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Too many mechanics makes dungeons not fun

By DallofDark - MEMBER - July 20, 2020, 00:06:38

I love strategic mmo's and wakfu is a great game. However as I'm advancing more into the game I feel like it is becoming too hard and complex for a casual players to continue completing dungeons.
I'm currently doing the level 171 dungeons and I cannot kill the bosses even at stasis one. I felt like dungeons were way too hard and complex since xelor past / present.

First I hate insta-kill mechanics specially when there are too many things that can influence them. The dial at xelor past is a great mechanics, but having to be at the right place, with a insta death and the boss being able to change places with characters and 3 different phases felt too hardcore for me.

After that tier dungeons I tried the Crocodyl Dungeon and I was totally crushed by the boss multiple times. The boss has 3 spells that can push you to a insta kill tittle, plus nearly every monster there can teleport you also. The boss gain an absurd amount of resistance and damage for each monster that you kill and after 50% of it's life you need to make it lose AP to make it vulnerable again (pushing someone into him does not make him lose ap always).
Them I went to Forbidden City Dungeon to face Pandora. Again I was crushed by it at stasis 1. You need to kill a jar every turn to not face a 7k area spell, the boss heals itself for 50% of lost hp every turn, he gets stronger every turn, gets more shield every turn and has a huge resistance / HP. Even at the first turn he already hits 3-4k with a single spell! Not to count the poison that character get if they finish their turn in line.
Now people are going to say that I'm undergeared, with a bad team or doing the mechanics wrong. However I have 6 characters with level 170 legendary gear some with level 185 gear already and I consider my team very versatile.

Are all dungeons 171+ these way? I had fun with most of the dungeons so far but they were not overwhelming. Stalagmotel had a insta death mechanic that was totally fine for me, simple and fun. 

 

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Score : 141

Yeah they are all very punishing for mistakes.
The better your equipment is the more mistakes you can make, when running with the bare minimum one or two mistakes can cause you to lose the fight

The game is more about planning a strategy before the encounter rather than making on the fly decisions. Once you beat a dungeon for the first time, the second, or 100th time will all likely follow a very similar strategy.

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Score : 1578

I'm doing level 171 dungeons with characters with an averague level of 180 and all of them with legendary equipment with 2-4 rune slots. I do not consider my team to have the bare minimum, the reason I'm over leveled is because I farmed a great equipment before moving to the next tier.

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Score : 1426

it does require more planning and proper understanding of each dungeon mechanics, but u'll get the hang of it eventually after some tries. one thing you can do is to try and better your team on lower level dungeon that you like and try going for competitive for end of month rewards if you feel like higher level stuff is a bit overwhelming. while doing so try gathering money and resource so you can gear your char better at 170-185 or 200. most people do 170 since the difference in power for 170-185 is only about 10% and then move on to 200 after.

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Score : 1578

Seeing pandora for example, I fail to see where I could improve. My team has around 60% of resistance in all elements, yet the boss hits too hard on them. I need 2 character to kill the jars, 1-2 for healing. I can't see myself dealing 30k+ damage to the boss in one turn.
Sure, jars give my team some bonuses, but still it can't compensate the Pandora's gain in power during turns. 

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Score : -806

i think, that stasis mechanic should be reworked somehow on high level dungeons
im pretty sure, that stasis 1 should be used to learn mechanics (like you should be able to kill 185 lvl boss with on 171 lvl 168-170 lvl gear (myth-rare) with no shards
on low levels it is possible to do (until 171, i guess)

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Score : 1578

I'm fine failing the dungeon in order to learn the mechanics. I lose the boss fight the first time, fine. But after the 4th time not being able to kill it even at the easiest stasis level is discouraging. My team does not have the minimum set. All equipment are legendary with 2 to 4 sockets. 

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Score : 1315

Our group hardly plays anymore for similar reasons witnessed at the lvl 156 dungeon tier (Xelorium etc) - too many dungeons suddenly become too punishing with layers of convoluted rules that lack intuitive design. Add bloated stats on top in a lot of them.

I don't like it, and Ankama seems to always consider their class designs more broken than their dungeon designs, so I don't forsee any changes happening anytime soon.
 

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Score : 1578

The reason I've made this topic was to see if things were better in other dungeons and I had bad luck with a few ones. I had a lot of fun with the 156 tier, Elite riktus, stalagmote, remignton dungeon, Hoodlum and Kali were fine. I've had problem with xelorium only.
But i feel like dungeons require a very specific team to complete. We have many characters with different builds, it should me more broad so more people can complete.
I want to do challenging dungeons but not impossible.

