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Ouginak and "Broken" Armor Generation (Brawl)

By noahcrow - MEMBER - April 06, 2020, 09:00:09

For the sake of clarity, what I mean by "broken" when referring to ouginak's armor generation is that in my opinion, the armor generation values for brawl are way too generous for a spell that doesn't need a target on a class that can just as easily be a top tier damage dealer at the same time. I'll admit that most of the reason i bring it up is for balance in pvp, however, minor changes in the armor mechanic can balance for pvp and keep pve relatively unchanged. What is especially "broken" for the re-worked ouginak is they don't even need a target to build several thousand permanent armor each turn with brawl.  For a melee class this generally means you have a choice between staying close and having to deal with steadily stacking prey, or running away for a turn, letting the ougi stacking close to a third of their total hp in armor. On top of this, the armor gain doesn't rely on mastery, so brutality ouginaks, or tank ouginaks that don't have much mastery in single target, can build the same as any other ougi. I'm fine with ouginak being pretty much the way it is now, but I would like one of the following to be considered:
1. Require Brawl to be cast on an enemy to build armor (was this way before rework)
2. Adjust the values on armor gain (arguably this is one of the best self-armoring classes, because it can reach its max hp in armor faster than any other class typically, regardless of gear. On top of being an amazing DD i think this is a little "broken")
3. Make armor gain based on mastery, instead of a very generous flat value. Normally you have to choose between a balance of resists, and masteries to do all other stuff including armor gain. Since ouginak's armor doesn't need mastery, they could have the best from both worlds in regards to armor. 

5 -12
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Reactions 9
Score : -13

He is not even close to OP in PVE (just press D and watch how much of them here) and there will be never "balance" in 1v1 pvp in game with so much classes with clear "roles" mechanix (oh hi sram).
No need in an other gimped class, leave dog alone.
Wonna talk about must_have_in_every_party Feca?

6 -2
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Score : 333

i know that it will never be balanced in 1v1 pvp but if you could make a slight change so that running away and armoring wasnt such an easy option, wouldn't it barely affect pve at all? Also its well known feca is op but it's in a completely different role and will be reworked anyhow. As to the point that ougi isnt meta, i think its more because its not thought of as powerful a DD as iop, and balancing ougi brawl spell won't have much of an impact in that regard

4 -4
Score : 254

Hello,

being an Ouginak myself, I agree with saying that some classes are kind of "broken" in PVP as much as some are "broken" in PVE. But to be honest, the relative domination of one class over another is quite dependant on the classes themselves, and they really vary between PVP levels (Elios dominate 110, Ecas dominate 140, and classes like Iop are quite good at higher level).

Lets speak of lvl 80: Ougis, Srams and Ecaflips are dominant classes and the ones you see more often. All of them share one characteristic that sums up all their shielding, healing and mobility capacity: sustainability. That's what make a class great for pvp.
Yet, each of them has their counter, which often people who rush into complaint for losses forget to consider and forget to use as a motivation to grow stronger in game. Most of the best players you see at battlefields, at least at the level ranges I attend, even use multiple copies of their relics and epics so they can choose the sublimation to use on their enemies. That's smart! Expensive, but smart.

Since people have money to spend, as I see often double epic/relic subli even at lvl 80, i would give here a little suggestion. If Ougi's shield is the worst thing around at battlefields, why I never see smashell rune being used?

I see people complaining about Ougi being broken all the time, but usually they are facing an opponent that is simply better geared, and the disparity between newbies and better geared people is another difficulty people endure in PVP scenario (often being bullied) and that would deserve some discussion, but it's not the topic of this thread.
But the other thing I've noticed, is that those players they lack creativity.

Another thing is that I never see people considering Ougi's mechanics when they face them, doing error's they could have easily avoided with a little bit more experience. And, surprise surprise, those who do can easily stall Ougi.



Wish you best luck on your PVPs,
Jazz

6 0
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Score : 333

you make some really good points here, the problem that i have is for ougi vs any melee basically they don't have to be well geared to kite and stack ridiculous armor. You're point about smashell is also pretty good but in the rock-paper-scissors id rather not get a rune specifically used vs a couple of classes and put myself at a disadvantage vs any of the others

1 -6
Score : 372

Let me guess. You have recently received it ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) from an Ouginak and now you're writing a QQ post because ohmygosh, those ougis are soooo OP, cant beat dem, nerf plz.

Sorry. I had some spare bottle of venom just lying about and felt like making use of it.

Edit: If you play an Ougi yourself, why are you complaining? Enjoy being overpowered.

