FR EN ES PT
Browse forums
Bumped

[1.57 Feedback] Player VS Player Revamp

By [Flatops] - ADMINISTRATOR - November 23, 2017, 05:01:32
AnkaTracker
Hi everyone,

Please post your feedback here for the PVP Revamp.

Note that PvP will not be available for testing on the Beta's initial update this 24 November. 

As of 30 November, the battlefields are now available for testing.
0
Reactions 27
Score : 2607
My Feedback so far...

The Good
-The new system puts and end to Player Killers.
-Inclusive system that urges everyone to participate and provides benefits to pvp and pve players.
-Promotes Teamfights over 1v1.
-Lvl Brackets promote everyone being able to participate.

The Bad
-Puts and end to Opens-World PvP (some of us did not PK, we just liked to fight and the freedom).
- Outlaws have no way to be punished at the moment.
-No meaning to be a Guard or Outlaw.

The Unknown
- How often will Prims be open for battle? (I hope it is often enough that everyone can participate throughout the day)
-Where are the Prims located?
-How do we enter Prim/Battlefields?
-A lot of blurry information at the moment, will need to wait for more updates.
-Game modes need to be tested/balanced.
-Certain team compositions must be rebalanced or limited.

The Solution

I shall create a scenario to explain my solution...

     The Prim of Kelba (assuming it has one) is controlled by Riktus. The Bonuses tied to Kelba go to Riktus. All are welcome in the area, but if someone becomes an Outlaw (If someone ruins the ecosystem and does not fix it within 5min, they become an Outlaw), they will not be allowed to use any transportation services. Only Outlaws can be attacked by Guards, Outlaws may not attack first.
     All Riktus Members and its allies that enter Kelba will be given a compass (similar to the quest compass but different look) that notifies them of an Outlaw in the Vicinity, it could also be a notification when entering the area etc.
    When the Outlaw is killed by a Riktus/Allied Guard, then the Outlaw is given a debuff called "Prisoner" that either bans the Outlaw from re-entering Kelba for 1-3hrs OR does not allow them to touch any resources until time passes.

What does this Solution Accomplish?
-Allows the Guard/Outlaw system to coexist with the new Battlefields.
-Makes the PvP even more inclusive of our World of Twelve.
-Allows people to PvP even though the Battlefield is closed at the moment.
4
Score : 7454
Pre-Beta Tested Feedback:

On paper all the ideas proposed sound relatively interested. I have always been curious why we only have titles and no name plate borders like Dofus has, but the "new wings" idea sounds like a similar name plate design as done in Dofus. Losing 'Open World' PVP is definitely a low blow to all those who are used to the traditional style of PVP we've grown to use regularly. I think it was a rather lazy way to deal with the issue at hand which is, 'Im lvl 20 why did I just get pub stomped by a 200.' For now I think removing open world PVP was a smart idea and it never really fit into how Wakfu is designed, but I would like to see a reimplementation of its style some way some how in the future. Personal fix for it would be to have a Nation Showing wing, and an 'active' version of wings as well showing who can be pulled, and fought for small merit, and who is winged up but not pull-able. Simply put, 2 versions of wings. One that shows people looking for Open World combat, and those who are not. One if pull-able, and one is not.

Beyond the 'Open World' factor:

The game modes idea sounds relatively intriguing, but more or so like a mini-game. I take this in the terms of Runescape PVP, or World of Warcraft PVP. Runescape had what was called 'the wilderness' where if you die, or kill you drop your gears and etc. The wilderness was the prime example of real PVP. Meanwhile they also had mini-game types of PVP such as castle wars. This is where you pick a side and defend your castle in a capture the flag battle. The option to choose between TRADITIONAL, and non-traditional PVP was the reason for that explanation. I believe that if you force people into playing a capture the flag game mode through a cycle for example, Capture the Flag Monday, Carve the Turkey Tuesday, Traditional Combat Wednesday, Protect The Castle Thursday. That won't work. You need to consider not only the people who despise Open World PVP, but those who enjoyed its values as a PVP system. We need the option, and I understand that with a small player base such as Wakfu that giving a choice may increase que times or activity in certain game modes, but not having the option will make PVP a stupid side mini-game, and ruin PVP entirely.

