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[1.60 Feedback] Rogue

By [Flatops] - ADMINISTRATOR - May 08, 2018, 10:05:05
AnkaTracker
Hello everyone,

Please post your feedback here for the Rogue changes.
First Ankama intervention

Replying to emelance

Hi emelance,

It will be soon, we'll let everyone know when it is ready.

Update: It's in the Beta now, enjoy!
See message in context
Reactions 61
Score : 716
Is the beta open for the Rogue rework? 
0
Hi emelance,

It will be soon, we'll let everyone know when it is ready.

Update: It's in the Beta now, enjoy!
Score : 3073
Why remove smoke? after listing it as a skill last we heard about it.

Also, Boombot is a really cool idea/tool. Limiting it to 1 turn (i understand it can do a lot more now) just feels like a lost opportunity. 
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Score : 977
If i remember correctly in  the GAMAKNA they said something about invisibility for rogue and i thought it was the smoke spell. but yeah they just forgot about it i guess
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Score : 29
The bomb-related passives and actives are cool, but where are the direct damage passives? the only sinergy we have now to do direct damage is the treachrogue, with 5 stacks we get a new spell that costs 4 AP and mimics the last combo, but where are the critical resistance reduction? we lost 300 critical mastery for no reason, and there is no firewall bonus anymore, forcing us to be all-in at bombs, we need a crit based build since the fire and air branch are focused on direct damage, we don't have anything to improve them, only to improve bombs! Almost every DD class has some kind of increase in critical hits, in the late game if you want to squeeze the most out of your damage, critical hits are the way to go, and I don't see anything regarding that on this rework. In my opinion, the bombs are really cool now, really nailed that, but the "rework" only gives one viable course of action, hopefully, some things will be addressed by the time it hits live servers smile
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Score : 307
Air's the best branch at the moment, and the only thing they use bombs for is getting around. Bombs are worse then they've ever been right now. This situation is pretty disheartening.
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Score : 307
Was gonna rant, but I'm just gonna make a list of things I don't like and changes that I think would help.
  • Increase the pull of Tir Croisé (Cross Fire) to 4 cells minimum. It makes no since how you went from what barbed-fire does now to this.
  • Keep magnetic claw as it is on live. Having to stand next to a bomb to move it and only being able to move it in the direction your facing is too restrictive.
  • Replace hp on bombs with charges or give rogues a way to significantly mitigate damage done to them for a turn. I can barely keep my bombs alive for a single turn in PvE which was exactly what I feared when you first mentioned it.
  • Increase the base damage of bombs while decreasing the effect of the combo bonus, or ramp up how fast combo builds greatly. This is one of the big problems with my bomb rogue now. It take forever just to reach what I can pull off in turn one on live, and you given me nothing to make up for it
  • Make firewall stronger. It's pointlessly weak and it cost too much.
  • Combine the effects of Lunette de visée (Scope) and Gadgets évolués (Evolved Gadgets). Make it so it reduces the max range of all the affected spells and makes them modifiable. Not sure if you hate ranged rogues or what, but it just seems a bit punitive to have dedicate 2 passive slots just so we can operate at a comfortable distance. Ranged glass-cannons do exist.

In conclusion you took a lot away from current bombs rogues and made random stuff worse for seemingly no reason without giving us anything in return.

That's all I got for now.
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Score : 296
I want to know:  Are the people behind the  rogue revamp actually passionate about the rogue as a class? (*Looks at the cra revamp*) Or is Ankama anti-range classes...

I can see a lot of us level 200 rogues being *slightly* agitated replacing our really expensive, fully runed legendary, relic and epic items to fit the *new and improved* close combat rogue.  Guess that's par for the course. Or we can class change to something else...
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Score : 759
No jokes, I'm literally baffled and dumb-struck by what happened to bombs.

-Mob AI will just swing at whatever has the least resistance, which just so happens to be bombs, EVERY time. So, there goes any hopes of setting anything up over the course of a couple turns.

-From what I have heard the bomb damage is absolutely crap, even with charges stacked. IF you're lucky enough to have a bomb around long enough to stack some charges..

-Need passives just to have modifiable range on bomb placement??

There are so many separate moving parts into making bombs work, and even then it doesn't work so well. There's very little payoff for time invested in setup.

