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Ankama Trackers

Instanced Mining

By ANoemi - MEMBER - February 27, 2019, 19:21:18

I've seen a few similar posts on this but some were buried with no responses and others didn't make it too far when they did have responses. The maps have been updated and many of the resources are lagging heavily behind due to lack of updates to balance things out. Want to mine Zinc? Good luck, it's only available in one location in the world and even then there's probably only 12 - 15 nodes entirely. If another player happens to want zinc as well, good luck to you again.

When it comes to shared resources, it's actually quite a nice idea, but with mining it's become quite a stressful competition. People aren't mining because it's an interesting profession, they're almost always mining to mint kamas and the ores that make kamas are the ores that are almost always being mined. People rarely cooperate with eachother to split the areas with eachother, instead they often work in a devious manner to both get ores for themselves while also driving the other person away (since open PvP is no longer an option). While mining for koral I did my best to cycle from only the bottom part of the tunnel so the top half was still available but eventually someone came down anyway and deliberately tried to drive me out of the cave. If I moved to another nearby ore that was waiting to respawn, they'd move too and try to steal it from me.

None of it is really necessary. Many ores are already limited in their placement. With that said, there's really no reason to make them shared. Unlike trees, plants, crops, and so on, ores contribute nothing to the ecosystem. Players who may want to get things like koral or sandy ore to make steel are likely competing with players who are mining large quantities for several hours in order to mint kamas and it just becomes an unnecessary annoyance for both parties. I ran a timer for the fun of it just before posting this and it seems ores take roughly 6 minutes to respawn which explains why the limited quantities of ore are barely enough for 2 people to mine comfortably, let alone 3. If mining was instanced it might make mining a bit less of a chore that results in players using underhanded passive-aggressive measures to drive their peers away from just doing a simple profession.

What are your own thoughts on this?

Edit: TL;DR (since requested): In a nutshell, having a limited quantity of resources works for crops and such because you can still plant at your own pace or in your own locked bag but mining doesn't contribute to the ecosystem at all. Having players compete over ores just turns a relaxed profession into an unnecessary hostility.

Edit 2: Implementing the same system for fishing wouldn't be a bad idea since they behave the same way. Since people don't fish as much as they mine due to the kama minting process it's not as big of a problem but it can still certainly be a problen.

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Well, I am not sure what I should write besides: ""I agree, it is pretty obvious that we don't have enough ores for 2 people at the same time, so it is definitely not MMO friendly and even not enough for a game like Wakfu."

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Indeed, it doesn't really fit with the rest of the game anymore. The changes they've made such as to the world have resulted in quite a lot of other things that are now out of date with the rest of the evolving world.

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the problem is that you cannot enforce that the ore in question is yours
that's what open world pvp accomplished on paper
-someone that didn't bother to read that wall of text, make a TL;DR geez

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The tl;dr is more or less the title itself, the suggestion is instanced mining. Even if PvP were allowed, it wouldn't be very enjoyable going and mining a resource because you need it to make steel while others are mining it in large quantities to make kamas. All you're wanting to do is craft and suddenly you're being essentially murdered for it. Even if world PvP was still enabled, just making it instanced would let people work on professions in peace while PvP could remain for wars and whatever else.

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About instantiating it, something like the Trool Fair digging games? You pay a mining fee, get an empty mine cavern with a random amount of ores created (hell if I know... 20 nodes for... 800 kamas? 25 for 1000 kamas? Several options with different values*?) only for your char, and mine there until it's depleted or you log off? If the ore nodes were not restocked inside, being a one-time-harvest ore, that might be an alternative to the current restockables nodes in public areas.

* But maybe having something like the monthly Ogrest beatup for the tears being applied to this too? As the month is more advanced, less mining ores available for being created in the private mining instance (from 20 base to 10 or 5)? And maybe a new mine cavern discovered at the start of each month as excuse to restore the base value to max?

