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[1.59 Feedback] Enutrof

By [Flatops] - ADMINISTRATOR - March 05, 2018, 05:21:27
Hello everyone,

Please post your feedback here for the Enutrof changes.
Reactions 22
Score : 67
I like the changes, except:
I still think that you need return more range on Drhellzerker, 3 it's not enough, need 5-6, no buff for running and in this situation I do not want to running.
Need add any escape from enemies, like old Prime of Life, or any else jump may be
, only on a dodge do not go far =(
Why did you remove PP accumulation, you removed % of PP from damage bt need accum pp! back this.
About this: 
Mine Mover
  • 1 AP
You need to use this 2 times per turn for recovery WP, and 1ap cost looks bad, may be
1 mp? 

Other +/- good.
Score : 7639
It's nice but I am missing some mobility spells on "the athletic elders", even 1 would be nice.
Maybe that iconic Ruel's "using an enemy's face as a stepping stone" jump?
Score : 402
Devw|2018-03-05 09:00:55
I like the changes, except:
I still think that you need return more range on Drhellzerker, 3 it's not enough, need 5-6, no buff for running and in this situation I do not want to running.
Need add any escape from enemies, like old Prime of Life, or any else jump may be
, only on a dodge do not go far =(
Why did you remove PP accumulation, you removed % of PP from damage bt need accum pp! back this.
About this: 
Mine Mover
  • 1 AP
You need to use this 2 times per turn for recovery WP, and 1ap cost looks bad, may be
1 mp? 

Other +/- good.

Score : 3807
Reposting here too, and adding some extra:

All in all, this seems very solid!
As some others have already mentioned, the most questionable aspect comes from the relative ease at hammering down enemies' resistances, down by 200 at that! I have no idea if this will be a new standard or anything, but such huge capped values and at such ease is pretty much making other classes capabilities to drain resistance along redundant.

As for my own personal nitpick: I think that you might have turned the dial a bit too far back in terms of mine manipulation, and it has especially hampered the Fire enutrof's identity and feel. There can definitely be a bit more tactical positioning involved, as the Enutrof is still considered a 2 star character, I hope.

Fire Spells don't interact very well with the mine debuff mechanic, as the resistance debuff is not spread along, and overal the fire spells also feel a bit unmechanical, despite having very nice shapes and ranges.
The other problem is that there is just not enough reason to have mines in specific places anymore, which indeed used to be a main mechanic for Fire.

Thus as a suggestion, please put a bit of mechanic back on Fire by having spells interact when centering on (different quality) mines, consuming them in the process.

On top of this, I just can't get behind giving Refinement a -AP ability. Its not part of Enutrof's role, and I'm sure something better/more cohesive could be designed for them. As it is it just feels like an uninspired homogenization on element roles, with things being added because 'we ran out of ideas'.
Please do something interesting with the notorious burst spell instead.
Score : 31
 I like the new mechanics and spell effects. A whole brach only for AOE spells are something I ever think how a good idea, but I really missed some others AOE spells in the other two branchs, cause with this mechanics AOE enutrofs are totally single element and this is a problem. Maybe with one spell for AOE in each of the others branchs make this problem solved.
Score : 3
 Hello, guys. Well, i'm here to congratulate the Dev Team. The new "way to play" of the enutrofs is a lot better and more fluid than before AND the debuff mechanics are a LOT MORE efficient. Only two sugestions: create a passive to, maybe, transform enutrofs range bonus in final damage or resistance when in Drhellzerker form AND remove the AP reduction effect in the spell Refinement or change that effect for something like stabilization, extra heavy (don't ne pushed, use moviment spells), etc... this way enutrofs can be more optimized in a lot of battles, and, needed to say, we are enutrofs not xelors, AP remove and us don't walk together kkkk.
Again, congrats.
Score : 16071
So far, I generally like the strength & speed of the new Enutrof. It's much simpler & less reliant on Mine Mover than the 1.56 Enutrof. In general it's a very fun class that I can see being very useful.

I do have some concerns with it:
  • I feel like the Fire spells are too weak, and have poor synergy with the new mechanics. While I like that the spells change with respect to casting angle, it doesn't have the fun dynamic fire Enutrof used to have with spells that transformed when cast on mines.
  • The Faking It passive and effect are too weak, and it sounds like Enutrof now skips a vulnerable turn, making the effect even weaker than before. I realize you guys don't want to redesign Faking It but the passive just keeps getting worse and worse.
  • The Drheller might be nice and sturdy, but they're also pretty much useless on turns while their mine finding spell is on cooldown.
  • Some passives (like Not Dead Yet & Faking It) might need additional work to be competitive with other options.

