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Feedback of the new Eliotrope: Changes that are needed right now

By Okarin#3581 - MEMBER - September 22, 2021, 14:46:34
AnkaTracker

After 1.73 hit live, I went to check my Eliotrope, and well, I did not find it very good. So, seing that Xelors are getting attention to their requests after their rework, I think that if we do a feedback topic with celerity, we could get some changes faster.

Most of the problems right now, are related to Calm state, since Exalted is playing in a way that does not depend on Calm.


Eliotropes on 1.73: What went wrong?

Lets first bring some quotes from the patch notes here:

  • Several spells have been reworked so as to have a more consistent and varied kit. In particular, the Calm – Support role has improved.
  • Limits on the number of uses per target or turn have been added to spells. This is an essential change so that characters will be forced to use several options and therefore required to adapt and make different decisions more often.
  • Since the Portal and Exaltation spells can be seen as mandatory, they have been added to the third spell bar at the start of fights. In addition, new non-elemental spells have been created.
  • Passives have been reworked to match the new passive model:
  • Several new passives (between 15 and 20, depending on the class).
  • Passives are aimed at changing the direction, the way of playing the character.
  • Passives have only one level and are unlocked up to level 100.
  • Passives no longer vary the effects of optional spells.

The new Eliotrope came with a promise: Bring more passives that change their gameplay, and make other roles, with emphasis on support, and, well... That did not really happened here. What we got was some Actives that you could say that are to support allies(Wakfu Shield, Barrier) and a passive to heal(Transitory), but, is that really enough? Enough to compete with Eniripsas, Sadidas, Masqueraiders? Not even on a meta level, but just exert this function at all(Healer/Support)? 

Calm State got such a huge nerf on this patch, that I will say, yet again, as I said before: It feels more of a punishment then an actual mode on it's own. Calm has many effects, many that none will use, because they are not good. 


What went well?

Yes, maybe the update was not perfect, but we got some new things: Barrier and Wakfu shield, it's a start to the Eliotrope Support era(my dream). 

Ardent Aegis, even if doesn't comtemplate Close Combat builds, it's really a fresh adition to the deck, if this gets some kind of refund when used on an empty cell, this would be the icing on the cake.

Portal and Exalted on third bar was necessary, since they are core spells. Also, control is not needed anymore.

Centric Point is ok, it works as a positioning tool, and helps Exalted to recover WP. 


Calm Vs Exalted:

Yes, I know, both have different roles in the Eliotrope gameplay, but we can still compair then, and see how fair it is the effects of each, and the prices you have to pay for certain spells:

First, lets talk about Bonuses and penalties. I will use the values with Effervescence, since I don't think people will run Eliotropes without this.

Calm:
  • 100 Elemental Resistance (Effervescence)
  • -10% damage inflicted (Effervescence)
  • The Eliotrope regenerates 3 WP at the end of the turn, only if they started their turn in calm mode

Exalted:
  • 50% Damage inflicted(20% comes from Effervescence)
  • -50 Elemental Resistance(Effervescence)

Both effects seem fine. Calm increases your resistance at the cost of your damage, and Exalted increases your damage at the cost of resistance.

Now lets check spells:

Wakmeha:
  • On both: Same base damage.
  • Effects on Calm: -2PA from the target.
  • Effects on Exalted: Target of this spell gets its Armor penetraded and loses the same amount of armor.

Not very useful effect on Calm here, -2PA is not that interesting, it does not contribute to an support role, nor does it to Calm in general.

Flood:
  • On both: No line of sight needed.
  • Effects on Calm: Heal the caster, switch places with the target.
  • Effects on Exalted: Does damage.

Very useful spell, with a good effect on both modes. Calm mode I think gets an edge here, since its pretty useful to move around.

Whirlwind:
  • On both: Can only be used on a Portal.
  • Effects on Calm: Pushes back 2 cells.
  • Effects on Exalted: Area-of-effect damage around the portal.

I find this iteraction good overall. Calm gets a positioning tool, Exalted a new way to damage in area. 

Clash:
  • On both: Does damage in an area.
  • Effects on Calm: The area is bigger.
  • Effects on Exalted: The area is small, +1% damage per 2% of caster's missing HP.

The effect on Calm is useless, since Calm is not supposed to be playing a damage role. Effect on Exalted is fine.

Siphon:
  • Effects on Calm: Pushes back 1 cell.
  • Effects on Exalted: Does damage.

Another positioning tool for Calm, and I don't think it's bad.

Unleashed Blade:
  • Effects on both: Does damage, if targeted on a portal, consumes it.
  • Effects on Calm: If the target is on a Portal: -4 Range.
  • Effects on Exalted: If the target is on a Portal: Does a higher base damage.

The effect on Exalted is fine, but the effect on Calm is really bad, if we check the cost. A portal, without any passive will cost 2PA, the portal have to be on the enemy, and the spell cost is 5PA. Not very fair to Calm here.

Now, again, I will quote the patch notes:
  • Several spells have been reworked so as to have a more consistent and varied kit. In particular, the Calm – Support role has improved.

Again, it did improve, since we got Wakfu Shield, Barrier and a passive to heal, but overall, Calm will still be used only at the end of a Exalted turn, after you did damage, ,just to get more resistance to take less damage. 

Since it will be used like that, what is the point of bringing the support role up? I think Calm could get more buffs on it's support role, so it gets more distinguished from Exalted.


Let's talk about the new Passives and Actives:

Reminiscence:
It's a start, the effect can work, but right now, it's not deck slot material. How can this work? Make it give the Eliotrope 2 WP per portal used, and when an ally uses a portal, any spell that moves a portal won't cost anything if they do this.

I will give an edit here. Reminiscence can work really well with the regeneration of Calm Eliotropes. If Calm gets some buffs, this will be very useful.