I want to see bombs come with a little better protection built-in. I want to see bomb placement modifiable without passive. I would like to see a better tool-kit for the Rogue to move bombs, mobs, and whatever else around. I want to see bombs do MASSIVE damage after they've been nurtured over the course of a few turns with thought-out setup. Give Rogue's bombs the respect they deserve.
10
Score : 307
This, 1000x this.
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Score : 100
i play rogue from they relize and after this update i wil drop it... now do some rework for eni and eca and i  delete this game without tear =_= realy what use of bombs in game whea dps is all 
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Score : 14784
They did to bombs what they do to summons
Anytime you can summon more than one thing that class instantly gets nerfed into a "you have to set up 100 things perfectly to do damage"

They basically became a new sadida
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Score : 16290
I don't think Botte deserves a spell slot as it's currently designed. It's an appropriate & useful effect, but it's so constrained in utility I think it should either be a free 3rd bar spell like Detonate, or unlocked by another spell or passive.

Magnetic Claw would be a better fit. A multi-purpose positioning spell would help out a lot.

Other observations:
  • Crossfire's kinda hilariously limited and weak right now, don't you think?
  • For as cool & fun as the Connection mechanic is.. why is it so underutilized & under-supported by spells & passives?
  • The amount of damage bombs do is completely opaque. Like, it's impossible to compare bombs to more typical damage spells because we can't even see their base damage anywhere.
  • I'm not a fan of Bomb Powder behaving like Feca's glyphs. A trap like effect, or area denial effect would feel more appropriate for the class.
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Score : 307
Here's two ideas to help with our bomb's survivability.
  1. Give bombs an innate defense to AoE damage like Sadida's dolls.
  2. Give us a new spell, or make it a part of a current spell, that when used divides all damage inflicted to a bomb to all the bombs in play for a turn or two.
1
Score : 16290
Making sure the bombs have decent resistances should be plenty. I don't think even sadida's dolls should have that 50% AOE reduction.

I think the game needs more situations where AOEs are a meaningful counterplay, not less.
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Score : 110
Dynamite seems to buff enemies with 10x % final damage (x depends on the bombs exploded) if i target them with it. Is this intended?

Bugs:
-Badabang cannot be used on allies other than Boombot. 

-Powder does not scale damage from targeted bomb's Combo.

-Dynamite does not allow bombs to explode upon KO.


Suggestions:
-Boot seems overly costly, and the Rogue lost all ability to move non-bomb targets except through Boombot which has a four-turn cool down. How about making Boot push non-bomb targets?

OR how about adding a connection "push target" to a spell?
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Score : 16290
RE: Dynamite applying a buff to the target..

Are you using the K-Boom passive? Because that's what it does. Dynamite's supposed to be cast on a bomb normally, but with the passive you can cast it on characters to give them the K-Boom state. K-Boom then stabilizes the target, makes them immune to bomb damage and gives them a 1 turn damage bonus for each bomb that goes off with them in the area.

You're not supposed to cast Dynamite on enemies, except maybe to stabilize them.
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Score : 307
Also make bombs deal indirect damage again. Bomb play was hit with a multifaceted nerf, so I don't see why they deserve to lose that functionality as well. To be honest this nerf in particular basically destroyed any hope of decent bomb-focused strategies in Zinit content.
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Score : 110
 
Gelgy|2018-05-10 02:30:20
 except maybe to stabilize them.


Weird, I can't seem to reply to gelgy. Anyway.

this is mainly why I was wondering - I forsaw myself using K-Boom Dynamite mostly on the enemy. It just seemed weird, since Cra doesn't have any detriments to their stabilization and Feca stabilizes two targets at least (self and target) in exchange for the -mp. Not to mention they -mp the target also. 
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Score : 16290
When replying to a reply you have to reply to the original post. Yeah, it's weird.

Anyway: I think k-boom is applying stabilize as a buff rather than as a debuff. The fact that it's primary effect is making the target immune to bombs already kinda limits the primary case where rogue might want to stabilize an enemy.

Feca, unlike Rogue, is a tank and is trying to keep the Provoked target locked, which is why their spell works like it does.

I don't think Rogue's supposed to have an efficient spell for single target immobilization.
0
Score : 83
I'm glad to see one of my favorite classes get reworked considering I've generally been happy with the results when it happens (even if it takes longer as it did with enu). Having said that, I do understand the mostly horrified initial response given that in many ways it doesn't feel like the same class (maybe especially for those of us who were mostly using bombs for the wall of fire), and even with the giant and apparently-exhaustive list of all the new abilities and effects, there's still a certain lack of clarity on a lot of what's going on.

I am actually just going to assume for the sake of less obvious things that bombs having 0 resistances on beta currently is a mistake, because to my knowledge there isn't anything in the game right now which is both expected to survive a single round (ever), and relies purely on health to do so. There are some really weird implications for health-stealing abilities there, among other things.