I will be looking to come back to this thread with much better feedback come its upload onto beta. For now these are my first impressions based entirely off the devblog.
-4
Score : 16708
PROS -

-Possibly could be a very interesting set of game modes
-Could become inclusive to the lower level player base who has nothing to do
-Might be a cute novelty.

CONS -

-Removal of open world pvp removes any level of realism, immersion, stress, challenge, and stakes from the game.
People will now be able to farm big fat flashyboy wings without any consequence or deficit.
-There will be no real incentive to PvP. As the game is, people PvP so they can beat someone. Friendly duels, yeah, might be a cute fun thing, however there's literally no point if they don't tombstone or have a decline button.
-This may force alienation of your pvping playerbase as well as your pveing playerbase depending on how this new system is implimented. Huge possibiliy to drop the ball and ruin everything, and huge risk of ruining the fun for others.
-No driving force that tells you to win. PvP in the current gameIs a life or death struggle. If you lose, you die in game. It's not punishing, but it's shameful and embarrassing. You don't want to die in a game. Especially not infront of other people, and ESPECIALLY not because of other people. It's not clear if a loss in the new system causes a tombstone, however.
-Forced level ranges means that players who can afford to shell out more dosh for equip and stats slots have the clear advantage, which again alienates your F2P player base.
-Top guilds will not have any opposition, as they can easily beat low level players & experienced, veteran pvpers will be able to easily beat any team of opponents, as I'm sure has been displayed multiple times.
-Nightly resets makes it into YET ANOTHER daily, making it daily #30 or something.

Final thoughts.

PVP is the only reason I, and many people like me, play this game.

Please understand, no one enjoys grinding. Not one single person grinds and is like "man I am SO glad I have to do this to get anywhere!"

But grinding is pretty much all there is. If you aren't grinding you're sitting around, duelling, or buying/selling things to circumvent the grind. That's it.

I don't play this game for the grind. Nor do i play this game to have the best gear and brag about being the best (although i am known for it).

I grind hours, days, weeks, months on end, to become as optimal as possible, so I can kill people, freely. For 5 long years, that is how I chose to play this game. You are now removing that choice, my only option now is to grind. Which isn't fun.

If somehow the beta convinces me that the battlegrounds are not only fun, but inclusive, have clear gains and rewards, but also have been very concisely executed while providing huge accessibility and incentive to everyone, and also maintain PvP's STAKES, then sure I'll stick around.

But removing the attack button is basically game over for me. Why would I pick up this game? It's just a grind.
-9
Score : 8057
there are some words in ur sand =3
0
Score : 82
is there any chance we 4 nation players keep the right to open world pvp,and make the neutral nation immuned from pvp?that would at least keep some pvp.if open world pvp  is disappeared then all we have is like battlefield game(which sounds fun but definitely not what pvp is all about)
2
Score : 1892
Well, from what I can read in the devblog I'd like to say this:

Disabling Open-World PvP (meaning making PvP completely optional) may be one of the best decisions Akama has made lately.
It removes player killings (which is annoying when you're a new player and exploring the game, thinking that having PvP mode turned off keeps you safe from attacks, which it never did).
It brings changes to resource protection and the Outlaw system, thus allowing you a small window of planting and harvesting resources without being interrupted or killed. And hopefully it will make it easier to get out from Outlaw status without having to track down a PvP-activated guard of the nation and ask to get killed (which never made any sense anyway).