Final Shield:
This should work only when the Eliotrope is Calm, since I don't think any Eliotrope would run this while using Exalted, since the main function of Exalted is damage. This is the perfect start to make passives that make Calm state interesting. Increase Shield given to allies by 30%, and everytime the Elio gives shield to allies, give them -15% Damage Received in Close Combat.

Porta(i)l:
If you are gonna limit Eliotrope that much, you should at least give something worth it. Instead of stealing Health, maybe spells cast throught a portal could give Eliotrope Armor, since this would match way better the Berserk gameplay. Maybe even give something different here, if the Eliotrope Heals an ally throught a portal, half the value is converted to armor(Yes, I know Eliotropes don't have any heal available yet, but this can change).

Spacetime: 
Solid passive, maybe just give the elio a buff to it's damage throught portals? Or increase a turn on it's duration? Other than that, nothing to add here.

Trepidation
I hate this passives, but it works. Nothing to add here.

White Dimension:
It works already, I think this could be better with changes on other passives and elemental spells.

Interstellar:
I don't know how to feel about this actually. It works, but I hate the drawback. Will check this another time.

Effervescence:
It works, but you could give a little more to Calm. Make it increase Heals/Shield given by 15%.

Portal Disciple
Cool passive, but can be better. Make a debuff on enemies that get hit by the portal effect: Your next spell that cost less than 4PA won't consume WP if you are Exalted.

Celestial Portal:
It works already, but maybe increase Heals/Shields that pass throught a portal by 15% would be nice to Calm Eliotropes.

Resilience
It's good, but maybe give the Eliotrope some Lock and Resistance, or maybe reduce damage taken on Melee, to help him? Since this will be used for damage, no one is going to damage while Calm.
 
Transitory:
This passive is bad, not deck slot material right here. How can this work? Make it give Shield to allies that uses a portal, and make it give a buff that increases Heals/Shield received by the allies. Also, this could give the player a PM back, but that's not really that important

Fury:
A little Edit over here: If Calm support is suposed to be a thing on it's own, then this passive already work as it is, to Exalted Eliotropes, a role to damage, even if the -resistance effect is a little too much. I still don't like it.

I don't like this. It's bland, and with so many debuffs to Eliotropes Resistance, he will die as soon as this procs. Make this a little more interactive: 
Every spell that does damage in Calm state will give a buff to the Eliotrope: 
Enraged:
  • Every time the Eliotrope cast a spell that does damage on Calm state: PA used * 2 = Level of Enraged
  • Every Level of Enraged gives 2% final damage to the Eliotrope, and it's max level is 25.
  • Enraged does not have a duration when you are Calm, but this damage does not work on this mode.
  • As soon as you enter Exalted: You consume the Enraged, that turns into Fury, and gives the damage bonus for this turn.

This would be way better than what we got I think, not a bland bonus, an actual passive that incentivizes you to play your turn while Calm, and can also be used to pass an entire turn on Calm to recover WP. This would work nicely.

Medium:
This is the old Flood effect. Just remove it already, a passive that niche should not get a slot on here. We should focus on something better.

Trapster:
This is the worst passive yet. Punishing your whole team for a single spell to inflict bonus damage. Just make this a bland effect already. Don't overcomplicate things. Make Eliotropes do 15% less frontal damage, but 15% more back damage, but DON'T PUNISH THE WHOLE TEAM. Maybe you could even make spells that pass throught a portal that hit the enemy fron behind, make him change its direction to the portal.

I will do a quick edit here, and won't erase my old comment on this. This could work better if you just removed the Rear Resistance that is given to enemies, that should not be needed here.

Novice Sword
I don't like it, but it works.


How can we make Calm State attractive to players?

Since the premise of Calm state is to play a supportive role, let's propose changes that actually do that:
  • Make Flood heal allies
  • Make Pulsation heal allies
  • Increase the armor given by Therapy and change its cost to AP
  • Make Flood heal in Aoe when cast on a portal
  • Make Barrier give armor to allies
  • Make Prevention give armor(Will keep Ressurection effect if used on dead allies)
  • Make Torrential Flux give armor or heal(or both)
  • Make Ardent Aegis give armor to allies

With this changes, you would be able to actually play a support role with Eliotropes. But I don't think Calm should only do that. You should be able to use Calm to prepare your Exalted turns. I propose some changes that could help balance this better:

Calm could give mobs Wakfu Mark to mobs, and this could stack. When you use a spell on Exalted, you would not waste WP, and instead, consume the mark. Maybe this could be an effect from Wakmeha and Ethereal burst, since I don't think AP removal is that interesting(talking about PVE here), and a new effect to Ethereal Burst would be good.

Make the Wakfu Mark be only consumable by spells that cost less than 4AP, and after consumed, the enemy could take 10% more damage that turn. That would already help give Eliotropes more variation, since right now, I don't think many Eliotropes will use low cost spells while Exalted.

Exalted could get a new effect: Every time an Wakfu Mark is consumed, they will gain two stacks of Wakfu Fragment, and every time they consume a WP, he will get one. This could stack until a certain point, and when the Eliotrope goes back to Calm State, he could gain a buff, maybe more resistance, double the WP regen, and his next Wakmeha/Ethereal Burst cast would cost nothing.

If Calm was made to be a state on it's own, instead of making this changes(giving it a role to start your exalted), just make it work on it's own, giving it more effects to work it, effects that can help allies directly, just like Armor/Heals(It does not need to be both, it does not even need to be on the level of the main Healers of the game).

Again, that is just my opinion here. I just think that Calm should be checked again, because this could really tag along a new way to play Eliotrope that is not damage, and that would be pretty nice.
 
8 -2
First Ankama intervention

Hi, just your average GD passing by.

I do appreciate you guys taking time to analyze what were the successes and the improvement areas of the class.

I don't think I'll have a lot of time to take care of this "soon", but rest assured that if changes need to happen, they will.

Siu.