Some suggestions that might help:
  • Consider a mechanic for fire spells where if the Enutrof has a mine, instead of applying the Resistance debuff they apply another debuff. For example, Fusion could spend the "Mine" effect to apply -2 Range in its AOE. Meteor could spend a mine to get a larger & more powerful AOE, etc.
  • Either let the Drheller create mines more often, separate the mind creating and mine moving spell effects, OR give the Drheller some additional utility on the field. MP debuffs, or the ability to lock enemies would be handy.
I've got no idea what the best solution for Faking It would be.

EDIT: some more thorough suggestions for the fire spells:
  • If Enutrof has a mine:
  • > 10% extra damage
  • > -2 range in AOE
  • If Enutrof has a mine or cast on [mine]:
  • > Increases AOE size (X size 2, cross size 2)
  • > -50 elemental resistance in AOE
  • If cast on [mine]: Destroys the [mine]
  • [Caster][Ally]: Flaming (+[2-50] Lvls)

Little tweaks to add a little bit more dynamic action to the fire spells and make them more competitive with water & earth. I realize my meteor suggestion's pretty dang complicated but I think it would be intuitive in play.

Firedamp Explosion and Hot Magma are fine as-is.

I realize that Enutrof's fire AOEs have fairly strong damage ratios... but that was the case with Enutrof before and fire was the worst branch. In this iteration the fire spells might have respectable damage ratios, but they won't benefit from Enutrof's res removal effects, which represent a huge portion of the class's damage output. What's more, Meteor in this version requires line of sight again, making it inferior to both the old Firedamp Explosion and the version of Meteor we have on live.

If fire doesn't receive any changes before going live, some poor sap's going to try to play with all these fun AOEs only to end up being strictly weaker than a single target or melee Enutrof and wondering why they feel so weak.
Score : 16071
To expand on this commentary, let me clarify. There are other options for improving Fire spells, but they each have serious problems.

Option 1: Increase the damage ratio on fire AOEs to compensate for not getting the Resistance removal effect on the entire AOE.
Option 2: Make fire spells apply the resistance removal debuff in the entire AOE
Option 3: Create additional mechanics to make the fire spells worth casting with or without the mine benefits.

Option 1 is the obvious fix but it's a terrible idea. If you improved the damage ratios on fire spells by 10 or 20% to make them on par with Enutrof's single target damage effects, then they become grossly more efficient than Enutrof's single target spells! Fusion already has a damage ratio most classes don't see on AOEs. Also, even though most of the AOE doesn't benefit from mine debuffs, the target cell does, so Fusion, Meteor, and Hot Magma would become significantly more efficient when used like single target spells.

Option 2 is the other obvious solution, and it wasn't used on purpose, and I have no trouble seeing why. Again, removing resistance in an AOE is an incredibly strong effect. Enutrof's already looking like the strongest res debuffer in the game in this iteration, it doesn't need to be even better.

Option 3 is where I think the most potential is.
Score : 31
 Hi, again, guys. After a lot of tests i have made some concerns about all the new mechanics.
 Faking It continue being useless in a lot of ways. Maybe you can make the effect be triggered if the enutrof have Treasures and not ONLY on a mine.
 The Drheller don't locking enemys are a problem making the summon in some turns "useless". Maybe you can make the drheller have the same lock than the enutrof or give to him a spell to remove PM and/or a spell to remove range.
 The Drhellerzerker form need improvements, maybe with a passive. Actually you lose ALL your range bonus for nothing in change. Enutrofs don't gain anything from Control bonus AND, in drhellerzerk form, don't gain anything from Range bonus too.
Score : 16
i think the anutrof is a treasure hunter and this is the matter of his motivaitions
-please give me back the PP related with the game mechanics
-‎the small perfo has very long animations
-‎we need a jump spell, dodging is not enough
-‎currently the perfo is unusable,only works if you want to transforming
-‎what do you think if the perfo has 1 point of iniciative more than the enutrof?
-‎it can move objetivs and prepare the fiel for the anutrof's turn
-‎if i want to be an area range damage we only can use fire spells, make other spells work with diferents tipes of plays
-‎maybe you can do some area spells for earth's and water's spells and some single objective for the fire's spells
2PA for 2 pw ...
Score : 389
My regarding the  concern with this on skill "Refinement", 
It promises a "Heavy Single Target Damage", but does not seem to give the latter, 
on full burst in only deals around 3.9k on a 40% res potato, 50 treasure+ Gold -res debuff and 20% FD and my Enu is at lvl 200, in the past, it deals 9k it would be nice to tweak the damage a little bit, so that it will be usable on those tanky zinit mobs. 
not to mention the PP accunmilation is kinda off, only 50? 
I also noticed that Fat pouches are removed, would be nice if its reinstated. 
Score : 7639
Actually you get 15 innate PP, 15 more from the treasure hunter passive and another 50 from treasures, so you can get up to 80 more.
Score : 35288
My one suggestion after looking things over some more is if drhellzerker could get some form of teleport similar to the current one we have now