5 -3
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Score : 333

no actually, i havent fought one recently, but ive seen what they can do vs others. I use an ougi myself. Jazz made some very good points.

Re to edit: I think I will put on some brutality pvp sets for the merge, if only to prove a point (i cant find you on any pvp ladder o.o)

1 -6
Score : 1491

:^)

Trolling aside, honestly the ability is really good for PvP but that's about it. The game has never really been balanced for PvP let alone 1v1, and even if they did, all of your suggestions don't make sense.
1. Requiring it to be used on an enemy

  • Was not how it used to be before rework
  • Makes more sense for it to require "any target" so that there's more gameplay involved ie. more interaction with Bow Wow or other allies. Requiring it to be an enemy will remove any options the Ouginak has and they will be forced to just gun down their opponent every turn no matter what, which removes gameplay.
2. Adjusting the armor value
  • It's not really that much armor. You get 1500 per cast (or 1950 with Raiding) and that's assuming you have full fury. That's pitiful for 4 AP compared to what other classes can do in terms of armor.
  • Makes more sense to cap the armor generation at lets say, 50% of the ouginak's max HP instead of 100%
3. Make the armor based on mastery
  • Doing this would likely buff the spell similarly to how Pandawa's Six Roses is still extremely good in 1v1 even if you're in a brutality build, and then the ST version would be even harder to get through.
  • All armor spells need to have their mastery scaling removed since it doesn't make sense for you to be rewarded "defensively" for your "offensive" stats.

Also you need to think about every other class that can do similar things. Take masq for example. They can run away and full heal, which is a very similar concept. Sacrier can run away and build flame return and armor. Rogues can run away and build bombs. Pandawa can run away and regenerate all it's WP and heal. Even Iop can run away and build some armor with defensive stance on the standard. Osamodas can run away and let their summon hit you. Sadida can run away and stack a ton of dolls around you. etc.
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Score : 333

     I'll address your points from beginning to end. By "trolling aside" idk what you mean exactly but anyhow.. Yes, i think the ability is much better for pvp than pve, and the game has never been balanced for pvp. However, if adding restrictions  barely affects pve at all, they could easily put some that keep it balanced for both. That seems like better overall game design, to me. 
     1. requiring it to be used on an enemy:
This definately WAS how it used to be before rework. I played ouginak extensively before rework, the only way around this was to take raiding passive converting health steal to armor gain, and pulling out a bone or something to use it on. This was a much more restricted version of what ougis have now, but still overpowered in some situations. If you can gain armor on any target, not just enemies, that's fine imo, it at least adds much better restrictions than being able to use on an empty space. (though on second thought, using on puppy would be too easy)
     2. Adjusting armor value... 1950 per cast is not pitiful.. this is outdone by only.. panda and feca, two of the main tanking classes. Pandas armor isnt permanent, however, and feca is getting reworked anyhow. Sacrier has a big cool down on its major armor spell, so it doesn't compete in this regard. I understand that there are restrictions based on WP and rage, but despite that i feel like armor is a little high *given* that they currently don't need a target. The 4 ap cost doesnt really matter if you are running away and another melee class cant engage, at that point armor gain per turn is more relevant. 
~~"Makes more sense to cap the armor generation at lets say, 50% of the ouginak's max HP instead of 100%" - Great, fantastic suggestion (no sarcasm)
     3. I admit my idea here needs some work, the premise is that imo, brutality ouginak is the meta in damage dealing, if an ougi decides to go this route, i think its fair they forgo a little armor gain from Brawl, which is a ST spell.. while six roses is still great on brutality panda, at least they lose a little bit due to mastery devoted to AOE. 
~~"All armor spells need to have their mastery scaling removed since it doesn't make sense for you to be rewarded 'defensively' for your 'offensive' stats" -this is an interesting idea, i don't consider mastery to be a purely 'offensive' stat. The fact that it can be used for both offense and defensive purposes doesn't mean that resists aren't important. Basing armor gain on mastery instead of a base value has the benefit of preventing people to go balls-out building for resists and being unpunished in armor gain, potentially being unkillable. Thankfully this hasn't been exploited much yet, to my knowledge. Regardless, the vast majority of sustain spells in the game are based on mastery, the second probably being max hp. 

     Brutality ouginak overall is under alot of people's radar as a viable burst damage class, which competes with iop, but has much better tanking, sustain, and mobility imo. I don't think this will last forever. While other classes have options that let them run away and help them swing the fight in their favor, not many classes have the option to run away and build a permanent bonus like ouginak, and ouginak can heal too. Given that ougi is a viable instant DD, i don't think it makes sense to compare them to build-up classes as rogue and sadida in this regard. 

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