See message in context
Reactions 27
Score : 105

I think it's really impressive that in less than 24 hours after the update... you managed to fix your elios gear, learn elios new abilitys, test them all, and then write this essay. Took me a day just to fix the control/range on mine, i've barely gotten to test it but his burst turn is looking good. At the moment my only suggestion for elio is that no one listens to you about it, because you obviously have not even bothered to take the time to test it.

 

Okarin#3581|2021-09-22 16:14:20
Please, don't be rude, if you have feedback and can contribute to the topic, do it.
 
 


That was my feedback, it was just blunt and not in your favor. I think it's rude that you expect ankama to fire their elio designer and hire you cause you read the beta logs and didn't like the way elio looked when you logged in. Someone put a lot of time into developing elio and for you to suggest all these changes without properly testing it in real game scenarios is no benefit to them or the community.

Your ignorance about trapster really shows that you have not actually tested elio . You can use the earthy spelly from the side, then get behind a target, put portals up, and pop an unleashed blade or the portal explosion spell. It doesn't matter if they get 100 rear resist cause they just got obliterated. Not great for bosses, but it's likely to see some use.

Transitory heals 10% of max hp for going through a portal. I just swapped this passive in for a no healer 3 stelle blightogre run it was clutch af. Not only keeps xelor alive but tops dps off for carnage. Almost any encounter where you are doing portal shenanigans this passive can be useful. What do you say about it?

"Transitory:
This passive is bad, not deck slot material right here. How can this work? "

Wakmeha takes ap, no good you want something else. Unleashed blade takes range, no good you want something else. Portal disciple takes mp, that's not good enough either you want it to do some random trivial wp debuff effect.

Sorry but at the risk of sounding rude, I have to double down on my suggestion that no one listen to you until you have a chance to properly explore the class.
5 -9
Score : 1135

What? This is a new update, but has been on beta, so everyone could test it. I've been testing and checking since every changelog, and giving my feedback.

https://www.wakfu.com/en/forum/251-feedback/241345-beta-1-73-changelog-5-august
https://www.wakfu.com/en/forum/251-feedback/241399-beta-1-73-changelog-19-august
https://www.wakfu.com/en/forum/251-feedback/241424-beta-1-73-changelog-26-august
https://www.wakfu.com/en/forum/251-feedback/241455-beta-1-73-changelog-10-september
https://www.wakfu.com/en/forum/251-feedback/241335-1-73-balancing-eliotrope

Many feedbacks where not heard, and many things said on the patch notes where not true. 

  • Several spells have been reworked so as to have a more consistent and varied kit. In particular, the Calm – Support role has improved.

Did not happen. Support role was barelly improved on this update.
-
  • Limits on the number of uses per target or turn have been added to spells. This is an essential change so that characters will be forced to use several options and therefore required to adapt and make different decisions more often.

Again, this does not matter, since using low cost spells while Exalted would just waste your WP.
-
  • Passives are aimed at changing the direction, the way of playing the character.

Some passives won't be used, since they have little to no direct impact to your gameplay, or punish your whole team(TRAPSTER).

Please, don't be rude, if you have feedback and can contribute to the topic, do it.
 
5 0
Score : 1135

 

Vilmer#7758|2021-09-22 23:14:10
That was my feedback, it was just blunt and not in your favor. I think it's rude that you expect ankama to fire their elio designer and hire you cause you read the beta logs and didn't like the way elio looked when you logged in. Someone put a lot of time into developing elio and for you to suggest all these changes without properly testing it in real game scenarios is no benefit to them or the community.
 


That was not what I said. I'm not asking for anyone to fire the Eliotrope designer, don't put words in my mouth. Theres no mistake in a player write a feedback on the forum, that's not a bad thing.
Vilmer#7758|2021-09-22 23:14:10

Your ignorance about trapster really shows that you have not actually tested elio . You can use the earthy spelly from the side, then get behind a target, put portals up, and pop an unleashed blade or the portal explosion spell. It doesn't matter if they get 100 rear resist cause they just got obliterated. Not great for bosses, but it's likely to see some use.
 


That does not make it any better that punishes your whole team.

Vilmer#7758|2021-09-22 23:14:10
Transitory heals 10% of max hp for going through a portal. I just swapped this passive in for a no healer 3 stelle blightogre run it was clutch af. Not only keeps xelor alive but tops dps off for carnage. Almost any encounter where you are doing portal shenanigans this passive can be useful. What do you say about it?

"Transitory:
This passive is bad, not deck slot material right here. How can this work? "
 


Again, that says nothing about it. It's still too little, when in a team of 6 people, you will have a dedicated healer, why would you take that?

​​​​​​​
Vilmer#7758|2021-09-22 23:14:10
Wakmeha takes ap, no good you want something else. Unleashed blade takes range, no good you want something else. Portal disciple takes mp, that's not good enough either you want it to do some random trivial wp debuff effect.

Sorry but at the risk of sounding rude, I have to double down on my suggestion that no one listen to you until you have a chance to properly explore the class.


Wakmeha, Unleashed Blade and many other Calm effects won't be used, and won't be missed if they removed. Do you think it's fair to waste a Portal and 5PA to take -4 range, while on Exalted, you could do the same thing, but instead, do more damage? Do you think people will use this? I don't want some "trivial wp debuff effect", I want something that works, that makes me want to use the spell, to pay that cost.

Are people compeled to stay on Calm, to use it at all? That's the question I want to ask you. Do you think support Eliotrope really improved? Do you think Calm state improved on this update? I've pointed out many things on why this did not happen on the topic, and you did not answer that. 

Yes, Eliotrope can still do damage, but is this better than last update? Is this what we want as the FINAL version of Eliotrope? A version that most likelly will run the same deck, same combo, over and over again?
3 0
Score : 749

Hey guys, discussing the class overhaul is great, but no reason to get agitated over it, as it won't lead to anything productive. This is definitely not the final version of the overhaul and the devs do care about player feedback and class performance, as evidenced by the multiple class changes they've been putting out even for classes that were revamped months ago.