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Score : 1426

 

DallofDark|2020-07-20 12:38:00
Seeing pandora for example, I fail to see where I could improve. My team has around 60% of resistance in all elements, yet the boss hits too hard on them. I need 2 character to kill the jars, 1-2 for healing. I can't see myself dealing 30k+ damage to the boss in one turn.
Sure, jars give my team some bonuses, but still it can't compensate the Pandora's gain in power during turns. 

pandora is one of the hardest for me as well especially for als, i think you should focus more on the other dungs for now. if you are aiming to gear your char for higher levels then just think of 185 as a stepping stone and grind on the easiest dungeon between them just for the levels. croc, tropike, gerbean should be easier compared to the rest. if you want to focus on 185 and invest in gears, then you're better off trying to maximize your gear slowly while grinding. do 1 character at a time perhaps, dd character will give significant boost to your team when geared optimally.

but for the main part of your question, higher level dungeon will certainly have more restriction and complexity, you need to find your own balance between having fun and grinding with dungeons you are able to do, otherwise you'll just stress your self out.
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Score : 1578

I did Gerbean and Tropike dungeon. They were fine for me but I still need to try the rest of the moon's dungeons.
But the point is that they hadn't as many mechanics as croc or Xelor past. My point is that these dungeons are overwhelming. Too many monsters that can make instadeath, plus the boss being invulnerable with different phases. 

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Score : 379
I had the same problems when my team got to 171 dungeons. They seemed too overwhelming at first but once you understand what to do and don't, then you can piece together the equation of victory for your own team. Technically, all 171 dungeons can be cleared with any balanced composition (at least Stasis 1-21 or even 31): 1 tank, 2-3 DDs, 0-1 positioner/support, 0-1 debuffer and 1 healer. However, I can say, from experience, that 3/6 of 171 dungeons have bosses that are not Close combat friendly: Kanivore, Crocodile and Kannibal. So it is recommended that you have at most 1 close combat fighter when running those dungeons (unless you have the tools to protect them: Sram invisibility/Feca Immunity).

The comp I used for 171 dungeons was:
Panda (Tank/Positioner)
Huppermage (Ranged DD)
Iop (Close Combat DD)
Hyppolire (Buffer)
Cloud Knight (Debuffer)
Drop Knight (Heal)

IMO, is not the best team but is versatile enough for clearing all lvl 171 dungeons in Stasis 1-21. Addressing the dungeons you mentioned:

Crocs, I would rate it at 6/10 difficulty. Not particullary hard, just that the nyl hunters are troublesome so you should deal with them to survive the first 2 turns (either by having someone who kills them before their turn or stabilizing the netted characters or killing the nyl rippers). The boss, while not as easy to tank as before (stabilization nerf), can be kited with MP and range removal.

Pandora, I would rate it at 7/10 difficulty IF you got characters with incurable, if not then I would rate it 9/10. You don't need to kill a jar each turn in phase 2 (when he gets to the center of the map) as long as you tank him while he is in a tile that belongs to the center zone while your tank is outside of it so when you are finally going to kill him, you can take him to the outer zone and he will lose a lot of resistances. 1400 tackle is recommended given his high dodge.
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I think that pandora is easier than croc. The main problem with pandora is that you need a lot of Damage to kill her. I'll try to find a way to make pandora incurable and try again.
It really bugs me the fact that croc boss gets tons of damage and resistance the more monsters you kill, plus having to lose AP to get vulnerable later. 

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Score : 117

Agree on that one, from 156-171 onwards dungeons and the difficulty overall escalates a lot i feel like, i recently just completed the Zinit quest about completing all of Moon island dungeons and stuff, i was like, lvl 195 already, helped by some member of my guild who were at the lvl 200 mark and already geared, we finally made it past the Kanivore and Kaniball dungeon, at stasis 1.

I get that part of the fun there is working around those mechanics, but being brutally killed for making a single mistake or not having the best armor for your current level is underwhelming, if i need the boss resources to get the new gear i need to suceed at the dungeon, is buying the stuff from other people before i can get it myself the intended way? or well, some months of daily quests to get some resources with tokens.

For reference, i'm already at lvl 212, i'm currently making money to get the resources and things i need to make me a good armor to complete some of the Osamosa dungeons, or well, even kill anything, because i'm nearly finished with it and i can't kill anything except single enemies (and just some of them), while at lvl 156 i was just wearing rare and mythical gear i dropped outside, i didn't even know legendary gear was a thing, nor i was aware of Relics, the first one i got was the Golden keychain after some time, and i still could go to the dungeons of my level with people around my same level and complete them sometimes. Really, i feel like jumping from that, to spending over 100mk on a gear that makes you just enough to beat the boss of your current level.

