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[1.73] Balancing: Eliotrope

By [Ankama]WAKFU - ADMINISTRATOR - August 04, 2021, 17:00:00
DevTracker AnkaTracker

Hello everyone,

Please post your feedback here.

First Ankama intervention

Hello,

Just a word before I set off for the weekend, we already worked on some iterations on the Eliotrope.

ST and distance damage should be greatly improved compared to this version, we'll add more control with the likes of Siphon coming back to a 1 range min, passives should also be better.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Enjoy your weekend !

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Reactions 51
Score : 108

Update is terrible! You damn it NERFED eliotropes when you should've BUFF them like you did with other classes! Destroyed distance style at all and made eliotropes even more limited than before.

11 -9
Score : 257

- Zerk Bruta seems like it would be nice with these changes. (to a certain extent)
- The limit on flood and wakmeha is killing me especially since distance elios should generally have a large ap pool.
- Aredent finally has a use past midgame.
- More passives to actually choose from. Before everyone would be running the exact same ones.
- RIP Clash, Flood and Whirlwind.
- I'm not a huge fan of the -75 resis from the reworked passive. And here i was thinking the -50 resis from turning exalted was enough.
- A lot of the the passives feel too simple now but it's understandable.
- Portal destruction with 1ap portals seems like a nice build to play around with. Definitely want to see its limits.
- Maybe replace number of uses per turn with uses per target for pulsation. It's too hard to move multiple portals exactly where you want them already.
- 3rd spell bar is amazing.
- Portals no longer requiring control allows for so much more gear/stat allocation.

*New comments about 10th of Sept. beta on the next page*

6 0
Score : 108

You've just limited Eliotropes even more that before. You literally killed them, Ankama. You did something people wanted to get FIXED, but you made it even WORSE! Now distance style is not playable at all which was one of them most Eliotrope features! Wakmeha is cannot be used more than 2 times and no ignoring resistance damage, which was a thing keept Eliotropes from being total losers in PVP if you use water brunch, ALL the healing spells which could help you to survive got RUINED and limited by 2 times per turn or even just ONCE per turn, wich makes it USELESS AT ALL! If nothing will get changed - i'm leaving this game, just as the majority of players. You ruined everything. Bravo.

8 -10
Score : 2141
First of all, I want to be sure that you all understand some things:
  • This is my feedback, which means it's my personal point of view.
  • That's all right if you disagree with me. Don't worry.
  • I love this class and I play it since it was released. And played it in more ways that you can imagine. So please, give me at least credit enough to respect my opinion and do not transform this into a rage discussion.

Okay, so, with that all said, this is my Portal Guy Elio Feedback, for the first version of this re-balancing changes...

Hmm... How to start?.... 
I think I will just start by following the order used on the post.

General

• "Several spells have been reworked in order to have a more consistent and varied kit. In particular, the role calm - support is improved.

Well they were mainly split into separated versions, but ok. Besides that, I dont really see many good modifications for support Elio, at least not in the passives. And that could be a point of interest to be worked on / more explored.

• "Limitations on the number of uses per target or per turn are added to the spells. This is an essential change so that a character is forced to use multiple options, and thus pushes to adapt and make different decisions more often.

This is not bad, to be honest. It's a standard for all the classes and I agree that it should be implemented on some Elio spells too. This is a good change and overall well implemented one. Will discuss more about this when talking about specific spells.

• "Because the spells Portal and Exaltation can be considered mandatory, they are added to the third spell bar at the start of combat. In addition, new non-elemental spells are created."

In my opinion, this is the best change so far. It's essential to have those spells on 3rd bar.

• "Natural Mechanics: Calm and Exalted"

I really prefer the new Natural Mechanics over the old ones and the reason for that is: 
  • The recover of WP on Calm is more natural now, compared to the old one when you recovered it after being hit. Not always you want to receive damage in order to recover that amount.
  • The Resistance bonus / punishment were not well balanced through the states and didn't add much for the other Elio mechanics.

Elemental Spells

Water water

Wakmeha: Removing the non-reducible damage is kinda heavy, but we all know that was a bit too strong. About the damage / AP and the damage dealt to the armor tho, I think it can be increased. It's a not really strong spell now if you calculate damage / AP. And considering the damage + damage on armor is not a good calculation because it's barely used.

So, in short terms,I just think the damage could be increased for this spell (for at least 25 / AP on level 200, which is the kinda the standard).

Whirlwind: For this I have a question: The damage dealt around the portal will be considered Area Damage? (And so considering AoE Mastery instead of ST) Would make more sense. Just want to confirm that.

Cataclysm (Old Barrier): Fast feedback: I think it's more fair now. Good.

Earth earth

Burning Aegis: This one is waaaaaaaaay better than the old version, thank you so much for this change!

Tremblor (Old Cataclysm): This was improved, a lot! It's more useful and dynamic now too, so I liked it. 

Hiding: For this I also have a question: How it's decided if it's going through a portal or not? If I'm at the range of the target to be used without a portal, but there are portals close, which one will be applied? Which one has the "preference"?

Air (?)

Torrential Flux: The increased range is really good, thanks!

Siphon: I liked the old mechanic but indeed this one is more direct, simple and usefull. So it's overall a good change too.

Ethereal Burst: Same fast feedback: Good changes.

Storm: Hmmm I am not sure about this change, but it's way more interesting than it was before. I am still in doubt about that "Portal Destruction" mechanic, would need more tests to see how it goes, since it was only present on Unleashed Blade before.

Unleashed Blade: Same fast feedback: Good changes, even if they were simple.

