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Ankama Trackers
Score : -439

Get rid of Haven Worlds to improve Wakfu

By NewHook - MEMBER - January 03, 2018, 05:35:38

The game would be much better and more fun without Haven Worlds. 

A substitution would be to make the entire nation a Haven World that the government can control and the population can work with. Player made dragoturkies, zaaps, already used decorations, dungeons, buildings to increase the nation's strength, and rebuilding the buildings if Ogrests Chaos wrecks them at a chance would add in a good dynamic to everyone who cares about such things.

 

-11
Reactions 28
Score : 16786

...that actually sounds really cool!

I mean, I'd still like to see guilds being able to eke out a slice of territory for themselves, since permissions would be easier to handle that way, but this would definitely go back to the game's sandbox roots. This would also neatly resolve the issue of the Haven World market boards being taxless.

Basically the only reason I can think of why this wouldn't be a great idea is just the overhead of designing the system, and the potential lag introduced in Nation zones. But I'd say it'd be worth it.

-2
Score : 328

Nation laws would make this unbearable for every player in the game (because everyone needs to be a crafter now).

Becoming an outlaw every time you need to farm a plant is pretty obnoxious.

0
Score : 1494

CP system is outdated and has no other purpose rather than to get elected in govermnent. Why not get rid of it all together?

0
Score : 1494

Besides, the idea sounds fun, but it would mean that 5 players would rule the whole wakfu. Maybe even one player with 5 accounts... That sounds a bit too risky for an MMO to have - to give the game to a player.

But I'm down for whatever, so the server merge would actually take place as soon as possible, so the game wouldn't be dead anymore.

0
Score : 12170

I mean that IS how governments work IRL

-1
Score : 12039

More player control over nations would be good yes (lord knows people actually playing the game are better qualified for deciding where drago turkeys go) but I'm not seeing why this idea requires the removal of HWs.

If someone wants to farm flowers inside HWs that seems fine to me, there's not really any benefit from forcing them out into the environment. Farming profession resources in the environment is pretty miserable, because anybody else working on the same thing basically just slows you down and gets in your way... and it's not like anything interesting can happen along the way anyway.

-1
Score : 12170

But that's the charm of games, obstacles in your way to get stronger adds flavour to a game, like bitterness of chocolate (and separates if from stuff like cookie clicker and such)

-3
Score : 829

I'm with Fortune-and-Prosperity. The idea sounds awesome, but what would keep players from ruining stuff? What kind of limitation would the game provide so that at least most of the players are happy with what the governor+players are doing?

0
Score : 12170

There is already a voting system on governor popularity for this exact reson

-1
Score : -439

Prevent players from ruling or owning the government with your votes. If a nation is under tyrannical rule, move to one that isn't. Theoretically, it is possible for only five players to "rule the game world", but consider how microscopic that possibility is when you consider how many small and big guilds can band together to outvote someone else.

This idea is not required with the removal of Haven Worlds, but it's a suggestion since when Ankama normally removes a feature, they remove it without offering anything else in its place. Nations being the "New Haven Worlds" would be more than acceptable. 

Haven Bags exist for people to plant freely without opposition. Haven Worlds were intended to be guild owned but community driven structures. That image is long since dead and nobody but the guild in question uses it. It's produced far more problems to the game than it has fixed. The time to rip open the bandaid is with the Battlegrounds. Getting rid of Haven Worlds would be painful, but it would bring a net good to the game as a whole. 

At the very least: if Ankama cannot get rid of Haven Worlds completely, then the best fix to Haven Worlds would be to completely remove or drastically decrease XP from Herbs, Fish, Monsters, Trees, etc from doing activities inside the World. Because Haven Worlds exist, there's little to no reason to leave one. You have a perfect ecosystem with nonreduced rates of XP and you can easily go from level 25 to 200 in a Haven World while maxing all your professions all in the same location. This is a problem for the plebs with no Haven World because not only do they not have that benefit, but they're cut off from peers their level because everyone with a brain is inside of a Haven World. 

-7
Score : 290

So basically you want the game to go back to its beta state, which i dont disagree with.
They game has made a number of unfortunate changes.

0
Score : 1205

Can imagine the chaos it would make towards people who wanna farm peacefully, toxic compition and cancer people... rip no thanks..

