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Score : 15917

[Enutrof] Some simpler suggestions to improve the play experience

By Gelgy - MEMBER - November 07, 2017, 06:56:42
I realize my other suggestion thread was maybe a bit long, and maybe involved some too complex mechanics.. but I still believe the Enutrof's playstyle could be simplified and improved significantly.

For the most part, these suggestions are oriented toward making Enutrof's abilities useful for PVE, and making the class's mechanics simpler and more intuitive. Simply put: Enutrof is too hard to figure out and make good use of right now. Even setting aside the damage loss, it's just not intuitive or fun trying to apply Enutrof's debuffs right now. Even with the Movement Spell being free to use, it is a cumbersome and slow effect and making it mandatory for Enutrof's turns is a major detriment to the class's playstyle--especially at lower levels where the essential spells might not even be unlocked!

Sapphire Mines:
  • Increase the effect duration
  • Allow effect to stack: -50 elemental resistance (max -100)
Presently the sapphire mine's effect is of limited utility, since it goes away at the end of the Enutrof's turn. If it lasted until the start of the Enutrof's next turn it would have a significant place in Enutrof's repertoire and give the Enutrof increased utility as a supporting character.

Mine Creation:
When creating mines with the 2 ap elemental spells, change the condition. If there is a mine, trigger it. if not, place the associated mine. Purge, Fusion and Shovel of Judgmenet have a cast limit of 4 3 uses per turn. Even if these spells could create mines under targets,the Enutrof would not be able to abuse them too heavily because of this restriction.

Enutrof's reliance on casting these spells on empty mines or using the Movement spell are the primary bottleneck for the class's playstyle. Without the Movement spell, Enutrof has no reliable means of utilizing their core mechanic, which is a serious problem, especially at lower levels where Movement hasn't even been unlocked for the Enutrof.

  • Reduce damage ratio from [2-50] to [2-46]
  • Change range from 3-6 to 2-6
  • Rephrase to:
    • Triggers the [mine] or creates a Sapphire Mine
    • -[2-46] HP water

  • Reduce damage ratio from [2-50] to [2-46]
  • Add effect: -1 range [target]
  • Rephrase to:
    • Triggers the [mine] or creates a Ruby Mine
    • -[2-46] HP fire and -1 range

Shovel of Judgment (Pelle du Jugement)
  • Rephrase to:
    • Triggers the [mine] or creates an Emerald Mine
    • -[2-50] HP earth
I recognize that these effects might seem strong, but remember that these spells are cast limited. Casting Fusion repeatedly on one enemy could, in theory, apply -5 range to them, but it would cost the Enutrof 8 AP to do so. Similarly, Purge would take 8 AP to remove -100 resistance, and Shovel of Judgment would take 8 AP to remove 4 MP. Even while dealing damage, these effects are not out of line with what other classes can achieve. This is not something the Enutrof would be able to spread to multiple targets well.

If the current Enutrof's Blessing makes direct mine placement & activation like this.. I think it would be better to redesign the passive than to leave Enutrof's core mechanic so weak.

Rascalry (Filouterie)
  • Add effect: "If [target] is on a [mine]: [caster] +10 Treasures"
Enutrof presently has no reliable means of generating Treasures without the Treasure Tracker passive. This is a problem for the behavior of the spell Refinement (Epuration). What's more, Rascalry's current effect (changing a mine into a sapphire mine) is woefully unappealing on a single target spell with a low damage ratio. You might also consider increasing the spell's damage ratio.

Movement (Déplacement)
  • Please shorten the spell's casting animation, or at least shorten the animation when selecting a mine type.
  • Rename the spell Mine Mover (Excavation) spell to Excavation in English (it no longer moves mines!)

Prime of Life (Force de l'Âge)
  • Change conditions from 3 turn cooldown to "1 use per turn"
  • Please add a visual indicator for the spell's area of effect when casting it.
The conditions for this spell's effects already sufficiently constrain it. It would cost 9 AP to reliably trigger this spell. 