Overall from the point of view of a distance/berserk elio the revamp turned out mostly positive for me. Yeah we have to burn portals for WP and unlocking ourselves in exalted is slightly more annoying now, but our build options are clearly a lot more diverse (for a pure DPT role at least) and so far the damage feels about the same, if not higher in certain situations. We have a lot of new toys to play with: there's the new Ardent Aegis, the new Tempest, some very unique passives like Space and Time, which I personally like very much, even the 2 AP spells like Whirlwind and Pulsation ended up worth using in exalted because of their high ratios (you can always use your WP on bigger spells or utility beforehand so the WP isn't wasted). Overall there's a lot to like in this update and playing elio has been a lot more satisfying for me than the Wakmeha/Flood/Clash spam we had previously.

That being said I somewhat agree with OP that a more support oriented elio build could use a bit of polishing to be truly viable. While I don't believe we're designed to be competing with Eni/Masq/Sadi for the spot of a pure support, staying in calm does feel a bit lackluster on the utility side, even with the addition of the new active abilities. Right now with the 3 WP we get per turn in calm we can cast a single Wakfu Shield and use a Barrier or Time Breach on an ally and once we're out of WP our support options are reduced to Flood, the push/pull spells and placing/repositioning Portals. Whether this is a sufficient amount of utility is ultimately for the devs to decide, but to me it appears just a little short. As for the WP regeneration in calm, I'm still not fully sure how to feel about it, but I understand why it works the way it does (if the condition to remain in calm for a turn didn't exist the WP would be free for most dpt builds). Maybe an improvement to the WP regeneration passive will be enough.

Suggestion:
I still believe that a simple change like moving the secondary effect of Time Breach to its own separate spell, would go a long way to solidify our role as a team positioner. Obviously it has to only be usable in calm and it could cost 3-4 AP, which combined with the cost of an on demand Portal (or Pulsation) would put it roughly in line with other similar effects like Avalanche and Principio Valere (water rune).

TLDR: Don't be disheartened, the new elio has a lot of good things going for it and should only get better from here. Its dpt builds are significantly more diverse than before and its support role is decent, but a bit lackluster, so it could use a bit of polishing.

2 0
Score : 1135

I quite like the idea to give Time Breach secondary effect an propper spell slot.

I believe that they could at least make Ardent Aegis give some armor to allies, and make some passives give more stats to support(like % armor given), but yeah, I don't believe they should be on par with the level of heal/armor given by Masqs, Sads and Enis, but they should at least be a viable option(not meta, but at least viable).

Seeing that this update turned Exalted so self sufficient, made Calm look really bad. Not that before it was good, but right now, I enphasize this: no one is going to use this effects right now. 

I'm actually pretty confident that they will adress this, since I've seen many people that play Xelor, that had they feedbacks heard. Not only Xelors, also Iops and even Cras got a nerf reverted(nerfs from 1.73).

We are really heading on a good direction, and I agree with you, this can only get better.

2 0
Score : 105

 

Okarin#3581|2021-09-23 04:03:22
Are people compeled to stay on Calm, to use it at all? That's the question I want to ask you. Do you think support Eliotrope really improved? Do you think Calm state improved on this update? I've pointed out many things on why this did not happen on the topic, and you did not answer that. 

 


I didn't answer that because I am still running encounters and learning the class better. The question you seem to be asking is whether or not they buffed elio support so much that you can justify bringing an elio that is 14/8, full support, stacked with resist, and never doing dps. I would have to say no, and it does not seem like that is ankamas intention with the class.

I might be wrong on this, but to me the main thing that has changed with the calm/exalted state is that there is no longer a benefit to switching into exalted state. For elios that position first turn and prep for second turn burst, it means they can go exalted first turn to prepare to go calm after the second turn burst when they are likely to be exposed or want to proc resilience for a third turn burst. There is no longer a drawback to doing this other than not regenerating wp first turn. This does not fit in at all with your full support elio dream and it just seems like you and the developers have completely different ideas for the class. But! Maybe I am wrong, I am still learning it.
 
2 -4
Score : 2285

Too low damage.
There's nothing behind eliotrope as a damager type class now.
Support role is also really bad.

4 0
Score : 2088

while i appreciate the idea of making support elio more viable, the solutions you presented still does not seem appealing to me since they are all focused on heal/armor/positioning and we have other characters that does the job already. and will probably still be better because elio certainly won't beat their numbers or he'll tip the balance and became too strong. so I don't think people would use it still as a support [heal/armor] because other character just does the job better. plus if they going to increase his support capabilities, i can almost guarantee the damaging aspect is gonna get hit even further to compensate. damage role for eliotrope now is just.. bad, further nerve would just kill the class completely.

now for my opinions on the things you mentioned

-i agree that calm state right now is a mess. it doesn't really provide anything of value. and nothing real appealing to use as you say. 

-better passive for supporting role is indeed needed to make it work as a support if thats the direction they are going for

spells

-ardent aegis:  it doesn't really help melee, but i don't really see how it can help distance either, or dd role in general. the only thing it goes well with is to use it with portal disciple passive plus torrential flux since those 2 spell are the only one that does indirect damage.  but then again i don't see why anyone would do make an indirect damage elio with just this to work with, feca glyph is much better.

-centric point: is nice, but i'd suggest maybe a change for it to not destroy portal, or add a passive that cause the portal to not get destroyed, possibly increase/decrease/change the area to wrath aoe size, whatever fits.