As for battlefields, you can now participate in a controlled PvP environment, where everyone fights on equal terms. Meaning you can work on getting your big wings without fear of an antisocial troll mob of 6x lv200s jumping you every chance they get to destroy your accumulated merit.
There will be incentive to do PvP. As the game is right now, PvP is pointless with the exception of dueling to test your skills against your friends. There is no point in participating against higher leveled, better geared and more experienced players unless you get a kick out of constantly being punched into the ground. Likewise it's equally pointless as a perfectly leveled/geared player to fight someone with lower level, lesser gear or lesser experience. Especially if you're going to complain on the PvE playerbase of doing non-challenging content, while farming merit and bragging about your wings you've gotten doing non-challenging PvP fights.
This will promote a different type of players to do PvP. It has the potential to ruin the game experience for the most toxic PKers, and we'll see them replaced by people more interested in playing fairly and behaving like decent human beings, which will benefit the rest of the playerbase and create a better atmosphere in this game.
0
Score : 2823
Couldn't gain merit in a 1v6...
0
Score : 9557
I do think the PvP revamp and battlegrounds are good healthy changes, but the few details we have of the battlegrounds so far sound a bit too "minigame focussed" when I thought battles should be the main focus.

Also I'm skeptical about one of the game modes only having 3v3 fights. Because some classes/builds perform better and worse in different sized battles so I think it'd be fairer/more interesting to have a wider range battle types. (Say 2v2 up to 5v5). At high levels on 3v3 I think a team comp of Sacrier + dedicated DD + DD/reviver is going to be THE dominant team comp with just some slight variations on which specific classes players take.
0
Score : 1631
Will there be a battleground (or battlegrounds) that allow one to party up with players of different nationality? I don't mean a conquest/ranked match, but more like random party vs other random one, just for fun, maybe practice. Quick play, skirmish, you call it.
1
Score : 15499
If battlefields prove fun enough, I could get behind this.

A low-stakes, no-rewards just for fun skirmish. Would help people familiarize themselves with the system too.
0
Score : 2823
Battlefield sounds fine. (unless it will be mini games and your character will become something else and have New skills for the battle.. then it just sounds like bs)


But I had really wished you had taken a different approatch to the Open World PvP.
I do realise people now days see PKing as a huge problem. (I do say now days cause before it wasn't ..my theory to this is cause of higher population back then....)
Something that actually gives some extra kick the game. Makes it terrifying and exciting shouldn't be taken out.
It could have been solved in other ways.

For example. PKers get [badguy] points (small amount) for PKing wingless. 
Guards ( might not need too be winged/have pvp turned on ..idk) comes to protect the innocent and the higher [badguy] points this person have and they win, the Guard gains  the higher amount of Guard points.  
If there be a need let PKers be locked out of island for 30min after a loss. -shrugs-
You can only gain Guard points in 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 a.s.o (split the points if 1more member on one side... honestly i think it should be even or no points.. but i know people gonna cry...)

Guard points could be to pick out gears?!  with some nice perks vs normal dungeon gears. 
I know all you carebears aren't gonna like this part but...
if this was a functional system it would only be fair.
[badguy] points can also be used to pick out gears..

Could also be a difference with the design of the types of gears .
Guard  gear - light pompus, different aura foods (light colors, sparkly), defence food.. 
[badguy] gear - dark and scary,  different aura foods (dark, dusty..). reward vs loss food (+some stat, -some other stat)

These points could also count as your normal PvP points ..You pick a side.. 
You're the villian or you're the protector of mankind.
So for PKers normal PvP give higher amount of points (worth more to fight someone that actually in the game to fight.) 
and Guards have normal amount for both types but get extra points the higher [badguy] points the other person have.

This would motivate people that say the like PvP but haven't used it to step up and Play the Good Guy.
If there is no evil would there really be good?


Just cause the design is bad shouldn't make it removed ....that's just lazy.

We don't even have mobs that can agro in this game (no the low lvld ones don't count) so there is nothing "unexpected" that can happen and make your blood rush. Why then take out the only thing that was.
Are plenty of other ways to solve this problem too... Not just my suggestion.
1
Score : 15499
I would rather have a well designed open world PVP system with appropriate risks & rewards for participation for good guys and bad guys than have no open world PVP.