Something maybe less expensive than this one similar to classtanet on masqueraider and the iop's jump or srams teleport

I get that you want us to spend MP so we have less to attack with but a melee class needs some form of gap closer and the current rework on beta is lacking one (at least as far as I can see) 

It's not to hard to fit thematically either considering the drhellzerker could dig under ground or something I hope you guys take this into consideration otherwise the changes look really nice ^^ cheers

I've gotten so comfortable with using this thing to get around on my enu (mostly going through lines or enemies where it'd cost more than the spell to move there)

it'd just be really nice for us to have more ways to get around than just consuming mp
Score : 16071
In general: I like the idea of Drhellzerker having at least a couple unique mechanics, just to make the form more interesting.

could be a swap! could be a jump! (the new Ember would actually be an oddly good fit for that)
Score : 7639
I think a good spell to add would be:

Spring step, water (or earth or special)
Cost: 3 ap 1MP, 3 casts per turn
Range: 2 linear (4 with not dead yet), not modifiable, requires line of sight
On enemies: mediocre damage
Enutrof form: Teleports you behind the enemy, or in front if the cell is blocked (or maybe just a random adjacent cell
Dhrellzerker form: -1 MP? Or maybe just dashes to the enemy.

Alternatively it could do damage in a 1 cell cross AoE so it isn't too similar to the sram spell. Could replace ember as a fire spell cause it's a weird spell anyway.
Score : 16071
You know. I feel bad saying this but the more I think about it the more I think it's the case: I think the new mine mechanics are a miss.

They're very strong and support some interesting game play, but in practice they also have a much narrower design space and represent an uncomfortably large portion of Enutrof's damage effects.

I think something a bit like the older mine mechanics (pre Enutrof revamp) might just have more design space, even with the overall changes to the class's spells. I'm not sure what the best iteration of that would look like, but it would at least allow for the Drheller to do something useful every turn and for the Enutrof's fire spells to have their old fun back.

I'm worried the biggest source of positive reaction to the new enutrof is just how strong the new mine mechanic is. But if the mechanic proves overpowered or too centralizing and needs to be nerfed, then I think you will start facing some serious problems.

I hope I'm wrong.

In more digestible format:
  • The mine placement restrictions, which are necessary given the strength of these mines, create counter intuitive situations.
  • The mechanic has poor interaction with AOEs.
  • There's not a good, intuitive way to implement better interactions between AOEs and the new mine mechanic.
  • The strength of the mine mechanic relies on giving Enutrof one of the game's strongest effects practically for free.
  • It is better in that Enutrof is less completely reliant on Mine Mover for core effects.

I do think, however:
  • The changes to enutrof's water & earth spells mostly work great!
  • I think the constraints on looting mechanics are appropriate, though bags aren't working on beta.
  • Drhellzerker is better implemented than on live.
Score : 268
  • Mine Mover needs to be 1mp instead 1ap, flows better like old school enu
  • Drheller needs to be 1wp, 3ap cost is too high, breaks combos and damage. Eca summon cost 1wp I don't know why Drheller wouldn't be.
  • I would like to summon more Drhellers than just 1 this would help more on keeping mines out, also Eca get to summon as many meow summons as control they have, should be the same for Enu.
  • Instead of 3ap should be 1ap or 3mp seismic wealth, reason is I'm setting up mines to get max damage boost then have pay 3ap which breaks good combos that can be used after. Though i can see 1ap being to strong but the set up for it balance that out.
  • Need to give the first 2ap attack spells effects maybe something like -range for fire, -ap for water, -mp for earth or create mines where they hit even under a enemy when it hits. Right now their just attacks that cost 2ap.
  • 1ap Debt instead of 2ap
  • I would like for the enu to gain 100 prospecting and in drhellzerker mode gain 100 resist. Also would like the Prospecting to stay permanent unless their a boost for using it.
  • Think it would be nice if one of the passive gave mp to enu like 2mp max. Maybe like Not dead yet passive giving 1mp per 100 prospecting with 200 prospecting being the max for 2mp
  • Enu need a push spell badly, maybe make Clumsiness active spell do it so it -3 mp and push enemy
That's all i can think right now, oh also fire branch needs work but I never used fire much so I don't know what would be good way to fix it. i let my fire enu people comment on that.
Score : 3807
Agreed with basically all of the above.
The new Enutrof is solid, but also incredibly bland in its current design.
Worse though, the entire reason the class is solid is coming from its ability to drain resistance both easy and hard.

