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Re: Random info on lock

By Szega July 10, 2013, 12:56:00
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Score : 12801

Can someone compare dofus maps and wakfu maps please?

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Hudski|2013-07-11 15:23:50
Kikuihimonji|2013-07-11 09:53:58
Talking that it is fair when you play class that doesn't need to bother with dodge/lock like Sadida with Gust is selfish, my dear Hudski. And i also play Sadida but i see problem that ranged classes are facing.

Before my Sadida, I played an Eniripsa, and the entire time I was wishing that I had the Dofus dodging mechanics. Now we're finally getting it and you don't want it because Cras have minimum range? That's the strangest and most abstract complaint I have ever heard.

You're about to go through this life-changing update for the first time and I sincerely hope that you stop complaining long enough to genuinely enjoy it when it finally lands. The last thing this forum needs is more party poopers.
I didn't said i don't want it. Read again dude. I said i want it because its better then what we have now. It's sure an improvement for the gameplay but its not the perfect solution and therefore it should be better then what we have in dofus. That's what i am saying so don't twist my words. The last thing this forum needs is more people speaking without understanding what other people have said.
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Hudski|2013-07-11 15:23:50
Kikuihimonji|2013-07-11 09:53:58
Talking that it is fair when you play class that doesn't need to bother with dodge/lock like Sadida with Gust is selfish, my dear Hudski. And i also play Sadida but i see problem that ranged classes are facing.

Here's the thing.

I have been through this announcement before. It happened to me while I was playing Dofus - an Osamodas, in fact, which has zero natural abilities that can be used to escape lock (Boar is after the turn, and thus useless). Do you know what I thought about this change?

"Now my summons won't be able to make monsters skip turns. This is unfair. This change is stupid!"

Boy was I wrong.

My summons force enemies to rip chunks out of their own AP and MP. Before, the monster either reached me or got locked. Now, the enemy loses a specific amount of AP/MP and will never reach me because I'm capable of seeing how far it will be able to move after ripping itself off of my summons.

And on the flipside, instead of being able to escape an enemy or being trapped by it, I had the option of ripping myself away from lock. So not only was I able to predict and practically mock any monster in the universe, I could also escape them - just by walking. An option that I had never had before.

As a character that was completely helpless to being locked, this mechanic change literally breathed new life into the game for me.

Before my Sadida, I played an Eniripsa, and the entire time I was wishing that I had the Dofus dodging mechanics. Now we're finally getting it and you don't want it because Cras have minimum range? That's the strangest and most abstract complaint I have ever heard.

You're about to go through this life-changing update for the first time and I sincerely hope that you stop complaining long enough to genuinely enjoy it when it finally lands. The last thing this forum needs is more party poopers.

I'm with Hudski on this. The change is nothing but good.
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Let's just agree that current system is not good and that any change will make it better.

[...]
And now that i think about it i wonder what will happen to Sadida doll's with their broken AI that makes them change targets for unknown reasons - and they sometime send being locked instead of attacking... if they loose even 1 AP then it doesnt matter if they moved or not, or it might even be worse if they will block the way to other doll who could move in their place to where they moved and actually attack... I can see even more complains from summoner Sadidas coming with this change if they won't fix Doll's AI.

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Kikuihimonji|2013-07-11 09:53:58
The 50% ratio *snip*
It's really not that easy to catch up to ranged people. Sometimes to the point where you just lose so much AP/MP/WP that you can't do much at all.

Have you ever played as Cra? *snip*
I've played as a Cra, Iop, Sac, Enu. All near max, all top geared. Cras are fine. You rarely use too many resources to gain range to shoot someone. The only situation in which that happens a lot is the one you constantly come right back to: 1v1 vs melee. And I still win a lot of those fights, because 2 ap is cheap.

It's not even about small maps. It's about the fact that once melee character get to ranged one, the ranged one will keep loosing AP/MP for not doing dmg to do anything. In simple example: cra without WP vs iop without WP *snip*
Jump costs WP, and only gives you 2 tiles. SIP doesn't do much if you're not fire, and costs 5 (!) AP. Charge costs 4 AP 1 MP, has low damage and requires a target.
If you managed to get yourself stuck on the wall wedged in between it and an iop with 0 WP left, you did something horribly wrong. This has never happened to me as cra or iop.

Talking that it is fair when you play class that doesn't need to bother with dodge/lock like Sadida with Gust is selfish, my dear Hudski. And i also play Sadida but i see problem that ranged classes are facing.
I don't play Sadi, but I play Cra, and that is one class that does not need to bother with dodge/lock at all. They have so many ways to escape it, it's ludicrous.

It really feels like I'm wasting my breath (figuratively). I've rarely been met with so much straight up denial in a discussion. Regardless of what is said, you're repeating the exact same thing with no counter-argument. I'm baffled.

I need a break from these forums. This is not healthy. :wacko:
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Icekin|2013-07-12 10:40:02
Kikuihimonji|2013-07-11 09:53:58
The 50% ratio *snip*
It's really not that easy to catch up to ranged people. Sometimes to the point where you just lose so much AP/MP/WP that you can't do much at all.

Have you ever played as Cra? *snip*
I've played as a Cra, Iop, Sac, Enu. All near max, all top geared. Cras are fine. You rarely use too many resources to gain range to shoot someone. The only situation in which that happens a lot is the one you constantly come right back to: 1v1 vs melee. And I still win a lot of those fights, because 2 ap is cheap.

It's not even about small maps. It's about the fact that once melee character get to ranged one, the ranged one will keep loosing AP/MP for not doing dmg to do anything. In simple example: cra without WP vs iop without WP *snip*
Jump costs WP, and only gives you 2 tiles. SIP doesn't do much if you're not fire, and costs 5 (!) AP. Charge costs 4 AP 1 MP, has low damage and requires a target.
If you managed to get yourself stuck on the wall wedged in between it and an iop with 0 WP left, you did something horribly wrong. This has never happened to me as cra or iop.