I would rather have no open world PVP than our current garbage system or any simple tweaks of it.

Open world PVP is associated with abusive PKing because that's the kind of PVP players are most likely to encounter. The botched PVP revamp of 2014 is part of this, but yes, spreading the population thinner across an ever larger world is also at fault.

As for playing the good guys.. under the current rules that's a sucker's game. Good guys have no mechanisms to actually protect people or enforce any kind of rules. If a bandit or PKer loses a fight to a guard, they don't  actually suffer any real consequences. Other than potentially getting a bruised ego, it's a win-win situation for the PKer, since if a strong Guard comes out to fight the PKer is getting exactly the fight they wanted all along.

There's a reason the current PVP situation on the NOX server has largely collapsed into a fight between two guilds with a reputation for PKing. Not even saying anything bad about the people involved. This is what the current system of open world PVP fosters. It's literally the only way PVP players can get meaningful PVP content right now.

I hope that Dy7 considers options for reinstituting open world PVP after this system, the nation revamps, and most importantly the politics revamp are sorted out. But if they can't do a good system, I'd rather they stick with this "care bear" plan.
0
Score : 410
set bonuses from pvp gear dont work ( i wear 6 pcs legendary gear and nothing)
0
Score : 2607
 
Scab|2017-11-30 20:07:31
set bonuses from pvp gear dont work ( i wear 6 pcs legendary gear and nothing)


they only work in battlefield, did you check there or in battle only?

My Feedback #2

So, let us start with Battlefields...
  • The system where you need to spam click things is kind of annoying/unclear.
Solution: Perhaps place a timer on the click items (crates/flag) so we know when to grab the crate and do not waste time spamming it for no reason
  • The fights will be 3 max per team, but at the moment any amount can attack any amount, assuming that is just for testing purposes.
  • Will we be placing some sort of limits on broken compositions or balancing teamfights because certain teams will be too broken.
  • How do we plan to stop the "Stomp" situation? As in, how to give the losing side a chance when the other side is just too overgeared/overpowered?
  • At the moment, a crate gives 25 points and a player kill gives 50 points. Which seems great but, teamfights could last awhile, will these fights be given more points? ( To stop abuse i would recc. capping the amount given though.)

Now for the Outlaw System...
  • When the "Guardian of Peace" attacks an outlaw, there should be a notification system to tell all the guards in the territory of the location of the fight, so they may join the Npc's side.
  • How often wil lthe Npc attack people? Will 5 others be allowed to join the fight making it 5 players, 1 npc vs 6 outlaws or will it be 6 players+npc vs 6 outlaws?
0
Score : 9557
I briefly tried the supply control game so this is kinda mainly first impressions and I may misjudge some things (because a lot of these concerns are hard to test first session).

It's pretty confusing at the moment with no explanations for anything, but I suppose part of that is just because it's beta.

There are mobs around the map you can attack to earn supply requests. I found this weird though, because as an Amaknian defending an Amaknian territory it seemed EXTREMELY counterintuitive that I was supposed to fight Amaknian militiamen in order to get supply requests.

After you get a supply request you can plant it at a flag to call then a supply drop. Which drops a crate there. Then you can unlock it (multiple locks to unlock). Then it's non-interactable for a while for... unclear reasons. Then you can open it to get supplies.

You can then spend those supplies at a sword totem to get temporary buffs. For some reason you can use the sword at the enemy base too, which doesn't seem like it should be a thing. There's also a fountain of youth totem that restores your health.

3 available buffs from supplies. Each lasts 15 minutes.

+20% damage dealt vs other players
Not 100% sure on the 2nd. Think it's +50% damage vs mobs, +50% heals recieved.
+2 mp, +100% plant speed, +100% gathering speed (for crates)

Collecting supplies is worth 25 points. Defeating (disembodying) an opposing player is worth 50 points per player.