Non-Elemental Spells neutral

Portal and Exaltation: As mentioned before, this is way way better and I am really happy that it finally came out.

Prevention: It's better now than before. That 1 turn delays was 80% of the time decisive for not resurrecting a friend

Centering Point: This is bad... In it's current state, at least... I think that destroying the portal only to pull 2 cells is too expensive. Imagine that , in the best situation ever, you already have the portal in the right position. You will still have to spend 1 AP, 1 WP (recovered if you are exalted) and destroy the portal , in order to push yourself + targets at max (since it's cast in line). There are spells, like Huppermage School one that would be way cheaper and easier to use than this... So I think it needs to be re-thought and re-balanced again...

Therapy: This one ... First I don't get why Elio now have heals, it doesn't match much with the character theme and etc...  And second I think it's too expensive for the amount healed, even if you recover 3 WP while on Calm. So, in my opinion, it's overall a bad spell and also needs to be re-thought...

Barrier: This is the old mechanic for Barrier Elemental Spell and I agree that it should be separated. It's better now and I think it can be more useful for both Calm and Exalted, Support and DD builds. So it's a good change!

Passives

Ok, now it gets more serious... First I would like to say that I'm, overall, not happy with the changes (which were mainly splitting old ones into several passives) and the passives are way too important on a class. So let's talk about them...
     
Resilience:
"At the beginning of the Eliotrope's turn:
The Eliotrope deals an additional 20% damage to enemies that were in melee
"

I think this is mainly for removing the -Res condition while keeping some damage bonus for being in melee, so for this one I think it's ok and I understand and agree with the changes.
   
Intermediary:
"Converts 2 Range for 1 MP (max 4 Range for 2 MP)"

But this one is... ahn... Not good. Build gears with Range has a cost on elemental mastery/attributes and building it for this kind of conversion sounds terrible, at least for me. It was already bad before and it's still bad now...  Even with the increased max amount. I think it would be better to be an implement of another passive or at least have some more buffs in it...
    
Rage:
"If current HP < 65% HP :
+2 AP -75 resistance
"

Cringe ... This is bad too... Of course I understand the change because the old version was too OP (+1AP, +1MP, +240 Berserk Mastery), but I think this 75 resistance reduction is too heavy. If you stack this up with new Effervescence passive, your are not going to be in zerk for much time, because you'll be dead ohmy
   
Transient:
"When an ally (or the Eliotrope) uses a portal, once per turn:
Heal : 10% of max HP
"

This is too empty, too simple, nothing special and not really attractive... I think it could be implemented with something else... Like the 2AP buff when there was a portal between you and allies and you cast Flood that was removed, or something similar , another buff for allies .. I don't know... But it's not attractive at all in the current situation.

Effervescence:
"Calm: +100 Resistance, -10% Damage inflicted
Exalted: +20% Damage inflicted, -50 Resistance
"
 
Separating this from the Natural Mechanics is nice too. This is the most interesting spell in my point of view. Really good addition.

Celestial Portal:
"20% Damage inflicted on a spell that passes through a portal
-10% Damage inflicted otherwise
"

For this one I am still not sure... I think that the old version was better, even if it was not as simple as this new one.. And the -10% debuff is questionable...
Portals already have a huge debuff for traveling, moving, setting... I don't think that this is needed... 

Also, I think the travelling debuff  stacks too much... -60% DI and -180 elemental res is way too much. It makes the travel not only punishable, it makes it unusable.

Disciple of the Portal:
"When an enemy target begins their turn on a portal:
-2 MP
50 Light Damage (level 200)
"

This is a good passive too, I really like this function. It's new and add some new horizons for the Elio happy

Reminiscence:
"When an entity crosses one of the Eliotrope's team's portals, it cannot cross a portal for 1 turn
Every three times an entity crosses one of the portals, the Eliotrope regains 1 PW
"

For this one I think 1 use of the portal is too restrict for each entity. For allies, at least, it should be minimum 2 uses... Even if it's still recovering at max 1 PW per entity per turn, it would be better. Limiting the usage of portal is, again, one more huge debuff that I don't think it's necessary...
   
White Dimension:
"Per portal in melee of the target:
10% Damage inflicted on that target
Portals can only be cast on cells that are in contact with an entity
"

This is kinda interesting, but I still need to test it to be more sure before giving a feedback.

Concern:
"200% of the level in Berserk mastery
The Eliotrope's MP are halved when it has less than 50% of HP
"

Ahn... I am also not sure about this one.. The mastery looks too much, the debuff too, but... I'm not sure if it's balanced at all... Would need some testings...
   
Space and time:
"Portals last 2 turns
Portals cost 1 AP less
"

This is an interesting passive to reduce the cost and so increase the possibilities... I really like this one and I want to test it more to see how it goes. But I think this one has a big potential. Will make the gameplay more dynamic, less restrictive... Really nice.

Valve:
"Limit to two portals
One is blue, the other is orange
Spells that pass through the portals give a life steal (30% of the damage inflicted)
"

Nice reference here xD The idea is interesting but I would like to see more effects on this one.. Only having the life steal is not really attractive when you have a 2 portals restriction... Maybe increasing the portal cast range?
   
Shield of the end:
"3 WP max
-20% Distance damage
"

Sword of the beginning:
"3 WP max
-20% Melee damage
"

I think this last two are not good... They are not interesting, there are not a good mechanic or a theme (besides the names) that would make it attractive... Of course, it doesn't have a huge debuff if you decide for distance or melee, but ... They are just not interesting, too flat... looks like those standard red boarded passives (like carnage) that all classes have... Despite the name, I can't relate this passives with Elio, there is no link between them... I am not sure if I made myself clear...