Renewable resources work like that, if all competitors catch too many fishes, the shoals of fish will reach a point where the fish population is scarce, or even extinct. Here, both minerals and fishes are fully renewable from the endless fountains of nodes, but the low amount of mining nodes makes it a one-player-only task. If the nodes are already low enough, and you have to wait for the restocking, having 12-15 nodes shared among 5 competitors at the same time there makes it not worth the time for getting a 1/5 of the possibly output (estimating 2-9 minerals for a newbie miner, or around 4-18 for a hardcore miner, for being parked in that area during the time a cycle last until restocked).

The problem with mining (and secondly with fishing to a lower degree), is that the scarcity of mining spots makes the supply get monopolized by usually a single miner. It doesn't matter if one were camping aggressively or not, there is simply not enough nodes for the current amount of miners. And time is better used for doing other things, so the most stubborn one gets the mining place if the others abandon.

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TheRogueCat|2019-02-27 22:43:00
The problem with mining (and secondly with fishing to a lower degree), is that the scarcity of mining spots makes the supply get monopolized by usually a single miner. It doesn't matter if one were camping aggressively or not, there is simply not enough nodes for the current amount of miners. And time is better used for doing other things, so the most stubborn one gets the mining place if the others abandon.

Among the other things you said, I have to say this one is absolutely correct. I spent quite a lot of time in the lower half of the koral section mining koral mines. Occasionally a person would come down, see that I was already mining it, and leave. Other times a person might stick around and try to get to a few nodes before I did, sometimes because someone was already mining the upper part. It's pretty disappointing hogging the ore from people but in reality I'm just trying to mine and it conveniently happens that everybody else wants to too. At present there isn't really any design for overflow.

As for the cave rental, it might sound good in theory but it's hard to say how it would be when put into practice. If the primary reason for mining is to mint kamas, charging people may not necessarily be counter productive assuming you're at least making more than you spend. What happens after the player mines said 20 ores? Do they have to pay again? It might get pretty frustrating having to pay over and over. Likewise, paying in bulk only to crash, disconnect, or be invited by friends resulting in you losing out would also be disappointing. If you're not minting kamas then it also becomes the only profession you have to pay to do.

The reason I propose making mining instanced is because it makes sense in many ways. The way the ecosystem works is based on balance with the wakfu and stasis systems, but with mining there's only stasis, so to speak. You can only take away and usually in large quantities. As such, mining has no purpose existing for everybody at once the way it does. From a developer standpoint, making ores instanced doesn't require any extra systems or a whole lot of new code. It will certainly need new code to make the ores behave on an individual level and perhaps a decision on whether to make it account-based or character-based but you won't have to design a location along with code to spawn 20 or however many nodes. They just take it from serverside (or rather shared) to clientside.
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I totally agree. I'm an hardcore miner, so i know pretty well the environment, and i'm literally annoyed by the players that try to steal your ore.
I'll explain: when i begin to mine i always ask if there is already someone, and if there is, to divide the mine or to alternate on ,for example, the sapphire/dark carbon spots.
In my opinion that would be equal also for who has a low miner level for a certain ore (and consequently uses more time to gain it).

And equal for all. And there would be less stress for all.
There are players that agree. But a lot of them or doesn't reply, or reply "no", or laugh at you because for the mine code they can steal (=wait at your same spot when you were already near it waiting for the ore to reappear, and try to take the ore first. And they don't do this only one time but all the times that they have the possibility to do it).
In my opinion that, simply, isn't respect towards other players that try themselves to get ores.

I know that everyone has different concepts about what is to steal, what should be right and what's the respect. But we're all players, we're all playing Wakfu and we should all have the right to mine the ores peacefully. 
And for the love of gods, there's also a limit to egoism (that's my idea of egoism).
Plus all the players have earned the right to mine a certain type of ore reaching that miner level, so it should be a RIGHT the possibility to mine them. Having said this...