I don't yet have much of a feel for what's the best/most effective way to play it so far. It does seem like kinda ignoring the other team and farming supplies as fast as you can is kinda a valid strategy, unless they put a lot of pressure on you which then forces you into fights. It also seems like there's a lot of scope for extremely boring stall fights though.

I suppose the 20% FD bonus does work against that a bit, but still fighting a tank doll Sadida is something that takes FOREVER (win or lose). Which feels extremely unrewarding in what's essentially a timed point race.  And aggroing DDs is actually a tank Sadi's best move, since DDs would be comparatively much more efficient at farming kills (either PvP vs other DDs or vs mobs). And the maps are so small that a tank Sadi can definitely afford to drop MP for the sake of greater tankiness too.

+2 mp is also arguably a stronger combat bonus than +20% damage dealt (especially on some classes - a cling sac with ~200% FD & 6 mp is stronger than a cling sac with ~220% FD & 4 MP), though since the maps are small in many cases you'd kinda have to design your build around exploiting it. At least the 1v1 PvP maps I encountered were very small but maybe there are larger maps for bigger fights. (The maps vs mobs were much bigger).

Actually thinking about it, based on the size of the maps I encountered I think a high ini iop with the 20% FD bonus would get an almost automatic 1v1 win against anything other than a pure tank.

Some of these concerns possibly get balanced if it's supposed to be 3v3 battles only though.

I didn't see an swords around (signifying battles), which kinda made things a little confusing if a player right next to me randomly disappeared.

It also seems like simply having more players is a HUGE advantage. Which seems like an issue when there's one nation (+ possibly allies) on the defence, and EVERYBODY else on the attack.

Suggestions :
- Players are only allowed to use their team's sword and fountain of youth
- Give some kinda timer marking on supply crates to indicate why they're uninteractable, if that behaviour is intentional.
- Rename the mobs as "Enemy Combatants" to eliminate the "Why am I attacking my own soldiers?" counterintuitive problem.

Edit : Had a look at some of the PvP items.
The PvP items are basically on par with existing items, but have very significant set bonuses that only apply inside battlegrounds. (Not all items are currently implemented so can't compare everything)

On discord Siu has confirmed that the two tiers of bonuses are cumulative (so having 6 items will grant the 6 items set bonus AND the 3 items set bonus) and that you can mix different sets (e.g. getting the 3 items set bonus from the Damage set and a separate 3 items set bonus from the defense set).

Set bonuses are as follows

Damage set 3 items :
25% crit, 150 rear mastery, 150 dodge
Damage set 6 items :
25% damage dealt, 250 elemental mastery, 150 dodge

Defense set 3 items :
25% block, 100 elemental resistance, 150 lock
Defense set 6 items :
25% heals frecieved, 20% armour recieved, 150 lock

Support set 3 items :
2 range, 1 control, 10 force of will
Support set 6 items :
20% healing, 20% armour granted, 20 force of will

It would also be technically possible to combine say the Damage Set 6 items + Defense Set 3 items but then that would limit you to only weapon and emblem slots for your epic and relic.

I like the idea of PvP gear that's on par with existing PvE equipment, but with special battleground set bonuses. So it doesn't make players more powerful in PvE, but there are special bonuses in PvP (and in theory you can use these PvP set bonuses to fine tune the balance of different classes and at different level tiers. If there's a strong tank meta at one level tier, can boost the power of the damage set bonus etc).

HOWEVER I'm annoyed at the thought of needing to gather runes for a whole new set of equipment, that would only actually be advantageous inside a subsection of the game (and would otherwise be equal to what I already have). PvP gear being equally powerful in PvE and substantially stronger in PvP makes the PvE equipment kinda redundant, the PvE equipment wouldn't really have any advantages except... MAYBE having more items to pick from because you aren't tied completely to going for set bonuses. Anyway I'd be suggesting that the PvP gear loses their rune slots... but has the set bonuses boosted up to compensate.