Well I think this is a short explanation about what I thought and what I could test / calculate.

As a friend said:
"The one thing I am worried the most about is damage boosts... I feel like the class just doesn't have enough to deal considerable damage besides on brutality obviously "

And I share his fears...

I hope this can help you guys to develop and balance a new, fun, strong and enjoyable Eliotrop.

With love,

Fukumoto.
16 0
Score : 49

I find your point very interesting, i'm just disappointed on Rage passive, all elios used to get a Vivacity Sublimination that does exactly the same thing. I see this as a buff, now you have a subli slot free and an innate 1 AP plus, if you play with a team those 75 res can be ignored, eventually you can just go in Calm and have a +25 Res. Hope you'll think again on that passive, on my opinion one of the best for now, some other passive are just horrible

0 0
Score : 749

Oh boy, as difficult as it is for me, I'll try to make this as concise and constructive as possible, because I believe there are some major fundamental issues with the current iteration of the Eliotrope revamp.

1. Distance Eliotrope, portal play and directional damage.

Let's preface this by saying that distance eliotrope is by far the build that lost the most through this revamp not only in terms power, but also in gameplay. When it comes to damage it lost almost all of its sources of damage inflicted (20% from effervescence, 20% from sublimation, 15% from celestial portal) and received severe nerfs to 2 of its core dpt spells (piercing damage on Wakmeha and the 50% base damage on Flood) making those spells below mediocre and frankly borderline unusable for damage dealing. The reason distance Eliotropes had access to above average final damage sources compared to other classes, as explained way back by Dy7 (the lead game designer behind the class at the time), was to compensate their inability to deal direction based damage through portals (i.e. backstab and sidestab). And Dy7's reasoning to not give them directional damage in the first place was to avoid confusion as to what constitutes backstab when casting a spell through portals (example: an enemy is facing me and I have 2 portals, one of which is behind the enemy. If I cast a spell through those portals the spell will visually hit that enemy from behind so in his opinion some players might misunderstand that as a backstab, whereas an actual backstab would only be determined by the relative position and facing of the two characters). While I don't agree with that reasoning, it more or less shaped the design philosophy of portal play. Currently Celestial portal with its 20% damage inflicted not only doesn't compensate for our inability to backstab/sidestab or even the AP investment for the portal setup, but also carries a penalty for not attacking through portals, making its effect an overall net negative for general use. In addition, casting spells through portals was supposed to be our way of extending our range since our spells don't scale with range, are mostly low to medium range and linear by default, so portal play shouldn't be treated as a luxury with situational bonus damage and penalties, because it's fundamental to the class by design.

Suggestion: Remove the penalty on celestial portal and make it baseline and/or remove the directional damage penalty for attacking through portals and/or allow our spells to scale with range to be on par with other class spells without being forced to use portals if it's going to be treated as a bonus rather than a fundamental mechanic.

The implemented cast limitations on most of our spells exacerbate the above problems by entirely preventing us from using our AP pool to deal damage at a distance in a single element. If you look at the 3 elemental branches, air is the only element that can fully utilize 12-15 ap while attacking without mixing elements. Water not only can't do that anymore, but frankly it no longer has any actual spells worth casting at a distance unless you're fine with dumping 3 WP into Pulsation, which is mediocre at best, and even then you have 6-9 more AP to go through. Earth also has that problem to a lesser extent, since clash and hiding are still usable even after the nerfs, but it also can't fully utilize even 12 ap at a distance and that's using the entirety of earth's distance arsenal. This type of design strongly clashes with the fundamental mechanics of the game which involve enemies having different resistances and it's expected of the players to pick and choose which element to attack with based on those resistances.

Suggestion: Every element needs either a high cost attack with no per turn/target conditions to fill in the blanks (similar to Unleashed Blade and Tempest) and/or the implemented cast limitations for current skills should be reevaluated by at least removing the cast limitation on Clash and Wakmeha (which definitely needs a bump up in its ratio to make it usable, for example 23 dmg/ap in calm and 27 dmg/ap in exalted at lvl 200). An alternative suggestion would be to funnel distance spells into 2 of the elements, for example by swapping Clash and the new Cataclysm (old Barrier), which would make the 3 elements more coherent design wise (this would make earth entirely melee focused, water entirely distance focused and air a flexible element that can do either).

2. Team support and utility.
I would've been completely fine with the extreme damage nerf if it came with some valuable high utility skills to use during calm. Not only did that not happen, but we had our already mediocre enemy positioning nerfed into oblivion. Why did we lose our ability to push enemies in melee through Whirlwind? Why was Siphon, one of the coolest and most flavorful Eliotrope skills, which interacted in arguably the most interesting way with the Calm/Exalted mechanic completely gutted? Most of all, why can't we actually deal damage on our push spells? A 2AP spell which pushes 1 cell, has a stance requirement, can't be used in melee and has a per target/turn limitation doesn't deal any damage? This is literally hands down the worst spell I've ever seen in this game bar none, and we have 2 of them. But these spells are not only awful on their own, they effectively ruin the Unleashed Blade combo by bumping up its cost from a 7 AP combo into a 9 AP combo, essentially giving it the same damage ratio as Pulsation. Oh and it requires a stance switch to pull off unless you invest in a second portal for Whirlwind at which point your Unleashed Blade costs 11 AP putting its ratio at slightly above 20 dmg/ap. What did we get in return? A tiny shield, a mass charm copy paste, a tiny heal that's marginally better in raw numbers than healing word but costs 3 WP, has 0-1 range and has a per target/turn limitation for some reason as if we aren't already limited by WP. The shield doesn't even double it's value when we self cast it through portals because spells seem to check for portal availability after checking if direct targeting is possible. To say I'm disappointed would be an understatement.