I would suggest some things:

- your idea;
- or more rules:
that is that the behaviour of this guys would be punished:
for example if one has record-screen programs like OBS studio and he meet a sort of thief he could record the thing and send that to Ankama, and the punishment should be a suspension of the account for i don't know… 3 days every 3 video report? 
- or maybe a system that works in this way:

**Complicated way (but still efficient in my opinion)**
every place to mine could be like a room outside the world, and inside there should be only ores. The ores all respawn at the same time, even if one's just taken them.
And seeing the number of players that are in the room, the ores should be equally divided by the system and so one could take only the right amount of them (and the others couldn't take his ores).
And maybe there should be more rooms for the ores that are usually needed to mint kamas. 
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*For example: there is a room with 30 nodes, at the beginning there is only one player.
Rules: He can get all the 30 nodes without problem, at a certain time they respawn all together.
Enter a 2nd player: the ores are equally divided at the next respawn, so that at the next respawn every player can take max 15 ores and going on this way.
If there is a number of ores that can't be divided by the number of players to obtain an integer, example 30 ores with 4 players, the ores should be rounded to 28 and 2 ores shouldn't be accessible.
If one player left the room all the ores will be re-divided at the next respawn.
If one player enter(player A) and another go out( B ), the ores of B should immediately belong to A, also before the respawn.
For the respawn time:
the ores respawn at the speed that the max miner lv. take to take the ores. 
For example, the max miner level (what is? 140, 150?) will mine every ore in 3 seconds right? So the ores will respawn with a fixed time that will be the time that a max miner lv. would use to gain all the ores available for him at that moment (in the example over, with 2 players would be the time that a max miner level would use to gain 15 ores, counting the running time from one ore to the other).
So that the character with an higher miner level will gain more ores in the same time.*

**Simple way**
---> Following this way it would be more simple if everyone could have in their haven bag, like the garden, a little mine with only one ore for each type that when you harvest it, it'll immediately respawn.*
And maybe one could craft the base-ores so that one could decide which ores he want to have in the haven bag. Much simpler.
We can have a garden, why not a mine?

*And if not a single ore, maybe a room (like the garden) where you can choose how many and which base-ores to craft and consequently keep (and they'll respawn with their proper respawn time). So that one would be always encouraged to mine outside, but if he want to make his haven bag a mine why not? Like who have all the haven bag that's a big garden/field.


And maybe also the silver should be available for who doesn't use the shop. And breaks his shoulders mining.



Thank you for having read my papyrus. 

And sorry for my bad english.

 
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The Simple Way would be a bad idea, and here's why.

If anyone acould create ores in their Haven Bags, and those ores can be minted into Kamas, it would attract a horde of botters and bag farmer accounts clogging the servers. It would be possible to create kama-farming accounts that way. I suspect that this is the reason why Haven Worlds are limited, and mining nodes in Haven Worlds are limited too.

As for the complex way, I would suggest a decrease of node respawning time based on the number of active miners inside. More miners, faster node respawning. (Like, 1 player = 6 minutes, 2 players = 3 minutes, 6 players = 1 minute... if one of the players is not mining during that time, they cease being considered active miners inside and the timer increases back again.) It would allow to have minerals for all of them, as it would be virtually impossible for a single player to mine them all faster than what they respawn, and it wouldn't be too restrictive.

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Yeah, I've had people do the exact same thing, honestly the first post had a light rant in it because of what had just happened. Even upon moving to another nearby rock, I was followed. I'm almost certain they do this with the specific intent of driving you away so they can have the rest of the mine to themselves.

As for the rest, I'm a little unsure of the first few ideas. Recording players and submitting reports to ankama would require the player first has proper recording software and knows how to use it, plus it would require ankama frequently take a look at extra reports, some of which can be countered with a simple "oh, I thought you were afk" or something (there are occasionally people who sit in front of ores afk). Artificially limiting the ore might be unnecessary, it still requires a new system that not only has to be developed but also implemented (and to be fair, so does making ores instanced but it's probably one of the easier things to write). If there's several people seeking the same ore, especially if it's already in a low quantity such as zinc, how does it work? Does it increase the timer? How do you know which nodes are yours? If a player leaves and comes back, do your nodes shuffle over and over in a frustrating manner?

