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Dungeons mechanics out of sense

By JonTurk - MEMBER - September 20, 2019, 13:02:41

Please, stop creating uncondition passives and spells on mobs.
  -rebounds : rebounds my attack for what and how many times?? my ap is for attack. What will i do in my turn if i wont attack opponent with delayed attacks or how will i restore my hp by stealing? will i wait boss remove my bombs with stupid summon deleting spell?? or will it rebound my detanation every 3 turns in a row? how many times will it rebound my detonation ? forever or till it kills me??
-how many turns will i loss my 2 mps in every dungeon in each turns? while i cast my any spell ,is there a notify about "you wont change your position 1 tile (back,front or telelport opposite) while you are not stabilized and not surrounded" ?
Most of time my attacks kills me more than opponent attacks, because it is random.
-how to  guard yourself from pushes of  blibli boss while he pushes every object from next of you and  pushes from side for 10 tiles away??
Please fix dungeon tiles for tactical views,your scene objects dont show red.tiles but blocks way.there are tons of object in Pandala and Xeloriums.
dungeons are in unplayable conditions cause no sense.
 

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Things are usually explained in passives, most rebounds are. 
On 7th and each 6 turns afterwards, ALL bosses destroy summons within 5 cells of them. This is also written on stasis buff (I think archetype one).
For blibli boss, you need to self stabilise, align with walls, stay away from boss and so on. You use positioning and strategy to survive it's savegeness.

I doubt all dungeons are unplayable. Please mention which ones are causing you problems.

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Remove some edge perma death tiles from blibli dungeon ,all mobs have been programmed to pushes or teleports you near edges,boss has got senseless pushes ability each round that it can push you 10 tiles away and at round 2, 2 heroes are being killed by tiles.i know how it will be ended from start of dungeon because MECHANIC IS RUBBISH AS ALWAYS Some dungeon bosses are really worse about their mechanics against class set up. 80 level rogue has got NO STABILIZATION PASSIVE that reported you billion times to you fix that class because its gameplay is BROKEN. Classes or rogue dont need to kill mobs at once to be limited,they need an unique gameplay without limits,thats all. 

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Do you even read what game offers you? U gave terrible examples, Blibli dun is straightfoward as hell and u can play around the pushes by positioning self well and not exposing for hits, focusing right mobs, -mp, stab, being allinged with ally or wall or summon or whatever, u can place bombs, standars, bones, dial or anything else on death tile to prevent yourself to be pushed there. Bloody hell dude start thinking when u play, u have 6 chars in team all of them have various of skill abilities. Vast majority of your post on forum are simply a pile of nonsense. Think before posting

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SirPercedal|2019-11-27 18:57:08
Do you even read what game offers you? U gave terrible examples, Blibli dun is straightfoward as hell and u can play around the pushes by positioning self well and not exposing for hits, focusing right mobs, -mp, stab, being allinged with ally or wall or summon or whatever, u can place bombs, standars, bones, dial or anything else on death tile to prevent yourself to be pushed there. Bloody hell dude start thinking when u play, u have 6 chars in team all of them have various of skill abilities. Vast majority of your post on forum are simply a pile of nonsense. Think before posting

want play together rn? maybe im noob at this dungeon?
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mb u are (score with wipe on 3rd and boss room btw)
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dude move your bombs to at least 6 cells away from the boss before the summon kill turns hit it's not that hard

also if the enemies didn't have mechanics like pushing people into death tiles or special mechanics to a monster family, every fight would be 100% the same thing and the entire game would be a cakewalk. no one wants that. learn mechanics and plan accordingly
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they-it push(es) my bomb into tiles first than me.. this comment not useful. i invite you to play together.. huh?

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SirPercedal|2019-11-27 19:16:50
mb u are (score with wipe on 3rd and boss room btw)


dude i invited you to play the dung together , dont need your score table

 
SirPercedal|2019-11-27 21:07:14
Ill be 100% honest, I don't want to even run it with you.

Starting by the way u format post, trashtalking about simple stuff only showing your lack of understanding of basic of the game, instead of asking for advice in friendly manner u decided to make a post that in future will be read by poor new wakfu player that instead of getting acctually constructive feedback will recive rant on simply stupid topic that doesnt require changes.

Im not the guy to bring u thru the dun and do the job for you, I give you advices use them to reach your goal. The rank I showed you is to realize you that I can pull out dun with group of 4 different ppl, with feca that doesnt even have set for the dun.

Sorry not sorry but I wont be your personal trainer


No problem, your teammate who beat stasis 50 in this dungeon told me about wild boar dung that w boar mechanic is dumb.. i, have just posted "rubbish". i think rubbish is less than dumb lol

btw , dude there are 12 players in ranking table for this month , why is this dung out of rating??
aybe its mechanic?*
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Ill be 100% honest, I don't want to even run it with you.

Starting by the way u format post, trashtalking about simple stuff only showing your lack of understanding of basic of the game, instead of asking for advice in friendly manner u decided to make a post that in future will be read by poor new wakfu player that instead of getting acctually constructive feedback will recive rant on simply stupid topic that doesnt require changes.

Im not the guy to bring u thru the dun and do the job for you, I give you advices use them to reach your goal. The rank I showed you is to realize you that I can pull out dun with group of 4 different ppl, with feca that doesnt even have set for the dun.