To me that seems fair.
Legendary PvE gear would be on par with Legendary PvP gear, but miss out on the battleground specific set bonuses.
Legendary PvP gear would be on par with Legendary PvE gear, but miss out on the optimization and incremental upgrades from runes.

The PvP gear also seems kinda easier to acquire than most current PvE gear at high levels (hard to tell exactly right now though), so I particularly don't think the PvP gear should make PvE gear redundant and I think the two different types of gear should have situational advantages over each other.

Edit 2 : I think it's mainly the damage set items that are highly competitive with existing items, some of the defense/support set items are noticeably worse than existing gear (some are still competitive though).
3
Score : 82
how in beta can i get access to this battlefield?
0
Score : 343
Hello,

Our team encountered unexpected issues which prevented us from updating the beta server. We were planning an update to add the other battleground gameplay, and to open battlegrounds at new times as well.

I apologize for the inconvenience and for the reply delay, our team was focusing on fixing the issues.
0
Score : 15499
Thanks for letting us know anyway!
0
Score : 184
I would like to know why not put a continuous PvP (Go in combat whenever I want, with balanced queues per level and rank), battleground style of other games
1
Score : 567
So far i think the battlegrounds are really interesting, i really like the capture the flower game mode as it can be quite strategic on how to handle the team etc. And its a relative fast game mode since capturing flowers gives 300 points.

But as for defend the general, is this gamemode supposed to be a massive slugfest? I guess having more players participate in battles will make this gamemode more enjoyable, but as of right now its quite repetetive. As for the bonus from boxes, i do believe that having +2mp is way better than having 20% dmg dealt against players.

Also theres like no synergy with the generals apart from being able to controll them in battle. What if the general would capture an area and start to gain points for the team instead lets say 20 points per 3 min? This would make generals a priority target and people would want to defend him more.
1
Score : 9557
I haven't played the CTF game, but I'm not sold on the general game.

The main problems I have with the general game are
1) The process of fighting mobs to call down supplies doesn't really feel interesting.
2) If one side is dominating the battlefield there's sort of nothing to do.

To elaborate on #2
If your team is winning hard you'll push the enemy back to base (so there's nobody around to kill) and the only thing you can do is farm supplies for 25 points a pop as you wait for the 2 hour timer to tick down. But if you leave your team can quite concievably immediately start losing.

Generals don't really seem to provide an advantage for being out on the field and in fact seem like more of a catchup mechanic. If your team is winning hard you can trap the enemy team inside their base and summon a bunch of generals... then wait 2 hours. If your team then gets bored of nothing happening and leaves the enemy team can come and murder your generals for huge point gains to swing the battle back in their favour (because generals are honestly pretty vulnerable without player control and player support). Successfully defending your general seems to be worth a lot of points too (and locks out the unsuccessful attackers from point generating actions) but if you have the stronger team it seems pretty unlikely for your generals to get attacked.

So I really do think generals should be worth points to the team that controls them. I think you're lowballing your numbers there though sou. Maybe something like, 50 points every 30s but with a 2 minute windup before they start generating points. Point generation from generals could be halted during battles then resolved when the battle completes (so if you had a 10 minute fight, that could result in 0 pts being added if the general was killed or 800-1000 pts if the general survived).

I think killing an opposing general is worth 500 points (hard to be sure exactly), so with that in mind a general would break even scorewise if he survived for 7 minutes. (Whereas with 20 pts every 3mins he'd need to survive 75 minutes to break even with the points he's potentially giving away).

Alternatively generals could have rapidly scaling point generation (so having 4 generals is more than twice as valuable as having 2 and having 2 is more than twice as valuable as having 1).
0
Score : 669
IK this game is trying to be different from dofus but one thing that was an amazing add for them a long time ago was the kolossium and if it could generate pvp matches based on level and gave xp as a reward would be an amazing add so for people that dont like grinding can gain lvls from a balanced pvp fight
0
Respond to this thread