The biggest worry for me is that the Enutrof is simply the first class having been adjusted to reduce resistance this hard. Just imagine that they upscale the relevant resistance breaking spells as part of the Ecaflip or Sadida kit, and suddenly the Enutrof becomes entirely redundant again.

Hence, I agree that the effects that mines should apply should be more specific and casually applicable based on the element used. For instance, using a Water spell after collecting a mine could increase prospecting/DPS, using a Fire spell would reduce range and using Earth would reduce MP. Furthermore, these effects could be applied in smaller values as part of AoE effects, which each element should have access to.

To summarize my problems (And yes, some of these problems overlap but need to be highlighted individually, so pardon recurring wording):
  • - The current resistance draining part of the Mine mechanic is too extreme a mechanic and carries the entire worth of the class in its current design. There is the possibility that the mechanic will make the Enutrof redundant if other classes acquire similar improved resistance draining mechanics.
  • - Not enough Area of Effect spells spread on the Enutrof, and a complete lack of support on such a role, despite always having been a part of the Enutrof
  • - Fire effectively being the only branch for Area of Effect spells, lacking both support in passives and mechanics entirely, making the entire branch bland, uninspired and perhaps simply bad to use.
  • - Overly simplified vision for the Enutrofs mechanic causing a lot of spells overal to feel bland and uninspired. There is so much room for creative design, yet it almost feels like time constraint or boredom kicked in halfway throughout the design.

I honoustly expected that the current version of the Enutrof would be fixed, as there were parts that people liked, and parts that people disliked. All it took was the time and effort to try and work with the suggestions the community provided.
Right now the wheel got turned by 180 degrees again, and piece by piece I am starting to feel like I am losing the identity and fun which made me enjoy the classic Enutrof to begin with. Please take some suggestions into consideration that the community provides, that way you don't need to experiment constantly with revamps and hope for a lucky working result.
Score : 1551
Do WHY all fire are turn into area and all water and earth just only single target?
Score : 1339
Can actually go with distance mastery to be able to use both tongue
Score : 2671
I have not been able to test Enutrof at the level I wanted, but what I have seen up to now,
I for sure like this Enutrof more than the one that is released on the Live Servers!

As a resource hunter, I am extremely pleased that now there is a mechanic to make the monster drop their pouch before their death.
This solves the issue of being impossible to drop bags from the last monster in the fight, like the Boss on the Frozen Tower, that because the mechanics forced to kill the Boss last.
Now we can get a pouch from ALL target-able monsters!
Thanks! happy
Score : 167
like only zerker enu user 
enu dont have push/pull skills or teleport like before + mp(spells from enu to zerker before you get +2mp+ "prime of life" get you+2mp for 1wp) or extra resist stable for zerker tank now is reduced to 50 resist  used by some spells
( for those who do not know zerker was geting 50 resist +50 resist from full pp before all remavps if you hunt resist)

still lack to be stabilized like all melee classes ability

before on old enu my general resist was 863 now i cant get for 2 elements 800 and new zerker i tink will be less resist

to separate enu and zerker  (old)

 -enu was mapper, support someone bild it like range damager

-zerker back damager,tank or hit and run never have damage to stand in front all other melee  classes

and now

-enu water useless, can be support, hard to see good enu this days (more is like this "hey party i  m digging wp points and i will join when i get enough to hit monster 2 times" voice out of the background )

-zerker have a lot mobility because spells are reduced in mp, can be close combat ,have shild, mostly aoe is best combo

on update 1.59

-enu is 1 word great have - resist dont must to hunt wp and fire/water and earth have meaning and they can be combined have also a great heal not poor like before and passives also great

-zerker i already tell what missing and to add "faking it" now is useless

something looks wrong with this last 2 enu zerkers updates

dont get me wrong 1.59 update is enu perfect but zerker missing a lot and i didnt start to play this class because is pretty or like more enu then zerker
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