My biggest complaint about rogue in its previous state and what I was hoping to see change was mostly the balance of power. The wall of fire in tandem with the bomber fan passive was actually just disgusting, but for the most part the moveset that you were buffing up to a hilarious degree through that and fusillade felt needlessly awkward; or at least, needless if those buffs weren't so strong. So you felt fine with the right setup (at times too good), and extremely clunky and underwhelming without. So now that the self-maintaining wall of fire and previous bomber fan are history, it definitely feels like you have more choices and less constraints for how you actually approach different fights with kind of an air-primary style as I continue to be prone to, and better (personal) mobility to boot.

That said, I have definite concerns about whether it can actually compete with the old version in most cases, and a lot of that has to do with, as Heartless said, what feels like extremely limited support from the passives for a style that de-emphasizes playing more around bombs. I get that it's a mechanic that was intended to become more central to the class, and I'm even prepared to embrace it to a certain extent assuming the usability is reasonable (the ramping damage is theoretically absurd, but the likelihood of actually getting to it feels flimsy right now for reasons I'll get into later), but as it stands now there's essentially only a single passive that is truly independant of the bombs aside from some weirdly-potent team support effects which feel like a very odd capability even aside from crowding out a core that just isn't there.

In the larger scope I'm still concerned about the balance of power, albeit on different front. As with the previous bomber fan next to (and largely compensating for) clunky abilities, the vast majority of both the elemental and active abilities feel either extremely good or extremely bad. The new piercing shot, for instance, is uniquely absurd in a way reminiscent of wp-stacking ougi silliness, but even they really have to commit to that and there's all kinds of peripheral punishment when anything goes wrong. The rest of the fire branch, by contrast feels extremely bad to have to use if you can stand to at all. Similarly, for a class that is now so built around clever bomb management, it feels completely miserable to be stuck with boot and cross fire for positioning bombs without (large) cooldowns as they are both expensive (in more ways than one) as well as severely limited (very much the same sad story for powder wall). Contrast once again to boomerang dagger being uncomplicatedly amazing.

Speaking of crit weirdness and kind of on the side, I was hoping we could get clarification on whether barbecued ribs is intended to be unable to crit. Given the semi-apparent impression that they're trying to support both extremes of crit builds and its insane combo damage I am guessing it is, but to my knowledge it would be the first case of same on an instant, direct damage spell, and all the more surprising to do that with an air branch.

So now I'll admit that despite playing rogue almost as long as I've played wakfu since its release, I probably know much less than most people here about the previous feel of bomb-centric builds, as dropping the wall of fire has historically been all I wanted from them. So my thoughts on the way they're working on beta now are fairly independant of any meaningful comparison to the previous case. I will say I was actually very surprised to find that the total combo effect of a chain explosion can exceed the individual bomb's limit (ie 2 same-element 15-combo bombs chaining together appears to make each explosion 30), though I haven't tested enough to know if there's some other unwritten cap. For clarity, the base damage of a bomb (same for each I believe) appears to be around 54 at level 200 (they sort of say as much in the main post but they use an odd shorthand, "(2 AP) Earth Damage" seems to mean "roughly standard earth damage for 2 ap", so in that case around 50 at level 200 given that standard should be 1 ap for 25 damage at level 200). The boom bot's reconversion ability also lets you get an extra full-combo bomb out immediately, as well as go over the 3 cast limit if you use it to make a 4th (unclear whether intentional). The fact that the combo mechanic and the boom bot's contribution is so liberal means even a 2nd-turn detonation could involve 3 bombs detonating as 24-combo each despite being well short of their potential and without investing any of the elemental spells that increase stacks. The way they feed on each other and how little ap you actually need to spend to get them cooking (and exploding) makes the potential hilariously efficient. The problem, as I see it, is the peripherals.

As mentioned before, even assuming you successfully protect multiple bombs for multiple turns (at present, a terrible assumption), your means to position them properly by yourself for the big boom (even if you already placed them aggressively, which is even less likely to have them survive) are severely limited. The only 2 with any reliability amount to ruse, on a 3 turn cooldown and only good for 1 bomb, and boom bot, who you probably used on turn 1 and has a 4 turn cooldown. As an air-obsessed player with an excess of positioning support on most of my teams, it seems possible, if still awkward, to make it work, but it definitely doesn't feel like a class this built around the idea should need that much help. The result still isn't anything resembling a flexible one.