Talking that it is fair when you play class that doesn't need to bother with dodge/lock like Sadida with Gust is selfish, my dear Hudski. And i also play Sadida but i see problem that ranged classes are facing.
I don't play Sadi, but I play Cra, and that is one class that does not need to bother with dodge/lock at all. They have so many ways to escape it, it's ludicrous.

It really feels like I'm wasting my breath (figuratively). I've rarely been met with so much straight up denial in a discussion. Regardless of what is said, you're repeating the exact same thing with no counter-argument. I'm baffled.

I need a break from these forums. This is not healthy. :wacko:
Maybe instead read the last post i wrote (not this) because you keep coming back to one thing that was mentioned some time ago and was already been discussed, commented, criticized. No point to going back to that. You say cra will be fine and you play a cra, therefore if you like it to be this way i won't interupt your happiness from the expectation from this system.
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Hudski|2013-07-11 06:27:00
Hi, I play a Sadida.

Even when I have an 80% chance to dodge a character, I still cast Gust to escape, because it's a 20% chance of losing my turn completely. This is stupid.

Now, I can lose 20% of my AP (2 ap) and 20% of my MP (1 mp) to escape.

I can either take my turn as 10/5 in lock, 8/4 out of lock, or 7/5 out of lock.

Some examples assuming the formula was
"percentage of AP/MP remaining after dodge = (dodge+2) / (2 x (lock + 2))"

Whispered Crackler, lvl.100, 130 lock.
To dodge them with 80% you need 190 dodge.
(190 + 2)/(2x (130 + 2) = 72%... (you would loose ~30% of your ap and mp)

Northern Guard, lvl.109, 210 lock.
-> 80% dodge = 270 dodge for your char
(270 + 2) / (2x (210 +2)) = 64%

Northern Guard, lvl.109, 210 lock.
-> 50% dodge = 210 dodge for your char
(210 + 2) / (2x (210 +2)) = 50%

Northern Guard, lvl.109, 210 lock.
190 dodge for your char = 30% dodge
(190 + 2) / (2x (210 +2)) = 45%

At last on lower levles:
Gobbal War Chief, lvl.20, 10 lock
lvl.20 player with 22 dodge (even over 50 dodge are possible on lvl.20) -> 60% dodge chance
(20 + 2)/(2x (10 + 2)) = 100% (you could dodge without loosing anything)

As always it does not scale well with the level. For low levels they could simply adjust all the monsters lock and dodge values... (Tons of work though)
Whats more: for higher lock it becomes excessively more difficult to dodge because you need double the block value as dodge to come out without loss. (400 lock = impossible 800 dodge. atm you would only need 495 dodge for 95% chance)

In fact i like the old system because it really "blocks" you (keeps you in place).
But the criteria for this block and it ending your turn is bad.
In my opinion instead of ending the turn you should only loose your MPs (or a part of them) and be "stabilized" until you finish your turn.

But well, for me its not a up or downgrade but mainly a change. I can live with both. And I will curse either while beeing locked biggrin
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Schildbuerger|2013-07-13 18:42:17
Hudski|2013-07-11 06:27:00
Hi, I play a Sadida.

Even when I have an 80% chance to dodge a character, I still cast Gust to escape, because it's a 20% chance of losing my turn completely. This is stupid.

Now, I can lose 20% of my AP (2 ap) and 20% of my MP (1 mp) to escape.

I can either take my turn as 10/5 in lock, 8/4 out of lock, or 7/5 out of lock.

Some examples assuming the formula was
"percentage of AP/MP remaining after dodge = (dodge+2) / (2 x (lock + 2))"

Whispered Crackler, lvl.100, 130 lock.
To dodge them with 80% you need 190 dodge.
(190 + 2)/(2x (130 + 2) = 72%... (you would loose ~30% of your ap and mp)

Northern Guard, lvl.109, 210 lock.
-> 80% dodge = 270 dodge for your char
(270 + 2) / (2x (210 +2)) = 64%

Northern Guard, lvl.109, 210 lock.
-> 50% dodge = 210 dodge for your char
(210 + 2) / (2x (210 +2)) = 50%

Northern Guard, lvl.109, 210 lock.
190 dodge for your char = 30% dodge
(190 + 2) / (2x (210 +2)) = 45%

At last on lower levles:
Gobbal War Chief, lvl.20, 10 lock
lvl.20 player with 22 dodge (even over 50 dodge are possible on lvl.20) -> 60% dodge chance
(20 + 2)/(2x (10 + 2)) = 100% (you could dodge without loosing anything)

As always it does not scale well with the level. For low levels they could simply adjust all the monsters lock and dodge values... (Tons of work though)
Whats more: for higher lock it becomes excessively more difficult to dodge because you need double the block value as dodge to come out without loss. (400 lock = impossible 800 dodge. atm you would only need 495 dodge for 95% chance)

In fact i like the old system because it really "blocks" you (keeps you in place).
But the criteria for this block and it ending your turn is bad.
In my opinion instead of ending the turn you should only loose your MPs (or a part of them) and be "stabilized" until you finish your turn.

But well, for me its not a up or downgrade but mainly a change. I can live with both. And I will curse either while beeing locked biggrin
Exactly. However instead of removing MP simply make locked people unable to use MP to move (something like Lead Legs state) but without stabilization (and make it still possible to use spells with MP in cost). Wich means it will be just impossible for the person to dodge in that turn but it won't loose turn. This will make people try to dodge all the time, wich might be good if one of the classes have the ability to get dmg boost when it lock someone (iop has it?).
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