Suggestion: Make spells check if they can go through portals before checking for direct targeting, allow the calm versions of Whirlwind and Siphon to deal damage at a lower ratio (23 and 25 dmg/ap respectively) and/or reduce the cooldown of Incandescence to 1 turn so it can pay for the ungodly amount of Portals we need to produce just to do basic actions, reduce the cost of the heal to 1 AP 1 WP while retaining its conditions (maybe have it interact with portals in some way), give us more utility options in calm (for example the calm version of Clash can heal/shield allies or shred enemy resistances or any form of utility really; Tremblor can have some buff on allies if they end their turn around the Elio and get hit by the attack at the start of Elio's turn).

3. The good.
There are some things I like in the revamp. The Unleashed Blade buff is very good, the build with Tempest and the "Space and time" passive is very unique and fun even though I doubt it will go live in its current state (even though I hope it does). Overall the revamp feels like a significant downgrade rather than a simple rebalance, because of the extreme nerfs to distance damage and the below average team utility. The only nerf Elio actually needed was maybe its melee/aoe delayed damage build (which allowed it to funnel two turns of AP into one turn), but it somehow ended up suffering the least amount nerfs, so while its damage is clearly lower, it's still very much usable, unlike its distance counterpart. In conclusion, I don't believe the situation is unsalvageable, but there is a lot of room for improvement.

4. Some bugs.

  • Hiding seems to have its directional damage tags swapped, i.e. it can't backstab when attacking directly, but can backstab when cast through portals (even though I believe the directional damage penalty through portals is obsolete with the current design philosophy).
  • Moving a portal with Pulsation and the "Space and time" passive sometimes replicates the portal instead of moving it and turns it into a permanent portal. How to replicate: Have only "Space and time" as a passive (because some passives like "White dimension" seem to fix the bug), cast two portals and use Pulsation on an empty cell.
  • Self casting Ardent Aegis with 2 portals around the Elio plays the animation of the spell going through the portal but doesn't actually provide the increased effect. This seems to be a fundamental issue with all spells that can go through portals as outlined above, but is most noticeable with Ardent Aegis.

Will probably report more bugs when I get the chance to play tonight and this weekend. Thanks for reading.
17 0
Score : 989

I was going to write my own feedback post, but you pretty much covered everything I think about Distance Eliotropes. This revamp is crippling to them.
I think it is amazing that the current non-beta iteration of Eliotrope can have two vastly different playstyles (distance and berserk/melee) and this is something that should be preserved and kept viable at all costs, ESPECIALLY if you consider the initial core concept of this class that you laid out here perfectly.

4 0
Score : 3589

I think intermediary should be an innate passive and that white dimension should increase the range of your portal spell

1 -3
Score : 905

We get a passive named Sword of the Beggining, and we got a spell that uses a blade.(Unleashed Blade). Maybe, instead of a bland bonus, make the passive for it? 

Same with Shield of the End, make it interact with Ardent Aegis, or Deafening Shield, even with Barrier. At least this way, it would be better than what we got right now.

Therapy should be changed to something else. I dont think Elio needs a healing spell.

Transitory is also too bland. If we go by the Bonus/drawback theme, maybe make the caster and his allies be able to use only one portal per turn, but after they get througth it, they gain a 30% damage Increase on their next spell, like a surprise attack.

I would also entirely change Reminiscence, since the new Transitory drawback is almost the same as this.  

I liked Space and Time, but maybe add one more thing to it. When the caster use Pulsation to replace the closest portal, this could reset the turn count of the portal, and Pulsation, when used on air, could give back 1AP.

->Edit: Also, MAYBE Time Breach could leave an travel only portal behind when used. Dont know if this should be included on a passive or on Time Breach itself, but would be fun.

Valve passive seems really nice, but you could make something more of it. Maybe change the effect depending on the starting/ending portal. If the Eliotrope used the spell through the orange portal, and it got to the enemy through the blue one, make it do more damage, if not, make it life steal. Or maybe some other effects.
 

2 0
Score : 3589

What if disciple of the portal also gave a bit of -resist or something to an enemy if you colapse a portal on him with blade, tempest or centerpoint?

2 -2
Score : 270
Highly agree with -Danchou-#5764 here.

I again like to emphasize that with the planned changes the distance Eliotrope becomes basically useless and with that the core mechanic of this class.  -Danchou-#5764 post perfectly explains to why.
Yes, the Eliotrope allows for a very effective melee/berserker build that's even improved upon with these changes. However limiting the class to a melee fighter defeats the purpose of it and on the long run people will switch to stronger melee classes that come with an easier set up and thus faster damage output. 


Also I like to give my feedback on the spell limitations
 "Limitations on the number of uses per target or per turn are added to the spells. This is an essential change so that a character is forced to use multiple options, and thus pushes to adapt and make different decisions more often.
This is punishing the player for using their limited viable options instead of increasing their viable options. It's so frustrating to read that you want to force the player to use something else instead of changing spells in a way that makes me want to use something else. I really cannot understand this sentiment of using brute force to push the use of different skills.
I can only provide examples for distance Eliotropes as this is what I familiar with but I'm fairly sure similar arguments could be made for other skills and classes.