Sorry not sorry but I wont be your personal trainer

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Fun fact, in our run no one got pushed to a death cell even once. We only have one self stabilization on team. I highly doubt it's rubbish dungeon mechanics. You do need someone to push boss a few times to reduce it's resist, but there's plenty of classes out there that do that.
Just take care of positioning, crowd control mobs or do whatever you can. Im sure you're not trying to run s50 (which is pretty hard for other reasons: damage they do) so things are fairly managable. It's actually a great dungeon to train positioning usage, mob prediction and team-play.

Just remember: Not being trivial makes it fun, I don't want all dungeons to be like gobball at level 20.

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im not totally against these kind of mechanics but if you read my first post, you will understand "how many times?". there is no limit on some bosses to act their spell and there is no limit on mob summoning of other bosses. this OP boss mechanic is acceptable if no ALS mode but it is annoying when it is ALS because your damage is equal opponent damage but count is less. mostly people hate this kind of dungeon to play together and im not enough to beat this dungeon with 2 heroes if not equiped.

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it seems really dumb. something never seems dumb if it is not dumb. btw i never tell lie for a even it is a game.

Anyway ,thanks all to support by agreed or disagreed but if a dungeon fight are being completed without fighting and a simple perma-tile death,it is out of sense to me, you agree or disagreee to me and all classes havent got similar conditions.
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U missunderstood my friend I belive. Bidi said that the idea of priority on avoiding dmg might seems stupid compered to direct dmg but acctually works well there on s50.

I can do this dun on s50 with rogue friend if u want to.
Type pls your team comp for dungeon I can list u mechanics from them that u might use for your advantage.

I assure you this is not about classes u playing more about your playstyle and lack of knowlage about positioning out of mobs range.

If the swaping minion  makes u a lot of problem invest into air dmg and put focus on him, -mp and pushes to create space are really beneficial, boss can get -150 or -200 (dont remember) if u make collision to him few times. and most of the classes in the game have access to pull or push.

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JonTurk|2019-11-27 14:22:41
they-it push(es) my bomb into tiles first than me.. this comment not useful. i invite you to play together.. huh?


im crying you have 6 turns before summon kill turn to plan for these things

 
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keep them in corner, or on death cells protecting yourself from being pushed on them at the same time. meanwhile lure/push/pull boss on 7range away from bombs radius. U can use -mp or block the path in some way, using the pillars on map

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SirPercedal|2019-11-28 17:25:08
U missunderstood my friend I belive. Bidi said that the idea of priority on avoiding dmg might seems stupid compered to direct dmg but acctually works well there on s50.

I can do this dun on s50 with rogue friend if u want to.
Type pls your team comp for dungeon I can list u mechanics from them that u might use for your advantage.

I assure you this is not about classes u playing more about your playstyle and lack of knowlage about positioning out of mobs range.

If the swaping minion  makes u a lot of problem invest into air dmg and put focus on him, -mp and pushes to create space are really beneficial, boss can get -150 or -200 (dont remember) if u make collision to him few times. and most of the classes in the game have access to pull or push.

you are still missing the point. i told you that everytime "it will push (my bombs,M.bone or any)  onto tiles".
it was front of me ,i put the bomb behind and right side of me, it walked  and pushed the bomb at right side of me and delete  the bomb on the tiles behind of me and walked again left side of me and pushed me onto the tiles right side of me. because if you are rogue you should know that Monsters always attack your bombs if they are closer. 

once, i have counted ,boss has pushed me 10 tiles away after deleted my meadow bone.

thats why i posted "how many times?" and "how many turns"??
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JonTurk|2019-11-28 12:02:44
they re 6 players and no rogue in team and they are geared ,i have got no gear.

that sounds like a you problem, as in, get gear, it's important when running high stasis, especially on als.

Lower level gear also isn't that hard to get.



JonTurk|2019-11-28 12:00:34
 
SirPercedal|2019-11-28 17:25:08
U missunderstood my friend I belive. Bidi said that the idea of priority on avoiding dmg might seems stupid compered to direct dmg but acctually works well there on s50.

I can do this dun on s50 with rogue friend if u want to.
Type pls your team comp for dungeon I can list u mechanics from them that u might use for your advantage.

I assure you this is not about classes u playing more about your playstyle and lack of knowlage about positioning out of mobs range.

If the swaping minion  makes u a lot of problem invest into air dmg and put focus on him, -mp and pushes to create space are really beneficial, boss can get -150 or -200 (dont remember) if u make collision to him few times. and most of the classes in the game have access to pull or push.


you are still missing the point. i told you that everytime "it will push (my bombs,M.bone or any)  onto tiles".
it was front of me ,i put the bomb behind and right side of me, it walked  and pushed the bomb at right side of me and delete  the bomb on the tiles behind of me and walked again left side of me and pushed me onto the tiles right side of me. because if you are rogue you should know that Monsters always attack your bombs if they are closer. 

once, i have counted ,boss has pushed me 10 tiles away after deleted my meadow bone.

thats why i posted "how many times?" and "how many turns"??

you can block them from pushing a bomb with another bomb that's further away. if they push the bomb that's closest into the farther bomb, neither of them gets pushed into whatever tile you're talking about. 

you can also use the fact that "monsters always attack bombs if they are closer" to your advantage by bodyblocking and AoE baiting. It's not always a bad thing. I do this all the time.

Mobs pushing bombs onto death tiles is easy to avoid if you think a little bit. If your bombs are still dying, you probably need more HP so that you and your bombs aren't so squishy. Consider bringing smoke bombs + barbed fire to buff the resistance of your bombs, 3 at a time with smoke bombs, or investing in gear with higher HP.

 
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Loka-|2019-12-03 21:33:28
 
JonTurk|2019-11-28 12:02:44
they re 6 players and no rogue in team and they are geared ,i have got no gear.


that sounds like a you problem, as in, get gear, it's important when running high stasis, especially on als.

