the game (i mained a ST Masq at that time, a class that has no space in the current meta endgame whatsoever).  Said that, i think that a good way to approach this is by nerfing some mellee/aoe gear, some of then gives more mastery and resist than it should give.

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Score : -39

Ouginak after update be like:
Diddly doo.

Maybe they should have nerfed brutality instead of ougis xD

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Score : 550

Surprise ph34r

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