Limiting Pulsation, the bread and butter of skill any distance Elio, hurts badly and I fail to see why. It's mainly used to reposition Portals to be able to target monsters with your otherwise limited range. Being flexible with Portals is manadatory to make viable damage. Also it's a nice small damage skill to throw in for leftover AP - something you can't avoid with a distance Elio atm. Why cutting that short?
Same goes to limiting Wakmeha. Cutting short my bread and butter damage distance Skill is breaking my legs. Yes, with the bigger range on Unleashed Blade it's become a more viable alternative but being forced to use an Air spell due to a limitaton when my opponent has high Air resistance is frustrating. I'm not going to elaborate on the intentended Nerf of Wakmeha as Danchou and Datsuki already elobrated well on that.


 
5 0
Score : 3589

So in escence, we want more bread.
If other spells suck, they should be brought in line with the good spells so that spamming one spell isn't the optimal play

4 -2
Score : 138

Just trying to add something already detailed by the other mates (sorry about grammar mistakes):

1) Celestial Portal and Intermediary: - 35% of final damage for distance. A big NERF.
Before we should trade 2 AP (Pulsation) for buffing, that is, 17% (2 AP of 12 AP) for the buff, lasting 2 turns. This was a good tradeoff, with the directional restriction of damage through portals.

2) Resilience: +20% of damage just for elio is not a fair trade with -100 of resistance (1,25 times total damage for all the team). This  hurts the melee builds.

3) Storm: Something interesting could be worked here, but we must count the AP cost for portals.

4) Transient: The buff for % critique damage was cool. I have one build upon that. But with sublimations we can somehow bypass this.

5) Incandescence already was a compensation for portal costs (damages at level 200):
2 portals (4 AP) + Incandescene (1 AP) => 150 damage/5 AP = 30 damage per AP. 
1 portal (2 AP) + Incandescene (1 AP) => 75 damage/3 AP = 25 damage per AP.

6) • Shield of the end:
• Sword of the beginning:

These 2 passives look like just something to open doors for "Ancestral Energy" sublimation.
PW is not a big deal for having these 2 passives.

0 0
Score : 108

Also the portals in fight is now moving the weird way. Now portal can arrive with some reason by casting portals moving spell, and also when you move portal it can be moved not the closest concerning to one of portals center but DIRECTLY RANDOM PORTAL! Fix that along with all stuff up there. It is not possible to play on distance with that at all. 

1 -1
Score : 595

Hi, there is one move that I haven't seen addressed: Deafening Target, the 3 AP area spell that removes MP. I would appreciate it if this move got some love.

As is, its effects aren't very interesting: it doesn't interact with any of the eliotrope's portals or other spells, its effects are not very interesting, and the damage is quite underwhelming. Few players find a reason to include this spell on their deck, and I would love to see it reworked to better fit the eliotrope's kit.

2 0
Score : 138

And not forgetting the compesation for the control gears...

1 -1
Score : 257

Portals no longer require control. You can see it in the change log.

0 0
Score : 80
I’ve never posted on any of the forums before, but as someone who has been an Eliotrope main since I started playing in 2017, I feel the need to offer some feedback and potential insight on a lot of the changes in beta so far.

Playstyle Concerns
To start, I don’t think that the changes made to Eliotrope inherently create more varied ways to play the class. The new passives taking place of the old ones feel more limiting than anything. While it provides more incentive and options for players to go with an AoE playstyle, it removes any appealing aspects of building single target. As it stands on live, there are several different ways to build Eliotrope, between full Crit, Berserk, or AoE, with a fairly wide amount of variance of in-betweens. With the changes on beta, it doesn’t seem like there’s as much potential for each of the current playstyles to be equally viable.

Core Mechanics

As it stands on live, the Calm and Exalted states gave Eliotropes the choice to adapt to different situations; Exalted incentivized going for a higher risk, higher reward playstyle while Calm allowed the player to “play it safe” for when the situation called for it. The way that it was allowed for a natural flow between the two states, balancing between going all in to deal damage and taking a turn to recover wp and reducing incoming damage. Both states have their benefits and drawbacks that complement each other. The changes to Calm and Exalted on beta feel like an overall downgrade from this. Deleting the resistance debuff of Exalted and the resistance buff of Calm completely removes those aspects that were initially at the core of the class. By removing the bonuses from one and the drawbacks from the other, and placing a damage inflicted penalty on Calm, it destroys the feel of a natural ebb and flow between states in combat.

Passive Changes
I’m not opposed to the new passives that were added. I find a lot of them interesting and complex, and there’s definitely a lot of ways they can be played around. However, the changes to the some of the old passives seem more punishing than they deserved to be. What made them strong to begin with was how they worked in tandem with the active and elemental spells. Transitory originally gave more value in its added mechanic to flood in addition to the bonus provided when using portals. By removing that, it instantly worsens Eliotrope’s damage and support capability. Given that there’s no passive that changes the effects of spells, whether calm or exalted just feels like there’s less value to the mechanic overall.