Personally I don’t agree with it.

The definition of FUN is purely subjective.

What is FUN to you might not be the same with others.

-1
Score : -439

Haven Bags exist.

-4
Score : 1007

I'd like to see the nations used more again, in the past Ogrest chaos really gave gov teams lots to do, I remember organizing gathering groups for hazel wood to repair damaged crafting stations. It was fun to work as a community on things. 
Really the only issue with it was to do with a bug that made it impossible to fight if it hit a city area.

As for havenworlds though... ehh It's nice to have houses and stuff and guild goals to do with it but I feel they really need to update them. At least give them some day and night cycles and the option to change music. 
I feel I could maybe live without it though, maybe if they changed it so they are somehow linked to the nation the guild belongs to or something. 

0
Score : -18

The sad thing is that this game is dead and ankama don't care they have wreck this game so bad it will never come back,getting rid of haven worlds will not bring back the game,and  why is ankama fixing bugs and more things like battleground and more if there is going to be a server merge? i don't think it will ever happen,and ppl complain in this game if things don't go there way that's why the game is dead. they killed the cra and Enu to were this game is not fun any more, and i will take my hw over planting outside ,i have played this game since beta 5 years now it it has only gotten worse it will never get better,you can think ankama and the complaining ppl of this game. and if there were going to be server merge they wouldn't fix anything they would be working on merge but they are not.

0
Score : 108

Agreed. Hw's are ruining the game honestly even though they provide bonuses to the owners.

1) Hw's are only used to farm stuff, which is good and all, but people dont use areas outside in the nations to farm, so whats the point of having those areas in nations or the climate system ?

2) Hw's provide tax free market to owners, that is good and all, but looking at the markets and players using it to simply abuse it is just disgusting from my point of view. People who arent fortunate enough to have a Hw have to pay taxes to sell their items and the time they can sell for is uber limited, while people who have Hw market just place random crap on market for 9 billion kammas for max period of time, is that normal? smile Secondly, i see alot of "endgame" players who just buy items of market and stack them in market for free, it may sound like im complaining about prices but thats a fact. Its just plain ol abuse. In my point of view even if Hw's remain i would wish for the markets there to have some sort of tax so people wouldnt be able to abuse them as much.

3) Guilds with Hw's have a clear advantage to the ones that dont have them. Thats fair, because HW can give more bonuses, however  the clear issue with this is that most people who are looking to  join a guild, never join the ones without hw, why ? Heaven world market. People love free market and due to this, there are far less guilds in the game that are unique.

4) Oh and let's not talk about the Hw's that are being sold for IRL MONEY,  because they are MONOPOLIZED by people who have tons of kammas. Thats a clear issue in the game, because not only it does not let new guilds get a hw without spending stupid amounts of kammas (which is definetly not worth it- just join a guild that has one), but also REAL WORLD TRADING is a thing that destroys games.

Well atleast thats my point of view. I cant speak for everyone, but there are people on rem server that feel the same as me. I support the idea that Newhook proposed, cuz that not only would bring in dynamic to the game, but would also solve many other issues regarding HW's.

0
Score : -18

I agreed with some of what you say  ever since i started playing this game 5 years ago the prices of items have always  been to high,i have always sold my stuff for lower than what market sells for so all can buy, i am owner of 2 guilds with haven worlds and i have spent many many many kamas to build them to lvl 10 and with all the bonuses but i understand what you are saying there are to many guilds in this game  to all have hws, if they would make  our haven bags bigger and give some of the bonuses that we get in haven world i might agreed with that, but planting out side of hw i don't like cause when i want to pick my stuff i can't unless i want to become a outlaw,so that's why i love the hw worlds i can and pick all i plant.i just don't think ankama cares about nox server to do any good for the players which they have made dead all them self,i hope they do fix all the stuff they need to do to bring plays back and enjoy playing the game,and i hope they do the merge but i don't think it will happen.

0
Score : 12039

I really think you're overstating the power of HWs.