The haven bag one isn't all that bad of an idea but how would players build or "plant" nodes in their bag? Normally they just plant seeds or something of the sort but obviously you can't plant an ore and building it seems a bit strange as well. If you have an ore node that you can place, how would you obtain it firstly?

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I counted the report like a few minute thing in which one record the "thief-behaviour" of the other player, maybe after asking him to divide or alternate ecc. 
I don't think that it would be so, because i think that when it'll begin to be applied it'll become a rule, and nobody would overpass it for the fear to be recorded and then suspended. Maybe there would be occasional "thieves". I don't think that one could create an account only to raise the character to, for example, lv.105 miner only to steal dark carbon ores. And being suspended.

I think so for the develop thing.
In my idea there wouldn't be the problem for it. The nodes that are "yours" would be the exactly max number of ores that you could mine.  For the last question i wrote in the first post.

Another strange thing is that we can plant monsters.
However i was thinking like there would be a base-ore (like the crafting machines), which could be crafted. Then you can mine it and it'll respawn, but there would always be the base. Once crafted you have it. (But maybe one could put or a lot of items to craft it or many rare items, for example: for the Dark Carbon Base would be needed 10K of dark carbons + 50 carbon hara). It should be decided if making an only always-respawn ore or more normal-respawn ores. But as TheRogueCat said, the second wouldn't be a great idea...
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Other solution would just make it so each player's view of the nodes is unique to them so I could mine all the nodes and have to wait for them to respawn, while anyone that came up to them would see them ready to mine for them. (not sure how rare spawns would be handled. Could just make it a chance when mining to get extra ore of that rarity in addition to the normal ore mined. which wouldn't change the rarity) 

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That's basically what instanced mining means. The client mines the ore, a packet is sent to the server that says the ore was mined for handling the database stuff, relogging, and so on but rather than the info also processing the ore for other players it'd only process it for the individual player's character or account depending on what's chosen by Ankama.

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TheRogueCat|2019-02-28 16:46:55

If this were the case, it would lead to an open door to exploits, as being only client-based might be rigged to mine anywhere with a modified client. It could be easily detected by the server, but it's a risk to implement it like that. The server needs to check the validity of the client with its own data of where, when and what node was mined by the client.
 


Packets would have to be sent to the server to update the character's info in the database such as the updated inventory and to allow restrictions on ensuring the node was properly mined by the character or account. Assuming you had a modified client capable of sending your own update packets then you'd likely be able to just give yourself items, xp, and so on and if that were to happen you'd have other things to worry about, exploiting mining would pale in comparison. Things like certain quests and areas are already handled clientside so it's not all too different.

The server already has to receive a packet in order to update your inventory and save the updated data to the database so if you were to cut off packets (or basically lose connection) then you wouldn't be able to run around mining infinitely, nothing would save. Given the way the game currently works you probably wouldn't even execute the mining animation so there isn't really a worry there either.
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Having just got into Wakfu myself, I'd love to see a few tweaks to mining. I love woodcutting/gardening/herba...lzing(?), but mining seems like it will always be a chore, and a long grind.

When I'd previously played Wakfu around launch, I remember different nations each having their own mine, so there were plenty of spots to find ore. Now, most ores I click on from the Crop section only list one location to mine them.

If instancing or variable refresh rate are difficult to implement, simply providing more mining clusters would be appreciated. From my previous play I specifically remember dug-out holes in the overworld where 20~30 ore nodes were clustered - why not bring a few back into the overworld? There is plenty of real estate on most maps.