Spell Changes
Water Branch:
Wakmeha: I will agree that the original Wakmeha was an incredibly powerful ability, arguably one of the most impactful spells in the entire Eliotrope spell book. However, the changes made to it on beta feel like a massive nerf that wasn’t warranted. Its ability to hit under armor wasn’t the aspect that made it so strong, though it’s a useful part of the spell to have. The fact that the second hit was nonreducible was the main thing that made it powerful. If the only change to it was the target cast limit, I wouldn’t have a problem with it, but removing what makes it strong and then putting a cast limit on top of it just makes it feel not worth using.
Flood: I feel the same in regards to the changes to Flood; the change from the Transitory to Transient passive removes too much impact to warrant having a cast limit on the spell.
Whirlwind: The changes to Whirlwind feel limiting because it can only be used/deal damage as an AoE. Single-Target builds that use this spell will be worse by default, and it overcomplicates the Eliotrope’s role as a positioner.
Barrier: The changes to Barrier are interesting now that it’s less utility-oriented and more damage-focused now.

Earth Branch: The changes to the Earth spells feel more natural, and while I haven’t had that much time to experiment with them, they’re interesting and all allow for more variety in usage.

Air Branch: The changes to the Air spells are all really interesting, as a lot of the spells seem to have a lot more value. I’ll admit that the Air Branch was originally the most underwhelming of the Eliotrope spellbook to me, but with these changes, I can work with them.
Siphon: With Siphon, I’d preferred that it dealt damage while being utility as well, but it’s not a world-ending change.
Unleashed Blade: I appreciate the 1-3 range change on Unleashed Blade so it’s usable as a viable distance spell.

With all that being said, I hope that the Devs take another look at this class revamp. After trying to run new Elio through a dungeon in beta, I gave up on it because it felt borderline unplayable. There's still time for better changes to be made, but this implementation of the class just isn't workable to me. As it stands now, I don’t know if I’ll be able to continue playing my favorite class in a way that’s enjoyable for me with these changes. 
12 0
Score : 185

As a side note, they removed the nonreducible damage from ouginak too, maybe they just dont want nonreducible spells.

0 0
Score : 2325

ok now it's time to talk about elio..
i was one of the guy who played elio back in the 2014 when they came.
im not the kinda guy who will write too much and too well, but i hope you guys will understand.

Elio right now is a nuclear bomb the damage here it's real if you go meele/aoe.
but i think he got 2 major problem here

1° problem
this kinda meele elio thing it's something that was very rare even back in the 2014.
if you say elio people will think, well it's a distance damager cause he got portal to move his spell.
So that's why this it's a real deal right now cause portals seems just some "bombs" that you have to explode with tempest, and this it will mean too much people have to change his playstyle (and equip).

2° problem
this elio is strong, like Chuck Norris strong but it's a glass cannon. What's the problem on that? you may ask, well simple, this thing it will work only if you have hero or a party, cause elio right now can't solo play. He can't sustain himself even 4 mob (at osamosa) are too much for him if he can't kill them in one turn. So my guess here is that this "rebalance" was pretty much thought by the use of an hero system, cause like i said on the 1° problem, distance is not the main thing on elio anymore.

so this is my consideration about it. This elio is not that bad, it's just something that right now can't solo play and have a total change of gameplay. For me this it's what you call a rework not a rebalance.

sorry for my bad english, this is not my language xD

2 0
Score : 138

Well said,
but the point I think is that melee/AoE Elio is a very especific build, not fitting for every dungeon (what about Nogord, Fu Moon, Ancient Egg and many others?).

And he needs something like half of the team working just for him.

On the other hand, distance Elio is wellcomed at many dungeons.

4 0
Score : 681

Hello there! I will speak from my point of view, which is a strictly PvE ranged Elio.

First of all, my general impression is Elios have been nerfed pretty hard, especially as damage dealers.
Overall final damage from combo Exalted + Effervescence + Celestial Portal + Sublimation went down from 95% to 65% with further reduction when spells fail to go through portal. And Spell damage did not compensate for it at all.

waterWater Branchwater

Wakmeha
Anybody who would tell you it is not borderly op spell on live would lie. But, to be honest live iteration with just added spell cast limit of either 2 per target or 2 per turn would be totally fine. Current beta version is a very specific spell with horrible 21dmg per ap ratio. And while it's cool as an AP reduction spell or armor crunching spell, I will not slot it in my deck if there is no boss with immunity removal on AP loss or really pesky armoring mob. Which is like 80-90% of the time. And I doubt many will deck it either.

Pulsation
Bread and butter, swiss army knife of any portal or ranged Elio. 3 uses per turn... Well, that's simply not enough! I do understand the motion of dev team to move away from spells on which you would love to spend your entire turn on, but currently we simultaneously don't have anything else to spend our ap on and need to this spell for portal management. If you are so inclined on restricting this spell, please do it at least per target, and not per turn.

Flood
With removal of transitory passive this spell falls into category of almost support only. It deals 25dmg per ap. For a ranged portal build you won't use it for damage as you can't spend enough ap on it, you can't use it through portal so it will get a penalty from Celestial Portal passive. For a melee build you simply have better spells. Everybody will have this spell decked nonetheless, but will use it only for movement. Imo, old transitory passive needs to be baked into this spell in form of buffing ally on switching and increased damage on exalted for this spell to be more useful.

Whirlwind
This is just plain bad. Bad damage, can't go through portal for push anymore, horrible cast restriction. Can you please add the push out of portal effect to Centering Point ability on exalted for example and make a brand new spell for water tree to hit enemies with? 

Barrier-Cataclysm
I guess decoupling barrier from this spell and reducing AP cost a bit is fine. But I don't think it deserves to maintain 2 turn cd without barrier, armor generation and with new no portal rule. Once per turn should be fine with those drawbacks.

earthEarth Branchearth

Deafening Target
I know this spell did not receive any changes, but maybe it should? It is a remnant from the age when Elios thought to be a tanking class, I assume. Seeing as now we can spend less and less AP on spells we can throw through portals, maybe we should be able to do so with this one? Without MP removal, of course.