Lower level gear also isn't that hard to get.



JonTurk|2019-11-28 12:00:34
 
SirPercedal|2019-11-28 17:25:08
U missunderstood my friend I belive. Bidi said that the idea of priority on avoiding dmg might seems stupid compered to direct dmg but acctually works well there on s50.

I can do this dun on s50 with rogue friend if u want to.
Type pls your team comp for dungeon I can list u mechanics from them that u might use for your advantage.

I assure you this is not about classes u playing more about your playstyle and lack of knowlage about positioning out of mobs range.

If the swaping minion  makes u a lot of problem invest into air dmg and put focus on him, -mp and pushes to create space are really beneficial, boss can get -150 or -200 (dont remember) if u make collision to him few times. and most of the classes in the game have access to pull or push.



you are still missing the point. i told you that everytime "it will push (my bombs,M.bone or any)  onto tiles".
it was front of me ,i put the bomb behind and right side of me, it walked  and pushed the bomb at right side of me and delete  the bomb on the tiles behind of me and walked again left side of me and pushed me onto the tiles right side of me. because if you are rogue you should know that Monsters always attack your bombs if they are closer. 

once, i have counted ,boss has pushed me 10 tiles away after deleted my meadow bone.

thats why i posted "how many times?" and "how many turns"??


you can block them from pushing a bomb with another bomb that's further away. if they push the bomb that's closest into the farther bomb, neither of them gets pushed into whatever tile you're talking about. 

you can also use the fact that "monsters always attack bombs if they are closer" to your advantage by bodyblocking and AoE baiting. It's not always a bad thing. I do this all the time.

Mobs pushing bombs onto death tiles is easy to avoid if you think a little bit. If your bombs are still dying, you probably need more HP so that you and your bombs aren't so squishy. Consider bringing smoke bombs + barbed fire to buff the resistance of your bombs, 3 at a time with smoke bombs, or investing in gear with higher HP.

 

game doesnt work on this progress everytime that you have told..
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aight then suffer i guess

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It is true that some dungeons or monsters require terrible and absurd tactics.
Here’s some examples of them.

e.g. 1.
Personally, I want some reasons why bosses remove all summons on their 7th turn.
Like, “Watchout! This boss has intermittent power explosion that may erase your summon magic.(Every 7th turn)”
But I think not every boss should have this abilty.
It is kinda absurd that the piwi boss has power explosion ability.

e.g. 2.
A badgeroxxer has 6k damage parameter named “blood shed” which may unlock the spell of automatical chasing down the state bearer and does some damage on the target.
This 6k amount is not scaled up or down with stasis, so you cannot even try to touch the roxxer without stablizer spell if you don’t have enough power to kill it before its turn, or you die.

e.g. 3.
Dor’mor mobs’ 30% reflecting shield is almost like untouchable state if you have high power ability.
No matter what damage you can do, it reflects true 30% of it (more than 30% on high stasis), which means it has ability to reflect damage more than your whole HP.

e.g. 4.
Kannilooni boss has double fd effects after stasis patch.
It has its own fd gaining mechanism and stasis effect gives extra fd as well.
All bosses’ basic fd gaining effect has been removed since stasis patch.
But kannilooni has doubled effect.

I don’t say it is impossible to overcome all examples I mentioned, but dungeons and monsters askes too much for players to enjoy it.

Meanwhile,
it is useless to talk about mechanics of dungeon.
Things never change.
And people just repeatedly say “All things are written,” and never listen the unconditional passive itself has crucial effects on specific classes: like rogue.
As I understood, (passives or mechanics) written or not is not important point, and you already knows the written passives.
That’s why you pointed out those are out of sense.

You have to adapt it.
This is how this game has worked.

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I mainly agree, but I think you meant 300% reflect, not 30%.

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shyvanillacra|2019-12-04 06:40:23
It is true that some dungeons or monsters require terrible and absurd tactics.
Here’s some examples of them.

e.g. 1.
Personally, I want some reasons why bosses remove all summons on their 7th turn.
Like, “Watchout! This boss has intermittent power explosion that may erase your summon magic.(Every 7th turn)”
But I think not every boss should have this abilty.
It is kinda absurd that the piwi boss has power explosion ability.

e.g. 2.
A badgeroxxer has 6k damage parameter named “blood shed” which may unlock the spell of automatical chasing down the state bearer and does some damage on the target.
This 6k amount is not scaled up or down with stasis, so you cannot even try to touch the roxxer without stablizer spell if you don’t have enough power to kill it before its turn, or you die.

e.g. 3.
Dor’mor mobs’ 30% reflecting shield is almost like untouchable state if you have high power ability.
No matter what damage you can do, it reflects true 30% of it (more than 30% on high stasis), which means it has ability to reflect damage more than your whole HP.

e.g. 4.
Kannilooni boss has double fd effects after stasis patch.
It has its own fd gaining mechanism and stasis effect gives extra fd as well.
All bosses’ basic fd gaining effect has been removed since stasis patch.
But kannilooni has doubled effect.

I don’t say it is impossible to overcome all examples I mentioned, but dungeons and monsters askes too much for players to enjoy it.

Meanwhile,
it is useless to talk about mechanics of dungeon.
Things never change.
And people just repeatedly say “All things are written,” and never listen the unconditional passive itself has crucial effects on specific classes: like rogue.
As I understood, (passives or mechanics) written or not is not important point, and you already knows the written passives.
That’s why you pointed out those are out of sense.