Seismic Wealth (Richesse Sismique)
  • Please add a visual indicator for the spell's area of effect when casting it.

Additional feedback:
  • Consider an alternative cost for the spell Seismic Wealth (Richesse Sismique). 3 AP is a steep cost for a damage boost with significant constraints and set-up costs.
  • There should be some way for Enutrof, or any class, to view their innate mechanics outside of combat. These innate effects are often overlooked, creating confusion.
  • Please review the power and utility of Enutrof's passives. Some passives, like Greed and Not Dead Yet, are not appealing enough over generic passives like Carnage or Evasion.
  • The loss of the old Greed mechanic (get Broke to level 2 or 3, consume to steal life), has reduced Enutrof's durability and some of the fun of the old single target Enutrof. I feel like a new version of this mechanic could find a home on a passive like Trade Secrets, Greed or Not Dead Yet.
  • Drhellzerker is simply not very interesting right now, except as a melee range damage boost.
  • The spell Killer Spade (Pelle Tueuse) feels out of place and unappealing on Enutrof's kit. It's been compared to other niche PVP spells, like Ecaflip's Hunter, but from what I can see its use is even narrower and less interesting. At least Hunter's base effect provides reliable healing while setting up an interesting mechanic. Killer Spade is not an interesting spell, and its utility is extremely narrow.
  • Perhaps Killer Spade could steal 50% of the damage it deals? Or become an MP removal spell?

EDIT: Specific suggestions redacted and feedback updated based on further conversations.
Reactions 9
Score : 1593
I like this suggestions, hope the dev's can read them and apply them.

I would also like to add if they could add some visual zone to show what is the area of the spells "Prime of Life" and "Seismic Wealth", cause right now I have to count the tiles to see if the mines are within range and this takes time in the limited 30 seconds new have per turn. Just add a visual zone like all the other AoE spells to help visualize the area of effect of this active spells.

One example would be Eliatrope's "Barrier" spell that shows the AoE it'll have if the spell is used, this would really help in the use of this two spells.
Score : 15917
Yeah, the lack of any visual feedback on the area for spells like Prime of Life and Seismic Wealth is a problem.

It doesn't affect me much because at this point I know the game's AOE mechanics well enough to know the size of the AOE in-combat. But it's a serious usability issue.
Score : 10301
The sapphire mine debuff will last until your next turn if you use the drheller for triggering them. But yeah, -50 resistance is quite crappy. At least -100 would make good use for 2 sapphire mines if you happen to have/create some near the desired target. No point in detonating it yourself if you have team members that might exploit its effect.

Rascalry, I haven't used it ever again since the revamp. I plainly see no usefulness on it. Very very situational that makes it not worth it to bring to battle. (In fact, I only use Purge from the water branch now, for creating sapphires when needed.)

"Rename the spell Mine Mover (Excavation) spell to Excavation in English (it no longer moves mines!)"

Killer Spade, similar case than Rascalry but different. Useful, but so situational that I can't afford to include it in the deck due to having to bring many other spells.

Prime of Life and Reaping are so limited now that looting with pouches is not the same. (And worse yet if the "prize" goes to anyone else.) I only use Prime of Life for boosting Treasures in first turn, or for looting boss or special units. Other than that, too "dangerous" and/or situational to use for other kind of mines if your allies are near the enemies.

Drhellzerker is very good for using in melee in terms of damage, the only setback is the lack of defensive skills other than higher resistances with the right passive. (The Marrow Bone can't be casted while in Drhellzerker shape.) Other than that, the potential +100 to all resistances is quite good.
Score : 3289
It all comes down to KISS keep it simple sram bare bones so to speak.
Score : 2566
The discussion has been around the fighting/buffing/debuffing, so I will not focus on those.   I will focus on the purpose of gathering materials that has been one of the main selling points of the Enutrof class for years.

I have been a Crafter since Wakfu opened.   One of the goals of Enus was to drop purses from monsters for a better chance of getting mats and equipment.  Over 5 years ago, my second Character was an Enu for which helped me a lot to gather the materials for my crafts. No matter what, if a monster had at least one drop, it was almost guaranteed to get a drop from a pouched bag.  The rare case of empty purses were monsters that would not have any drops at all.