Combat XP

They're good for combat XP, but the difference between HWs and other sources is a lot smaller than it used to be. Farming mobs in HW got less efficient now since HW mob pens have randomized spawn order so you can't farm your favoured mob over and over (but you can do that in the wild) and you miss out on relic fragments + ogrest tears as they don't drop inside HWs. Also dungeons and hordes/archs are good for xp and give some exclusive drops. And that's relevant because gearing is ALWAYS harder than levelling on this game, so for new players getting useful items whilst they level is probably more efficient than going for peak XP. Yes players can go from 25-200 inside HWs, but that doesn't take very long and it's a comparatively minor part of the game IMO. Really if there was a time to ask for HWs to be removed for ruining the game, it was before they nerfed mob pens.

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HW market

HW market being taxless is powerful but I don't think it's brokenly so. People can already trade taxless through direct trades so taxless market is not unprecented or the only way to do it, it's just the most convenient way to do it.. but I think that's fair because it has an investment cost to it. If you applied tax to HW market then players would just shout super expensive items at alma or list them on forums instead of the market so it's not like players would suddenly eat 10mk taxes all the time. Listing junk items for 2 bil kamas as a joke is hella dumb though yeah. Players buying items to resell is normal and healthy and even without tax it's not a zero risk investment because you might misjudge the value of an item or items might go down in value (I do think it's scummy to ask a friend for a bargain for an item you "need" then turn around and resell it though). Personally I am also very dissatisfied with the current game economy but items being expensive isn't the issue IMO, it's some items being very expensive and other items within the same tier being almost worthless. If a rare item costs 15mk, but more common items (but still 1% droprate) cost 2mk then that isn't too bad. If a rare item costs 15mk, and more common items cost 200k then that's pretty bad. So I don't think the problem is that there's too much money in the economy, I think the problem is that some items are hilariously oversupplied so are basically worthless whilst others are incredibly rare so are absurdly expensive. And getting those rare items still comes largely down to luck more than anything else. And having some expensive items as kama sinks can be good, but NOT when they're essential parts of builds with few viable alternatives (having some lvl 200 epics being rare and expensive is fine, having ALL the epics within a level tier be rare and expensive is dumb).

So I do think earth emblem was a good addition to the game as a bargain (but probably suboptimal) lvl 200 emblem. Having a cheaper lvl 200 emblem is good because it means people aren't completely reliant on the dofus fragment emblems. And at this stage getting 2m ogrest damage is (or should be) pretty routine, so it's luck whether you get dofus fragments and people have dropped more in a single fight than I've gotten in the entire time I've been running ogrest.

I do think market could do with some real changes but I'd actually push to restrict tax rather than broaden/increase it. Change it so tax applies on sale rather than listing. And you also pay the tax to unlist an item (to prevent people from chain undercutting). Increase market listing times. Allow HWs to ignore the sales tax, but not the unlisting tax.

That change would let new players list items without worrying about taxes (because it would only apply if the item successfully sold) and let high value items stay up on market for long times without needing to reup them. But it would penalize undercutting so you'd be encouraged to list an item at a good reasonable price because adjusting it later would bring a penalty. That said I think droprates and reward schemes need work more than the market does. I think the sources of kama annihilation need a rethink too, cus currently it mainly comes down to market tax (which is essentially optional and avoidable) and rune upgrades (which aren't really worth doing except at lvl 200 where they become necessary).

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Complaining about people monopolizing HWs is fair and I do think they could stand to add more HWs or auction them more frequently. Some kind of upkeep on HWs would also be entirely justifiable and fair.

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Professions

HWs ARE supremely advantageous for levelling professions. I'll definitely agree on that (I did however raise my profs to 100 outside of them because my guild didn't have a HW at the time). But well I really don't think the ecosystem system on this game is any good anyway. It just gets in the way of what you're doing whilst providing 0 advantages and it's not like it enables anything interesting to happen either.

Saying "remove HWs because they mean players just ignore the ecosystem" is missing the point IMO, the problem is that the ecosystem system itself is punitive and boring... and it's better to fix that at the source by making the system rewarding and interesting rather than demolishing the workaround that people have come to rely on.

So something like the rare spawn surges was a good idea I think because that added a reward to well balanced eco and gave wild farming an advantage over HW farming (worse for normal resources, better for rare resources). The changes to env quests and archmonsters also help a bit, because farming in the environment you're better positioned to take advantage of those.. but still swapping between gathering and combat is kinda annoying since you need to swap items around and possibly find a group too. But the core problem is really that the item upgrade system needs large quantities (~160 rare fish or 800 basic resources for ONE item) and those quantities are okay when approached as mindless repetitive grinding (though it's literally a task best suited for a bot than an actual player) but are a huge waste of time and energy if gathering has obstacles to overcome and people getting in each other's way and forced downtime (and the possibility of losing your crop).