You have to adapt it.
This is how this game has worked.


e.g.1 - isn't that 7th turn desummon exist to stop the exploiting bosses AI bc ankama didnt had any other way to fix it? I play with few summoner based friends and they dont have too much problem of moving their summons or asking for some pull or push.

The mechanic is cancer only in cases where we have no choice at all. For example Badger boss mode 1-3 range 7th turn. Thats an example of terrible situation that cock all summons

e.g.2 - I agree tho a lot of classes have stab, and if not stab nuke that they can set up for next turn to kill the roxxor

e.g.3 - agree

e.g.4 - agree

There are more of examples for that for sure. But it's all simple to understand and work around. Personaly I hate mechanics that don't tell u nothing at all.

Duns like Xel Present that I did today farming stelees. Where new player dont get any hint what to do in boss room, at some point they will stand on the tile sure, in p2 they will want to hit the boss but zonk 0dmg, and boss dont have immu passive on self. But at some point they will cast a spell on red tiles sure. But how much tries it will take, how much time they will get blased by omega aoe, how badly possitioned they will be. These type of things in my opinion are stuff that is anoying and shouldnt exist. Bc it's relying on ppl that will wipe few times before understanding how the boss work, and most of the ppl give up at this point.

Mystery and secret effects should be left for new UB when ppl fight for server first. Not for casual content. I don't have problem with hard content, I dont have problem with playing around mechanics. As long as I can read what will bloody happen and adapt to it Im fine with it.

Making Wakfu even easier mechanic wise can create the game that will look the same in every dungeon and I wouldnt want it, tho would be nice if that would be done without overlaping +fd% sources like on Kannibal.
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btw do portals count as summon?

 

SirPercedal|2019-12-04 15:14:30
nope, they dont 





why? does not a portal help this hero while range increasing or escape even buffing and healing?

whats "the causes" not to count it as a summon?

 
Biiditchoun|2019-12-05 09:56:40
The same reason for traps not being counted as summons : you can still wakl on the tile it occupies





Lol, ofc Traps is not summon ,they dont help you forever , it is just a spell for next  turn. Sram's summon is its double not traps. this example is out of summons.

 
Biiditchoun|2019-12-06 12:57:01
Traps are a spell for next turns, elio portals are too, both can stay up forever if you want to... ? I don't see why you see those spells differently, they're basically the same, except for their effects.
Also you make fun of my explanation, but I don't think you got my point at all ; to my knowing it's still a valid one. I'm not dumb, I am aware the clone is a summon.






@Biiditchoun, portals are forever, traps will be removed after step on and it wont help you to buff you or heal most time.

 

Spoiler (click here to show spoiler)

shyvanillacra|2019-12-06 00:51:06 It doesn’t count as summon but it does require control stat for having it. Most of elio’s spell are useless without 2 portals and in-line of the target of favor, which means you have to spend at least 2~4 ap every turn. Elio doesn’t have any kind of self stacking buff except for transitory’s crit %, and fd gaining mechanism is really limited. Most important part is that portal itself does nothing but just there. A lot of players know nothing about elio that they even think erasing portal is free of cost lol. Elio does far less damage than other classes without portal, and its damage is normal as others with portals in general. That’s why portals are not counted as other summons. Well, you may say portals help players forever, though few players are suit for playing or having elio in their team. Elio can cast x2 portal spell per turn including removement. Considering that most of PvM ends in 3-4 turns, elio have to spend at least 6-10 ap per battle for portals and buff (=which does no damage). It is really funny that you think portal helps a player “forever.” Assuming elio has 12 ap in average, 6-10 ap is almost 1/4 to 1/3 of your whole ap in the battle. That’s why most of no-tactic or underpowered elio players just spam portal + flood or backstabbing unleashed blade or 2 portals + stabilizer without thinking. Elio needs to prepare at least 1 turn for doing real damage, and have about 2-3 turns of high to low damaging cycle: damage can be about halfed at the lowest point comparing with the highest point. And don’t forget that elio only can do about 3 damaging shots per turn because of high cost spells. It is fair cost. Like you have insisted dungeon mechanisms are out of sense for rogue’s bomb, other classes have their own issues as well. At this moment, I’d like to say that you have to practice with your bombs placement more for overcome mechanisms. There’s nothing you can do without it. This is how this game works. I know that rogues have really wrong design so far, there’s no doubt about it. My rogue is still ranked at one of the tops rank in lv 200 dgs in remington, “as a rogue,” even though I haven’t played it for dg ladder from 6-12 months ago. Few rogue players could be over my record. (My rogue was not even that powerful comparing with current rogue’s: 4k mastery at that time) It means no one played rogue since then or rogue itself has wrong design. There were alot rogue theory makers but few actually has played it in random condition. However, I don’t like your attitude of talking in aggression to someone. There’s no need of distorting or sneaking up other classes because of your main class in hard time. Some classes have to prepared much more than others. For example, my elio has 5.2k mastery without any trick, but I cannot hit better than 4.3k iop in SUP charged. Please think again. If you cannot do well, it maybe because you have too low power. If you have enough power, you can use your bombs in earlier turn, instead of wasting 7 turns to get x4~5 bombs in 20 combos. You have to prepare much more than others to get average performance, because rogue is designed in that way. Everyone knows enu+fogger+feca comp does the best outcome in the first turn, but not all players pick that way. Why? Ask yourself. You chose the rogue. If you want to say yourself as a rogue main player or to get better performance, try to get supporters who have willingness to sacrifice his or her turn for rogue. It should be not easy tho lol.





do you said elio's spell is expensive and powerless??


btw portals gives you limitless mp and range and 2 ap is nothing if it will increase this specialities.
Ankama removes high resistance cause of 1 range speciality on gear.

 
hiseldisel|2019-12-07 12:18:22
"Someone should test if hemorrhage or feca glyphs affect them"
Never said that glyphs or hemorrage is a summon, but that with them you can test if bombs have their own turn. You know, cuz they dmg the target only on their own turn.




i should check if beacon is a summon??