For the first 2 years, we were trying to determine if the big pouches increased the drop rate, at last around 2014 we got an official answer, that yes, it doubles the chance of a drop rate.   (And something about flipping the drop table).   Near this time, I believe is when the tables of a dropped pouch became similar to a players chance of dropping something.   So the Empty Bags and the 10 prospecting points candies became the norm instead of the exception.

So through the years, the sense I got from people about Enutrofs with respect drops:
(1) Better chance of poaching materials
(2) Better chance of poaching equipment,
(3) The possibility of maxing out the Prospecting points to get a better chance of a drop.  (This only applied to the Enutrof).

I have presented some history as baseline of from where we come from, so I can discuss where we are today.

I will not discuss point (3), because essentially that feature is gone from its original form (with respect the drops) and does not matter to me compared on how cumbersome and time consuming is to get a successful drop from the pouched bags. The points (1) and (2) are the same right now, drop wise, but I will separate them in preparation to my suggestions.

For refresher, here is where the changes were officially mentioned:


(A)  The first thing that caught my attention was that the pouched bag goes to a random player.   Actually, the argument I understood was “The fights are shared efforts, so should be the loot”.   I thought to myself “Wow!   When in the Wakfu Lore Enutrof are known for sharing?   Yes, we got some exceptions in the Lord, but really?”. Anyhow, I can live with this so it is fine by me.

==> Suggestion: Leaving it as-is is fine by me.

(cool Since we started to get the Empty Pouches and the 10 Prospecting Points Candies, as norm, instead of the exception, I started to loose interest in investing time on pushing bag and event less in expanding them.  (Since the double of .3 % is .6% ).  Right now I just run trough the mobs/dungeon faster and get the drops at then end of the fight, instead of trying to use a lot of time to plan to make monsters drop bags and then walk to get them.  

==> Suggestion:  If I am going to invest time planing and setting to drop bags,  I would do it by knowledge that I will have significant gain from my increased effort.
For example:
> Normal Bags increase a 15% chance of getting  drop form it,
> and Fat Bags increase a 30% chance of getting a drop from it.
>Normal Bags gives you drops with White, Green and Yellow rarity,
>meanwhile Fat Bags give you a chance of all the possible drops for that monster.

Something on those lines would make a worthwhile gain to invest so much time in a  monster.

(C) Drop bags when monster dies. 
The advantage I see to this is that the monster do not have a chance to walk over the bag as it had before.  But the BIG downside is that if the fight ends, and the last monster is “Broke” you NEVER  have a chance to get the bags, that is the base of boss fights, that often the boss is the one that has the materials that you are interested, but also often they are the last monster.
Even worse, if there monster is alone, that means that you will never get pouched bags from that single monster fight.   Or situations like the Sylarg Boss in the Frozen tower that because its mechanics ALWAYS it will be the last monster in the fight.

==> Suggestion: There is a routine already coded in the Quest of the Jellinator (or whatever is named), that is blows items into the guild at random, including bags!  This could be adapted to the Enutrof, that when it force the “broke” state on a monster, the pouched bag will be “blown” somewhere into a random spot in the fighting area.    Like the Jellinator does.  That would solve the impossibility of getting a bag from the last monster in a fight.

==> Conclusion:  I be willing to use my Enutrof again for my crafting by 1 bag dropped instead of 2, if my suggestions would be implemented in some form or another.

I have not forgot about the suggestion of separating  points (1) and (2).   I will post it below. happy

Annnd, the forum merged my separate postings, so we end up with AN EXTRA long posting. Oh well.

To my last Suggestion, separating the chance of Materials and Equipment, instead of a single table.

For what I could read, the main reason people complained about the Enutrof Pouching is that equipment was too easy to farm, hence the actually drop rates of the pouch bags of today. 