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My previous play-through was in 2012 on a different account back on Nox. Square Enix published the game at the time so it was region locked. Nevertheless because of the amount of time that's since passed I don't fully recall the specifics but I do indeed remember each nation having their own dungeons, areas to farm at each level, mines and so on which was indeed quite nice. The map overhaul was only a few months ago so there's still work to be done. No matter what approach is taken I certainly agree that many ores need more nodes, Zinc for instance has one sad location with a pitiful amount of ore. I don't think there's more than 15 nodes which is barely enough for 1 person to mine so when a second showed up you were basically getting absolutely nothing.

It makes sense that each nation doesn't need its own utilities nowadays since open PvP was removed which means even during times of war you can still freely access other nations but it wouldn't hurt to ensure each ore has a minimum of ~30 or so nodes at least in addition to perhaps having it in a 2-3 possible locations as opposed to usually just one. Even with the increase of nodes and locations I believe the concept of making it instanced would net the best possible outcome. Sometimes when I'm mining I'll see someone show up, see that I've already mined the place and am waiting for respawn which may result in them leaving and trying again later. Sometimes I see them check back an hour or so later but when you both need the ore from a limited resource it's difficult to manage, especially when people don't always agree to work together.

I get the feeling that increasing the amount of ores alone might increase the demand for ore since often the full amount of people that want to mine aren't actually mining if it's taken. Boosting the supply is likely to boost the demand as well now that more people will be able to mine so it's entirely possible it'll lessen the problem without actually solving it. If nothing else, certain ores like zinc absolutely do need some additional nodes even with instanced mining though.

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And plus the zincs are also very spaced one from the other. And when's night you can't literally see a thing. And you can't equip the torch because you must keep the pick.
It's literally a pain.

For the number of ores thing i agree. I know of people that don't mine because of it, but they would mine if there would be more nodes.
It would be a vicious circle.

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Adding more nodes in between the others would be a pretty simple solution to the zinc problem, you add more while also reducing the need to run so far across the area just to get to another ore.

It wouldn't hurt to make fishing instanced too, I hadn't really thought about fishing until someone mentioned it several posts above but since the function is basically the same as ore in it having only a way to harvest and no way to replant, it wouldn't hurt to have them instanced as well. The only reason it's not half as bad as mining is because you can't mint kamas with fish.

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It has been 14 mofo hours and I haven't been able to mine Dark Carbon in peace. I have seen one person hoard nodes for over 4hours and fought with 2 for a chance at couple of ores. Who ever came up with new nation miining zones was an idiot.

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I've mined for long periods while watching TV on my other monitor on the background as well and often it's because nobody is around but it's hard to say how many people see the empty ores and just leave, already fed up after checking the area every few hours. Often time when I leave, someone will be there to replace me within 20 minutes, if that even. Many of the miners aren't hostile, they just want to get their ores and leave like the rest of us but part of the problem is it becomes a cycle. A player shows up to mine and happens upon people with the behavior of vulchers which in turn forces the other player to act the same way so he can get his ores and move on. This player then contributes to the next people who pick up on the behavior.

The behavior likely won't go away until the problem is dealt with or the game population begins to decline but even that may take some time given that it's been 7 years and people are still playing actively enough for us to have an overcrowding in the mines. If the toxicity is enough to make several people leave the mines (which is partly why people behave this way in the first place, they "win") then I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few people who were fed up enough with the game and just left entirely. Ores are one of the better ways to make money in the game in addition to being used for crafting and restricting many people from being able to obtain ores properly also makes things like buying gear harder, progression can slow down pretty heavily when you can't afford to buy much and the alternative is limiting.

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"Many of the miners aren't hostile, they just want to get their ores and leave like the rest of us but part of the problem is it becomes a cycle. A player shows up to mine and happens upon people with the behavior of vulchers which in turn forces the other player to act the same way so he can get his ores and move on. This player then contributes to the next people who pick up on the behavior."