-wakmeha: -ap is fine as it is in calm. i still don't like the change from extra damage to -armor on exalted. its just way weaker and what used to be a main damage tool for dd now is just.. weak.
-flood: pretty much just the old flood effect without the +ap. idk why they are removing all ap buffs on chars other than xelor but it would be nice to bring it back

-whirliwind: its ok i suppose

-clash: either give it some usefulness on calm, or revert/increase the cast limit for dd

-siphon: its a bad downgrade from the old one imo. u can use the old siphon effect for interesting scenarios like removing Hagen daz boss immunity or push entity several time while also doing damage simultaneously. now its just a bland push 1 tile spell. might as well give it the old effect back

-unleashed blade: imagine the amount of ap you need just to give this -4 range debuff.  i mean the effect itself is ok ish, i guess?  but really. 2ap portal, 5ap ardent? [cant use pulsation to move portal on enemy. u either gotta set it up first with other character or use ardent], 5ap cast, not to mention the low range. thats 12 ap.. other stuff have this ap ratio problems as well

now, some other spells you didn't mention

-pulsation: i despise this cast limit. i think it goes against the very principle and core /lore/existence of eliotrope. i don't care if it doesn't even deal any damage. maybe let it be able to be placed right on top of the tile an enemy is currently standing on. remove the cast limit so its a spell thats just used for positioning.  heck put this on the third bar. can guarantee not a single elio in the game does not use this spell on every deck.

-deafening target: increase the range on this thing, or let it be able to cast trough portal but it becomes ST instead of area. idk, why the limitation anyway where other characters like sadi/enu can remove mp effectively already from half across the map. this is unnecessary but if you wanna improve the support aspect then might as well.

-hiding: might as well change the effect for something useful. i don't think elio needs this life steal spell. maybe steal armor, maybe steal damage inflicted. whatever thats actually useful.

passive/actives

Reminiscence: in a support scenario you'd want portal as a great mobility tool to help characters such as melee, or to avoid instant dead scenarios from either crazy high damage/ insta ko mechanics. limiting its use to just 1 time kinda defeats the purpose of it?  only 3 spells use WP consumption and those are active spell for supporting purpose. u can already regen 3wp in calm. i don't see this as a useful passive either for support or dd. the malus for damage dealer is just to big since it kills the effectiveness of portal and the wp regen is too low.

Final Shield: i can see this used for some niche tank elio build, but it certainly need some help. combine this with barrier and u get 35% damage reduction melee, its kinda nice ain't it? the 2wp just doesn't do much for support elio imo, and its utterly useless for damage role.

Porta(i)l: i don't get why people would want to use this thing. its useless for berserk, tank role wont heal for much, the constraint on needing portal, damage dealers wont benefit much with the 2 portal constraint. everything about this passive just doesn't work in my opinion and it needs to be changed entirely

Spacetime: i'm not sure how useful this passive is to be honest. as a positioner, i think making your portal disappear in 2 turn is kinda counter productive since you have to re spawn and re position them. as a damage dealer? well..  same thing plus damage is very weak now overall. and i wouldn't take this passive for potential tempest burst or something since other passives are just more useful

Trepidation: its a fine passive for berserk. the -fow is argue able but its miles better than cutting your legs off with half mp

White Dimension: i'm struggling to see the use of this passive to be honest. if you really want to maximize your role as damager, you'd play berserk elio. as of now you cant play elio in close range as damage dealer. the -res is way too much. its useless for distance damage role.

Interstellar: its really slow, i'm not sure if the fd bonus is adequate for the amount of turns and preparation it needs to set up. its all about speed for leaderboards these days. but i can see it sorta works.

Effervescence: could get some help, but it works as it is

Portal Disciple: your suggestion is reasonable i suppose. however as it is now? i don't see why people would use this. elio isn't a indirect damage dealer, and the effect is too conditional. instead of having enemy directly on top of portal. maybe make it an area surrounding portal.

Celestial Portal: i don't think any change is necessary. its an intended to be a damage dealer passive. it'd be nice if it gets additional effect for calm, but if that's gonna cost its effectiveness for damage role, then i do not want that happening.

Resilience: your suggestion is good enough. it works with aoe melee bruta builds with portal disciple + white dimension + tremblor i guess. but yea.. berserk in melee now is incredibly risky, if you don't use berserk, you're not going full damage potential. i think melee elio works and its the least affected role from this update but would be nice to get some more help/adjustment.

Transitory: it's debate able for its usefulness. other char have to actually travel with the portal. long distance travel gives them malus. only upside is you don't need to spend more ap since it passively heal whoever travels with portal, but yea it kills any chance of playing with berserk char. and its not really deck worthy material as you said.

Fury: as you said, its fair for calm. but the -res for damage role is way too much. half your hp missing is already a huge demerit and risk you take by playing berserk. all these -res are just gross
your proposal on enraged is interesting, not sure its needed but we'll see.

Medium: i think its a fine passive. combine this with interstellar and you can still do some damage early turn, and overall still works for mid range - high range elio.

Trapster: its just plain bad passive as you said. the demerit in no way will ever be worth using, not to mention how conditional it is and the need for prior set up before doing damage. the scenario vilmer#7758 is highly situational and just because it can see "some use" doesn't mean its a good passive. old enthusiasm passive/ wakfu imprint is way better than this.

Novice Sword: i don't like it. remove the -range restriction then maybe its decent. 

How can we make Calm State attractive to players?

while your suggestion on wakfu mark and wakfu fragment are interesting and worth noting [it's really nice i like it], i think all the other effects need some serious improvements as they all are just focused on either healing or armor. as i said in the beginning of the post, we have characters that does these effectively already. making elio do this on par or better than them, would harm all those other supports as elio portal will bring a major advantage. and i don't think elio should be focused on healing or armor as its base supporting role/capabilities. instead i'd much prefer if elio is more focused on buffs/debuffs/status conditions. what examples can i give for its possible support improvement?