I think that about does it for the whining, so on to the good stuff. I absolutely love that you have a way to focus explosions on a single target now, as friendly fire issues were probably the biggest turnoff for me before (my main team loves fustercluck). Likewise, for a class made of melee and lineshots, accessible, efficient (and very flashy) mobility improvements feel super good. Real choices in air especially on top of some really fun combo potential with evanescence is definitely something I'm looking forward to (digging the durability frills for going melee-ham as well). Also while it doesn't really feel like you have room to play with it considering how much is being asked of him at the moment, the boom bot's panda-throwing of real targets definitely has some fun applications (as that capability always has). Giving an ally a (potentially monstrous) damage buff for sparing him the consequences of his otherwise-unfortunate position is also a cute idea, though I'm still not convinced it's the right thing to create a passive over as it stands at the moment. Lastly, I think it's a good call to offer real support for both full-crit and non-crit builds, as that's always sort of been a weird dichotomy rogues were faced with, and while I wouldn't feel confident saying all the pieces are there just yet, the boomerang dagger weirdness is definitely a good start.

So that should about do it for me, cheers to those who survived the text wall, and here's to hoping the revamp's looking as good as it deserves when it hits live.
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Score : 29
thanks for mentioning me, really flattered here smile, I agree with everything you said, I am a firewall user too, we just lost the ability to increase our critical %, our damage %, the critical resistance reduction and lost our initiation buffs ( 300 dodge/critical mastery)!!!, that's just absurd, we got nothing in return. This new "Long Sword" is not a good reward for doing 5 combos, if we still had all that we lost, oh man, we would be godlike tier damage dealers with "connexions"! so much potential lost there. sad
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Score : 117
1. The wall of Fire to me is very useful, especially doing stasis 50 runs as it helps contain the enemy, and now it's gone.
2. I played the rogue because of its versatility in terms of damage but unfortunately, its gone now because you overemphasized in using bombs.
3. I have also observed that on your revamps, you making the revamp characters into "Hog Wakfu" users seriously??.
4. Removing the ability to backstab is a loss to the rogue's ability to shine in later dungeons especially in zinit where some monster require to do backstab damage. 
5. Bombs with 20% hp will not survive in zinit yow! 
6. Removing Pulsar would make it difficult to nuke those chunky tanky monsters in zinit. 

 
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Score : 66
I'll start off on a good note - I love some of the ideas implemented in the rogue revamp. The mobility is pretty top notch and the stabilize is nice, and I enjoy the connection effects quite a bit; however, rogue seems to be pretty subpar in terms of damage, which makes it not really that worth it to bring to dungeons over something like a iop. 

I also found it pretty counter intuitive that the update was said to be centered around bombs... But bomber rogue is god awful. With the limited cost of 1 type of bomb per turn, no big "burst" bomb like a mega, and a rogue basically having no control in moving their bombs on their own... 

Oof. 

There's nothing rogue can really do to move their bombs to an enemy under conventional means or to pull enemies to their bombs, which pretty much kills the use of bombs as a source of damage, unless of course you have a panda travelling around with you all the time. Mass charm seems kind of mandatory on any kind of build on revamped rogue, and a non-class specific spell like that shouldn't really be mandatory on any class - just something extra. 
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Score : 328
A suggestion for skill: "Smoke Curtain" would be a barrier that would block the view. It would be halfway to the wall of Huper only that it would draw range if it stepped
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Score : 152
I think itd make moar sense ohmy if the smoke bomb was a ranged aoe ability that when thrown on a spot makes their spells have their ability's min range then have it linger for a turn or 2 ohmy 
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Score : 66
I'll also add that hupper destroys armor for 2 ap whilst revamp rogue uses 6 ap and all of its remaining wp to take 3000 armor... Lmao

That cost seems a bit too high comparing it to other classes, and for the fact that rogue regenerates wp from blowing up bombs, of which are locked to 1 cast per turn. If you want 3 bombs, that takes up 3 spell slots. Doesn't really seem very well thought out if I'm honest.
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Score : 152
its not just the armor uk the idea of it is that rouge gains a lot of wp from bombs and then uses the -wp skill to nuke them as well as destroy armor
-1
Score : 307
One of the big problems with bombs is that they take too long to ramp up. I get that it needs to be this way since you've made them so cheap, but these long build up times are not practical in real fights. One idea to fix this would be a passive that gives bombs on the field a boost to their combo for any AP we don't spend on our turn. 
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Score : 152
mmm it may seem that way but considering dynamite adds +10 combo claw adds+5combo (considering you have 12 ap 2 ap used to make the bomb) and boombott adds 4 combo it seems u can kinda explode a bomb with the full 15 combo on turn 2 or even turn 1. plus bombs damage aren't based on the amount of bombs so 1 bomb with 15 combo can equal 3 bombs with 5 combo each and they'll probably be the same amount of damage ohmy
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