Ardent Aegis
Imo, it is weird to have a spell, which is not modified in any way by any stat or passive as an earth elemental. Don't we have special spells for that? Anyway, it is way better than what old one was. A few tweaks would be lovely, though. First, move it for special spell instead of Therapy (and delete this abomination), second, make it uncastable on yourself, so you have to use portals and always will get full effect. And last, add a passive for armor given if you want Elios to be more supportive in that way.

Cataclysm-Tremblor
While it is nice for a melee build to have half of damage from and old spell to apply at instant, I have to remind you, that is yet 8 less AP per turn for a ranged build to throw through portal.

Clash
I'm unsure if removal of extra damage with exalted on low health is a description bug or undocumented feature. But with overall final damage reduction and 2 per turn limit this spell looks really underwhelming with it's 21dmg per AP ratio. Can it be buffed to 25 at least?

Hiding
I can be ok with removal of health steal from throwing this spell through portal. But not with 1 cast per target limitation. We already are starved with amount of AP we can throw through portals, if you are afraid of making this spell too good at health steal maybe lower steal %?

fireAir Branchfire

Torrential Flux
As long as glyphs from the spell can't stack, this spell already bears invisible 1 use per turn limitation. Maybe just make it real and improve damage of the spell accordingly?

Siphon
I really liked this spell before, and I think many more did. If you really want to dumb it down, can we at least have it working more or less like before? Damage on enemies in both forms, plus push on calm and pull on exalted.

Ethereal Burst
Lowering dmg per AP from 31 to 29 and amount of AP able to spend on target from 6 to 3 does not feel fair for improving incurable from 30% to 40%. Either improve incurable to 5-6 or allow to spend more AP on target.

Tempest
While I do like new effects of the spell, what I would like even more is to have passive for removing its interaction with portals.

Unleashed Blade
Thank you, I think slight buff for a very mediocre spell was more than justified.

neutralSpecial Spellsneutral

Portal and Exaltation 
It is great to have core toolkit of class to be always available, but somehow I think we got punished for it a bit too hard.

Centering Point
It is an ok spell, but hardly better than mass charm. Adding repulsion from portal on exalted would be really nice. Destroying portal is a bit harsh too.

Therapy
The worst healing spell in the game added for a class with no healing and barely any support role prior patch. Why? Why? Can you just move Ardent Aegis here and we will all forget this spell ever happened?

Barrier
It's nice.

neutralPassivesneutral

Overall - most passives got split in two, have half of effects removed, numbers toned down or detrimental effects added. Having the same number of slots for passives available, class feels a lot weaker.

Resilience
Removal of supporting role.

Intermediary
Without ranged damage it is a rather costly to waste passive slot for gearing choices.

Rage
The main problem with this passive is struggle to spend AP from range, otherwise it's ok. Maybe 75 resist is a bit high though, 50 would be better.

Transient (ex Transitory)
You took a passive, removed the half I loved and reinforced the part I hated. From PvE standpoint healing on portals has only one application - failing Incurable challenge. Healing is low, insignificant and comes when not needed. If you want to make a support portal passive, change healing into armor, it would be a great passive.

The half of the passive with flood improvements is sorely missed, it was great both as support and as damage.

Effervescence
It will do.

Celestial Portal
Buff is too low for having a drawback.

Disciple of the Portal
I guess it's for PvP, no comment.

Reminiscence
I guess it's for PvP, no comment.

White Dimension
It's weird. I think it should improve base portal range to 6, as being able to open a new portal only near a target is a huge drawback.

Concern
I don't like it, but I can work with it.

Space and time
It will do.

Valve
Nice pun, sadly we don't have colored portals yet. I don't like it, but I can work with it.

Shield of the end and Sword of the beginning
While you don't usually go both melee and range at the same time and it's save to take one of these passives, I don't feel need for extra WP pool at the cost of passive. I could use more WP regen, sure. I would love to have this passives in reverse, sacrificing WP pool for final damage. But as is they look pointless on Elio.

Missed passive opportunities

Reinforcing Wakfu
+ armor given for targets with armor. It would be a unique armoring passive and it would work in well with Ardent Aegis and Transient changed to armor on improving support role of Elio.

Pocket sized Portals
Entities can no longer go through portals, but portals no longer cost AP and AP spent on pulsation for moving portals is refunded. When you want to abandon support role of portals and dedicate your AP to actually dealing damage.



Overall conclusions.
Damage was nerfed across the board, it is impossible to spend meaningful amount of AP dealing single target damage through portal in any element except air, passives are dulled down, some staple elements are missing. If it's the price of having portal and exaltation in third bar, it is too high.
 

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Hello,

Just a word before I set off for the weekend, we already worked on some iterations on the Eliotrope.

ST and distance damage should be greatly improved compared to this version, we'll add more control with the likes of Siphon coming back to a 1 range min, passives should also be better.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Enjoy your weekend !

Score : 11158

 

shyvanillacra#1074|2021-08-15 12:11:50
shyvanillacra#1074|2021-08-15 12:11:50




Other classes just ask little amount of requirement, which can be naturally gained, easily obtained or even no-requirement.



The reason why 5 out of the 6 classes that you mentioned (except for masq) have passives with no drawbacks is because they haven't been reworked yet according to the new system (buff & debuff). So yeah they still have very safe and solid spells without any real downside, but I'm pretty sure they'll be modified when their turn comes.