- critical failure, like the one from those candy/calamar mob effect [way too strong probably but its an example]

- increase or decrease Fow

- lower or give/increase heal resistance. [works great for dungeon like tropike, riktus, forbidden city, blightopard, etc i suppose. mobs don't have heal resist, if elio can give them that, that'd be great]

- incurable.  now elio already have this now, but i'd suggest please consider letting incurable be stack able. as of now people would just use rogue for its 100% incurable and burst capability, but i think it would be great if other classes can reach that, and sacrificing your ap/damage to cast it multiple time make that happen feels like a fair trade off. maybe reduce the amount for second or third cast. whatever works as long as its stack able

- more teleport instead of push.  now, this isn't exactly necessary but i think for a class that focuses on instant mobility [eg portal] and its theme around it, i think its more appropriate for this class to have flexible teleporting capabilities rather than just push/pulls. it would instantly make this class way better as a positioning character. an example? something like sram trap where if mob goes to portal he's teleported to another furthest one. 

- see my suggestion on centric point above ^^^ + if centric point can be something like a black hole that pulls entity close to portal passively, i think it'd be really great, after a few turn active only then i think its fine to let the portal be destroyed/vanish. add a passive for it maybe.

- a way to better regen WP, or one of the spell to give wp like old pulsation. let it be used on ally as well and it'd be even better

- minus or steal WP

- low chance to stun enemy [like the gobball chief stun, probably too strong as well] 

- make entitiy vision goes dark / cant see any other entity on the map, only the terrain for 1 turn

- make entitiy gets confused state. (basically same concept as previous one ^ but instead they have a chance to miss on landing their attack

- gives chars/ally an increased chance to actually dodge an attack from enemy. maybe once per turn.  [like the dodge mechanic on final fantasy tactics]

- better ap ratio for supporting spells

- better -range

- ap/mp buff on ally

- minus / plus crit chance 

- minus / plus block chance

- add passive that remove long distance travel malus but damages characters that travels with it

- etc.

many possibilities, a lot of things can be implemented. just gotta find the right set of kits, creativity, and balance. I hated how elio get to this point. i hate how its semi forced to be a supporting role. but if thats the direction devs wanna take, please put more thoughts and don't only go half way on every front. that just cause the class to suffer. just breaking apart and moving pieces of previous kit is not good enough. overall i'm not satisfied with the current state of elio. but i'm really trying to give this an open minded point of view and an objective opinion that'll be beneficial for everyone involved. hopefully more people and devs take a look at this thread for further discussion and possible improvements.

2 -1
Score : 1135
  • while i appreciate the idea of making support elio more viable, the solutions you presented still does not seem appealing to me since they are all focused on heal/armor/positioning and we have other characters that does the job already. and will probably still be better because elio certainly won't beat their numbers or he'll tip the balance and became too strong.

Yes, thats exactly what I think will happen. If given too much, he will probably outshine most options, too little, and he won't be one. Maybe just give him some way to Armor allies, not much, so he will at least have something more to bring to the table(not just Wakfu Shield).

I was thinking about Pulsation and Ardent Aegis, since they don't have an actual effect on Calm, maybe the effect could be the refund when used on an empty cell, instead of giving to Calm and Exalted, make this effect be exclusive to Calm, so it gives more to their kit. 

They could even change the cast limit when doing this.
1 0

Hi, just your average GD passing by.

I do appreciate you guys taking time to analyze what were the successes and the improvement areas of the class.

I don't think I'll have a lot of time to take care of this "soon", but rest assured that if changes need to happen, they will.

Siu.

Score : 153

Testing stuff still ,i don't believe i have a strong opinion on revamp yet.However the new active neutral spells seem to be pretty bad for a dd elio.

Not a fan of whirlwind being "cast on portal" only and not being able to cast it through portals.

Tempest destroying all the portals while replicating the aoe on them doesn't seem like a good payoff due to being really hard to actually setup a decent aoe unless the portals are stacked near a single enemy.

In general i get that the idea of destroying portals for wp is interesting on paper,but it feels pretty bad to play due to having to retroactively "lose" 2 ap or more that you used for the portal and the positioning of it.

Centric point destroying the portal doesn't feel that great either,it could've been a way to setup the new whirlwind or tempest but instead it just destroys the portal so might as well use mass charm if i want to setup an aoe or help a character.

The new ardent aegis is a great addition despite its steep cost of 5ap and low damage imho.

The new wakmeha effect isn't that great due to not that many mobs having armor.

One thing i noticed was that when i leveled my elio i already knew which 6 passives i wanted to slot in and was either excited or knew it was going to be an improvement,right now i feel like i know for sure i want to slot 3-4 passives and those  help my gameplay,as far as the other 2-3 i might be using them just because i have free slots even though i'm not sure it's an improvement or just something added and either way they don't seem that exciting to final reach the 6th passive milestone for.
The downsides on some of 'em feel unnecessary but we'll see when i test the class a bit more.
 

2 0
Score : 2088

some things i forgot to mention. glad you pointed them out.

whirliwind being cast on portal only is pretty awkward

Tempest: it shouldnt be destroying every single portal no matter their location. in stead it should destroy portal based on proximity 

and yea, destroying portal and having to cast and re position feels rather counter productive in my opinion even if you can pull big numbers with proper set up for tempest. 

0 0
Score : 1004

Great analysis, but I would also like to add a few simple points from the perspective of Distance/SingleTarget Elios:
The cast limit on Pulsation cripples this build since it is used for both (light) damage and positioning of portals. The cast limit absolutely has to go, I see people complaining about this in every Elio thread so the common consensus is clear at least.
Wakmeha was the bread and butter of this build prior to 1.73, but the missing extra damage from Exalted really hurts damage output since that was swapped out with more situational armor penetration. This could be mended by some of the new Passives, but the drawbacks are just too heavy and restrictive on some of them.
It feels like the only non-crippling thing that happened to Distance/SingleTarget Elios in this patch was the Third Bar Spells and Control being made redundant. Too much focus was placed on the Meta Berserk build it seems..

3 0
Score : 105

 

-Echidna-#3432|2021-09-24 02:01:19
-ardent aegis:  it doesn't really help melee, but i don't really see how it can help distance either, or dd role in general.