The drop farmers, in general, get one piece of equipment for their characters, or maybe multiple (in average under 10 in one shot) to sell at the markets. Meanwhile for crafting materials you need tens (10s) if not hundreds (100s) of the same type of material to complete 1 crafts.   Maybe we should separate the generation of the drops into two passes.

==> First pass, with the “materials” table.  If no material drop, then,
==> Second pass, with the “equipment” table.  If no equipment drop, then
==> Prospecting Candy?

This way, the Material farmers would get drops in proportion to their needs, and the Equipment farmers would get drops on proportion to their needs.

NOTE:  Equipment that can be upgraded I do not consider it as Material, I still consider it as Equipment, under this classification.

NOTE2: I never have created runes, so I have not taken in account the farming of "crushing equipment" for rune creation.  Maybe someone has a suggestion to improve this aspect?
Score : 15917
Yeah, I agree!

While I like the idea of shifting Enutrof's looting tools off to the side so that the class can be designed as a competent class for in-battle purposes, with a distinct opportunity/resource cost to stopping to loot instead of fighting, the current set-up feels like an over-correction.

My thoughts on pouches:
Current pouches, improved material rates:
I like the concept behind this one. Although maybe simply doubling the base drop-rate for resources/miscelanneous items in purses would make sense.

Resource only purses
This, I think is an idea with potential too and might throw up fewer complications with the game's existing loot mechanics. Instead of being based on Prospecting, these purses could simply give random extra items at the end of combat based on the monster's family.

Normal monster purse
Would have a chance to give a stack of the monster family's combat resource, the rare resource, a small chance for one random global drop based on end-of-battle pp, a random stack of powders based on the monster's level, and a large chance of giving Enutrof Prospecting candy. Maybe a chance for Relic fragments.

Could either be randomly assigned to the party like now, or just given  to whoever picks up the purse. With the value & rates of the items being much more controllable (no SUPER RARE drops in the loot table), these pouches would generate a lot less grief than the old pouches did.

Dungeon boss & archmonster fat purses
Same as the normal monster purses, but given to the entire party and with the boss's resource as a possible drop.

Dominant monster fat purse
Exactly the same as a normal monster purse, but given to the entire party.

Special monster purses
Some special cases, like the Moon Island archmonsters and Ultimate Bosses create more abusive situations for purses. These monsters could either just... NOT drop purses, or maybe give special purses with consumables, orbs and other random goodies based on their level slice to the party. For Militia in Battlegrounds, the purse could be 50% Prospecting Candy, and 50% Supply Crate.

And maybe the ideas could be mixed. Instead of an "Enutrof Prospecting Candy" null result filling up empty slots in the bag table, it could also just have a chance to contain a piece of the monster's drop loot determined using prospecting, with Enutrof Prospecting Candy only appearing when this loot drop is a null result.

Either way, I think  it'd be more fun and less frustrating all around if purses simply had a higher chance of giving extra chunks of normal resources. Enutrof crafters would appreciate the extra crafting supplies, and other members of the party would be less likely to feel jealous of the Enutrof bagging stuff like Badgerox Fangs & Claws than of the Enutrof randomly bagging relics & epics.

(Keeping in mind that the rate of Null Drops vs. Useful Drops in purses should be balanced against how quickly or easily the Enutrof can get the purses. The goal should be for the Enutrof to have a steady income of useful resources, not necessarily the fastest possible. Snagging rare gear in purses is fun when it happens, but I think we've seen how out of hand that can get)
Score : 2454
As a dieing breed of enu mains, I would say i could live with new enu if Dhellers cooldown was lowered to 2 turns max, and that reaping's cooldown to 1 per turn. That would allow for some good flow but not hinder players on all their long cooldowns. 
Score : 15917
I honestly just think the Drheller could use a little more OOMPH as a 3 AP pet with a cooldown. The cooldown on the spell's only really a problem when toggling Drhellzerker, or if the Drheller gets caught by one of those attacks that could almost two-shot the Enu. 

Definitely agree with Reaping. I think the idea is to make it tricky to get optimal bagging potential, but in practice it just cripples effects that rely on the Broke state.
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