@shyvanillacra , well i just started cra gameplay , beacon counts as summon to bedeleted by bosses and you need 2 ap to place and 2 ap to remove it. will you still guard elio's portal is not a summon not to be deleted by bosses ??  

well this is the community's problem because you dont want to see how rules work in a rubbish progress between classes against dungeons  but i  always will show you the broken side of gameplay even yooudont like it or you can keep up to call me as NOOB but everyone knows i am right at points.

 
Biiditchoun|2019-12-08 12:57:27
Oh right, mb, I hadn't understood it that way. Still, I'm pretty sure that bombs do not have any turn.
Jonturk I'm sorry but you really did not get my point.



elio's portals are summon of ELIO and without portal elio is a limited class how "ROGUE" is.
Because these two class combats are based on these 2 summon kinds.
ELIO has got unlimited range while ELIO is positioning its summons and limitless range ability on them
ROGUE has got limited range while rogue is positioning and detonating the summons.
​​​​​

Spoiler (click here to show spoiler)

and each detonate increase bomb cost like" air bomb is 2 ap but without detonate it is useless so when you detonated you will be cost 3 ap  for air bomb and 4ap is earth and 5 ap for fire and as you saw they arenot  really cheap"  

ELIO CAN dodge any far point by time breach if elio is locked.
ROGUE CANT if locked even ROGUE has not got any pull push ability on default.

ELIO CAN resurect.
ROGUE CANT.
Elio can increase its AP when berserk
Rogue cannot.
and all these limits on this rogue class at the end, you count its bombs as summon but portals not??,
will i count more??
 
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nope, they dont 

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What's wrong with you?
I already my idea of saying 7th turn summon removement is wrong.


I don't care bosses erase portals or not.
Sure, go ahead to erase it.
I'm a much more professional player than you can imagine.

But I'd like to point out that your comparing is totally wrong.
Because all elio's spell needs extra cost (1wp + at least 2+2n ap for portals, if you say "infinite range") for damage and that is already big cost, even if elio has good wp regeneration cycle.
What you consider as 4 ap spell, is actually have 4 ap + (1wp + pre-consumed 4 ap) cost value.
Such an easy calculation, but you ignored the pre-consumed cost.
I don't think you purposedly ignored this math, but you just wanted to show rogue's problem in exaggerated way.

There are classes which have much more damage base than elio's but I won't pointed the out, because they also have reasons.
And I can say more wrong things on your post, but I won’t point them out.
I know that will drive this useless talk in more wrong way.

Do you really think other players don’t know the issues of rogue?
We already talked alot about problems of rogues on the official wakfu discord (which now doesn’t exist).
You just don't know it.
The reason why forum is so quite about rogue is that most of rogue players already leave this game with that problem.

What you pointed out is all other rogue players already had pointed out 1 year ago, from the begining day of rogue revamp on beta server.
Do you really think you are the chosen one who only can recognize the problem of rogue in dungeon?
If so, there's nothing more to say to you except for "LOL" or "LMAO."

Nobody says your are a noob.
But now I think you are just a noob if you think yourself so.

And why do you avoid the point if you are so confident about your skills?
It is true that you can’t do dungeon well without enough power.
Do you really think you can play a rogue like endgame players from the begining?
Players who have power have already spend alot time to reach that point, so they worth to ignore some mechanism by overkilling power.
It seems like I pointed out your weak point well.

Please don't think you are the only one who can save this community.
You are just one of us.

Nobody will think yourself as a savior.
You still have so much aggressive attitude on your suggestion.
Nobody will listen your word if you keep your aggression.


You know what?
Others may think you don’t respect us.
If you want others to respect you, you have to respect them either.
But since you don’t respect us, you won’t get our respect.


I see so much paranoid symptom in your words.
You just cut and paste the mentions of others' without context, for defending your ideas.

You said that everyone knows you are right.
But before saying that, I actually don't know your point.
EVERYONE SAID THAT THEY DON'T KNOW YOUR POINT.


AND YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO SPEAK IN PROPER MANNERS TO PERSUADE SOMEONE ELSE.
What you do now is just saying "You see this and this and this and this? See? I'm smartass."
So what? Nobody cares about how smart you are. And tbh, it seems you are not.


Nobody says rogues are fit for dungeon.

The title of this post is about dungeon mechanism.
But what you try to say is "Please nerf other classes, because rogue is not good in dungeon. Please nerf other classes like rogue!”
Yelling like a baby!
LOL

Look at you.
You don't even focus on the original topic.

What I see now is you are just attacking others feedback rather than saying dungeon mechanism.

If you want to say about dungeon mechanism, you have to keep your focusing on it rather to attack others.
They are not your enemy. But you attack them with your words. That is what I saw here.
You already have lost alot respect from others.
WHAT A SHAME.

lol lol lol
You don’t have to waste your time to reply for me, because I don’t look back here again.
Now I get why others downvoted to what you have mentioned so far.