I am still learning too, but pretty sure this ability is mandatory for single target distance dd. Hit with this to set up the portal for unleashed blade. It's very easy to set up portals so that AA/incan is casted through portal and UB can get a 50% boost if using trapster. Way too soon for us to be giving feedback, but developers probably know to ignore it the first month til we figure things out.

 
-Echidna-#3432|2021-09-26 20:09:42
Just setting the combo is one thing, but getting trapster in effect, is a whole other layer of set up required.  Not to mention if u Fail to kill the mob/player, your whole team is punished for it. 
​​Ardent and blade alone already uses up 10 ap.  Thats a majority of your ap resource. And if u Just end up spamming this spell. Then whats the point of all the cast limit thats intended to force player to use other spells. The number looks great in paper, but consider ing you spend So much ap Just to get rid or Just damage a single mob/player, then you're rather limited on any other thing that you can do in a turn.

Tested it again. Unleashed blade cant be casted through portal, and its fixed 3 cell range.  This doesnt help distance elio either.

Server just went down but i'm pretty sure you can cast UB through a portal, you just can't use the portal the monster is standing on. First turn dps is bad, it's the price of having portals. Second turn though, you can have an ally put a monster on a portal, then incan/UB/AA/UB, or put two monsters on portals and skip the AA. Other than very high res targets it does a lot more damage then the old wakmeha burst.
0 -2
Score : 2088

Just setting the combo is one thing, but getting trapster in effect, is a whole other layer of set up required.  Not to mention if u Fail to kill the mob/player, your whole team is punished for it. 
​​Ardent and blade alone already uses up 10 ap.  Thats a majority of your ap resource. And if u Just end up spamming this spell. Then whats the point of all the cast limit thats intended to force player to use other spells. The number looks great in paper, but consider ing you spend So much ap Just to get rid or Just damage a single mob/player, then you're rather limited on any other thing that you can do in a turn.

Tested blade again. u need 1 portal on mob, one next to it and one in between to get max value.  just how many ap do you need to set this combo up.

1 0
Score : 1135

I will say right now: I'm not talking about damage, it's there, I know.

I'm trying to keep playing this class right now, but maybe I will just wait for changes and see. Right now it does not feel... Fun? The damage is there, but so many gimmicks that need a specific setup makes that not fun, and I won't play something that I'm not having fun, even if it has a pretty good tool for the meta and on a team(Portals).

You can't unga bunga your way to damage on this iteration, and I don't think that's bad, but I feel that there's something missing.

I have to agree with -Echidna-#3432 here, every turn feels bad, like a chore, because you have to setup your turn to be WP efficient, while also doing damage. This just counters the many cast limits added on spells.

I remember playing Rogues on Kolis/PVM on Dofus, and while it was a little hard doing some setups, it was also pretty satisfiying, you where rewarded by that, it was really fun to do. I'm not feeling the same way on this new iteration of Eliotropes.

I'm not against adding more depth to classes, but this feels more like a clunky new mechanic, rather then a fun gameplay on Eliotrope right now. Will wait to see, but I still believe that with some updates on the class, this could change.

2 0
Score : 105

 

-Echidna-#3432|2021-09-28 23:01:24
fixed that part, and yes/no. every turn feels bad. the fact that you cant cast it through the portal mob is on just makes it even worse

It wouldn't work like that because it would not be possible to cast UB without it going through a portal if there was a portal between you and a monster on a portal.

oh also, 0 positioning tool to use when on exalted

It's by design. Being able to whirlwind or push something onto a portal while exalted would make it a lot easier to pull off more UBs.
so turn 1-2 you cant really do damage effectively because u need set up.  if you dont use portals for damage, maybe mid range elio with medium, then u run out of wp probably on turn 2, and you're left doing nothing worthwhile at turn 3/4 because u need to regen wp.

You obviously have not put any effort into learning and playing the class.. you are just playing the class "in theory" and that does not work. 1-2 turns to set up a burst? Out of wp probably on turn 2? If you are too lazy to learn it don't try to change it.
0 -3
Score : 2088

are you serious right now?

"It wouldn't work like that because it would not be possible to cast UB without it going through a portal if there was a portal between you and a monster on a portal."

well of course it doesn't work. i stated it doesn't work and provided the necessary step to make UB work. you just took what i said without even quoting the full context nor acknowledging the point i made

"It's by design. Being able to whirlwind or push something onto a portal while exalted would make it a lot easier to pull off more UBs."

what is your fixation with UB? i'm not even talking about UB at this point, but the overall positioning tool elio had before which is now gone with the new update.

"You obviously have not put any effort into learning and playing the class.. you are just playing the class "in theory" and that does not work. 1-2 turns to set up a burst? Out of wp probably on turn 2? If you are too lazy to learn it don't try to change it."

you obviously have not put any effort to read and have a civil discussion while being respectful. I have a 215 elio and tested it on multiple different occasion, dojo, mobs, dungeons, in group, etc as i have mentioned if you actually read my post. tell me, what did i say that is wrong provided with the whole context? elio dont need 1-2 turn to set up burst for portal if you want maximized damage with interstellar?  if you focus portal or dont use this passive u lose the 25% di. if you use medium to burst instead you lose both celestial and interstellar passive DI bonus. all within context if you use other passive to maximize damage. you have provided 0 valuable argument about anything elio does and being condescending now for no reason. tell me, if you spend wp in exalted mode to burst stuff down turn 1-2 so you can clear room fast for competitive leaderboards, how do you not run out of wp if you don't rely on tempest? are you telling me to just spam tempest now? what about the forced diversion the devs tried to implement? 

""I didn't answer that because I am still running encounters and learning the class better. The question you seem to be asking is whether or not they buffed elio support so much that you can justify bringing an elio that is 14/8, full support, stacked with resist, and never doing dps. I would have to say no, and it does not seem like that is ankamas intention with the class.""

can you read? this is a "FEEDBACK NEW ELIOPTROPE CHANGES NEEDED RIGHT NOW" not whether elio is buffed enough to use as support. we are discussing how it can be buffed to use as support.