So in my experience the ecosystem in this game exists purely as an annoyance, I've seen plenty of people finding frustration with it and nobody finding anything good about it. (I know some people like the PvP system but I'd say that's a bit different from professions and the ecosystem itself).

"I planted 100 trees, then someone else cut them down when I wasn't looking" isn't fun.
"I planted 200 flowers, but I can't harvest them cus someone else on the opposite side of the map harvested a bunch of stuff" isn't fun.
"I spawned a rare ore, but someone else sniped it" isn't fun.
I think they fixed the "I picked up one flower and became a criminal" but that was dumb as hell too lol.

Would it be fun to harvest someone else's stuff? Well... I still think trying to scavenge other people's stuff would end up less efficient than farming it yourself just from the low chances of finding stuff to steal so setting out to steal resources is kinda pointless. And if you doing it for trolling purposes then that might not work because someone might just be doing it for XP and not care about the resources or you might never see the person who planted it or they might've been wild spawns anyway (eco seems to reset to full after server restarts).  If I'm missing something then please detail the scenarios where the ecosystem creates fun and interesting scenarios, because I'm really not seeing them.

"Players working together to balance the ecosystem" sounds nice but in practice I don't think it really works here because if you're trying to do anything you basically just get in each other's way and players that decide to ruin the eco by stripmining the whole area are actually the ones that profit the most lol. And I do think there's some way to make ecosystem systems interesting, but I really don't see anything good about the current one and it would need some massive revisions to make it work (you'd want almost the exact opposite of the current game).

If you wanted a resource gathering system that's engaging and encourages cooperation I think you'd want.
- Limited professions per player (so players can find items they can't personally harvest themselves)
- Small quantities of rare highly valuable materials needed for upgrades (so getting 1 or 2 very rare resources would be a good haul)
- Large environments with significant PvE or PvP obstacles to overcome in transit or navigation difficulties (lower chances of someone else finding the resource whilst calling in a harvester, prevents using alts to get around profession limit so easily).

-1
Score : 16786

I broadly agree with your critiques but I also recognize that these area really issues that Wakfu should've solved back before 2012.

The way haven worlds are currently used is like an ugly bandage over the flaws in the game's sandbox elements that has the unfortunate drawback of significantly advantaging the oldest & richest guilds and further segregating the game's population.

Like a lot of wakfu's early problems, the solution for broken & incomplete systems ended up being just giving players ways to never interact with those systems, instead of fixing them. With the way things work right now, I definitely prefer the game with haven worlds to the game without. But...

I don't think removing Haven Worlds on its own would fix anything, but if that's a necessary step as part of a broader reworking of the game's sandbox elements, then I would welcome it. The entire point of an MMO is to encounter other players and do things with them. If the game's going the direction of players doing largely solo activities with the occasional interaction with other players, then the solo experience needs to be deeper.

0
Score : 261

All those topics show that the majority of people prefer to stay in HW.

We can just ask : Why?

regardless of the economy; cause the environnement features are toxic ( PVM outside dj; Job lvling/ farm)

So the solution is not to make all the player suffering of the toxicity ^^". but make the environnement healthy ( people could go outside HW wich just become an private area ( u dont have the obvious disadvantage without going to HW) )


Concerning the economy all is resumed on this sentence:

The offer/ The demand ( translation by : french bwork company ). 

Geting the mythics item on markets is now worth than use ressources to get token ( wich are used in SO MUCH procecus)

Some of them cost more than final gear that theire suposed to upgrade in some case. Basic job ressources a just too much spammed too for them to get any value.

Without this basics way to get item restored in a bankable way to stuff for ALL PLAYERS ( and not part of them sleep using near cheat alternatives moreover) and the number of rare ressources of some kind ( making the price bigger on "simple" composant; even if some could be more rare than other with the lvls) We just cant change anithing

I love The idea of the limitation of Jobs/ acount ( cause really need to counter the x3 chars  and as much as possible the multi account)

But i dont know if they can anounce it to people who get the entere jobs panel lvl max even if its trully healthy for economy

0
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