I agree with most of your points but I think it is better to avoid those comparisons for the sake of a better rework.

I hope too that Concern gets an improvement by the end of the Beta. First I thought it was a decent passive, it sound balanced to give a class that can teleport anywhere in the map a passive that reduced their MP by half (because of the portals), but in reality (and in general imo) passives that reduce your MP are very punishing in late game. I think the debuff should be changed into something else less crippling. 
3 -4
Score : 905

The changes made today where nice, especially to the water branch, but PLEASE, change Transient, DO NOT LET THAT PASS TO LIVE. Its bland, not worth a slot. No one will ever use it like that.

I will say the same thing about the Shield of the end and Sword of the beginning. This passives have such cool names, why make it so simple?

Valve passive has a cool concept already, this one just need an different effect. Maybe change effects depending on the ending portal of the spell cast, but dont just make life steal.

Maybe tune down a little the Resistance penalties on some passives?

Also, will say again what I said in the last comment: This update is an opportunity to give Eliotrope more mechanics to destroy portals via passives. We have 3 spells doing it already, and this can work with the new changes.

3 0
Score : 749

Hello, here are my thoughts about the second iteration of the Eliotrope revamp from a PvE only perspective. I will only focus on things I'm unhappy with to not waste anyone's time, but in general there have been some good changes.

1. General thoughts

So with the changes to the calm WP regeneration it appears you want damage oriented Eliotropes to rely on portal destruction, so essentially to forgo the mobility from portals. I'm generally fine with this, but my main concern is that Elio builds that want to keep the portals are now forced into calm for the WP regeneration and there's honestly not much to do with our AP in calm besides repositioning portals, using a couple of (below) average positioning skills or tickling enemies with our reduced damage. This can be remedied by making calm more attractive and you can find some suggestions in my thoughts about Time Breach, Prevention and Clash below.

2. Bugs first, because there are some major ones that make testing difficult:

Major

  • The WP regeneration in exalted when losing a portal doesn't work;
  • The +3 WP passives don't work at all. If you go down to 3 WP you can't use your remaining WP for anything and it doesn't even count for exalted.

Minor
  • When moving a portal with Pulsation/Ardent Aegis while having the Space and Time passive, the moved portal becomes permanent;
  • The Hiding backstab bug still persists (can't backstab when attacking directly but can backstab through portals).

3. Thoughts about spells and passives

Wakmeha
Damage is too low to be usable in PvE and it is water's only high cost distance spell (2 and 3 AP spells are very WP inefficient). I get what you're trying to do but there are way too few cases where the armor piercing is relevant, so trying to balance the spell around those just makes it awful in every other case. Just make it 25-27 dmg/ap (and reduce the damage to armor to 50% or straight up remove the armor piercing if you think it's op) and call it a day. Most importantly, it's a shame to have the coolest animation of the class be wasted on an extremely niche spell that we will rarely use.

Time Breach
Would it be possible to separate the two effects into two active abilities? This is our only mobility spell and because of that we rarely have the luxury to use the second effect on an ally which is a shame because it has the potential to be very interesting to use and an extra thing to use our AP on in calm.

Prevention
The spell is already niche enough and has too many limitations, so would it be possible to reduce its cooldown to once per turn (it applies "In Recovery" anyway so we can't spam it) and increase the effect when it triggers so the ally doesn't die immediately after getting resurrected? A wild suggestion is to add a passive that grants final damage but reduces resistances of the target affected by Prevention for some risk/reward type of playstyle.

Clash
Would it be possible to have some bonus utility effect on the calm version? It's very plain and we're not looking to deal damage in calm anyway so it has no purpose in its current state and a utility effect can be an extra reason to stay in calm. Example effects it can have are: a (small) resistance penalty; a damage penalty; a debuff on the enemy that gives lifesteal to the allies attacking that enemy; a buff of any kind on allies hit (with the damage on allies being removed of course).

Therapy
Looks very low value and overcosted for its effect. An AP cost would be more fitting for such a spell and it will give us something to do with our AP in calm. We are trying to regenerate our WP in calm after all.

Flood
Please remove the self healing on the calm version because it interferes with berserking and it's one of the very few things we can actually do in calm. You can readd the healing on a passive of some sort.

Hiding
Consider increasing the cast per target to 2, because the spell already has the drawback of being 3 AP which is WP inefficient in exalted.

Siphon
The spell still looks extremely weak to me. The calm version is just a 1 cell push with no damage (or any effect for that matter) and the exalted version is unattractive because it's a 2 AP spell so it drains WP too quickly. The same applies to Whirlwind.

Rage Passive
The 75 resistance penalty is very rough especially coupled with Effervescence for a grand total of -125 resistance! Would it be possible to change the penalty into a 15% melee damage taken? It would be essentially the same value as -75 resistance, but in melee so it can be played around and won't be nearly as punishing.

Concern Passive
The MP halving drawback is straight up unworkable for Eliotropes because we have no mobility spells outside of Time Breach and portals require MP to utilize for mobility. This type of drawback worked fine for the Xelors because they have the option to use WP to move and have access to decent mobility spells. Consider changing the drawback to something else or at the very least to a flat MP reduction so we could maybe offset it through itemization.

Valve and Reminiscence Passives
Both are relatively low value with big drawbacks, so to me they appear very unappealing in their current state.

Interstellar Passive
The drawback, coupled with how our WP regeneration works now, make this passive impractical, because it effectively halves our WP gain in exalted. Unless you intended this to be used in some kind of damage oriented calm build, I don't think it will find any use.

Thank you for reading.
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