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Score : 6355

I felt like between Moon and Zinit, Ankama's balancing team took a nosedive into the "git gud" territory and NOW things seem a little more doable and simplified, take for example the Blightopart or the Osamosa dungeons, not only the mechanic of the boss and monsters are pretty much WRITTEN in their status, but they are way less circunstantial and convoluted. Blightopard is like a vanilla version of Pandora with the heal and all, but you can make his resistance plummet to NEGATIVE numbers and blow him up in one turn, or Osamosa's dungeons are laughably simple, like the scorpion dungeon in the Arid wing. But the damage, resistance and all, those are always out of whack.

By the way, doing both pandora and blightopard, the SAVING GRACE of our team was my foggernaut casting every turn the Furnace spell that deals 50% incurable. If you can get on your team a good fogger to do that (the spell costs 1WP, so I reccomend no stasification) you will see how much easier it is to blast through those bosses when you cut their healing in half.

EDIT: byt the way, Pandora's Area spell only affects the center courtyard of the map, you can simply use a tank with a good amount of lock and MP steal and keep the battle at the surrounding areas. Also, the boss deals much more damage when alone, so all you have to do is: kill all 4 barrels, keep ONE mob alive (I reccomend the fat one since he is the least annoying) and just keep the boss occupied in the surrounding areas while avoinding the courtyard.

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Score : 1556

Both Blightopard and Pandora came out on the same update though, and a similar principle applies to both of them. For Blighto you need to make the boss res nosedive into the negative by stacking things on your chars that would kill you if mobs were alive, for Pandora you just need to stack buffs ontop of yourself until you have the damage to kill it fast. In both cases, it's stalling.

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Score : 802

Well if it makes you feel a lil relief i cannot do neither forbidden city, not xelor dung with bird at 200+ lvl chars with appropriate equpment. Cuz im also dont like invulnerability mechanics almost every boss has. Jeez just make them ten times bulkier and remove this crazy over turn buffs, I'd rather have that.

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Well that's weird, I killed the bird on s21 with 2 auto-185 chars, 1 perfectly 185 geared, 2 with legendary, epic and relic 155 gear without great sockets, and 1 125 with the same quality of gearing as 155.
I know the mechanics aren't always clear and/or easy, but with a bit of trying it works.

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Score : 1069

I actually like the harder dungeons because it forces players to look for each other to clear it.
Yu can't beat those harder stuff without extra brains watching out for yur mistakes and altering their actions to make up for yur own.

Or yu can just play 6 characters with 2 accounts and lead the merry band to die because yu missed a single crucial mechanic which wipes everyone. 

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Precisely,

sadly, majority of the casual players lack the patients to learn, and just want a monkey brain mode quick game like most recent popular gaming genre, such as BR, or AFK auto play mobile game, for that quick dose of dopamine rush.

They basically want to turn Chess into Checkers. Both are fun by their own rights, but have a very different late game experience.

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Score : 3211

While I agree that invulnerability as a mechanic is a bit overused and less creative as a caveat for utilizing the specific mechanics, having mechanics is not inherently bad. It's a tactics RPG. If you don't want to use your brain, that's fine; you're just not allowed to clear the dungeons. You're not entitled to finish a dungeon just because you downloaded the game.

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Score : 6355

Although I feel like SOME dungeons could use a slight clean up. Such as Xelorium Present. The boss mechanic with the clock: fine. The diagonal damage: annoying, but fine. The healing causing damage around you AND some players getting the "Tormentor healing friendly fire" gimmick? TOTALLY UNNECESSARY! And don't get me started on Kanilooni and Sham Moon, those are ABSURD xD As for the 186-201 dungeons, those are actualy pretty fine, mechanic-wise. Most have the mechanics written and you can quickly figured out what you need to beat those (although some rely too heavy on positioning, making current Xelor and Pandawas annoyingly mandatory)

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I agree, though its not really that difficult but quickly burns me out playing dungeons, esp 200 up mechanics.. 

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Something that Ankama should do is explain the bosses mechanics, example, There is no buff/debuff that explain mechanics like Black Wabbit(u can apply this for almost all bosses), In meka dg the boss has a explanation how to beat it, soo they can do it.
This is the first problem to me.

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another thing that Ankara should consider is make dungeon mechanics be less class restrictive. 
 

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