I can bite you more than this, but I finish this from now on.
I only respect who worth to get it.
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@shyvanillacra
debuff other classes?? where did i tell it?? i just told why bosses have got "summon remove"  and why this summon removal is not working same for every classses? and why there is no limits on bosses about mob summoning?  these are my questions, you cant judge me with words that i have never told it!
second; where did i attack a forum player with my words ,you should prove it!
if you have got same idea with me why are you against me with you last post?? 

Just read first post of Sirpercedal than i just invited him to play with me to prove his tactical knowledge but "ignored" and told me im noob ,causes ??
you said me elio is weak than rogue in attacks and dungeons, i showed you the direct base damage. of course i know you need wp to cast clash but it will give you endless Exalted turn and every calm will give you 2-3 wp regen. but rogue's each wp attack will be in cooldown after wp usage and this class has got no survival ability like an elio. you may know better these classes than me but it seems other players are unaware while giving me tactical knowledge. so you should tell them whaats wrong by replying them, "not to me".
 

and about ranges, rogue has got no close combat spells in fire  and all earth attacks are area.
Only close combat attack is air and execution (2 ap) and it is being the worse if  target has got high air resistance and lock.more bombs is less survival chance for rogues. and you should compare the rogue passives with elio and probably everyone likes it.

idk where should i start but your all guard is funny,you know why?
"will you still guard elio's portal is not a summon not to be deleted by bosses ?? "
i didnt want this above debuff if other summons wont be removed too, i just tried to understand something is being called as summon in game but if you want to call it mechanism you can call all tham as mechanism. you cant say people that bombs are not a mecanism of rogue.. stop playing word games. Beacons and portals nearly has got similar mechanics. but if people want to call it as summon they can if they want to call it as mechanic they can too. and people can call rogue needs a bomb set up to power damage so you can call bomb gameplay as set up as summon.

AS YOU TOLD ,SUMMON A PORTAL ,thats why that portal doesnt make sense.btw im not against elio summon or other class summon.

shyvanillacra -I already my idea of saying 7th turn summon removement is wrong.

and second thing , i didnt say "sram trap and feca glyph"- you did word play again.
i just told beacons and portals has got nearly similar mechanic and 2 ap cost to place and remove and portals help allies too but you only like to act as blind mouse not to see reality of class gameplays.
because you prefer to call portals as mechanics.
shyvanillacra  -It doesn’t count as summon but it does require control stat for having it.
and i could give another class as example if i knew but i only know elio gameplay.

AND ABOUT PLAYERS

"it seems really dumb. something never seems dumb if it is not dumb."
it <- did you see a he/she here??? i didnt see and these words dont belong to me, "it seems dumb" is word of
Biiditchoun ,HE told to blibli dungeon mechanics about tactical strategy. he said you should play with this dumb style in this dungeon because of its dumb mechanic. so how you can judge me about someone's word??? i just told if it is dumb, it is, "it never seems". you see any attack??
About Rogue is stronger than elio.

shyvanillacra - Most of elio’s spell are useless without 2 portals and in-line of the target of favo
shyvanillacra -Elio does far less damage than other classes without portal, and its damage is normal as others with portals in general. That’s why portals are not counted as other summons
ELIO DOES LESS DAMAGE than other classes without portal.
it is not important you said it or not ,Ankama tagged that Rogue has got DAMAGE sign.

Spoiler (click here to show spoiler)

(You, YOU ALL look i did word play if i want.)

You told without portal elio's spell is useless and inline but they are better in close combat and distance, at least you can position your targets everytime,thats why i told about fire and earth ranges,elio has got no element limits in CC or distance. 
I CAN TELL SIMILAR THING "WITHOUT BOMBS" ,ROGUE IS NOT STRONGER

AND YOU ARE REPEATEDLY TELLING ME SHAME ON YOU,shame on for what?? have you ever seen a word like "Shame on you" from me that i told to anyone??


about agree word, if you are not %100agreed with someone's idea  ,you should reply as "i dont  agree your idea..." would be better.. 
 
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First of all, you are in confusing, because summon and mechanism are different.
Basically, they are working "like" summon, but they are in different cartegorization in this game development.

Bomb, beacon ... etc = summon
Trap, glyph, potral ... etc = mechanism

You can't insist summon and mechanism should be on the same line.

1.

JonTurk|2019-12-09 14:25:55
@shyvanillacra
debuff other classes?? where did i tell it?? i just told why bosses have got "summon remove"  and why this summon removal is not working same for every classses? and why there is no limits on bosses about mob summoning?  these are my questions,   
 

Hmm? Really? Where? I kindly found the words you told. Because you don't even remember what you typed.
I just picked one example of your mentions.

JonTurk|2019-12-04 23:02:21

will you still guard elio's portal is not a summon not to be deleted by bosses ??   
 
 

Portal is not a summon, but better to be called as a mechanism.

But in general, summon and mechanism are a.k.a "summon" term, or called as "summon," because it makes sense in English.
Like, "Summon a portal here" = "Setup a portal here" = "Cast a portal here" are all technically have same meaning in this game.

If you are not good at English, that is your problem.
 
People who can speak and read English properly may read your sentence,
"will you still guard elio's portal is not a summon not to be deleted by bosses ??",
as = 'Elio's portal is a summon that should be deleted by bosses.'


'Elio's portal is a summon that should be deleted by bosses.'
We call it "NERF" in English. Is that clear?
Wasn't that what you meant?
It is your problem. Whether you purposedly made the sentence or not, we only see the maden result.


You also mentioned, cra's beacon, sram's trap, and feca's glyph in the same cartegory; which is wrong cartegorization.
JonTurk|2019-12-09 14:25:55
you cant judge me with words that i have never told it!
 