""I might be wrong on this, but to me the main thing that has changed with the calm/exalted state is that there is no longer a benefit to switching into exalted state. For elios that position first turn and prep for second turn burst, it means they can go exalted first turn to prepare to go calm after the second turn burst when they are likely to be exposed or want to proc resilience for a third turn burst. There is no longer a drawback to doing this other than not regenerating wp first turn. This does not fit in at all with your full support elio dream and it just seems like you and the developers have completely different ideas for the class. But! Maybe I am wrong, I am still learning it.""

no benefit to switch into exalted?  exalted is the bread and butter of damage elio, what are you even talking about? "position first turn, prep for second burst." you said it yourself it may need 1-2, even 3 turn set up resillence set up but denies my point that it needs 1-2 turn of setup? are you delusional? what do you even do at turn 1 calm except set up 2 portal assuming you don't use interstellar. when have you ever regen wp first turn on exalt even on old elio? pulsation? do you even use elio? you are grossly wrong and if you can't comprehend the discussion in place and provide meaningful arguments then stop being condescending and learn the class.
 

1 0
Score : 2088

forgot to mention here, high AP build is so bad right now due to the cast limit. especially for DD. you'd want to use the best spell cost for damage output but its limited per cast, and if you use smaller ap spells, you'll just waste wp for mediocre damage. so ur left with tools that's been crippled, and limited use. and u cant use the other ones unless you just drain wp in a turn, and having nothing meaningful to do the the next turn in calm mode except dishing very low damage. maybe if the support aspect on calm is improved just as we discussed here, it may make it better? but it still won't fix my issue with it damage wise.  if it does become a good support class however then i might just make it a full support.  i can easily run out of wp in turn one if i wanna burst. then turn 2 i'm left with no wp while still on exalt and changing to calm, then only started to regen wp on turn 3.  at this point i might as well move my gears on osa and use it instead. this class need some serious help

4 0
Score : 875

Overall, Calm is a bit awkward. We have to start on Calm state and end the turn on Calm state too in order for the WP regen to work, or am I missing something here?

--

For my distance elio build, the changes are not bad imo.
Since my elio does not use portals for spell casting or as utility anyway (unless required by the dungeon mechanic), this new portal destroying gimmick kinda works in my favor. 
The WP regen is similar to Rogue's bomb destruction, so it's decent I guess...

I feel the new elio will do well with high AP (15-16AP with fury passives).
Mine has 15AP right now; I would consider to add 1x Save sublimation.

Also, good job for making Portal not dependant on no. of controls. Now I don't have to keep changing gears for more portals. lol

--

Now, the biggest problem is... please bring back the old Whirlwind.
Distance build usually has low dodge and spending 4 AP just to push myself is way too much.
4AP = Portal + whirlwind
And the cost increases if my elio is stabbed, because then I have to position 2 portals as such that I can push the mobs out of the way...
To make it worse, it has to be done on Calm state (including Siphon)......

If previous Whirlwind was deemed too imba, I don't mind it costing 2AP 1WP. Just let us be able to target and push an entity in both Calm & Exalted states please.
 

1 0
Score : 153

I found i like some changes a lot more than i thought i would,however comparing portals to bombs is a bit of a stretch,i still think it's a bit awkward to regen wp through destroying portals.

The new whirlwind is very very very bad,it's genuinely the only spell which changes puzzle me a lot.it's cast on portal only,range of 4 and damage in a line of 2 so that means if you don't want to get hit by your spell the effective range is actually 3 or 4.
It should be able to be cast through portals imo to see some use.

I fail to imagine anyone would use this new whirlwind but feel free to correct me if anyone found a use i'm not seeing right now.

The other thing that i miss a lot from old elio are positioning tools,probably due to the whirlwind changes but it feels like we hardly have any right now.

1 0
Score : 105

 

Arkalion#8110|2021-10-06 08:17:35
I fail to imagine anyone would use this new whirlwind but feel free to correct me if anyone found a use i'm not seeing right now


I think it's elios best option for kiting juggernaut type mobs, things like pincisions in crab and yokai in ghost panda. Elio can push from a range of 6 with this spell and the mob goes 2 tiles, not a lot of classes get a push like that. Elio can also push out some non juggernaut type mobs then stabalize from long range to kite them. Besides breaking lock, another use would be trading ap for mp. You can usually cast it on a portal you are already using to trade 2 ap for 2 mp. I don't really do that much with my mp build but a high ap build would probably want to trade ap sometimes. I play earth/air ST so I can't say how well the spell plays in exalted, I take it just for the calm effect.

 
Arkalion#8110|2021-10-14 04:55:36
Yes you're right,i didn't specify but in that sentence i meant just the exalted version as i criticized that

Any distance aoe build would want to use it for the exalted part. On a melee build i'd probably just hit myself with it. It's 36.5 damage per ap if you have to set up portals anyway, that's a lot especially for an aoe. Tempest has similar issues with range, portals, and not blowing yourself up so they go well together. Whirlwinds 2 uses is per portal, so you can potentially spend 8+ ap on a 36.5 damage per ap attack, then blow the portals with tempest. They could make it less restrictive but they probably wouldn't let it hit that hard.
1 -1
Score : 153

Yes you're right,i didn't specify but in that sentence i meant just the exalted version as i criticized that.


When one of the best uses for a spell is to hit yourself with it, something's fishy.
Also talking about destroying portals as it's just another thing to do isn't great since you're effectively spending 2more ap for every portal destroyed whenever you use a spell that does that.

 

0 0
Score : 153

The passive "spacetime" is very bugged.
Portals don't last 2 turns as the description of the passive say and neither does a single portal disappear every 2 turns like the spell says.

The way portals disappear seems to be random, from behaving correctly to never disappear for multiple turns in a row,it happened multiple times that if a fight was protracted for a long time, portals simply never disappeared

0 0
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