I want to add that there are many types of "thieves":

1) the "thief" that doesn't reply, or reply no ecc. and will continue to "steal", even if you behave "correctly". Here you can only try to steal his ores, and don't give up. And, maybe, impose yourself with force.
*sub-1st type: "coordinated thieves". You can only become like them, or you'll get 0 ores. Literally. Worst type.

2) the "thief" that behave like this only until you'll ask him to divide the mine.
Some people only doesn't understand english, but if you ask them in their language they'll divide.
*sub-2nd type: the "thief" that behave like this only until he won't see that you're "correct". And then he'll become "correct" too.

3) the "thief" that try to "steal" but if he see that you don't go away, he'll give up.
ecc.
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Instanced mines doesn't feel right imo. You're trying to turn something overly difficult to something waaaaay too easy. Right now you can make nice money with miner, but the competition is restricting you and that's fine.
Yet I agree we need more ores, mines are swarmed and people are annoyed when trying to get their resources. Even in the middle of the night there are still people fighting over ores x_x Would be awesome to get more spots with same ore without the way to travel between them quickly, so that one person would have to stay at one spot, leaving the other places empty for others.
Having them all avialable to build in Haven World would help too. 

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PorceeCat|2019-03-02 22:34:16
Instanced mines doesn't feel right imo. You're trying to turn something overly difficult to something waaaaay too easy. Right now you can make nice money with miner, but the competition is restricting you and that's fine.
Yet I agree we need more ores, mines are swarmed and people are annoyed when trying to get their resources. Even in the middle of the night there are still people fighting over ores x_x Would be awesome to get more spots with same ore without the way to travel between them quickly, so that one person would have to stay at one spot, leaving the other places empty for others.
Having them all avialable to build in Haven World would help too. 


I don't necessarily disagree with being able to put the ores in your haven bag or haven world but I can't really think of a valid way that'd work without being bizarre. Ores aren't really something you plant, plus there'd have to be a way to obtain it somehow. Buying an infinitely generated ore that can potentially be minted for kamas has quite a lot of loose ends.

As far as being "easy," well honestly that's exactly the goal. Remember, this is a profession and they're usually something far more laid-back you do when you want a break from critical thinking and when you're in the mood for something more difficult you can always return to combat. That said, the economy is also almost entirely player-driven so even if making the ores a bit more accessible puts more kamas into circulation, the economy will stabilize again. You'd still have to spend quite a while mining in order to actually make a profit, making the ores instanced mostly just helps alleviate the unnecessary stress and hostility caused by players having to fight over limited ore nodes.

After working on fishing for a while and coming to realize it works just about the exact same as mining, preset locations and all, it certainly could use instanced locations as well. It's strange having to compete with people on certain professions because they happen to want the exact same fish at the exact same time and just two players can easily clear a typical fishing area with a lot of time left over.

More ideas andopinions would certainly be welcome and appreciated.
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Not much i can say aside from like what genn said "i agree"
I made a similar post about it with a suggestion here
The ore issue is growing to be a bigger issue as the nations got revamps and ore locations became sparse and confined

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I mentioned in the wall of text up there I came across at least one or two existing threads, one of them may have been yours but I don't recall. I searched for existing suggestions made to get other peoples' thoughts on it and make sure I wasn't making a duplicate suggestion but the threads all had died after about a month or more and I'm going to try my best to keep this one alive. If enough people respond I'll see if I can try to get an official response (even if they say no at least we tried) but I'd like to get opinions first to see if we can either come up with better ideas, add to the existing ideas, and more importantly make sure others agree with this so Anakam can be assured it's not just a lone player's  thoughts.

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...Sooo much text..... but I (do agree (on the parts i actually read), something need to change for mining (and fishing), because it is simply NOT LIKE THE OTHER PROFESSIONS due to the VERY limited amount of nodes.

The "payed-for-instances" from TheRogueCat seems to be the easiest/best solution. If they can do it for Trool fair games, this should not pose much of a problem, either.

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