Yes, I can judge you. Because you told it. Want to see the next one?


2.
 
JonTurk|2019-12-09 14:25:55
second; where did i attack a forum player with my words ,you should prove it!
 

Here we go!
JonTurk|2019-11-28 22:57:11

(a screenshot of personal messages in-game Wakfu)

it seems really dumb. something never seems dumb if it is not dumb.

 

Wow... x3 dumb in a single row? Such an insulting!
And the next one is the evidence of your attacking me.

3.
JonTurk|2019-12-09 14:25:55

you said me elio is weak than rogue in attacks and dungeons
 

Nope, I've never said that.
 
shyvanillacra|2019-12-06 08:51:06

Elio does far less damage than other classes without portal, and its damage is normal as others with portals in general.  
 

See? I don't said "elio is weak than rogue in attacks and dungeons,"
I said the condition (without portal), and used the word "than other classes."

shyvanillacra|2019-12-06 08:51:06

Some classes have to prepared much more than others.

For example, my elio has 5.2k mastery without any trick, but I cannot hit better than 4.3k iop in SUP charged.   
 

The only example I used was not even a rogue.
It was a comparison between 4.3k random iop and my 5.2k elio.
Now can you tell me where did I tell you "elio is weak than rogue in attacks and dungeons," huh?
 
JonTurk|2019-12-09 14:25:55
btw i never tell lie for a even it is a game.
 

Don't lie, you liar.
Guess who attack someone without provement? Wow... it was YOU!
You are the one who judged others without fact.

SHAME ON YOU.


4.
JonTurk|2019-12-09 14:25:55

if you have got same idea with me why are you against me with you last post??   
 

How did you know I have "SAME" idea with yours?
shyvanillacra|2019-12-06 08:51:06

I know that rogues have really wrong design so far, there’s no doubt about it.  
 

I rarely said "I have SAME idea with someone," on writing, because it is not good word to use in writing. Ofc I usually use that word in "offline" folk talks. But not in writing.
The using of word "SAME" may come up with large trouble in writing. That is common sense!


And I also found your problem here.
You don't know how to read the sentence properly.
When people said, "Agree with your ideas," it doesn't mean they agree with you 100%
"Agree with your ideas" basically means showing "partial agreement" or "basically agreement" before the speaker says the condition.
And I didn't say such a stuff.


5.
JonTurk|2019-12-09 14:25:55

Just read first post of Sirpercedal than i just invited him to play with me to prove his tactical knowledge but "ignored" and told me im noob ,causes ??  
 

I don't cover up Percy's mentioning, because I don't know what you guys told in personal messages.
But I'd like to say that alot players already have given you advices as much as they can, and you kicked them all.
And as Percy said, other players are not your personal trainer.


6. Typical exaggeration and lying.
JonTurk|2019-12-09 14:25:55

you said me elio is weak than rogue in attacks and dungeons, i showed you the direct base damage. of course i know you need wp to cast clash but it will give you endless Exalted turn and every calm will give you 2-3 wp regen.  
 

1) "you said me elio is weak than rogue in attacks and dungeons,"
   - Fake. I already prove I've never said that.
 
2) "i showed you the direct base damage."
   - So what? You want to say rogue is weaker than elio?
   - As I proved, I don't said that elio is weaker than rogue.
   - That sentence is only in your head.

3) "of course i know you need wp to cast clash but it will give you endless Exalted turn and every calm will give you 2-3 wp regen."
  - Do you know what you are talking about? You are trying to teach me how to play elio, my professional area, while you don't even understand others' advice about rogue on you? LOL
  - You said that "it will give you endless Exalted turn," "and every calm will give you 2-3 wp regen."
 - "Endless exalt" turn doesn't mean those exalt turns have "SAME" condition for everyturn.
 - It is common knowledge for elio player that exalt power decreases during its 2nd turns. And you called it "Endless exalt"? LMAO
 - Now I get you know few about elio's mechanism.


7.

JonTurk|2019-12-09 14:25:55

you may know better these classes than me but it seems other players are unaware while giving me tactical knowledge. so you should tell them whaats wrong by replying them, "not to me".  
 

Can someone translate these in proper English sentence? The only thing I can understand is "you may know better these classes than me".

If it means, I, shyvanilla have to explain the reason why it is wrong with him?
If so, I think I already explained in full of quotation.
You told them the fake, and tried to attack someone with wrong quotation, and even called someone who tried to help you, dumb.

8.

JonTurk|2019-12-09 14:25:55

and about ranges, rogue has got no close combat spells in fire  and all earth attacks are area.
Only close combat attack is air and execution (2 ap) and it is being the worse if  target has got high air resistance and lock.more bombs is less survival chance for rogues.  
 

Why do you explain this? You don't have to do. I already know all things you explained.
I said, I have rogue, which is on high dungeon ladder board.

JonTurk|2019-12-09 14:25:55

and you should compare the rogue passives with elio and probably everyone likes it.  
 

And you don't have to compare passives with other classes.



Should I show the magic sentences which makes your words more pathetic?

You should compare the rogue passives with feca and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with osa and probably everyone likes it.

You should compare the rogue passives with enu and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with sram and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with xelor and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with eca and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with eni and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with iop and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with cra and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with sadi and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with sac and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with panda and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with old rogue and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with masq and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with ougi and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with fogger and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with elio and probably everyone likes it.
You should compare the rogue passives with hupper and probably everyone likes it.

WOW EVERYONE PROBABLY LIKES IT.

It will lead you to the conclusion of nothing but every classes should have all same passives with different names.
Because nothing can be truely determined as "equal" until then.
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Why do you revise your word repeatedly?
If you are so proud of your words, don’t revise it “after” someone pointed out that wrong.
You don’t accept the mistakes you did as I proved them, and try to decieve others with erasing your previous mistake.
That is already shame action.

How do you make quotaion from my words “before” I made the replying?
That is already such a deceiving movement.

You lost all my respect for now.
Because you didn’t accept your mistakes and tried to revise your past replayings for defending, which is wrong way to correct your mistake.

I don’t revise my word after you pointed out some of my mistakes, but you did.

I feel sorry for my making mistakes,
but it is true that you constantly revise your words on your original replying.
Word playing?
That is not word playing.
You repeatedly said like ‘it is not important to what I say,’ and I mocked your attitude in several replyings in a row.
How do you feel? Want to look at the mirror?

If you want to persuade someone else, throw out that agressive attitude.

And if you revise your past replying and not add new one,
no one can read what you said.
Is that clear?

I didn’t write “agree” words in my original replying (not a added one) here, but wrote a specific sentence I feel about rogue. Is that clear?

I feel sorry for rogue, but that doesn’t mean I agree with your whole suggestions.

Plus, mechanism and summon, those are not word playing. Those are official words once introduced by devs.

I made mistakes, and you also made mistakes of not making words clear.
Is that clear?
If you don’t accept this, no more useless talk.
Revising your past replying doesn’t showed up to others.
No one would see you’ve done or not.

I know rogue has hard time in normal playing.
You know what?
Few players want to play with rogue, because they know it is torturing.
I’m not your personal trainer but you can get better skills with practicing in random condition, which is the most important part in playing rogue-like classes.
You don’t have time to think, but have to do the best movement you can do in 30 seconds.

We can do at least hunting high level arch monsters if you want.
Feel free to contact me thru in-game or discord Shyvanilla#1778.
I rarely see the forum. Today was just special.

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erase what?? i didnt erase any post or something.
You said that im agressive on players but no proof of it.. 

btw im not crying for rogues , i only want some debuff on speciality of bosses if they have got limitless mob support otherwise fix some passive order of some classes for these dungeons otherwise some survival ability by removing "summon remove" spell of bosses for ALS mode. 

you can play or try with a team or with a multiclient boss room over and over again but ihave got no multi account or a team and i cant force anyone to play in als mode with me ,playing boss room in solo causes over 30 min. or more for solo group from stratch. understood? 

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Aight, then suffer underneath no light deep sea as usual.

This game is all about team playing, but you kicked off all helping hands.
Can you tell you cannot get a team while you don’t have any trouble with others? Then it’s communities’ problem.
However, you do have problems with other players in here, and that’s why there are some players who make fun of you.

As everyone can see, you haven’t farm gears for ALS and want better result. That’s the reason why you can’t get a team. Even if you got a team once, they won’t hang along with you later because you don’t meet the basic rule of give and take.
If you want to ask something to others, you also have to meet the condition they want for you.
I know some dungeons are really tricky and hard, but there are alot of players who really enjoy current ALS dungeons without big issues.

But see yourself.
You are just yelling to no one: you have no team, you have no ALS gears, and you want to finish high stasis dungeons.

Even though many players agree with the concepts of dungeon mechanism are out of sense, you can’t say that without preparing.

Can you say you are fully prepared for ALS?
No? Then you can’t say dungeon mechanisms are broken, because there’re many players who have rogue in party have really good time in dungeons.

Basically, high stasis ALS mode is designed for challenging. That fact has been officially announced many times.

You can’t say dungeon is broken while you play solo. That is out of sense.

As Percy pointed out, you are just making examples of extreme situation.

You want to do something and get a better rewards with help from others without investing?
We call that “leeching.”
You don’t think so?
But it is so. Others are just so kind that they don’t say it in direct way.
What you want to do is just leeching.
Nobody want to be leeched by someone.

I don’t say things like “you have to join active guild.”
You have to accept the reality. You are kicking off every possibilities. You are introuble because of your action.
There are few players who have willingness to help you more than once, because we know you always act like crying baby.
You may say no.

You are saying you don’t complain with rogue. But that is exact thing you have done so far.

You are just not ready to play ALS.
That’s all.

You are the one who need help.
Then how about acting like who need help?

You geared? No? Then farm gears with your hands. You may don’t have to get in a team to farm in low level’s s31 dungeons in real level with one character. After that, ask others to help you high stasis ALS, then you will be welcomed.

You don’t have gear pages for ALS?
Then, sorry about that.
There’s nothing to say but I kindly suggest you to buy some pages for yourself.
You don’t want to buy it?
No problem with itself, I don’t blame your decision, but stop acting like a crying baby then.

You can’t blame ankama’s game design of this part.
This game has given you really generous condition of F2P as much as possible. But only ask you to buy something little for running this game company.

You cannot say something broken with extremely biased examples, without preparing gears.
Even if players mainly agree with your ideas of saying dungeon mechanisms are out of sense, that doesn’t mean it is possible to change the mechanism in a day.

As Percy pointed out on my replying (sorry to call you again), erasing summons on each 7th turn mechanism is there for preventing summon blocking exploits which had been really famous before stasis effect patch. There’s no better way than holding this mechanism so far in technically possible range.

I think I have been known for toxic talking and complaing on this game design, on wakfu discord. But not like you.
You don’t even prepare enough to complain about something.
It is not because of you are relatively new player, but you are acting like you see other players like NPC who don’t have thought, but you know everything.
You don’t even try to adapt a little hard things which are evils of neccesary in this game.

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